School Discipline

[VonClausewitz]

Discipline in schools - should it be the softly-softly approach championed by blairists and liberals alike, or should a more traditional 'wrathful headmaster of doom' system be re-implemented ?

[Delirium]

People shouldn't be forced to be somewhere in the first place. What the fuck kind of response are you expecting here?

Yeah we should beat them with socks full of change until the learn thier lesson. That's what communism is really about.

[VonClausewitz]

I tend to ask these questions to gauge lefty opinions, it makes me life easier in the real world :)

edit - so you don't approve of the educational system at all ? You really think children would willingly goto school ? :rolleyes:

[Delirium]

No i dont think most kids would go to school. School hasn't done much for me anyway i've learned most of what i know from independent study.

The education system as it is now does little but condition children to accept authority and to selectivley provide information, not to mention crush children's spirit in preparation for a life of work. This image portrays my feeling pretty well.

[VonClausewitz]

Interesting image, though I don't remember too many steel helmets or rifles, but I get the allusion. I found that school was what you made it, you could play 'lets rebel against the evil government' and get nothing from it, or you could listen, learn a few things, and then choose what you wanted to study properly.

So, back OT, you'd compare school discipline to stompy SS-men ?

[Delirium]

I found that school was what you made it, you could play 'lets rebel against the evil government' and get nothing from it, or you could listen, learn a few things, and then choose what you wanted to study properly.

That sounds like a good plan, minus the uneccessary authoritarianism and the bullshit jumping through hoops.


So, back OT, you'd compare school discipline to stompy SS-men ?

If you want a "more traditional 'wrathful headmaster of doom' system" obviously, if you want the liberal method it is more of the same, just with a nicer appearance.

[which doctor]

Nowadays, children don't want to go to school because they are unhappy and bored at school. School would be made more fun and exciting. The unneccasary parts would be taken out.

[Hegemonicretribution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 09:28 PM
I found that school was what you made it, you could play 'lets rebel against the evil government' and get nothing from it,


Well I suppose that you leanr to stand up for what you believe in, and not just trust authority and sytems put in place despite a complete lack of a mandate.


or you could listen, learn a few things, and then choose what you wanted to study properly.
School can help kids learn to read, and basic maths, beyond that it is indoctrination, either into the prevailing trends within a particular discipline, or a largely view of society, very little is learnt. I actually learnt both of these prior to schooling, and was fairly tallented at both, so I was bored shitless through compulsory education.

As for totally being against the school system, whilst I am not entirely, I would suggest "de-schooling society" by Ivan Illich (sp?) It has some interesting ideas in it. Basically many school children, especially the working class feel allienated by a system that does little for them. It is designed with a bias towards middle class children, and the only way the working class could in some way compete would be to start work earlier. Often children at 14/15 would rather have a job and the freedom/rewards that come with it, than waste their time doing somethinmg against their will that will provide them with little benifit.

The approach that teachers should take; well there is no legitimate authority, so I suppose that is a clue.

However I do think that your assumption that children would not willingly go to school is off. In some Afircan countries children are enthusiastic about the oppurtunity for education, even in the west many children are the same, I was one. In fact it is the school system that turns kids away from school.

If school was more in tune with the needs of its pupils, and it was more inviting then many more would stay on. Look at the numbers of pupils that voluntarily stay on even with a system they are dissatisfied with, when the economic burden is not too great. 2/3s of My year went into further education when I left compulsory education, and this is a trend that is continuing.

Why are children punished most of the time? Because they chose not to follow the petty legalism with regards to a piece of uniform, or perhaps they wished to wear a coat inside when it was cold? Maybe they didnt agree emphatically enough with the teacher? Perhaps they felt capable of determining for themselves when they needed the toilet despite only having being potty trained for a mere 15 years??... I can totally see why they should be ruled with an iron fist :angry: <_<

Cut the shit out of the school system, and then the real problems will become apparant. Limit to the rules (initially) that are those strictly necessary for teh safe running of a school day, and that includes abolishing the rules that actually prevent learning...such as restrciting an individuals right to control their bladder/diet.

[redstar2000]

What I remember about school: a seemingly endless trek through mind-numbing bullshit.

Really shitty "food".

Noise.

Clanging bells...like prisons.

"Teachers" who couldn&#39;t pour piss out of a boot if the directions were printed on the heel.

