Cuba - Not that great

[Karl Marx's Camel]

I have read a bit on Cuba and talked to people who have lived there. I will try to isolate isolated rumours, and post what I believe is correct.

My impression, from what I have read, is that Cuba is not that great. Apparently, many Cubans do not even have beds. The casualty clinics are in very bad shape. The hospitals are a little better, but apparently not that great. Medicine is lacking, and there is almost a lack of doctors in the country, now that so many are sent overseas.

The public transport is horrible. You might wait for a bus for hours. And when you get there, its terribly overcrowded. A Camello (http://canf.org/images/escenas%20callejeras/camello4.jpg) sometimes carry up to 300 standing passengers.
In theory healthcare is free, but in order to get medical care when it is needed, Cubans need to bribe the doctors. But many Cubans do not know where to get 20 dollars (the monthly wage is often 10 dollars).

There is a huge black market.

And the so-called "equality" is more or less non-existant. Some can manage to earn a few hundred bucks a month by doing various black market jobs (stealing cigars from the factory and selling them).

Prostitution is widespread. The family sell their daughters, often for as little as 5-10 dollars. If you go to Cuba, prostitutes and hustlers will try to do everything to get money from you.

Racism is far from abolished. If you are white and have a black girlfriend, both of you are likely to get a lot of trouble with police, who wants to confirm her ID. People look at you in an ugly way, because they think she is a prostitute.

I've also been told that Cubans are egoist people. They are supposedly materialistic, and have little moral.


Basically, things are not that great.

[Ian]

What do you expect? it's a 3rd world country

[Karl Marx's Camel]

What do you expect?

Something certainly better.

It's not that difficult. Cuba could:


* Take back the 5,000 doctors/healthworkers/teachers etc. Cuba has outside Venezuela and Cuba
- That would solve economic problems as well as lack of doctors.


* Open up for foreign investment in areas that the state of Cuba cannot cover.
- That would mean increase of living standards, at least to an extent.


* Loosen control on the Paladares, and give them permission to have, say, 18 seats instead of 12, and increase inspections in return. - That would do away with much of the black market and the troublesome economic situation of the paladares.

* Allow people to have computers (without making an application) and allow people to install antennas to their television set.

* The movies shown in the cinemas of Cuba are usually U.S. films from the 1950's. They have Portugese series in Cuba. So maybe they could get some new videos from Brazil in the cinemas, if that is what people like.

* Restore crumbling buildings, despite occupants refusing to leave the house. I think last year there were some 300 houses in Havana alone that fell apart. Not only does that whipe out the culture of Cuba, but it is dangerous for people who live in these outsides, and people walking past these buildings.

* Open up the Communist Party-controlled media

* Encourage people to speak freely

* Increase people's rule (democracy) and stop threathen oppositional candidates that are not in line with Castro.

That would have solved a lot of problems.

[Hiero]

Who said Cuba was great. People are saying Cuba is a working country. That it is a country that is greatly working on it's problems, that it has intention to keep social security and improve it and that it has employment. Compare Cuba to other 3rd world countries that are similar in history and population size, and you will see Cuba is doing very well.


Apparently, many Cubans do not even have beds

The person who made up this lie should have said "most Cubans have make shift beds" that is a bit more believable. It's pretty stupid to believe Cubans don't have beds.


* Take back the 5,000 doctors/healthworkers/teachers etc. Cuba has outside Venezuela and Cuba
- That would solve economic problems as well as lack of doctors.

Cuba has made commitements to helping other nations build. The more allies Cuba has the more trade it can build. Like with Venezuela, it gets oil for it's doctor commitments.


* Open up for foreign investment in areas that the state of Cuba cannot cover.
- That would mean increase of living standards, at least to an extent.


With who excactly?

It is very hard for most socialist countries to control investment. If Cuba asked imperialist nations to invest in certian sectors then the imperialist would demand more liberalisation before they make the deal.

I have heard that DPRK has been able to control foreign investments. What they do is sell contracts that only last a certain time. Basically DPRK are getting infrastructure built, while the investor gets to make a bit of money before nationalisation. Im not sure who the investors are to DPRK, probally South Korea.

Maybe Cuba could try this, but Cuba doesn't have a neighbour that is cultural tied like North and South Korea.


* Loosen control on the Paladares, and give them permission to have, say, 18 seats instead of 12, and increase inspections in return. - That would do away with much of the black market and the troublesome economic situation of the paladares.


What are Paladares?


* Allow people to have computers (without making an application) and allow people to install antennas to their television set.

Well it is wierd that first you think people in Cuba don't have beds, now you think there lots of computers that people can buy, it's just the Communist Party of Cuba doesn't allow it.

The reason people probally don't have computers is because it isn't affordable. Cuba is not a 1st world imperialist economy that can produce computers for really cheap in explioted 3rd world conditions.


* The movies shown in the cinemas of Cuba are usually U.S. films from the 1950's. They have Portugese series in Cuba. So maybe they could get some new videos from Brazil in the cinemas, if that is what people like.


They probally do. They obviously have limits on what they can get.


* Open up the Communist Party-controlled media

Open it to who?


* Encourage people to speak freely

What do you mean?


Where are you getting this from anyway, you haven't sourced anything you have said. Alot of what your saying sounds like it's coming from anti-Castro Cubans in Miama.

They seem to follow the same pattern. First they say Cuba is very poor, and then demand the impossible. Like demanding personal computers. One minute it is "cubans have no beds" the next it is "Cubans need to have lots of movies and TV shows".

These imperialist propagandists are way out of line. They are not promoting real solutions, they are just trying to get 1st world people on their side. This is exposed by anti-communists emphasising on personal luxuries that are available in the 1st world.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

The person who made up this lie should have said "most Cubans have make shift beds" that is a bit more believable. It's pretty stupid to believe Cubans don't have beds.

You are probably right.




I have heard that DPRK has been able to control foreign investments. What they do is sell contracts that only last a certain time. Basically DPRK are getting infrastructure built, while the investor gets to make a bit of money before nationalisation. Im not sure who the investors are to DPRK, probally South Korea.


That sounds like a great idea.




What are Paladares?


Family run resturants.



Well it is wierd that first you think people in Cuba don't have beds, now you think there lots of computers that people can buy, it's just the Communist Party of Cuba doesn't allow it.
Didn't mention the Communist Party of Cuba.



now you think there lots of computers that people can buy

No, but if people have the means to get a computer, I don't think they should have to make an application for having one.



Open it to who?
Different sections of society. People who are not an affiliate of the Communist Party, as well as those who are. Everyone from Juan Almeida to Oswaldo Paya. Homosexuals and blacks could use the media to improve people's view towards blacks and homosexuals.



They probally do.
They probably do not, as movies from the 50's are regularily shown. Cuba does have some films produced inside Cuba.

Cuba cannot buy movies from the United States, but there are plenty of movies they could get, that are outside of the U.S.



Where are you getting this from anyway, you haven't sourced anything you have said. Alot of what your saying sounds like it's coming from anti-Castro Cubans in Miama.
That public transport is overcrowded, that racism still exists, that movies from the 50's are often the ones shown, regarding the black market is widespread... This is not Miami propaganda. You can find this information in any travel book.


Regarding lack of doctors and other things... these are things I have heard from people that have lived in Cuba. It might be that these are exaggerated to an extent.




They seem to follow the same pattern. First they say Cuba is very poor, and then demand the impossible. Like demanding personal computers. One minute it is "cubans have no beds" the next it is "Cubans need to have lots of movies and TV shows".

Yes, it is indeed a common tactic of rightwingers/anti-Cubans.


However, I mentioned TV-shows and cinema because these are things that make life easier. I'm poor. Yet because I have internet, this make things a little easier. I don't have to buy movies or music, or go to the cinema (now that I have a relatively high bandwidth). Sometimes entertainment can ease the mines of the poor. And I believe that more entertainment in Cuba could make it easier.

And what I mentioned (for instance) is far from impossible.

[Dreckt]

But remember to compare Cuba to other so-called "communist states" in the world today and in previous history. Why is it that Cuba don't allow people to speak freely? That is because they have the US on their doorsteps - the US propaganda and propaganda methods are much more advanced than the Cuban one.

On the other hand - if Cuba was a huge nation, such as Russia, China or the Soviet Union, and had a lot of recourses and weapons, then they could let people speak of whatever they liked.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 04:29 AM
What do you expect? it's a 3rd world country
I think that's the central point. Cubans who come here are bound to be "shocked and awed" by the display of wealth in the U.S. -- even if they don't get that much of it themselves.

Let them spend, for example, 12-18 hours in a municipal hospital waiting room waiting to see a doctor.

Let them find out what it costs to rent a small apartment in Miami.

Let them discover just how well you can live on a McJob in the U.S.

