The Poor of the USA - Why?

[Borincano]

Why do you think that many ethnicities don't do as well in the USA as a whole than other ethnicites? Why do you think that after hundreds of years African-Americans and Latinos in the USA are still the poorest in the country? Do you think it's oppression or a refusal to change as a community? Do you think it's, because the economic system in the USA is favorable to whites only? Do you think the gov't has done enough? What do you think needs to be done to raise these people's living and educational standards?

[Eastside Revolt]

Listen to Pink Floyd's "The Wall" (many times), and you'll realize why shit is that way.

[Anarcho]

In my opinion, the US gov't has done as much as humanely possible for the poor minorities in the country. Anything else and it starts to become a reverse racism problem.

The problem, IMO, is that there is a culture of victimhood associated with being a minority in certain areas of the country. Until people are willing to step up, and take responsibiliy for themselves, the problem is not going to go away.

[YerbaMateJ]

It is a systemic problem. This country was founded on slavery, sex and gender discrimination, and Indian genocide. In the scheme of things, those things did not happen that long ago. A couple hundred years is a drop in the bucket in the area of time. Hell, civil rights movement happened in my parent's lifetime. It takes a long time for long ingrained, systemic problems such as racism, sexism, and classism to go away. Yes, people of color and other "ethnic" groups have come a long way in America. But the power is still in just a few hands. I mean--- look at what most of the American politicians look like. Mostly white anglos.

Poverty and why it is more prevalent in some groups more than other groups is a complicated issue. There is a fantastic textbook I can recommend that has great information on this subject. It is called "Social Problems: A Critical Power-Conflict Perspective." The author's last name is Feagin. Look for it in half.com...You can probably get it for real cheap. I have the 5th Edition, but I'm sure any addition would be fine.

This book "looks critically at the often hidden roots of social problems in exploitive, discriminatory, and alienating social institutions." (Feagin)

YMj:biggrin:

(Edited by YerbaMateJ at 9:36 am on April 3, 2003)

[praxis1966]

IMO Yerba is mostly right, but stops short of the real problem. In this country, the socio-economic elites operate on the all encompassing assumption that the measure of one's humanity is the quantity of property he owns.

By this logic minorities, such as and especially black, whose poverty level population is a large percentage, are viewed as subhuman. The 3/5 law is alive and well in this country. As a result, these minorites have been largely relegated to positions in the workplace which the management and ownership feel befits a person seen as no better than livestock.

Also, the elites have have done and will do anything to preserve their own hegemony. The divide and conquer tactic is probably the best example. Culturally speaking, the governing whites have been extremely effective in the past at convincing proletarian whites that African-Americans, Jews, Catholics, homosexuals and others are responsible for such poor whites station in life. There are many millions more (although the percentage segment of their overall racial/ethnic group is among the smallest) poor whites than other groups. They are then kept busy with misdirected hostility rather than the objectification, trend analysis and unification with others of similar station that Paolo Friere describes as essential for mutual liberation. This hate is then handed down to successive generations as some sort of poisonous heirloom, affecting countless generations to come.

The problem is an offshoot of classism, the most pervasive and detrimental of all the limit situations Friere discusses.

[AntiCapitalistica]

I think that black-americans should form a front against racism, there's time for a new Martin Luther King.

But after all, racism is part of the American way of life

[mentalbunny]

I don't think it should be just black americans, AC, it should be all americans, blacks, hispanics, asians, white, who are against racism. Just blacks and you aren't really going to get anywhere, it'll just scare the whiteys.

[Wolfie]

The scream of capital drowns out the voice of the poor in the US, in other words, they need a voice.

[Political Suicide]

This is from the movie Traffic, it goes something like this.

"everyday you have thousands of white people going into black communities asking "can i score some drugs, can i score some drugs?". Imagine the effect that has on their psyche. I guarentee you that if a hundred black guys went into your neighborhood asking "can i score some drugs, can i score some drugs?", in a few days everyone would be dealing. No one would be going to fucking law school."

Racism hasn't gone away and neither has stereotypes, until they dimish, the white majority will always be one step ahead of us.