A "cafeteria" that stank of rotting food and spoiled milk.

Horribly uncomfortable seating.

Rooms that were freezing or boiling.

Restrooms that were thick with smoke...I added to that. :P

I&#39;ve had a few rotten jobs in my life (for brief periods :lol:), but I really can&#39;t think of anything as bad as high school.

Of course I did "dodge the draft" and I&#39;ve managed to avoid jail except for very short periods...so there&#39;s worse things out there, no question about it.

I can&#39;t really say if schools could be civilized and made into pleasant places of learning or not. It seems like it ought to be possible and is certainly worth the effort in a post-revolutionary society.

But as it existed when I went through it?

Barbaric&#33;

I must defer, of course, to the opinions of kids who are going to high school now as to what they are like...but you rarely see a post on this board expressing any kind of satisfaction with the way things appear to be.

I don&#39;t think "Headmaster as Führer " is going to help matters any. :lol:

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[anomaly]

Originally posted by redstar2000
I must defer, of course, to the opinions of kids who are going to high school now as to what they are like
I&#39;m one of &#39;em.

Well, let&#39;s see, what do I think of school...

Actually, I don&#39;t think the food is that bad. But, then again, I&#39;ll basically eat anything. Plus, I&#39;m on free lunch. The food tastes better when it&#39;s free. :lol:

School itself is, as you said, pretty mind-numbing. Economics class first semester felt like getting on my knees and giving the free-market a blow-job. We also learned all about communism...that it&#39;s a &#39;command economy&#39;, that it doesn&#39;t work, you know, all those good lies.

Current issues last semester was sad. The kids, some of them, were so conservative and Christian that I nearly got sick...every day. :lol:

Others, of course, thought a lot like me (well, atleast they were leftists...probably not anarchists). I&#39;d say it was a 50/50 split. But, my teacher, like most social studies teachers, was conservative as fuck.

Another idea that is unfortunately drilled into you in high school is obedience. We have to act as our teachers wish, we can&#39;t disturb the status quo. And we even have posters hanging in the walls telling us &#39;what our employer expects of us&#39;.

Frighteningly, my high school, like most, looks eerily like a prison. I&#39;ll never forget once when my aunt visited, she thought that the local elementary school was a prison. You just know from the appearance of the big, plain, square building that it sucks to be there.

Oh, and a new addition this year: there are cops everywhere. You walk around, and around every corner, there is an armed cop standing there. We also have new cameras, which I, from time to time, show my middle finger to.

You know, it&#39;s odd. The administration doesn&#39;t see the above as a &#39;barrier to learning&#39;, but it does give that label to girls wearing skimply clothing or shirts advertising drugs. The latter two, I think, would help my learning: they&#39;d keep me awake&#33; :lol:

Oh yea, and every test, every grade, every assignment, is treated as if its a life-or-death situation. Either do my work, or become a miserable failure for the rest of my life. That&#39;s the message.

[red team]

The worst of it is that rich kids that graduate from college and couldn&#39;t locate Iraq on an unmarked map gets to work as your "superiors". For these guys (and gals) college is a four year drinking and sex binge before getting to the "serious" business of profitting from your work and expertise. I&#39;m pretty sure any high school kid is smarter than George Bush, but it doesn&#39;t matter because the alcoholic frat boy got a MBA from Yale.

[redstar2000]

For the sons and daughters of wealth, college is mostly about "forming social networks"...Mr. Moneybags hires his son&#39;s friend, young Mr. Cashbox, on his son&#39;s recommendation.

The fact that young Mr. Cashbox couldn&#39;t find his ass in the dark with both hands and a flashlight is irrelevant; all he need do to be considered a "rising executive star" is make sure his underlings perform&#33;

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Hegemonicretribution]

Originally posted by red [email protected] 10 2006, 04:23 AM
The worst of it is that rich kids that graduate from college and couldn&#39;t locate Iraq on an unmarked map gets to work as your "superiors". For these guys (and gals) college is a four year drinking and sex binge before getting to the "serious" business of profitting from your work and expertise. I&#39;m pretty sure any high school kid is smarter than George Bush, but it doesn&#39;t matter because the alcoholic frat boy got a MBA from Yale.
Of course I intened to be more educated than that, but after highschool and then work, I chose to go to university largely for this reason :lol:

I study as it is, and this will not change as a result of "education," however moving away from the tiny island I live on and getting seriously messed up whilst forming political connections sems like a good idea. I will also be doing it all for free on tax money, and get not only my courses paid for, but a living allowance as part of the lowest income bracket.