They have "a lot to learn" about life in the "greatest country in the world". :lol:

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Karl Marx's Camel]

But remember to compare Cuba to other so-called "communist states" in the world today and in previous history. Why is it that Cuba don't allow people to speak freely? That is because they have the US on their doorsteps - the US propaganda and propaganda methods are much more advanced than the Cuban one.

On the other hand - if Cuba was a huge nation, such as Russia, China or the Soviet Union, and had a lot of recourses and weapons, then they could let people speak of whatever they liked.


That is, in my opinion, just a petty excuse. Free speech will not damage Cuba, or any other country for that matter. It will loosen up the domestic, and even international tensions.

[Ian]

Cuba isn't a country rich in natural resources like Saudi Arabia for example (although some oil deposits have been found in Cuban Nautical Territory over the years).

Wealth never comes automatically to a country with an economy based on primary agricultural- and of late tourism. Colombia and Peru were Primary producers, then they discover cash crops like Coca, and anyone with a clue knows what goes on there.

In Latin America, Cuba is going well, but I guess first world standards of comforts don't measure up

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Cuba isn't a country rich in natural resources like Saudi Arabia for example (although some oil deposits have been found in Cuban Nautical Territory over the years).

Japan is not rich in natural resources, is it? Yet it has created a formidable economy.

Cuba does have nickel and shellfish. I assume also fish.

Norway has managed to become rich largely because of fish (and oil).

[RaiseYourVoice]

You can find this information in any travel book
oh right travel books are certainly a good source of information for economic problems of a socialist country


Japan is not rich in natural resources, is it? Yet it has created a formidable economy.


cuba however isnt rich in imperialist companies. a capitalist cuba sure would have much more available goods/movies/computers... thats its only for a proportion of the people and that its on the cost of other countries goes along with it though...




That is, in my opinion, just a petty excuse. Free speech will not damage Cuba, or any other country for that matter. It will loosen up the domestic, and even international tensions.
International tensions will loosen up that day that castro dies and the americans attack cuba... that is IF they suceed.

Free speech is a complicated thing.... there would be an anti castro movement with U$ dollar bills in their pocets immidiatly. Still i would agree that free speech in combination with the kind of information that redstar mentioned it could take socialism one step further

[Karl Marx's Camel]

oh right travel books are certainly a good source of information for economic problems of a socialist country

It is a good source. Have you ever read a travel book? It says it all.

Availability in stores, healthcare (in case tourists get sick), drinking water (in case a tourist is thirsty), public transport (in case a tourist wants to take the public transport), pollution, the psychology of the people, living standards, restrictions, crime, etc.

It is actually quite brilliant.


cuba however isnt rich in imperialist companies.

True.
But it could be "richer" if the country would open up. And what would happen? Say stores would open with modern movies. Say bookstores would open, with different material than Che Guevara, Lenin and H.C. Andersen.

Wouldn't that be great? Combined with relatively high taxation and the system Hiero talked about, Cuba would benefit from capitalism, not the other way around.


a capitalist cuba sure would have much more available goods/movies/computers... thats its only for a proportion of the people and that its on the cost of other countries goes along with it though...
Possibly, but not neccesarily. We have seen how at least one brand of captialism works in Cuba. And it did not work out well.

However, in South Korea, over 90 percent of the population has computers. Are movies in South Korea just for a proportion of the people?

Capitalism does not neccesarily mean raise of living standards. But foreign investment in a socialist society, would actually benefit socialism. Especially a backward one.



Free speech is a complicated thing.... there would be an anti castro movement with U$ dollar bills in their pocets immidiatly.
Then Cuba could arrest those who are supported by the U.S. And I think they already do that. Freedom of speech is not receiving dollar bills from the U.S.

[RaiseYourVoice]

oh right travel books are certainly a good source of information for economic problems of a socialist country


It is a good source. Have you ever read a travel book? It says it all.

Availability in stores, healthcare (in case tourists get sick), drinking water (in case a tourist is thirsty), public transport (in case a tourist wants to take the public transport), pollution, the psychology of the people, living standards, restrictions, crime, etc.

It is actually quite brilliant.

sure it contains alot of information, the problem is how lets say objective that kind of material is.


True.
But it could be "richer" if the country would open up. And what would happen? Say stores would open with modern movies. Say bookstores would open, with different material than Che Guevara, Lenin and H.C. Andersen.

Wouldn't that be great? Combined with relatively high taxation and the system Hiero talked about, Cuba would benefit from capitalism, not the other way around.

so your saying capitalism is a good solution for the cuban people? opening up to imperialist companies is? sorry wrong forum you wanted the www.socialdemocratleft.com i guess.


Free speech is a complicated thing.... there would be an anti castro movement with U$ dollar bills in their pocets immidiatly.

Then Cuba could arrest those who are supported by the U.S. And I think they already do that. Freedom of speech is not receiving dollar bills from the U.S.

I didnt say it is the same but it will lead to that. even though, if you read on i never said i am against it, just pointed out the dangers.



Possibly, but not neccesarily. We have seen how at least one brand of captialism works in Cuba. And it did not work out well.

However, in South Korea, over 90 percent of the population has computers. Are movies in South Korea just for a proportion of the people?

Capitalism does not neccesarily mean raise of living standards. But foreign investment in a socialist society, would actually benefit socialism. Especially a backward one.

OK capitalism and foreign investment BENIFITS socialism? now i get it the united fruit company was trying to help cuba! sorry but you are saying capitalism benefits socialism? open markets are helping socialism? what is your idea of socialism? i'd really like to know that

[Karl Marx's Camel]

sure it contains alot of information, the problem is how lets say objective that kind of material is.


When you have read 7 different books on one particular country, while reading material from different websites, I think you can with a pretty good accuracy get a picture of how it is like.


so your saying capitalism is a good solution for the cuban people?

Do you understand the difference between foreign investment, and capitalism?


opening up to imperialist companies is?

Define "imperialist companies". If you mean halliburton and the like, then no.



OK capitalism and foreign investment BENIFITS socialism?
It could, absolutely, yes.



now i get it the united fruit company was trying to help cuba!
The pre-Castro era in Cuba was based on companies ruling people, not people ruling companies.
At that time, Cubans had to adjust themselves to the rules of companies. But today, foreign companies must adjust themselves to the rules of the Cuban people.


open markets are helping socialism?

Never talked of "open markets".

[Ian]

Cuba would be better off just like Russia is better off... yep... much better...

Japan is a country rich in imperial plunder, raiding the gold reserves of Peking, Hong Kong and Treaty ports such as Shanghai is not irrelevant, neither is the fact that the US government pumped millions of dollars into the Japanese economy to establish a bulwark against communism

Japan's economy was also benifited by the post world war two recessed countryside (which I suppose hardly exists in Japan anymore) which provided a source of cheap labour for years, an the again-nascent industrial cities, which provided a source of personal/business savings and investment, factors which continues to be key contributors to the massive growths of many newly industrialised countries such as South Korea, Thailand or more recently China

So until Cuban fucks the whole of South East Asia over in an imperialist war then becomes best buddies with the United States, or relocates to close proximity to some of the largest economies in the world I doubt that Cuba could compare even on a per capite basis with the economies of Norway or Japan.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Cuba would be better off just like Russia is better off... yep... much better...


I tend to disagree.


neither is the fact that the US government pumped millions of dollars into the Japanese economy to establish a bulwark against communism

The Soviets pumped millions of dollars into the Cuban economy, also.



I doubt that Cuba could compare even on a per capite basis with the economies of Norway or Japan.
What if Cuba were to increase fishing exports? Norway export to the "far corners of the world" (at least from the Norwegian perspective). Norway exports to Portugal, Japan, Italy, and many other countries.
Since Cuba, due to the embargo, does not have an easy time picking trading partners, and thus often import and export far away from Cuba... And looking at Norway exporting fish to Japan, why not Cuba? Without the fish, Norway would not succeed economically. So perhaps that is something Cuba could be thinking about?

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

The pre-Castro era in Cuba was based on companies ruling people, not people ruling companies.
At that time, Cubans had to adjust themselves to the rules of companies. But today, foreign companies must adjust themselves to the rules of the Cuban people.

This is simply not how things work. Cuba would become dependent on the foreign company, not the other way around. And there is still plenty more cheap labor to be exploited elsewhere and they don't need stoop to subservience to the Cuban people.


However, in South Korea, over 90 percent of the population has computers. Are movies in South Korea just for a proportion of the people?

Capitalism does not neccesarily mean raise of living standards. But foreign investment in a socialist society, would actually benefit socialism. Especially a backward one.

South Korea is practically a first world country. I would probably support capitalism if it resulted in the conditions found in Western Europe, North America, Japan and the "East Asian Tigers". But it doesn't. If Cuba were to open up to capitalism, it would probably begin to look like some of its neighboring capitalist countries... Dom. Republic, Haiti, Jamaica. All horribly impoverished and with even less first world amenities that socialism supposedly deprives Cubans of.