[Hampton]

The majority of drug sellers and users are white people, but you wouldn't notice it because of the numer of blacks who go to jail for petty drug sales is ridiculous. (http://droptherock.org/)

[Umoja]

Definately, Drugs are one of the greatest enemies of the minority communities, and nations as a whole. It's a double stab. First the drugs sap away money, second they allow minorities to be convicted of crimes. Very, very bad.

The race problem in the US is pretty bad, but a single leader isn't going to change anything.... sadly. He'll just be killed, something has to hit America like a metor for stuff to really start moving.

[YerbaMateJ]

Quote: from mentalbunny on 6:09 pm on April 3, 2003
I don't think it should be just black americans, AC, it should be all americans, blacks, hispanics, asians, white, who are against racism. Just blacks and you aren't really going to get anywhere, it'll just scare the whiteys.


Hee hee!!!! That was funny.

YMj:biggrin:

[YerbaMateJ]

Quote: from Hampton on 10:19 pm on April 3, 2003
The majority of drug sellers and users are white people, but you wouldn't notice it because of the numer of blacks who go to jail for petty drug sales is ridiculous. (http://droptherock.org/)




You wouldn't know that the majority of dealers were white if you judged by the movies you see here in the u$.

YMj

(Edited by YerbaMateJ at 12:32 am on April 4, 2003)

[redstar2000]

"In my opinion the U.S. government has done as much as humanly possible for the poor minorities in this country." :confused:

Anarcho, that's an absurd statement! Compared to what could be done, the U.S. government hasn't done squat! :angry:

"Anything else and it starts to become a reverse racism problem."

No, Anarcho. Now if you made white people into slaves for 300 years and then made white people undergo severe segregation and lynchings for another 100 years, THEN you'd have "reverse racism."

"The problem, IMO, is that there is a culture of victimhood associated with being a minority in certain areas of the country."

You know, Ararcho, I've been curious for a long time about why that phrase--"culture of victimhood"--is thought to be some kind of "refutation" of the claims of minorities for recompense.

To put it crudely, if people say "we've been fucked for 400 years...now it's time for payback!", in what way is that a "culture" and not a simple statement of fact?

"Until people are willing to step up and take responsibility for themselves, the problem is not going to go away."

What does that mean, Anarcho, in practical terms? The problem with "conservative cliches" like "take personal responsibility" is that they have no definite meaning...perhaps they are designed that way.

To understand them, you have to "fill in the blanks"...with phrases that are rarely uttered in polite company these days (at least while the cameras are on).

What do you, Anarcho, think "taking personal responsibility" actually means?

I'm really curious on this one.

:cool:

[timbaly]

Another problem is having babies while still in school. It distracts you from your studies. There is also a high percentage of births out of wedlock. Around 54% of black children are actually born out of wedlock, I believe it was around 38% in 1984. But the increase in births out of wedlock is on the rise for every single race and we know that this situation cause economic problems.

[Umoja]

These kids should be in church! That's why! Go to church kids, or else you'll mystically get pregnant!

[YerbaMateJ]

Quote: from Umoja on 3:41 am on April 4, 2003
These kids should be in church! That's why! Go to church kids, or else you'll mystically get pregnant!

That one was meant to bate you, Redstar2000!

YMj:biggrin:

[hazard]

america's problem is their historical basis in slavery, that carries over into the modern era

the capitalists of the seventeenth century had their income based upon a slave market that was comprised exclusively of racial minorities. when the capitalist civil war began, the losing side, those who used slaves as the means of production, had their means revoked by the "liberation" of the slaves. of course, paying these same people to do the same work basically cost the southern capitalists the same. all one has to do is factor in the costs of living versus the costs of owning.

anyway, the attitudes NEVER changed because the status NEVER changed. slavery still exists and is still based upon racial lines. only the word slavery was truly outlawed. only the whites think they weren't ever slaves. actually, they have always been slaves but because their owners called them free they believed otherwise. morons. as such, even the white slaves carry racist ideas regarding former "slaves" descendents. it is the thoughts of their capitalist owners that predominate all of their affairs. from having to work to what to eat, what to drive, and also what to think of in regards to other races.

[ChiTown Lady]

This phenomenon that continues to show primarily white males in upper echelon potions of business and government has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that the diving force of the oppressive movement Globally is the Multibillion-dollar Corporate Conglomerates which are also owned almost exclusively by white males. It’s the trickle down affect from that perspective – in my view and from what I see.