At least the system leaves itself open in this case.

[fernando]

Education is a very important thing within a society. Children need to learn to read, do math, learn various things like biology, history, other languages etc etc.

However in this capitalist society of "the free" they should show students both sides of things, for example in economics they only seem to praise the free market and neo-liberalism. When I went to university and followed a course called Poverty and Development they were claiming the opposite (in a somewhat indirect way).

Education is very important within the revolutionary situation, give the people education to let them know what&#39;s going on and what they can do about it.


Another idea that is unfortunately drilled into you in high school is obedience. We have to act as our teachers wish, we can&#39;t disturb the status quo. And we even have posters hanging in the walls telling us &#39;what our employer expects of us&#39;.

Social conditioning, to make the children fit in society or something like that&#33; Its another aspect of education, to make you function within our society.


Frighteningly, my high school, like most, looks eerily like a prison. I&#39;ll never forget once when my aunt visited, she thought that the local elementary school was a prison. You just know from the appearance of the big, plain, square building that it sucks to be there.

Isnt that just the architect&#39;s fault? What do you suggest for a design?


Oh, and a new addition this year: there are cops everywhere. You walk around, and around every corner, there is an armed cop standing there. We also have new cameras, which I, from time to time, show my middle finger to.
I dont know where you&#39;re from, but if you are from a place/country/city/whatever where kids run around with guns and kill off their class there would be a reaction to this, more security, cops, etc etc. However the people who design this seem to ignore what causes a young person to walk into the school building with a weapon and blasting away his fellow classmates...


You know, it&#39;s odd. The administration doesn&#39;t see the above as a &#39;barrier to learning&#39;, but it does give that label to girls wearing skimply clothing or shirts advertising drugs. The latter two, I think, would help my learning: they&#39;d keep me awake&#33;
They wouldnt look at the actual problem because...well its part of their culture and they money from it&#33; Sexy girls...hmm wouldnt that be exploitation of the female or something (awaits the rants from the angry feminists), but yeah eventhough they would keep one awake...fuck I wouldnt concentrate on the classes if there was a beautiful girl right in front of me :lol:


Oh yea, and every test, every grade, every assignment, is treated as if its a life-or-death situation. Either do my work, or become a miserable failure for the rest of my life. That&#39;s the message.
Its a fucked up message indeed, personally it bugs me a lot that I get assignments which they go totally fucked up like "you fail and you will die" or crap like that, but...then you succeed and you realise its only worth like 2% of your final grade which really sucks. But yeah getting good grades to me is a life-or-dead situation sort of...if I fail I will no longer get my scholarship and would be too poor to live in my house and buy food etc. I would be forced to look for a job and (thus) being uneducated would mean I would get a really shitty job (eventhough you might claim its needed for society) with an even shittier wage from which I could hardly survive in this country where the capitalists keep rising the prizes so their multinationals can make more profits.

But yeah the whole life-or-death situation is perhaps a way to encourage children to work harder. I doubt many kids here would work harder if you would give them a rant about the Greater Good and the communist utopia.

[AnnieAngel]

I would never put a kid into an institultionalized learning facility. Never.

If I ever have a kid, which I&#39;d like very much, I&#39;ll homeschool and use tutors for the stuff I can&#39;t teach. Plus sports and dance class and music lessons.

I was ultra-popular in high school and I still freaking hated it. The teachers were stupid and it was a waste of my life.

I like the "like school you&#39;ll love work" poster. That&#39;s all school is, preparing kids to work all day at a shitty job.

Annie :ph34r:

[fernando]

Problem is though that as shitty as these jobs might be they still have to be done. Why will clean the streets, cook your food, sit at the cash register, etc etc?

[theraven]

School was rough, but its imoprtant. I can imagine major changes should be done to schooling, and actually I would advcoate a bit of a hardass type principle. but its complicated.

[piet11111]

education is important unfortunatly schools dont provide any of that.
sure i learned to read but 70% i know was learned in the library and the rest from discovery channel.
school itself was all about making mind numbing math in some standard book and the constant terror of dutch grammar.
heck i mastered dutch grammar for a whole 3 days and then the government decided to change some grammar rules :blink:

then came highschool and it got better but it was still an attack on my own intelligence and will to learn more.
glad that nonsense is over.