What if Cuba were to increase fishing exports? Norway export to the "far corners of the world" (at least from the Norwegian perspective). Norway exports to Portugal, Japan, Italy, and many other countries.
Since Cuba, due to the embargo, does not have an easy time picking trading partners, and thus often import and export far away from Cuba... And looking at Norway exporting fish to Japan, why not Cuba? Without the fish, Norway would not succeed economically. So perhaps that is something Cuba could be thinking about?

Cuba does sell some of its goods abroad. Cigars, rum, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if it sold fish as well. If it's feasible, I'm sure they have considered it. Trade is not a foreign concept to Cuba. no pun intended


I have heard that DPRK has been able to control foreign investments. What they do is sell contracts that only last a certain time. Basically DPRK are getting infrastructure built, while the investor gets to make a bit of money before nationalisation. Im not sure who the investors are to DPRK, probally South Korea.

I'd say it's probably China.

[RaiseYourVoice]

The country is richly endowed with natural resources - petroleum, hydropower, fish, forests, and minerals - and is highly dependent on its oil production and international oil prices, with oil and gas accounting for one-third of exports. Only Saudi Arabia and Russia export more oil than Norway. Norway opted to stay out of the EU during a referendum in November 1994; nonetheless, it contributes sizably to the EU budget. The government has moved ahead with privatization.


GDP - composition by sector:
Definition Field Listing
agriculture: 2.2%
industry: 37.2%
services: 60.6% (2005 est.)

Source: CIA world fact book (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/no.html)

So much for norways wealth and how much fish is important :ph34r:

[Karl Marx's Camel]

So much for norways wealth and how much fish is important ph34r.gif

A common myth outside, and even inside Norway, is that oil is what has made Norway rich. However, by those who have studied Norwegian economy more intensively, often say that fish and oil equally have contributed to the economy.
By the way, I assume fish goes under industry (see 'fishing industry'), not agriculture.


And there is still plenty more cheap labor to be exploited elsewhere and they don't need stoop to subservience to the Cuban people.

Well, a lot of U.S. companies are pretty pissed about the embargo. They want to trade and invest in todays Cuba.
Besides, Cuba has many joint ventures with many companies. Pernod Ricard is one example.

[TC]

I have read a bit on Cuba and talked to people who have lived there. I will try to isolate isolated rumours, and post what I believe is correct

My impression, from what I have read, is that Cuba is not that great. Apparently, many Cubans do not even have beds. The casualty clinics are in very bad shape. The hospitals are a little better, but apparently not that great. Medicine is lacking, and there is almost a lack of doctors in the country, now that so many are sent overseas.

The problem with talking to people who have lived there and give anecdotal information is that they have a limited perspective and limited ability to make meaningful comparisons. They might not find an *average* cuban hospital that impressive when compared to a famous *world class* Japanese hospital or something, but they've probably never seen what a slummy Peruvian hospital looks likes.

Both Cuba and the United States for instance, where hit heavily by the same hurricanes in the fall of 2005. In Cuba, the government, actually caring about its people, got everyone in the path out and its medical facilities worked efficently and no one was killed. In the United States, thousands of people were killed although no one will really be able to assess the loss because of how many people were simply washed out to sea or left to rot in the streets beyond the point of recognition, and the casualty clinics were so overwhelmed that they resorted to triage systems, refusing treatment to anyone but people with life threatening but statistically survivable injuries.


The public transport is horrible. You might wait for a bus for hours.

Oh you might wait for a bus for hours...wow...try getting any sort of public transport in most US cities let alone small towns and suburbs. Outside of the most affluent american cities you'd be lucky if the wait between buses or trains was less than hours.


In theory healthcare is free, but in order to get medical care when it is needed, Cubans need to bribe the doctors. But many Cubans do not know where to get 20 dollars (the monthly wage is often 10 dollars).

Cubans have the best health care statistics in the third world and better than in much of the first world (better than America, worse than Japan), i frankly don't believe you.

Cuba has a life expectancy at birth of 77 years, an infant mortality rate of 6.33 per 1000, and a total death rate of 7.19 per 1000, by comparison the United States has a life expectancy at birth of 77 years, an infant mortality rate of 6.5 per 1000 live births, and a death rate of 8.25 per 1,000. Unless Cubans are simply genetically superior to Americans, i would guess Cuban health care and availability of health care is superior to that found in the United States.

Its a lie to say that the Cuban monthly wage is 10 dollars. Cuba does not use a market economy a market priced currency, it has a centralized socialist economy with fixed prices. Cuban Pesos are worth far more than a US dollar for purchasing basic goods and worth far less than US dollars for buying the luxery consumor goods that drive the US market economy. There is no comparison. Dollars are only used by tourists to bring money into the economy they are not used internally anymore.




And the so-called "equality" is more or less non-existant. Some can manage to earn a few hundred bucks a month by doing various black market jobs (stealing cigars from the factory and selling them).


Lol people can make more money illigally through theft in *any country*. The difference between the Cuban socialist sytem and the American capitalist system is that in America, the rich can legally exploit the poor. In Cuba, the rich are considered criminals who go to jail for making more money at the expense of everyone else if they get caught.


Prostitution is widespread. The family sell their daughters, often for as little as 5-10 dollars. If you go to Cuba, prostitutes and hustlers will try to do everything to get money from you.


It sounds like you're promoting really arrogant gringo sterotypes of Cubans, and like, you'd what respect them more if it was for 20 dollars like in an American slum?


Racism is far from abolished. If you are white and have a black girlfriend, both of you are likely to get a lot of trouble with police, who wants to confirm her ID. People look at you in an ugly way, because they think she is a prostitute.


I find that increadibly hard to believe considering that the majority ethnic group in Cuba is mulatto, black/white mixed race, with blacks and whites being minority groups. Given that most Cubans have both European and African ancestors and were presumably the products of 'inter-racial dating' at some point, i have a hard time believing that they have such a big problem with it. It sounds more like you heard one story, probably several places removed from its origin, that you blew up out of all proportion.


I've also been told that Cubans are egoist people. They are supposedly materialistic, and have little moral.


Marxism is a materialist and amoral ideology, what the fuck do you expect, that they all attend church, save themselves for marriage, and don't care about their standard of living as long as they're living holy lives?


* Take back the 5,000 doctors/healthworkers/teachers etc. Cuba has outside Venezuela and Cuba
- That would solve economic problems as well as lack of doctors.


Cuba has more doctors than it needs. One of the results of a socialist economy with an excellent education system that will fund any student from preschool to MD or PhD level is that you have more people becoming doctors than theres need for. By sending unneeded doctors abroad they can increase Cuban diplomatic influence and good will and exchange them for material that Cuba can make use of.


* Open up for foreign investment in areas that the state of Cuba cannot cover.
- That would mean increase of living standards, at least to an extent.
True.

But it could be "richer" if the country would open up. And what would happen? Say stores would open with modern movies. Say bookstores would open, with different material than Che Guevara, Lenin and H.C. Andersen.

Wouldn't that be great? Combined with relatively high taxation and the system Hiero talked about, Cuba would benefit from capitalism, not the other way around...Capitalism does not neccesarily mean raise of living standards. But foreign investment in a socialist society, would actually benefit socialism.


I am not opposed to foreign investment in the context of a socialist centralized economy where the government reinvests foriegn capital in its public collectively owned economy, it can be a practical way to achieve rapid economic growth. The state in such a case, relates to the foreign multinationals as if it was a union, except in that they control the relationship because they have state power where a normal union doesn't.

However, if the private economy exceeds the collective economy than the private economy will effectively run the government, because the government will at that point be getting more of its funding from foreign capital than from domestic worker's owned capital, at which point it would no longer function as a workers state and the situation would deteriorate (because all government officials act in accordance to self interest, which for them means staying in power, and they stay in power by keeping the people who are funding them happy). China is safe in that it is a truely massive country with a massive public economy so it can keep private capital under control, but Cuba is a small country, if it opened up it would risk allowing the private companies to use the public sector rather than the public sector using the private companies.

Cuba was able to use controlled foriegn investment during the 90s in hotels very effectively during the 'special period' to restore the economy after the loss of its socialist trading partners...but this was on a very limited scale. Even a few dozen foreign owned factories could threaten the balance of power in Cuba while they'd be tolerable in a much larger country.


They probably do not, as movies from the 50's are regularily shown. Cuba does have some films produced inside Cuba.

This is really B.S. Cuba has a very active film industry. They show films from other spanish speaking countries in Cuba and their own films. Tomás Gutiérrez Alea for instance was a very famous Cuban director who produced films like Guantanamera, Fresa y chocolate, Hasta cierto punto, a lot of which deal with progressive social issues, and other films that were widely shown in both Cuba and Latin America and Europe.

