Burn out, or overthrown?

[Andy Bowden]

Will Capitalism be overthrown as a result of it's internal contradictions, when it reaches a "crisis point" eg peak oil - and Socialist organisations can mobilise for it's overthrow - or will it be overthrown only when Socialist organisations can instill class counsciousness into the working class, regardless of when it has or has not reached "crisis point"?

Or is it a combination of both?

[Guest1]

If the left is not ready when a major crisis comes, you will see the possibility of a Fascist revival to save Capitalism and end the crisis.

Only this time, I doubt humanity will be able to survive another world war, or another mass crisis without a revolutionary way out.

[redstar2000]

IF Marx was right, then capitalism will "self-destruct"...as feudal regimes self-destructed, opening the way to the triumph of the bourgeoisie.

But this is a controversial "if" -- the Leninist paradigm of the last century posited that a conscious "revolutionary elite" could lead a "backward working class" to victory over capitalism under "certain circumstances".

That is, of course, a whole "can of worms" in and of itself.

I should add, by the way, that "doomsday rhetoric" is totally counter-productive from a revolutionary standpoint. Appealing to people on the grounds that "humanity will not survive" unless it "chooses revolution" simply generates passivity...and cynicism about our motives. :o

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[bloody_capitalist_sham]

I think class consciousness already exists, just because things "work okay" at the moment, there is no incentive to have a revolution.

When things fuck up, people, backed by lefties will rebel.

I think people express class consciousness verbally pretty much all the time. People are always talking about how the work is messed up, and don’t you always here "too much work for too little pay" or something similar? I know I do.

I have never heard anyone say the opposite that they think they should be ruled.



Socialist organizations can instill class consciousness into the working class, regardless of when it has or has not reached "crisis point"?

I think that this scenario, in the western world is unlikely to ever happen, because it means that people are motivated by ideas.

In historical terms, people will only listen to socialist organizations when they feel that it will improve their lives. Hence they will want a change not because of ideas, but because of material needs.

[Dreckt]

I agree with some here that we should not expect a, what can I call it, a physical situation, that is, something like peak oil or another depression. Waiting will not do.

On the other hand, and I think this is specially the case for America, they need a situation based on needs. When the capitalist system has taken all, restricted all and corrupted what can be corrupted, then at least at that point people will realize that "hey, maybe capitalism and the neoliberal idea is not good after all".

So I really don't know how the present system would fall. The best thing would be something of a combination of leftists fighting the system, and the decay of capitalism (like the gap between the rich and the poor).

Thinking even more into the future, what happens when humans establish colonies on other planets? Will capitalism be exported to those places too? Can we have a limit on when a revolution takes place, or is it also possible in a future age of space colonization?

[Guest1]

There will be no space-oriented future under Capitalism, that requires a revolutionary change in the means of production.

So don't worry, no space colonies to slow down the revolution.

As for Redstar, Marx never claimed that Capitalism will self-destruct and give birth to socialism "just like that". That's quite a ridiculous assertion. Capitalism creates the conditions and the class which puts Socialism on the agenda, but men and women still make their own history within the confines of the material conditions of the times.

Without an organized working class, there will not be the birth of a new society out of the old.

Looking at the last two mass failures of the working class to organize, bonapartist regimes will be on the agenda for the bourgeoisie. That is undeniable, Fascism on the right, and bureaucratic deformation on the left in the third world countries that do revolt in preparation for revolutions in the west. This is the outcome if there is a failure to organize.

Where speculation comes in is, will we be able to defeat the Fascist regimes before they defeat the revolutionary wave? Or will there be a world war? Will we survive the world war?

I think the answer to question one is up in the air, but if we are unable to do that, questions two and three are just dominoes.

If we can't defeat the Fascists on the ascendancy this time, a world war will ensue, and humanity cannot survive it.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Che y Marijuana
There will be no space-oriented future under Capitalism, that requires a revolutionary change in the means of production.

Specifically, a cheap, convenient way to achieve low earth orbit...until that can be developed, "space" is unprofitable.

The capitalists are "working on it"...but it does seem to require a significant technological breakthrough.

It's quite legitimate to question whether the "old" capitalists are capable of this kind of effort any longer.

I'm not so sure about the "new" capitalist countries. I wouldn't just flatly "rule out" the possibility that Japanese or Chinese scientists might "find a way to do it" and they have the capital to make the investment in "revolutionary technologies" without concern for their quarterly profit & loss statements.

"Space colonies" could be built now with technology that already exists...but they would be horrendously expensive and would take decades to start returning a profit. Only young and vigorous capitalist classes are usually in the mood to "try for the big score"..."old" capitalist classes are much more "risk-averse" and willing to "stay with a proved winner" even when it stops winning. :lol:

It's not beyond the realm of possibility that at the very moment when U.S. capitalism is collapsing in disarray and tens of millions of workers are actively seizing the means of production while demolishing Washington, D.C., that the giant Beijing Imperial Hotel Chain opens for business on the Moon! :D

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[LoneRed]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 09:44 PM
IF Marx was right, then capitalism will "self-destruct"...as feudal regimes self-destructed, opening the way to the triumph of the bourgeoisie.

But this is a controversial "if" -- the Leninist paradigm of the last century posited that a conscious "revolutionary elite" could lead a "backward working class" to victory over capitalism under "certain circumstances".

That is, of course, a whole "can of worms" in and of itself.

I should add, by the way, that "doomsday rhetoric" is totally counter-productive from a revolutionary standpoint. Appealing to people on the grounds that "humanity will not survive" unless it "chooses revolution" simply generates passivity...and cynicism about our motives. :o

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif
ok yes he did say that it is inherently contradictory, but he has also said that people make history. If there isnt a broad socialist movement at the right time, capitalism will heal itself and find better ways to avert such things.