[AnnieAngel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 04:34 PM
Problem is though that as shitty as these jobs might be they still have to be done. Why will clean the streets, cook your food, sit at the cash register, etc etc?
Immigrants??? ;)

[violencia.Proletariat]

I don&#39;t remember the name of the study but some hippie era parents wanted to let their children learn freely. They waited until their kids wanted to learn to read to teach them. They waited till they were about 9 or 10 I think, while most kids start at 6-8. But by the time they were 12, you could not tell the difference between the kids who learned to read when they wanted and those who were started at an earlier age.

Should organized education systems be used? Yes, but they should be voluntary and ultra-democratic.

Every public high school I have been to in my life reminds me of prison. From the tile floors in every room and hall to the concrete block walls (always painted white or light gray). Redstar, the temperature situation HAS NOT changed one bit&#33; :lol: I don&#39;t see why they can&#39;t put individual thermostats in each room. The food is still horrible and the teachers are authoritarian. We were lining up in a straight line until the 8th grade&#33; If we didn&#39;t do it right we couldn&#39;t go to lunch until we had it perfect. I&#39;m sorry but you can take your straight line and shove it up your ass when I&#39;m hungry. :lol:

[fernando]

Originally posted by AnnieAngel+Apr 10 2006, 07:00 PM--> (AnnieAngel @ Apr 10 2006, 07:00 PM)
[email protected] 10 2006, 04:34 PM
Problem is though that as shitty as these jobs might be they still have to be done. Why will clean the streets, cook your food, sit at the cash register, etc etc?
Immigrants??? ;) [/b]
Yeah...we can all see what that lead us too...the right wing getting another excuse to whine because years back we treated our immigrants like shit and now they are still here :rolleyes:

And wouldnt those immigrant want "good" jobs etc? ;)


I don&#39;t remember the name of the study but some hippie era parents wanted to let their children learn freely. They waited until their kids wanted to learn to read to teach them. They waited till they were about 9 or 10 I think, while most kids start at 6-8. But by the time they were 12, you could not tell the difference between the kids who learned to read when they wanted and those who were started at an earlier age.
Studies have shown that teaching children different languages from a younger age is more effective than teaching it to them later. I dont know how these things go for courses like mathematics, history, geography etc but I think it would be better to start at a younger age with certain things.
And when those children you mentioned turned 9 or 10...did they wanted to learn then? When I was around that age I didnt want to go to school, I wanted to play outside and eat ice cream. The influence of those treacherour hippies (lets face it...those babyboomers are traitors to their beliefs) on their children might also have impact on it. Perhaps they should make a study in this time. So let a group of children start with their education when they are 6 and another group at the age of 9. Then see at the age of 12 if this hippie theory is still correct. Children from various enviroments might also increase the reliability of such a study.


Should organized education systems be used? Yes, but they should be voluntary and ultra-democratic.
I think you rely too much on the "good-will" of the children, if you would go to a school and ask them who would rather play then study I think that most kids would go outside and never come back :P Every child has to have received some sort of education, he/she has to be able to read and write and know other basic educational things. Especially in a communist society (which is what many here dream of) I would see education take a way more involuntary approach, kids would HAVE to read Marx and Engels and all those other great writers and study their views etc. Same goes capitalism, only in capitalism its called &#39;economics class&#39; where try to tell you that the neo-liberal policies are the best out there <_<


Every public high school I have been to in my life reminds me of prison.
Architecture....how would you suggest to make it look? Like Disney Land?


I don&#39;t see why they can&#39;t put individual thermostats in each room.
Hmm I never experienced that problem to the schools I went to, perhaps this only happens where you are from. Its also a financial problem I guess. Schools get money but they either put it in their own pockets or its not enough (most of the time its both)


The food is still horrible
Either get your own food then (they should build like a mini market next to each school) or the schools should do something about it. probably a combination of both. Students have to be able to get good and healthy food at their school.


teachers are authoritarian
You assume students are angels, many of them are annoying brats...if I were surrounded by those figures all day long for several years and I have to try to teach them something I would turn like a fucking Nazi eventually. STEHEN BLEIBEN&#33;&#33;&#33; (not literally a Nazi...I know some will love to think that)


We were lining up in a straight line until the 8th grade&#33; If we didn&#39;t do it right we couldn&#39;t go to lunch until we had it perfect.
An attempt to teach a child discipline.