You can watch movies from the 50s in any country in theatres that specialize in classic film.



* Allow people to have computers (without making an application) and allow people to install antennas to their television set.

Cuba also produces its own television shows and it has 58 different TV broadcast stations that anyone can watch free of charge. Internet is available through public internet cafes and libraries. They decided to open up the computers and connections they have available to the public rather than keeping them restricted to private individuals so that more people could make use of the available resources. You need to apply for a private computer and a private internet connection because you need to justify a particular need to deprive other people of the use of a valuable and relatively rare commodity.

And i don't know what you mean about 'installing antenna's to their television set', all TVs that are meant to recieve broadcast television have antennas or they wouldn't work at all. There are no restrictions against sattilite television in Cuba, in fact Cuba sponsors a satellite television channel called Telesur with Venezuela (which would probably be pretty useless if satellite dishes were illigal don't ya think?)


* Encourage people to speak freely


There is absolute freedom of speech in Cuba, unlike in America and Britian where you can go to jail for 'glorifying terrorism' (i.e. opposing the govenrmnet.) In Cuba, opposition journalists are free to say what they like and print what they like, they only get arrested when they're caught taking money from the CIA out of the American interests section in the swiss embassy. Being an american spy is illigal in cuba as its illigal everywhere else, saying stupid things is not and never has been since the revolution.



* Increase people's rule (democracy) and stop threathen oppositional candidates that are not in line with Castro.


Cuba has by far the most democratic system of government in the world even when compared to the other socialist states. Every bit of legislation from the local assemblies to the national assemblies and council of state can only be ratified if it passes a yes/no popular referendum thus ensuring that no elected officials can take any action that goes against the popular concensus (something unheard of in so called western democracy). Additionally all elected officials are subject to immediate popular recall votes and all private citizens can introduce new laws on their own with sufficent signatures to be voted on in referendums, which the opposition occassionally does its just that they never pass.

Anyone in Cuba over 15 years old can run for office, starting with the local assemblies and then be elected by those assemblies to the regional and national assemblies...some opposition people manage to get into the national assembly, just not very many because they're not very popular and have no support base since most of their mafia buddies packed up and left for miami.

[RaiseYourVoice]

Well, a lot of U.S. companies are pretty pissed about the embargo. They want to trade and invest in todays Cuba.
Besides, Cuba has many joint ventures with many companies. Pernod Ricard is one example.

yes i am sure many companies would LOVE another market to exploit. "investments" are as you should know not economic aid, they want something in return. you think they just throw money at the cuban economy? With your line of argumentation you are probably a supporter of the IMF arent you? they "invest" lots of money into foreign countrys... we should cheer for them! or maybe we read books about international capitalist trade system before?


as for the norway economy. don't post theorys without sources please, or are you yourself an experct on norway?

[rouchambeau]

Awesome culture, but it's too bad they have such a tyrant like Castro.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

The problem with talking to people who have lived there and give anecdotal information is that they have a limited perspective and limited ability to make meaningful comparisons. They might not find an *average* cuban hospital that impressive when compared to a famous *world class* Japanese hospital or something, but they've probably never seen what a slummy Peruvian hospital looks likes.


Both Cuba and the United States for instance, where hit heavily by the same hurricanes in the fall of 2005. In Cuba, the government, actually caring about its people, got everyone in the path out and its medical facilities worked efficently and no one was killed. In the United States, thousands of people were killed although no one will really be able to assess the loss because of how many people were simply washed out to sea or left to rot in the streets beyond the point of recognition, and the casualty clinics were so overwhelmed that they resorted to triage systems, refusing treatment to anyone but people with life threatening but statistically survivable injuries.

Good point.



Oh you might wait for a bus for hours...wow...try getting any sort of public transport in most US cities let alone small towns and suburbs. Outside of the most affluent american cities you'd be lucky if the wait between buses or trains was less than hours.

Really? I did not know public transport is in such a condition in the U.S. Where I live, if the schedule says the bus is coming 14:45, it is extremely rare it passes 15:00. During winter times it is usually a 5 minutes delay.



Cubans have the best health care statistics in the third world and better than in much of the first world (better than America, worse than Japan), i frankly don't believe you.
These are things I have heard by people who have been there, not something I have seen by myself.
It would not, however, be suprising, I think, considering the economic problems in Cuba.


Cuba has a life expectancy at birth of 77 years, an infant mortality rate of 6.33 per 1000
I think it's actually 5,8 (http://www.granma.cu/ingles/2005/enero/lun3/02MORTAL.html)




Its a lie to say that the Cuban monthly wage is 10 dollars. Cuba does not use a market economy a market priced currency, it has a centralized socialist economy with fixed prices. Cuban Pesos are worth far more than a US dollar for purchasing basic goods and worth far less than US dollars for buying the luxery consumor goods that drive the US market economy. There is no comparison. Dollars are only used by tourists to bring money into the economy they are not used internally anymore.
Aren't a lot of the goods that Cubans need, in those dollar shops?





I find that increadibly hard to believe considering that the majority ethnic group in Cuba is mulatto, black/white mixed race, with blacks and whites being minority groups. Given that most Cubans have both European and African ancestors and were presumably the products of 'inter-racial dating' at some point, i have a hard time believing that they have such a big problem with it. It sounds more like you heard one story, probably several places removed from its origin, that you blew up out of all proportion.

The govt. has done much to improve the view of blacks and mulattos. But there are still some traces left. I believe I remember reading that it is mostly families who were previously more privileged, and old people who are the most racist.

I remember reading a book about Cuba... The author talked about the subtle racism... He gave an example. here was a really poor driver, a spanish driver behind that car would say "I'd bet it is a negro", and they drive past that car, and the guy says "exactly", then they shake their heads. I've also read that Cubans often talk of other people based on race. Like for example "I was just talking to the chino over there" (chino for chinese, as Cuba has a small chinese population).




This is really B.S. Cuba has a very active film industry. They show films from other spanish speaking countries in Cuba and their own films. Tomás Gutiérrez Alea for instance was a very famous Cuban director who produced films like Guantanamera, Fresa y chocolate, Hasta cierto punto, a lot of which deal with progressive social issues, and other films that were widely shown in both Cuba and Latin America and Europe.

Absolutely. That was why I said "Cuba does have some films produced inside Cuba."

But have there been many great films produced, since Fresa y chocolate?

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Anyone in Cuba over 15 years old can run for office

I have heard the age is 21.

Everyone 16 or older can vote, so I assume it is higher than 15?



some opposition people manage to get into the national assembly, just not very many because they're not very popular and have no support base since most of their mafia buddies packed up and left for miami.


A rumour (this one I do not have very much "faith" in) presented by this person I know who has lived in Cuba, said that candidates for the municipal assemblies have been "advised"/pressured by the police who have visited them, advising the candidate to not stand for election. Have you heard of this before? I haven't, so I assume it is not very much truth in it...

Do you know names of any opposition people who have managed to get into the national assembly?




as for the norway economy. don't post theorys without sources please, or are you yourself an experct on norway?

I am not an expert, but I do live in Norway.




yes i am sure many companies would LOVE another market to exploit. "investments" are as you should know not economic aid, they want something in return.

If foreign investers build hotels and casinos so that foreigners can spend money there, and the company make profits out of it, yes. Of course. That said, the Cuban govt. can take a huge slump of those moneys. The company will probably stay as long as they see money rolling in.


you think they just throw money at the cuban economy?

If they manage to make some profit out of it, then yes.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 12:28 PM

And there is still plenty more cheap labor to be exploited elsewhere and they don't need stoop to subservience to the Cuban people.

Well, a lot of U.S. companies are pretty pissed about the embargo. They want to trade and invest in todays Cuba.
Besides, Cuba has many joint ventures with many companies. Pernod Ricard is one example.
I'm sure these foreign companies aren't longing for running a business on the workers' terms. Why the fuck would they do that when it's so much easier and cheaper to just go to any other poor country where it's okay to exploit people?

[Karl Marx's Camel]

I'm sure these foreign companies aren't longing for running a business on the workers' terms. Why the fuck would they do that when it's so much easier and cheaper to just go to any other poor country where it's okay to exploit people?

I guess you could phone and ask them.

I assume a pretty much non-competive (sic) market is good for them.

[TC]

I have heard the age is 21.

Everyone 16 or older can vote, so I assume it is higher than 15?



16 year olds can hold office in Local, Provincial and Municipal Assemblies, you have to be 18 to hold office in the National Assembly...this is regulated in the Cuban Constitution (you can find an english language version here http://www.cubanet.org/ref/dis/const_92_e.htm ).

Realistically though such a restriction has little consequence since it would probably be practically impossible to be elected to the National Assembly with a political career of less than 2 years.