At the same time, I also see many many homeless and hungry white males and females, as well as blacks – but I don’t seem to see homeless Latinos or Asians begging for money to eat (nearly as much here) – and I live in a major city – Chicago. Why is that – I wonder? Maybe the sense of family and taking care of your own is stronger in the Latino and Asian communities than it is in the American white and black. I was just thinking and also wondering about that just now – because this has also been an observation of mine - here.

But it is true that most of the rich and powerful in this Capitalist place are white males – this is true, and they seem to be a very elite clique type group as far as I can see. It is also true that there are many poor and homeless white people and many many poor and homeless black people – I see it EVERY DAY in the streets of this city.

The people with the most money seem to dictate who will profit and who will suffer – and the people with the most money seem to be white males (with a few exception of course). But NOT all white males and/or female are of this elite group – please don’t make the mistake of thinking that if a person is white they are inherently of THIS elite group, because this is so VERY far from the truth.

It is an issue having more to do with the Multibillion-dollar Capitalist Conglomerates who have bought and also are embedded within the government of the United States than anything else. They have been in control since the beginning, dating back to the beginning of the country when these power influences took over the natural resources of many Latin American countries with the United Fruit Company. This problem has been growing over the years and these same people have been taking over any and every natural resource they can possibly get their hand on everywhere on the map – even in the way of cheap slave labor forces – which also impacts the US citizens who would have otherwise filled those types of jobs here.

And this VERY problem also extends itself overseas even in the case of Iraq and why the US is dropping bombs on the Iraqi people. And the Capitalist Corporate owned media as well as the fact that we now have a few well placed black people on our government’s high authority positions - this has created a situation here where there seems to be a united front here AGAINST the Arab-Islamic people as a whole. It is amazing the way even the historically oppressed people’s of this country will rally against another people for superficial and unfounded reasons in the name of power and the hopes that they will be accepted by the masters of the Capitalist movement!!! This movement against the Islamic-Arabs and the attitudes that I am seeing now being expounded by Blacks as well as White, Latinos, Jews etc. in this realm specifically makes me nauseous.

It’s all ALWAYS about getting MORE money for the elitists Capitalists who already have way too much and Fuck The Rest Of US – be we White, Black, Brown, or Fucking Purple with Pink Pokadots!!! Once we ALL get a clue as to that point – the better off we will all be.

[Anarcho]

Taking responsibility. Well, to be honest, it's sort of hard to put into words. But I'm going to try.

I see it all the time. People that live in the ghetto talking about how "the man" is keeping them down. Going at great lengths about how "the system" is designed to keep them from getting a good job, or keeps them working in minimum wage jobs.

I think it's bullshit. If you are willing to work, and do the things you are supposed to do, you can better yourself. But far to often I see people doing drugs, which keeps them from being able to get better paying jobs (for good reason) and then saying it's the business's fault for not hiring them. Or doing things like dealing drugs or other illegal activities, simply because it's easier to make money that way. Then when they get arrested, it's because the "racist/classist system" oppressed them.

It's crap. Don't do drugs. Nobody is forced to do them. Don't commit crimes. It's easy to avoid that pitfall. Those two things alone, I fear, are what keep the majority of the ghetto, in the ghetto.

I was raised white trash, welfare mom and government cheese. I will not be that person again, and I will kill or die to keep my kids from knowing that life. And that means I work hard at my job, even if the hours suck and I'm not payed as much as I would hope. It means I don't go breaking people to make extra money on the side, so that I don't end up going to jail.

It means I don't do drugs, because to get a better job, I have to pass a drug test.

Anyone that says the "system" is keeping them down isn't trying hard enough.

[Umoja]

That sounds like the American dream Anarcho.

[redstar2000]

"Taking personal responsibility means

1. Willingness to work.

2. Do the things you are supposed to do.

3. Don't do drugs.

4. Don't deal drugs or [do] other illegal activities."

Well, Anarcho, that sounds simple enough...though point 2 is a little vague. The problem with your formula, at least all the parts relating to illegal drugs, is that as far as is known, the use and distribution of illegal drugs is about the same across all "racial" or ethnic/cultural groups.