I&#39;m sorry but you can take your straight line and shove it up your ass when I&#39;m hungry.
No lunch for you&#33; :P


education is important unfortunatly schools dont provide any of that.
It has to be changed in a very big way. However governments dont really give a shit about this since well...the money keeps flowing and they (and their elite group) send their children to very expensive superior school where they just do nothing. (like stated before in this thread)


sure i learned to read but 70% i know was learned in the library and the rest from discovery channel.

You should know though that many young adults (and children) dont always love to watch Discovery Channel and read books. Most teenagers would rather watch 50 Cent tell them about how he got shot 9 times (and he didnt shoot back, what a wuss gangsta) instead of watching a documentary about World War 2.


school itself was all about making mind numbing math in some standard book
It depends if you are going to use that math later on. I wish I studied math better at highschool. Im needing it really bad for statistical research. Eventhough you could also do these things on a computer, those things are not that smart that they can do everything correctly :(


the constant terror of dutch grammar
Rather have somebody talk and write correct dutch (especially in more formal situation) than some vague incorrect jibberish ;)


then came highschool and it got better but it was still an attack on my own intelligence and will to learn more.
glad that nonsense is over.
So what do you do now? You study, work?

[violencia.Proletariat]

if you would go to a school and ask them who would rather play then study I think that most kids would go outside and never come back :P

You see this as a bad thing, I see this as an obvious red flag. It&#39;s not that they don&#39;t want to learn, but they don&#39;t want to learn in the present ways because it&#39;s REALLY SHITTY.


Every child has to have received some sort of education, he/she has to be able to read and write and know other basic educational things.

I agree of course. From my childhood I never was "turned off" by these things, I was more worried about getting in trouble and having to write out the 50 states in one night, then get in more trouble at home for getting in trouble at school.

There&#39;s not much in the past 7-8 years that I couldn&#39;t have learned from a book, aside from math. But even among math teachers I&#39;ve talked to, the consensus is that math books just suck :lol:


Especially in a communist society (which is what many here dream of) I would see education take a way more involuntary approach, kids would HAVE to read Marx and Engels and all those other great writers and study their views etc.

Talk about boring&#33; We wan&#39;t these kids to enjoy themselves and grow, not go brain dead :lol: Forcing kids to read Marx isn&#39;t going to get good results for us, just turn kids off of reading.


Architecture....how would you suggest to make it look? Like Disney Land?

:lol: Only if it has a water park&#33; I would cut the populations down significantly and make the schools be much more pupil friendly and comftorable. Padded chairs, couches in social areas, etc.


or the schools should do something about it. probably a combination of both. Students have to be able to get good and healthy food at their school.

Schools won&#39;t do anything about it unless the students use their power.


if I were surrounded by those figures all day long for several years and I have to try to teach them something I would turn like a fucking Nazi eventually. STEHEN BLEIBEN&#33;&#33;&#33; (not literally a Nazi...I know some will love to think that)

Well you already like the uniforms and parades. It&#39;s not of my concern whether teachers are annoyed by students, they don&#39;t have to be teachers. The fact is the present school conditions allow them to be authoritarian assholes and that must be stopped.


An attempt to teach a child discipline.

And you think thats a good thing? It doesn&#39;t work, if a teacher told me to get in a straight line today, I&#39;d tell them to fuck off.


You should know though that many young adults (and children) dont always love to watch Discovery Channel and read books

What the fuck is this? Lets take a poll of how many public school kids enjoy school and see how that turns out. I don&#39;t think it&#39;s necessary because I already know the answer.

[fernando]

You see this as a bad thing, I see this as an obvious red flag. It&#39;s not that they don&#39;t want to learn, but they don&#39;t want to learn in the present ways because it&#39;s REALLY SHITTY.

So far in this thread Ive only noticed people saying its REALLY SHITTY, but do you have a better idea?


Talk about boring&#33; We wan&#39;t these kids to enjoy themselves and grow, not go brain dead Forcing kids to read Marx isn&#39;t going to get good results for us, just turn kids off of reading.