A rumour (this one I do not have very much "faith" in) presented by this person I know who has lived in Cuba, said that candidates for the municipal assemblies have been "advised"/pressured by the police who have visited them, advising the candidate to not stand for election. Have you heard of this before? I haven't, so I assume it is not very much truth in it...

Lol politely advising someone that they probably have no chance of getting elected and are wasting their time is hardly police coersion, its not like they're preventing them from running.

Its hard to find good statistics on exactly how many 'opposition' members are in various levels of government as Cuban assemblypeople are unaffiliated to any party and campaign individually (they maybe members of parties or political organizations, but they do not run on their sponsorship because municipal assembly elections are very local affairs, and provincial and national assemblies are elected by the municipal assemblies and ratified by popular vote).


Do you know names of any opposition people who have managed to get into the national assembly?

Yes...Pablo Odén and Raúl Suárez are members of Cuban Council of Churches, a Cuban christian political party, and they're in the national assembly. Raúl Suárez is also a minister in the baptist church.

Oswaldo Payá is probably the most famous anti-castro opposition leader, whose party is called the Christian Liberation Movement, sponsered legislation in the national assembly called the Proyecto Varela, which was heavily supported by the US government and soundly defeated. Oswaldo Payá also travels to hte United States frequently recieves silly awards from American and rightwing european groups, but since he never breaks any laws (or hasn't gotten caught) he's been free to operate openly without any state repression (other then apathy). He ran for a seat in the national assembly supported by his Christian Liberation Movement in 1997 but lost...he has something like 10,000 supporters but he would need at least twice that many to get elected.

[Dreckt]

That is, in my opinion, just a petty excuse. Free speech will not damage Cuba, or any other country for that matter. It will loosen up the domestic, and even international tensions.

I guess you're somewhat right. I don't know - Cuba seems to be such a small nation, and it's military isn't such a pretty sight the last time I heard about it, neither is their technology. On the other hand, Venezuela and Iran both have generally free speach, though their regimes are anti-US, and the US can defeat them both given the right time.


cuba however isnt rich in imperialist companies. a capitalist cuba sure would have much more available goods/movies/computers... thats its only for a proportion of the people and that its on the cost of other countries goes along with it though...

The closest thing that would happen with Cuba if it indeed turns to capitalism would result in something like China today. While Castro is alive this won't happen, but maybe after his death.


International tensions will loosen up that day that castro dies and the americans attack cuba... that is IF they suceed.

If you ask me, I don't think Americans are waiting for an attack. They wait to attack Cuba with money. Really, America has no need for Cuba, since Cuba doesn't have any necessary resources. If they had, well, it would use them.


Wouldn't that be great? Combined with relatively high taxation and the system Hiero talked about, Cuba would benefit from capitalism, not the other way around.

I believe it is this the Cuban government is afraid of. Once they allow one thing, the rest will follow. Capitalism would simply corrupt Cuba.

[Organic Revolution]

ok so this is what im going to do, im going to interject with out reading anything else but the first post. but what do you expect when you turn one totalitarian government to another, under a different flag and cleaned up words.

[TC]

Originally posted by Organic [email protected] 2 2006, 08:45 PM
ok so this is what im going to do, im going to interject with out reading anything else but the first post. but what do you expect when you turn one totalitarian government to another, under a different flag and cleaned up words.
:rolleyes: not doing the reading is why precisely why people believe american propaganda about cuba.

[Comrade_Ryan]

Funny how Anarchists and Social-Dems have the same conclusions about Cuba as the United States Government. Perhaps its that the US government is looking out for Cuba's best interests. :huh:

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by TragicClown
Yes...Pablo Odén and Raúl Suárez are members of Cuban Council of Churches, a Cuban Christian political party, and they're in the National Assembly. Raúl Suárez is also a minister in the Baptist church.

Oswaldo Payá is probably the most famous anti-Castro opposition leader, whose party is called the Christian Liberation Movement, sponsered legislation in the national assembly called the Proyecto Varela, which was heavily supported by the U.S. government and soundly defeated. Oswaldo Payá also travels to hte United States frequently, recieves silly awards from American and rightwing European groups, but since he never breaks any laws (or hasn't gotten caught) he's been free to operate openly without any state repression (other then apathy). He ran for a seat in the National Assembly supported by his Christian Liberation Movement in 1997 but lost...he has something like 10,000 supporters but he would need at least twice that many to get elected.

That's the worst thing that's been said about Cuba in this thread so far.

Maybe in any thread!

How is it that those brazen reactionaries haven't been summarily shot? :o

I keep telling you people: when the U.S. forces arrive in Havana, those motherfucking godsuckers are going to be out there to welcome them with open arms!

Poor Cuba!!! :(

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[TC]

How is it that those brazen reactionaries haven't been summarily shot?


But what would the point of that be? These people are reactionary and pro-US but they aren't like the Miami terrorists like Alpha 66 or Hermanos al Rescate in that they have no weapons and very little money. When the opposition had there "huge rally" of a few dozen people in 05' (they claimed 200 people but if you look at the video tape it looks more like 50 at the most, the US media of course made a HUGE deal about it http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-05...ly_x.htm?csp=34 (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-05-21-cuba-anti-rally_x.htm?csp=34) ), not even a single Cuban cop bothered to show up in order to check it out let alone try to stop it. The fact is that these people are not dangerious because they have no support, they're just a bunch of disenfrancised formally wealthy white people and religious wackos.

For the Cuban government to make any effort to stop them, let alone shoot them, would indicate that it feels threatend by them, which it has no reason to; any action against them would indicate that it takes them seriously which it doesn't. The Cuban administration demonstrates its strength and popularity by the fact that he can afford to ignore these people rather then trying to repress them. Even left utterly unharrased these opposition people are incapable of posing a political threat.

[Organic Revolution]

Originally posted by TragicClown+Apr 2 2006, 03:38 PM--> (TragicClown @ Apr 2 2006, 03:38 PM)
Organic [email protected] 2 2006, 08:45 PM
ok so this is what im going to do, im going to interject with out reading anything else but the first post. but what do you expect when you turn one totalitarian government to another, under a different flag and cleaned up words.
:rolleyes: not doing the reading is why precisely why people believe american propaganda about cuba. [/b]
when did i ever say that i believe in american propaganda. its inevitable that any government (socialist or otherwise) will be heirarchal and terrible.

[Hiero]

However, I mentioned TV-shows and cinema because these are things that make life easier. I'm poor. Yet because I have internet, this make things a little easier. I don't have to buy movies or music, or go to the cinema (now that I have a relatively high bandwidth). Sometimes entertainment can ease the mines of the poor. And I believe that more entertainment in Cuba could make it easier.

Always remember you a living in a imperialist country. No matter what your condition is you are experiencing benifits from imperialism.

You have to think of it this way, 3 examples.

1) You live in a imperialist country, but you are at the say 3rd lowest rung of soceity (so above lumpen proletariat and oppressed nations and oppressed indigenous groups). Things might get bad as saving for a home, paying rent, or medical services may be up to shit. But none the less you still get reasonable food, you get yourself in a well off Union, you get access to welfare, access to new technology, you get limited access to elite culture.

Now conditions for workers in imperialist countries varies I think to 2 things. If there is a good union presence, and the structure of the society.

If there is a good union presence lower groups of society get more share from imperialist profits. If the structure is say Fascist, like in Nazi Germany or Fascist Italy, then certian ethnic groups (usually the majority) in the lower class get benifits from imperialism. Or another structure like Social Imperialism. If a Social Democractic party gains power they may reform imperialism to benifit 1st world workers.

2) You are working class in a 3rd world country. Outside capital is the dominanting force in the country. Unions and real people power parties are restricted, either by military juntas or through secret police, anti terrorism laws, religion under a bougeois democracy. The workers earn little wages and have little social programs to help them with their daily life. Workers have no political power or political knowledge.

3) You are working class in a 3rd world country. The country happens to be socialist. Nationalisation is the current economic system. A populist party is in power. Wages are not as high as imperialist wages, however there are reasonable social programs. These programs make things a little easy. Medicines and hospitals are available to the whole working class, though not very good, they are the best the country can do. Education is a high focus of the party. There is political literacy in the country, many people are encouraged to educate themselves about working class politics. There are many elements of direct democracy, everybody has some ability to speak up about politics through local bodies. The governments is not completly run by the ruling party.

I think these are the 3 scenarios you have to think about when looking at Cuba. Cuba obviously falls in the 3rd. It can't make it into the 1st, and the 1st should be destroyed.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Originally posted by Organic Revolution+Apr 2 2006, 10:04 PM--> (Organic Revolution @ Apr 2 2006, 10:04 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 03:38 PM

Organic [email protected] 2 2006, 08:45 PM
ok so this is what im going to do, im going to interject with out reading anything else but the first post. but what do you expect when you turn one totalitarian government to another, under a different flag and cleaned up words.
:rolleyes: not doing the reading is why precisely why people believe american propaganda about cuba.
when did i ever say that i believe in american propaganda. its inevitable that any government (socialist or otherwise) will be heirarchal and terrible. [/b]
There's a big difference between a totaliraian governemnt which suppresses capitalism and a totalitarian government that suppresses popular freedom.