And yet we find that black people are what...seven times as likely to be arrested for possession or dealing, being sent to prison for longer terms, etc. than white people for the same offenses? I would expect a similar ratio for Hispanics, though perhaps not quite as disproportionate.

But you see what I'm getting at? Something like 15% of the American population--all groups--use or distribute illegal drugs...but it's the minorities that get arrested and go to prison in wildly disproportionate numbers.

Is it because us white folks make "better, smarter" criminals? :cheesy:

From what I've seen in life, minorities work much harder than most white people...and for less money. If you are crowded into the really shitty low-paying jobs, you actually need a greater desire to work than if your next likely job is going to be pretty easy. I'll grant you that white collar offices are starting to bear a striking resemblence to 19th century sweatshops, minus the heavy labor. The 8-hour day is becoming a distant memory, like the $15,000 house or the $3,000 new car. And working at Wal-Mart sucks no matter what color you are.

But it seems to me that "willingness to work" does not seem to have much relationship to the outcome of one's life...if it were possible to trade some of that "willingness to work" for a "lighter" skin tone, many people would be well-advised to make the trade.

I note that you, Anarcho, are willing to "kill or die" (your words) to keep your kids from living in welfare poverty...does it not logically follow that you'd deal drugs if that's what it took to achieve the same objective?

While there are a small number of vicious evil people to be found in every ethnic group, the vast majority of those who resort to "criminal" behavior do so simply in order to survive at a somewhat higher level than they otherwise would. Can you blame them?

And the vast majority of "criminals" never get rich any more than the vast majority of workers do. Mostly they get to live in the "nicer" parts of the ghetto; only a few ever escape altogether.

"Anyone that says the system is keeping them down isn't trying hard enough."

This is one of the variations on the Great American Myth: whatever happens in your life, it's because of what you did or didn't do.

I cannot understand why people believe this kind of nonsense any more than I can understand why people believe in the "gods"...when a moment's thought or a passing glance at real life would dispel such illusions more or less instantly.

Consider this: some decades ago I went through a period of pretty intensive casino gambling. On those occasions when I won, I would leave the casino as "a master of the universe"...someone so sharp as to spot the casino's weakness and take advantage of it unlike all those losers who didn't want to win as much as I did and who weren't willing to study the games as much as I did. I took the credit for the wins. And, I took the losing occasions just as personally...it was my poor play that resulted in defeat.

In reality, the mindless fall of cards and dice decided 99% of the outcome always. So it is with life itself, I think. You can do X and avoid Y...but mindless chance rules.

As Fred Engels put it so long ago: "The laws of capitalism are the laws of chance."

:cool:


(Edited by redstar2000 at 11:51 am on April 5, 2003)


(Edited by redstar2000 at 11:55 am on April 5, 2003)

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Quote: from AntiCapitalistica on 12:54 pm on April 3, 2003
I think that black-americans should form a front against racism, there's time for a new Martin Luther King.

But after all, racism is part of the American way of life


By uniting in groups of race your not fighting racism but supporting racism.

Unite in anti-racists vs. racists.

[RancidGreenGlory]

United States has always had minorities living in poverty. Mainly because racists are in power, Day after day some new shit is coming in the news about it. Even surveys show that most people who apply to a job and are rejected is due to race or having a name used by a specific race. Although now blacks have a little more rights then before and could right away sue if discriminated. It comes down to latinos being the bottom of the food chain in USA. They are the "Slaves of the 21st century" Working many hours for minimum wage. Struggaling to survive yet so many racist cowards beat them with posses. Saying that Latino immigrants rob whites of their jobs! I say fuck all that bull shit no majority would ever wanna work from sun up to sun down in a hot Texas farm picking fruit. I belive what should be done is ALL Latinos should not go to work for a whole week. Breaking the economy of the USA even further then they will realise how much Latinos are needed. And about protests like those the great Martin Luther King Jr. Organized wont do shit anymore just look at the anti war protestors.

[Hampton]

Anyone that says the "system" is keeping them down isn't trying hard enough.

Tell that to Mumia.

[Anarcho]

*sigh*

There are exceptions to every rule.

However, anyone who thinks that only minorities are poor have never really looked around. I'm "white" and I grew up just as poor as any ghetto hood rat.