Yes...so you need another way to let them learn about Marx.


Only if it has a water park&#33; I would cut the populations down significantly and make the schools be much more pupil friendly and comftorable. Padded chairs, couches in social areas, etc.

Somewhat similar as to what you see in the older universities? At my university there is this hallway filled with lounging areas. It is a good idea&#33; I would definately also add more coffee machines and some inside smoking area&#33;


Schools won&#39;t do anything about it unless the students use their power.
I remember students at my old high school tried something similar to make the school more comfortable and clean. It ended up with inspectors coming to the school, so all of a sudden the school was filled with soap, plants and other pretty things. The school received money to improve their shit. Well this ended up with the principal getting a totally new officer with a floor heathing system, expensive wooden floor, new fancy computer. Basicly all the money was spent on her office&#33; It showed student action had very little influence, if the students could influence the government...


Well you already like the uniforms and parades.
Yeah I do...leftists here seem to get very scared of that and found it a reason to restrict me. Maybe I should have said I liked Soviet uniforms and parades better...well they&#39;re both cool but the Nazis were still fancier&#33;


It&#39;s not of my concern whether teachers are annoyed by students
Perhaps students should learn to shut the fuck up and sit the fuck down sometimes. I want to learn something, not have a bunch of morons screaming &#39;Allah Akbar&#39; or ***** about a football game during my classes. That&#39;s it, they should have some sign that would light up above the blackboard saying "SIT THE FUCK DOWN, SHUT THE FUCK UP&#33;" Perhaps it might be too extreme since I think a student would learn something better if it had a more interactive nature, as in discussion etc. However some people have to learn when to shut the fuck up and let others talks...


they don&#39;t have to be teachers
And still you need teachers...who will become a teacher? Those fucking brats who wont shut up? Most of the time they seem to be the dumbest of the class&#33;


And you think thats a good thing? It doesn&#39;t work, if a teacher told me to get in a straight line today, I&#39;d tell them to fuck off.

Now you dont need to stand in a line and do those things. Standing in line and that whole thing teaches a child to obey and behave fittingly to what is the accepted norm. When you grow older the norm changes.


What the fuck is this?
A fucking respond to what Piet fucking posted that he learned more from books and discovery channel instead of school. That&#39;s what the fuck this is&#33;


Lets take a poll of how many public school kids enjoy school and see how that turns out.
How many children love to watch discovery and read books, make that poll...
Will they enjoy school because of its education or because of the social interaction between fellow teenagers there...well I think I already know the answer :rolleyes:

[violencia.Proletariat]

but do you have a better idea?

I&#39;ve already given some personal opinions on the matter that would make me as a student more at place in a school.

I mean, if you want to improve student life/learning shouldn&#39;t you listen to the students?


Yes...so you need another way to let them learn about Marx.

Yes they can read his works, when they aren&#39;t 8 years old.

The school received money to improve their shit. Well this ended up with the principal getting a totally new officer with a floor heathing system, expensive wooden floor, new fancy computer. Basicly all the money was spent on her office&#33; It showed student action had very little influence, if the students could influence the government...

When I advocate workers power, I dont mean for them to vote for a candidate that supposedly represents them. When I advocate students changing their situation I don&#39;t advocate them securing funds which they don&#39;t have any control over. They need to CRUSH the foundations of the present day idea of education, they need to abolish and restructure the whole thing, social revolution.


well they&#39;re both cool but the Nazis were still fancier&#33;

Maybe we should all get Hitler mustaches too?


Perhaps students should learn to shut the fuck up and sit the fuck down sometimes.

You really are a closet fascist aren&#39;t you?


I want to learn something, not have a bunch of morons screaming &#39;Allah Akbar&#39; or ***** about a football game during my classes.

I wouldn&#39;t bother, I&#39;d just leave. You probably want to get ready for ROTC and throw the rifles up and down in the air, with the fancy uniforms&#33;


However some people have to learn when to shut the fuck up and let others talks...

Yes, and the person you are referring to is the authoritarian teacher. Maybe we should just shut the fuck up and listen to politicians too.


Now you dont need to stand in a line and do those things. Standing in line and that whole thing teaches a child to obey and behave fittingly to what is the accepted norm. When you grow older the norm changes.

At 13 years of age, I don&#39;t need to be told to stand in line to learn discipline to accomplish everyday tasks.