[RedRevolution]

Despite the best intentions of the revolutionaries, and of Castro himself Cuba is basically feudal. Rather than allowing the historical process they jumped to soon and worked against capitalism. If you do that you get feudalism, if you work with it and make it progress then you get communism. I've posted this in a few other threads but we need to wake up if we want to achieve communism in our life time and stop slowing the inevitable wheels of time.

Capitalism is turning into communism and there's nothing anyone can do about it except by restricting capitalism. Let the workers own the media - what are blogs? What are internet radio stations? What is Linux? The communist revolution is coming, and as must happen capitalism is turning communist without capitalists caring, in fact with their full support. They are becoming communists and if we further this cause then the world can unite as everyone inevitably desires the same thing.

[Cheung Mo]

Castro gets a free pass from some on the left because he is far less bad than Batista was (Being better for Cubans than Batista is about as challenging as outwitting George W. Bush). Meanwhile, he's unfairly demonised by reactionaries for not letting foreign and multinational interests control his country: Castro must be driving not only Washington, but also Beijing, crazy.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by TragicClown
The fact is that these people are not dangerous because they have no support, they're just a bunch of disenfranchised formally wealthy white people and religious wackos.

But in your previous post, you said that Oswaldo Payá and his "Christian Liberation Movement" had about 10,000 supporters (in 1997?).

Is it not the case that organized counter-revolutionary groups like this "spread the rot from within"? They don't need weapons or preparations for insurrection; all they need is popular inconvenience and the habits of reaction (like superstitious beliefs).

The Catholic-supported "Solidarity" had no weapons and needed no plans for insurrection in Poland. Likewise, the East German Lutherans did not have to take a shot at anyone to bring down the Berlin Wall.


The Cuban administration demonstrates its strength and popularity by the fact that it can afford to ignore these people rather than trying to repress them.

No doubt the Polish leftists and the East German leftists used to say the same thing. For all I know, so did the Maoists. (!)

The price of complacency! :o

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[RedRevolution]

Notice how those who bring down 'socialism' are the same class as those who brought down feudalism. That's because socialism is supposed to arise out of the technological process not ideals. When it rises out of the superstructure against the base it inevitably turns feudal/fascist.

[Comrade_Ryan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 06:34 AM
Notice how those who bring down 'socialism' are the same class as those who brought down feudalism. That's because socialism is supposed to arise out of the technological process not ideals. When it rises out of the superstructure against the base it inevitably turns feudal/fascist.
I am assuming you are some weirdo crypto-neo-marxist types of sort who hides in the basement thinking he's going to make a breakthrough in theory and post it on some internet forum some day.

[RedRevolution]

I am assuming you are some weirdo crypto-neo-marxist types of course who hides in the basement.

You assume wrong...and your assumptions bare no scientific relevance. I know it's a terrible feeling to realise that all your actions and support have furthered the cause of historical regression, but you should be happy, as I was, that your ideals were actually correct even if when put into practice they delayed communism when it could be now.

[RaiseYourVoice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 06:49 AM

I am assuming you are some weirdo crypto-neo-marxist types of course who hides in the basement.

You assume wrong...and your assumptions bare no scientific relevance. I know it's a terrible feeling to realise that all your actions and support have furthered the cause of historical regression, but you should be happy, as I was, that your ideals were actually correct even if when put into practice they delayed communism when it could be now.

yes lets wait for marxism to spread.

WAIT

didn't that already happen once? oh yes....
and aren't capitalist nations much further developed now than ever? oh yes...
how come than no communism is arising? because there are no workers fighting for it out there.

As you seem to firmly stick to marxist concepts you should also know that the basis for a revolution is the clear view at societies structures and the oppression. There are though recent developments that totally contradict your view of these conditions arising once again out of nothing.

Mass media:
Every day, every hour of our life we are confronted with mass media, with people telling us whats good and bad. those again are owned by? YES private cooperations.

Globalisation:
No country in the world can still on its own develop the from feudalism to capitalism to communism because about every country in the world is involved in world trade and that is as far as i know pretty capitalised. I could think about organisations like IMF, WTO etc. that were not around at the time of marx so he couldn't forsee them.

Also marx said the concept of communism has to be spread by the party, so how can it happen if no one is fighting for it?

really your wanna-be scientific conclusion about how to achieve world revolution is not very stable and also does not show in depts studies about marxism. i am not saying i did in depts studies but i am not trying to tell people what they should / should not do in order to achieve communism

[RedRevolution]

how come than no communism is arising? because there are no workers fighting for it out there.

It is rising. This website, blogs replacing the capitalist media, linux, music and other file sharing, new voluntaryism, proto-efforts like fairtrade, dance music (sampling) etc. etc. etc. It's just technology (the underlying economic structure) that is driving it, which is why almost everyone supports it as they are being transformed by it


Mass media:
Every day, every hour of our life we are confronted with mass media, with people telling us whats good and bad. those again are owned by? YES private cooperations.

and development is making it obsolete....making capitalism obsolete...


Globalisation:
No country in the world can still on its own develop the from feudalism to capitalism to communism because about every country in the world is involved in world trade and that is as far as i know pretty capitalised. I could think about organisations like IMF, WTO etc. that were not around at the time of marx so he couldn't forsee them.

The world is becoming without borders, exactly what Marx DID predict and as cultural and national lines are blurred in favour of class interests reactionaries like Bush and Bin Laden are fighting it on both sides.


Also marx said the concept of communism has to be spread by the party, so how can it happen if no one is fighting for it?

Marx had many inconsistencies, he was a pioneer that is expected, and we have the benfit of 150 years more evidence. Revolution without the technological base always ends in facsism or feudalism. Whilst the revolution is happening quite naturally at the moment. Be patient, strive to help people through your own means, and wait for the right moment unless you want more gulags and facsism masquerading as socialism.

[Comrade_Ryan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 08:08 AM

how come than no communism is arising? because there are no workers fighting for it out there.

It is rising. This website, blogs replacing the capitalist media, linux, music and other file sharing, new voluntaryism, proto-efforts like fairtrade, dance music (sampling) etc. etc. etc. It's just technology (the underlying economic structure) that is driving it, which is why almost everyone supports it as they are being transformed by it


Mass media:
Every day, every hour of our life we are confronted with mass media, with people telling us whats good and bad. those again are owned by? YES private cooperations.

and development is making it obsolete....making capitalism obsolete...


Globalisation:
No country in the world can still on its own develop the from feudalism to capitalism to communism because about every country in the world is involved in world trade and that is as far as i know pretty capitalised. I could think about organisations like IMF, WTO etc. that were not around at the time of marx so he couldn't forsee them.

The world is becoming without borders, exactly what Marx DID predict and as cultural and national lines are blurred in favour of class interests reactionaries like Bush and Bin Laden are fighting it on both sides.


Also marx said the concept of communism has to be spread by the party, so how can it happen if no one is fighting for it?

Marx had many inconsistencies, he was a pioneer that is expected, and we have the benfit of 150 years more evidence. Revolution without the technological base always ends in facsism or feudalism. Whilst the revolution is happening quite naturally at the moment. Be patient, strive to help people through your own means, and wait for the right moment unless you want more gulags and facsism masquerading as socialism.
cool its like blind people guiding the blind, no offense if you are actually blind redrevolution.

[RaiseYourVoice]

It is rising. This website, blogs replacing the capitalist media, linux, music and other file sharing, new voluntaryism, proto-efforts like fairtrade, dance music (sampling) etc. etc. etc. It's just technology (the underlying economic structure) that is driving it, which is why almost everyone supports it as they are being transformed by it

oh its one of the "internet is socialist"- kids. sorry but we that are affording a computer and posting on a website that has commercials by google on it are actualy funding capitalism. like everyone else is doing too because its inivitable in a capitalist society.

And music sharing is communism? all the commercials on it are communist? actually again this is only available for people with enough money to buy a computer and a decent internet connection from.

i really like your idea of communism, it seems more anarcho-capitalism. even though i dont know any in depts study about anarcho-cappies so please correct me if i am wrong


and development is making it obsolete....making capitalism obsolete...

Companies gaining more and more power over people/governments/country is making them obsolete... interessting...