I rejected the drugs that had plauged my family. I worked hard to succeed in school, and now I work hard at my job. I've been offered illegal jobs that would make me a lot of money, but I turn them down because they are not safe, or because I find them morally repugnant.

It's not a matter of race. I've been called petty bourgie on this board before, even though I work hard to provide a better future for my kids than I had.

Nobody is forced to do drugs.

Drugs are the bane of the poor. I've seen it with my own eyes.

[Hampton]

You know what I love to do? Blame the victim.

Let's all give applause to the guy to pulled himelf up by his bootstraps to get out of the ghetto and is now able to look back at those people and piss on them because he did it and they can't.

Fuck that.

It's easy to tell people "Look at me I can do it, if you can't try harder." But in reality it's bullshit, there should not be and can't be some blanket expection of people in every situation. It's like telling the one legged man that he can be the next Pele and when he isn't calling him a failure because he din't try hard enough.

By the way "There are exceptions to every rule", well there are about a couple hundred exceptions to this rule.

(Edited by Hampton at 3:15 am on April 5, 2003)

[Anarcho]

A couple hundred out of the 10s of thousands of prisoners in the US prison system.

I'm not saying the system is perfect. It's obviously not. But too many people talk about how bad it is without coming up with other solutions.

And I don't piss on anyone. I just say that it's possible, if you work hard and stay the fuck out of drugs to make something of yourself, regardless of your origins.

You know what I love to do? Blame the system.

Let's all give applause to the guy who wallows in filth and depredation, sells crack to kids and gets single mothers knocked up and hooked on drugs. He may not be a model citizen, but he sure is sticking it to the Man by rejecting the system!

Fuck that.

[redstar2000]

To put it charitably, anarcho, you have a very 19th century view of things.

It was the fashion then to blame poverty in the slums of London and the industrial cities of northern England on the propensity of the poor to wallow in cheap gin, prostitution, and bastardy. It was suggested that only a revival of Christianity could hope to stem this rising tide of moral depravity.

We know, in fact, what sharply reduced the poverty of the English working class...the rise of strong and militant trade unions willing to fight, even violently, for major improvements. Behind this, there was always the dim threat of communist revolution...the 20th century British capitalists felt compelled to part with a portion of their wealth in order to save the rest, especially after World War II.

Sound familiar? The American working class had a strong trade union movement from 1935 to 1960...and the white working class climbed out of poverty. Some black industrial workers also benefited, but most black people were kept out of the good jobs by (pardon the expression) racism.

It is true that there are now a few more black and brown faces, especially black and brown female faces seen in the offices of America now...at the lower levels of course.

But, in general, minorities are poor in America now for the same reason that white people were poor in America in 1935 and white people were poor in England in 1844. There is no massive and militant trade union movement to force serious monetary concessions from the capitalist class.

"Crack" has no more to do with the matter now than "Gin" had to do with the matter in 1844. The problem is not one of moral depravity; it is the present weakness of the class itself that is responsible.

And this is changing, just as Marx would have predicted. Not long ago, there was a major strike of janitors in the Los Angeles area. There have been several strikes of custodial workers in the northeast. Minorities have slowly begun to realize that there is no substitute for class-based organizations; that two-year certificate from some crappy community college is not going to get you out of the ghetto...a really strong union will--or will give you enough money to make the ghetto a fit place to live.

I have no doubt, anarcho, that there are people--in and out of the ghetto--who have serious problems with drugs or alcohol. The evidence suggests that the overwhelming majority of people are quite able to use drugs and/or alcohol without fucking up their lives...except, of course, for the random disasters of official persecution.

But you don't have to be a drug user/dealer to suffer official persecution...see antieverything's thread on this page "Justice...long overdue." Just as you don't have to be a "terrorist" to be disappeared by the Bush regime...it could happen to you! All it takes is being the wrong person in the wrong place at the wrong time--and the wrong color..."the laws of capitalism are the laws of chance", remember?

But why, anarcho, do people use drugs at all? Think about that question. Could it possibly be that their lives are so grim and hopeless that drug-use is actually an improvement?

Use a little imagination, anarcho...and a little empathy.

:cool:

(Edited by redstar2000 at 12:40 pm on April 5, 2003)

[Umoja]

Wow, I agree with Redstar on something..... Oh shit... I gotta stop listening to him.