How many children love to watch discovery and read books, make that poll...

More than those who would attend school on a holiday&#33; Besides, this was someone else&#39;s statement, not mine.

[piet11111]

im unemployed and trying to scrape a living.

the problem is that there is no work out here anymore that involves brains.
its all muscle (i got my ass kicked and i miss a piece of bone in my arm so i cant lift heavy stuff) or poeple skills (behind a bar etc. but i would run up the wall screaming if i had a job like that)

and ofcourse there is always the entire cycle of not having enough on the job experience being too old/young (old as in too expensive due to minimum wage requirements and young as being to inexperienced)
or not having the right bullshit papers for a job a trained monkey could do.

school sucks but getting a job is hellish.
also poeple that are prolonged unemployed are treated as lepers nobody want them nomatter how skilled they are.

[fernando]

I&#39;ve already given some personal opinions on the matter that would make me as a student more at place in a school.

I mean, if you want to improve student life/learning shouldn&#39;t you listen to the students?

Make the school a prettier place and remove the authoritarian figures...and then? <_<


Maybe we should all get Hitler mustaches too?
Well that is something YOU are suggesting here not me...


You really are a closet fascist aren&#39;t you?
How does that make me fascistic, a typical problem of the left to call thing &#39;fascist&#39; way to quickly&#33;


I wouldn&#39;t bother, I&#39;d just leave.
Yes...you leave...


You probably want to get ready for ROTC and throw the rifles up and down in the air, with the fancy uniforms&#33;

Me liking the Nazi uniforms has really made an impact on your little life hasnt it ;)


Yes, and the person you are referring to is the authoritarian teacher. Maybe we should just shut the fuck up and listen to politicians too.

You go to school to learn something from a teacher, so shut the fuck up and listen. Oh my you will probably call that "fascistic" <_< Yes...shut the fuck up and listen to what the politician has to say, if you agree with it great&#33; If you dont, do something about it&#33; The French demonstrated the labourlaw for example&#33; But a politician isnt a school teacher&#33;


At 13 years of age, I don&#39;t need to be told to stand in line to learn discipline to accomplish everyday tasks.

They kept on doing those things when you were 13? I feel sorry for you, they quit doing that crap when I was 9&#33;


More than those who would attend school on a holiday&#33;
What does that have to do with it?


Besides, this was someone else&#39;s statement, not mine.
Yes but you did feel the need to comment on it when I commented him Piet&#39;s statement...so dont fall back when I comment back at your little moment of self rightiousness&#33;



im unemployed and trying to scrape a living.
My mom is in the same shit...well she is handicapped but she doesnt have the right to receive one of those handicapped wellfare things which is higher than the one you receive if you are unemployed.



the problem is that there is no work out here anymore that involves brains.
You&#39;re from Holland right? What kind of education did you do, I mean did you do anything after highschool?



its all muscle (i got my ass kicked and i miss a piece of bone in my arm so i cant lift heavy stuff) or poeple skills (behind a bar etc. but i would run up the wall screaming if i had a job like that)
Hmm all I can say is keep on looking man&#33; :)



and ofcourse there is always the entire cycle of not having enough on the job experience being too old/young (old as in too expensive due to minimum wage requirements and young as being to inexperienced)
or not having the right bullshit papers for a job a trained monkey could do.
I know what you mean here, but doesnt it get really depressing to not work for a very long time?


school sucks but getting a job is hellish.
also poeple that are prolonged unemployed are treated as lepers nobody want them nomatter how skilled they are.
Employees assume that you would have forgotten your skills or that your skills are outdated because you havent worked so long.

It sucks though, good luck with getting a job (if you want one) :)

[Quills]

I hated school. So much. I spent a very large chunk of my life trying to get out of it, and ended up faking an illness and getting some obscure diagnosis so the teachers would stop giving me shit about my truency. Missed years 8-11, and ended up with only 4 GCSEs to show for myself. And I was pretty miserable for most of my teenage years as a result because if my mysterious illness was so bad I couldn&#39;t attend school, then my parents made sure I sure as hell couldn&#39;t go out and socialise.