The world is becoming without borders, exactly what Marx DID predict and as cultural and national lines are blurred in favour of class interests reactionaries like Bush and Bin Laden are fighting it on both sides.

globalisation is not world revolution as far as i know, its the increasing oppression of the working class around the world the last time i checked.


t. Be patient, strive to help people through your own means, and wait for the right moment unless you want more gulags and facsism masquerading as socialism.
yea lets wait in front of the computer, tv or at macdonals. THAT is going to defeat capitalism. the companies will decide to give all their power to the people. next thing you tell me stocks are the first step to peoples power

[RedRevolution]

i really like your idea of communism, it seems more anarcho-capitalism. even though i dont know any in depts study about anarcho-cappies so please correct me if i am wrong

Anarcho-capitalism is interesting but completely unscientifc. If you look at the following link you can see there's no sort of process: http://www.ozarkia.net/bill/anarchism/faq.html


oh its one of the "internet is socialist"- kids. sorry but we that are affording a computer and posting on a website that has commercials by google on it are actualy funding capitalism. like everyone else is doing too because its inivitable in a capitalist society.

Once you have bought a computer (and compauters are getting cheaper and cheaper) the rest is socialist. As for advertising do you think there'll be no provision of information in socialism?


Companies gaining more and more power over people/governments/country is making them obsolete... interessting...

Companies over governments is the first stage (capitalism over feudalism) what follows is the people over companies (communism over capitalism) as shown by the increasing power of the non corporate media, this is just the first instance of the process, that's also shown by mircro-breweries and the like.


globalisation is not world revolution as far as i know, its the increasing oppression of the working class around the world the last time i checked.

As reasoned above it's the decreasing of the state control, which will be followed by a decreasing of the companies control.


yea lets wait in front of the computer, tv or at macdonals. THAT is going to defeat capitalism. the companies will decide to give all their power to the people. next thing you tell me stocks are the first step to peoples power

Holding back progress is holding back our advance to communism.

[Guerrilla22]

Cuba is not a third world country, nor is dirt poor, its got a better health care and education system than the US.

[CLOCKWORK ORANGE]

Let them spend, for example, 12-18 hours in a municipal hospital waiting room waiting to see a doctor.
Countries with a national health care plan have the same problems.


Let them find out what it costs to rent a small apartment in Miami.
It's actually very cheap. My cousin lives in a 2 room apartment with parking for only $550 a month including maintenance. Now a city like NYC, that's a different story.

[RebelDog]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 05:42 PM


Cuba has a life expectancy at birth of 77 years, an infant mortality rate of 6.33 per 1000, and a total death rate of 7.19 per 1000, by comparison the United States has a life expectancy at birth of 77 years, an infant mortality rate of 6.5 per 1000 live births, and a death rate of 8.25 per 1,000. Unless Cubans are simply genetically superior to Americans, i would guess Cuban health care and availability of health care is superior to that found in the United States.



There is no mistake in the life expectancy figures in Cuba and this can only mean that Cubans are getting good healthcare. This figure is approaching that of the UK and in some areas of the UK it far outstrips it. Infant mortality is better than in the capital of the richest country in the world.
You simply cannot have life expectancy like this without decent healthcare and it seems as if its very decent.

We can all argue about Cuba until we are blue in the face but remember that this is a small poor island in a sea of capitalism that is constantly being bullied by its rich neighbour. It may not be perfect but it gives us the hint of proof we need that a socialist world could achieve great things. It also shows what a failure capitalism is. Even if a country is swimming in resources and is the wealthiest in the world it still has terrible poverty, 40million without healthcare and the greatest inequality mankind will ever see. Cuba for all it has, has its priorities correct. Haiti has recieved around $1billion in US aid since the Cuban revolution and has a woeful health service and a life expectancy of 53.
Foreign investment simply means privatisation.

Here is what the president of that infamous capitalist machine the World Bank had to say of Cuba;

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43b/185.html

[Led Zeppelin]

Originally posted by Guerrilla22
Cuba is not a third world country, nor is dirt poor, its got a better health care and education system than the US.

No it doesn't, the Cuban education and health care systems might be universal, but they're sure as hell not better than the systems of the US or western-Europe.

The reason for that is pretty simple; they have more money.

But then again you are doing the same as capitalists do, you're comparing the Cuban system, that is, the system of a third world nation, with a first world imperialist nation. Of course the former is worse than the latter.

However, if you compare it to other capitalist third world nations it is better, that's what "fake socialism" basically is, capitalism with a human face.

[TC]

Originally posted by Marxism-Leninism+Apr 4 2006, 10:57 AM--> (Marxism-Leninism @ Apr 4 2006, 10:57 AM)
Guerrilla22
Cuba is not a third world country, nor is dirt poor, its got a better health care and education system than the US.

No it doesn't, the Cuban education and health care systems might be universal, but they're sure as hell not better than the systems of the US or western-Europe.

The reason for that is pretty simple; they have more money.

But then again you are doing the same as capitalists do, you're comparing the Cuban system, that is, the system of a third world nation, with a first world imperialist nation. Of course the former is worse than the latter.

However, if you compare it to other capitalist third world nations it is better, that's what "fake socialism" basically is, capitalism with a human face. [/b]
No actually if you compare the level of treatment and standard of living the *average* cuban gets to the *average* american, Cubans have stronger health indicators statistically.

Cuban health care might not be as good as the best-healthcare-money-can-buy in America but its better than the healthcare practically available to most americans. Cuba only looks third world whenc compared to the most affluent areas of the country, compare Cuba Havana to rural mississippi and Havana looks fabulously wealthy.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

compare Cuba Havana to rural mississippi and Havana looks fabulously wealthy.

I did a search on "rural mississippi", but I didn't come up with something significant. Could you explain to us in the form of pictures?

[RedRevolution]

Cuba is not a third world country, nor is dirt poor, its got a better health care and education system than the US.

It's so rich and cool that a tenth of the population have risked their lives in leaving....

[Abakua]

Qualify that statistic! Besides more Mexicans try and cross the border everyday than a months worth of Gusano's. Cuba is under seige and at war yet living conditions (I can tell you from first hand experiance) are far superior than in the barrio's and slums across the Carribean and Latin America.

[state's fiend]

To the author of this thread. Have you ever looked at a map of the world? Cuba is only one island but they (the U.S.A.) are 50.

http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/1985----.htm

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Cuba is only one island

Cuba is not a is not a single island. Cuba consist of, depending on the sources I have encountered, everything from 1,500 to over 4,000 islands.

Among them, the "mainland" and Isla de la Juventud.


http://www.globalgeografia.com/satellite/cuba.jpg

Can you see that viking ship? that's Isla de la Juventud.

http://www.iso-log.com/il_skep.jpg

http://www.rentaencuba.com/img/mapas/isla_de_la_juventud.jpg


but they (the U.S.A.) are 50.
?

[state's fiend]

You know what I mean. Don't be a smart aleck. If you add up all the islands that the U.S. has in its possession they far outnumber Cuba's lot.
It's like comparing a pea to a mountain.

[Cheung Mo]

RedRevolution: Your analysis of the Internet's role in undermining capitalism ignores one fundamental thing: In most of the world, captialist interests control the infrastructre of the Internet and most of the Internet's content. Needless to say, as things have started getting too hot and too radical, these interests have bitten back and will continue to bite back (A process that has begun when the American record industry was able to shutdown Napster and that continues to exist.). And when they can't do it on their own, the political interests that they have bought-and-sold will do it for them. Ever hear of the TCPA? RIAA lawsuits? Yep. That's just the beginning.

Also consider that much of the Internet that is not controlled by traditional capitalist interests is controlled by the beauracratic class, whose main desires are to amass more wealth and more power so as to augment their already-comfortable lifestyles. These people wield the power of the censor, which they are using almost constantly: Look, for instance, at China, Saudi Arabia, and Singapore to name but a few examples. How much subversive or revolutionary content can the typical Internet user access in these countries?

Finally, who the fuck is responsible for managing and administrating all of the Internet's technical and structural complexities? Naturally, it's techies, who tend to be cynically apolitical and gravitate without really realising it to a vaguely anti-authoritarian strand of anarcho-capitalism? Can we count on them?

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by TragicClown+Apr 4 2006, 12:35 PM--> (TragicClown @ Apr 4 2006, 12:35 PM)
Originally posted by Marxism-[email protected] 4 2006, 10:57 AM

Guerrilla22
Cuba is not a third world country, nor is dirt poor, its got a better health care and education system than the US.

No it doesn't, the Cuban education and health care systems might be universal, but they're sure as hell not better than the systems of the US or western-Europe.

The reason for that is pretty simple; they have more money.

But then again you are doing the same as capitalists do, you're comparing the Cuban system, that is, the system of a third world nation, with a first world imperialist nation. Of course the former is worse than the latter.

However, if you compare it to other capitalist third world nations it is better, that's what "fake socialism" basically is, capitalism with a human face.
No actually if you compare the level of treatment and standard of living the *average* cuban gets to the *average* american, Cubans have stronger health indicators statistically.

Cuban health care might not be as good as the best-healthcare-money-can-buy in America but its better than the healthcare practically available to most americans. Cuba only looks third world whenc compared to the most affluent areas of the country, compare Cuba Havana to rural mississippi and Havana looks fabulously wealthy. [/b]
Well simply, the average Cuban doesn't rot in front of the Internet, gangster rap, and TV all day, while the average American does all those things whilst making sure to shove down all the fast food available.

Perhaps myself as an American I have a more leisurely lifestyle, but their lifestyle is probably far healthier than most "First Worlders."

[CubaSocialista]

"In the case of Cuba, the United States has done everything it can to drive them into the hands of the Russians -- to ensure that there is a maximum amount of internal repression and brutality inside Cuba to reduce the possibility that it could be a model for anyone else. But there is still this tremendously threatening development. While throughout the whole region that the United States supports and backs, you have torture, murder, starvation, slave labor, and so on and so forth, there is one little corner of Latin America that has actually come to match the standard of living of the United States, which is astonishing. This is the richest country in the world, by any possible measure. Cuba is one of the poorest countries in the world and it has approximately the same quality of life index, in terms of health and so on, that the United States has. That's really scary and that's an enemy. That's what they mean when they say, "We can't tolerate another Cuba." It is bad enough that there is one country that can serve as a model for this kind of development. Suppose there were two, suppose there were three. ... "
--Noam Chomsky


I don't normally agree with you, Mr. Chomsky, but you hit the nail on the head right there.

[Guerrilla22]

Originally posted by Marxism-Leninism+Apr 4 2006, 10:57 AM--> (Marxism-Leninism @ Apr 4 2006, 10:57 AM)
Guerrilla22
Cuba is not a third world country, nor is dirt poor, its got a better health care and education system than the US.

No it doesn't, the Cuban education and health care systems might be universal, but they're sure as hell not better than the systems of the US or western-Europe.

The reason for that is pretty simple; they have more money.

But then again you are doing the same as capitalists do, you're comparing the Cuban system, that is, the system of a third world nation, with a first world imperialist nation. Of course the former is worse than the latter.

However, if you compare it to other capitalist third world nations it is better, that's what "fake socialism" basically is, capitalism with a human face. [/b]
BRITAIN STUDIES CUBAN HEALTHCARE SYSTEM

The Guardian (London), Monday Oct. 2, 2000

By Sarah Boseley, health correspondent

The NHS [British National Health Service] is turning to Cuba for

inspiration on how to improve its services. Officials from the

Department of Heath and 100 Gps [general practitioners] visited the

Caribbean island which, despite being short of medicines and money after

decades of a US-led economic embargo, manages to deliver excellent

healthcare at a fraction of our cost. Later this month a delegation of

Cuban doctors, led by Cuba's deputy health minister, will arrive in

Britain to share the secrets of their success.

The interest in Cuba comes at a time when the Labour government is

intent on radical reforms of the NHS to make it patient-centered and

more cost-effective. Cuba has a stunning record in both regards, with

patient representation at every level, helping to organize the way the

health service is run.

The health secretary, Alan Milburn, has repeatedly said he wants to see

GPs take a leading role in the reform of the NHS, and it is the quality,

dedication and large numbers of family doctors in Cuba that have

contributed most to its impressive health record.

When Fidel Castro came to power, Cuba's mortality rates matched many

other places in the developing world, with a life expectancy of 48 for

men and 54 for women. Now it rivals anywhere in Europe or the US.

Male life expectancy is 74 - the same as in the UK. Women can expect to

live to 76 years old (79 in the UK) and infant mortality is 7.1 per

100,000 births* (see note below) - not much higher than ours.

However, one major difference between Cuba's health statistics and ours

has caught the attention of officials: here, healthcare costs £750 a

head annually. In Cuba it costs £7.

Among those who went on the Cuban trip earlier this year were the

principal medical officer of the Department of Health, Phillip Leach,

the eminent academic Sir Brian Jarman and the president of the Royal

College of GPs, Sir Dennis Pereira Gray.

Patrick Pietroni, a dean of postgraduate general practice at London

University, who led the visit, said: "What we can learn is how they have

managed to produce these healthcare statistics which are sometimes

better than ours at 1% of the expenditure. They have more family

doctors, who are better trained than our GPs.

"When we went to Cuba what was so impressive were the three-story

buildings called consultorio. The ground floor was the practice, the

first floor was the doctor's flat and the second floor was the nurse's

flat. No Cuban lives more than 20 minutes or so from one of these."

They also have fewer patients. Cuba has 30,000 GPs, the same number as

Britain, but has only a fifth of the population. There is one family

doctor per 500 to 700 people in Cuba, compared to one for 1,800 to 2,000

here.

Cuba has 21 medical schools, but Britain has only 12. Cuba has 37,000

practice nurses. The UK, which has a shortage of all nurses, has just

10,300.

Some of the good health of the Cuban nation is, paradoxically, the

product of adversity. Food is rationed and meat is scarce, so much of

the diet is fruit and vegetables. Because there is relatively little

public or private transport, most people walk or cycle everywhere.

Immunization is compulsory and thanks to the interest and investment the

state is prepared to make in health, Cuba has a vaccine for meningitis

B, which is now being investigated in the UK - although the prevalent

strains in Cuba are not the same as here.

But despite the success insiders say many Cuban doctors use the

opportunities they have in traveling to conferences to make contacts and

leave Cuba for more money and better career prospects abroad.

- ----------

* Note, actually, the infant mortality rate is now under 7--6.9/1000

last year. And the number of doctors who seek employment in other

countries is amazingly low considering the large number who work and

travel outside the country and the harsh conditions they live in

compared to what they could be earning in industrialized countries.

Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited

[Jormungand]

Cuba cannot be judged against the United States. They have such different priorities and different policies that it is like comparing apples and oranges. Flashy cars, huge houses, iPods and such are not the values of the Cuban nation.

[chuq]

GALLUP POLL: Cubans Support the Revolution

By Luis Martin

Nov. 6, 1999

An independent, scientific survey conducted in Cuba in 1994 revealed that a significant majority there believes the Revolution has yielded more successes than failures. The great majority of Cubans also blamed the U.S. economic sanctions -rather than the political system- for economic difficulties.

The interviews, conducted by Central American pollsters, canvassed 1,002 Cubans over 75% of the national territory to represent over 70% of the islands population. The poll was designed by the Miami Herald and CID/Gallup, the Costa Rican affiliate of Gallup in Princeton, N.J. Needless to say, the Miami Herald and Cuban exiles did not like the results and no other poll of this kind has been conducted since.

Asked what problems have been caused in Cuba by U.S. economic sanctions, 62% of those familiar with that law said it has created major problems for Cuba, 24% said the usual problems and the remainder gave no response. Followed responses also cited the U.S. blockade as the principal cause of the island's economic problems.

Although the second largest majority chose food shortages to be Cuba's most serious problem, most said to be either completely or partly satisfied with their present consumption. An overwhelming number of respondents also indicated that they believe conditions will improve as a result of government reforms.

The pollsters also concluded from their findings that Cubans are in the main are still willing to support their revolution. Fifty-eight percent said they believe that the achievements of the Revolution -mainly education and health care- far outweighed its failures.

Responding to the question: "who would aid anyone who disagrees with the government", the great majority said "nobody" and the smallest minority chose "political dissidents".

Among other significant findings:

--A majority preferred economic and social equality over individual freedom and an equal number chose government management of agriculture and industry over private ownership.

--The vast majority stated that racial discrimination is virtually non-existent in Cuba.

--Eighty percent were found to disagree with President Clinton's termination of remittances from relatives in the U.S. and trips between the two countries.

--A large majority chose Cuban television and radio as providing the most accurate news about Cuba and the world, over all foreign means of communication including friends and family.

--Ninety-one percent were found to be home owners and 86% of them had fully paid their homes.

--The overwhelming majority of Cubans considered Mexico as their best friend and the U.S. as their worst.

Responding to criticism from likely sources in Miami, Carlos Denton, Director of CID/Gallup in Costa Rica, said in his analysis of the survey: "We conducted the poll to our entire professional satisfaction. We were able to do it because the people could care less whether we were authorized or not, or what we asked." Denton added: "they were not afraid".


Just a little something to add.

[CubaSocialista]

Oh, snap!

Cuba got defended!

[Karl Marx's Camel]

In Cuba, opposition journalists are free to say what they like and print what they like


According to Article 19, Chapter II, Section 3 of the ministry's Resolution No. 383/2001: "The sale of computers, offset printer equipment, mimeographs, photocopiers, and any other mass printing medium, as well as their parts, pieces and accessories, is prohibited to associations, foundations, civic and nonprofit societies, and natural born citizens. In cases where the acquisition of this equipment or parts, pieces and accessories is indispensable, the authorization of the Ministry of Internal Commerce must be solicited."

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,51270,00.html