The reason no-one cares about making schools less hellish is because they&#39;re not exactly going to loose business, are they? It&#39;d not like kids have a choice. About anything much, but especially schooling. If schooling wasn&#39;t compulsory then maybe more people would want to go. They could pick and choose the lessons they care about, shit teachers would be easily identifiable by the low turn out, and teachers would have much less overall power over the kids&#39; lives. As it is now children are subject to every whim of their elders.

[VonClausewitz]

Was there any political reason you hated it ? or were you just going through the normal teen rebellious phase ? My brother did, and wishes he hadn&#39;t - it&#39;s so very difficult to get anywhere in life without and education, or at least proof of one.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Make the school a prettier place and remove the authoritarian figures...and then?

I can not make specific conditions for a post revoultionary school system in a pre-revolutionary time. It is not up to me how the system is structured but it will obviously be based on libertarian principles.


How does that make me fascistic, a typical problem of the left to call thing &#39;fascist&#39; way to quickly&#33;

I have never met a leftist who tells kids to sit down and shut the fuck up. But fascists sure do that&#33;


Me liking the Nazi uniforms has really made an impact on your little life hasnt it ;)

It goes hand in hand with your appreciation of authoritarianism


You go to school to learn something from a teacher, so shut the fuck up and listen.

Public school students go to a school to be kept off the streets by law. I don&#39;t remember it being a place of voluntary learning.


I feel sorry for you, they quit doing that crap when I was 9&#33;

But I should just shut the fuck up about right? :rolleyes: Because standing in line helps me learn ohhh so much

[Quills]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 11:59 PM
Was there any political reason you hated it ? or were you just going through the normal teen rebellious phase ? My brother did, and wishes he hadn&#39;t - it&#39;s so very difficult to get anywhere in life without and education, or at least proof of one.
To be honest, I have no idea why I hated it so much. I&#39;d try going again every few months, spend half a day there and run away during break. Hating every second of it but nothing in particular.

I don&#39;t regret not going to school. I regret a lot of the ways I spent my not-at-school time, but I think most people dislike their teenage years. I&#39;m at college now, re-sat a couple of the compulsorary GCSEs my first year there. And I even enjoy it slightly, I don&#39;t know if it&#39;s the subtle differences like no uniforms, calling the teachers by their first names, no records of attendance, etc or if it&#39;s just because I&#39;m older. But I&#39;m off to uni in september. Kinda looking forward to it. Which is new for me.

[fernando]

I have never met a leftist who tells kids to sit down and shut the fuck up. But fascists sure do that&#33;

Wow...leftists are such nice fellows arent they&#33; Its a trademark for fascists to say to kids to sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up...is that what you are suggesting? Yes the overuse of the word "fascist" is clearly noticable once again&#33;


It goes hand in hand with your appreciation of authoritarianism
Boo fucking hoo, how do you think the communist system will stay in power with all those who have no desire to join in?


Public school students go to a school to be kept off the streets by law. I don&#39;t remember it being a place of voluntary learning.
So public school was never designed to learn something, just to keep you off the streets...hmm our countries seem to differ on this then I guess&#33;


But I should just shut the fuck up about right?
Nah you can scream and ***** all you want, I dont have to see/hear it anyway.


Because standing in line helps me learn ohhh so much

It will make your life complete ;)

[Don't Change Your Name]

The differences between school and college are amazing: in college they don&#39;t force you to stand in a line at 7:30 am in winter saying some anthem while they raise the flag. They don&#39;t tell you things like "if you don&#39;t bring this next class you get a <insert name of the lowest grade>&#33;". Hell, sometimes they don&#39;t even tell you what have to do&#33; They don&#39;t make you wear a uniform, they don&#39;t "punish" you for eating or drinking in class, and you even choose some people that "represent" you. You can leave when you want to, you can listen to music and you can smoke (not in the "classrooms", though).

That&#39;s my experience so far. Now that I started going to the university (where it&#39;s hard for me to get used to this freedom because of the way they brainwashed me at school) it&#39;s even more obvious to me that school has indoctrinating you as one of the, if not the, main objective. In that sense I can&#39;t blame them, since they are preparing you to be a "wage slave" (which is better than not getting you used to that at all).

But it sure says a lot about the existing institutions.

[red team]

The reason pre-college school sucks is because there are no student unions in educational institutions below the college level. School like everything else in society is controlled by class interests. Without a challenge to the authority of the presiding ruling class, they can push the limits of their authority and "rules" as far as they like. It is entirely in their interest to do so.