Kurds riot in Turkey

[WUOrevolt]

Some articles on it:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4860154.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4195484.stm

Some pictures:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41511000/jpg/_41511578_chant_afp220.jpg

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41010000/jpg/_41010584_fire-afp-416.jpg

[Cheung Mo]

I hope they keep it up until Turkey formally recognises and apologises for the Armenian genocide.

[Comrade_Ryan]

The Kurds aren't armenian and their objective is not to get the turkish government to apologize for the massacre of the Armenians. Do you know anything about turkey?

The kurds are fighting for their self-determination and have been for decades.

[Cheung Mo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 03:41 AM
The Kurds aren't armenian and their objective is not to get the turkish government to apologize for the massacre of the Armenians. Do you know anything about turkey?

The kurds are fighting for their self-determination and have been for decades.
Honestly?

It was just a really bad brainfart.

I need to sleep.

[Janus]

Originally posted by BBC News
Turkey's prime minister has warned that the security forces will act against women and children who he said were being used as the "pawns of terrorism".
Three children are among eight people to have died in several days of clashes between Kurds and riot police.

PM Recep Tayyip Erdogan told parents they should not let their children become involved in street protests.

Police fired tear gas to disperse Kurdish protesters on Saturday as more violence erupted in the south-east.

In the town of Kiziltepe, thousands of protesters throwing stones and petrol bombs set fire to at least one bank and the local headquarters of the prime minister's party.

Police also clashed with demonstrators in Silopi, near the border with Iraq, and in nearby Yuksekova, the state-owned Anatolia news agency reported.

Gunshot wounds

The protests in the mainly Kurdish south-east of Turkey began after the funerals of 14 suspected Kurdish rebels killed by the military last weekend.
Children aged nine, seven and three are among those to have been killed in clashes around the provincial capital, Diyarbakir, two of them from gunshot wounds.

Mr Erdogan urged parents not to allow their children to be used by what he described as terrorist organisations.

"If you cry tomorrow, it will be in vain," Anatolia quoted him as saying.

"The security forces will intervene against the pawns of terrorism, no matter if they are children or women. Everybody should realise that."


His government has praised the security forces for their handling of the situation, saying they have acted with restraint.

Ministers have accused Turkish separatist groups of deliberately using children in the protests in order to win sympathy.

Meanwhile, one person was killed and 13 hurt in a bomb attack in Turkey's largest city, Istanbul, on Friday.

The bombing was claimed by a Kurdish separatist group, the TAK, which said it was acting in response to the recent violence.

Both the European Union and the United Nations have expressed concern over rising tensions.

The EU has urged the Turkish government to improve the cultural rights of Kurds and to develop the region's economy.

[Comrade_Ryan]

The PKK aren't leftist. They are nationalist forces. Whatever about the support of the Kurdish nation for the Soveriegnity of Kurdistan. They are backed by the United States.

[bolshevik butcher]

The kurds continue to be oppressed, as they are in Iraq. I think they will be struggeling against racism until they are granted the right to self determination.

[JC1]

The PKK aren't leftist. They are nationalist forces. Whatever about the support of the Kurdish nation for the Soveriegnity of Kurdistan. They are backed by the United States.

If the US backed the Kurd's, why did they not free southern Kurdistan after the invaded Iraq ?

What idiocy. Suppourt Kurdistan's right to self determination !

[Comrade_Ryan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 12:32 AM

The PKK aren't leftist. They are nationalist forces. Whatever about the support of the Kurdish nation for the Soveriegnity of Kurdistan. They are backed by the United States.

If the US backed the Kurd's, why did they not free southern Kurdistan after the invaded Iraq ?

What idiocy. Suppourt Kurdistan's right to self determination !
Of course support their right to self-determination but really shut the fuck up about things you don't know. Its an issue for the kurdish, Turkish and Iraqi proletariat to work out. Not some kid from Winnipeg who MSNs me to tell me that he doesn't have feelings for his friend from school.

[bolshevik butcher]

That's a pathetic outlook. If things arent discussed and noone mentions their opinions then people will never learn and ideas will never be exchanged. This si a message board. its for such discussions.

[Comrade_Ryan]

Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 3 2006, 12:14 PM
That's a pathetic outlook. If things arent discussed and noone mentions their opinions then people will never learn and ideas will never be exchanged. This si a message board. its for such discussions.
okay genius tell the kurds the way forward, what should they do? And as a kid from the States, in your opinion why didn't they have your revolutionary insight in the past?

[Andy Bowden]

What evidence is there that the USA backs the PKK? I knew they were right behind the Kurdish parties in the north of Iraq, but it seems unlikely for them to fund leftists to destabilise a NATO member :blink:

[вор в законе]

I believe that the USA does indeed support the Kurds of Iraq. I seriously doubt they support the PKK though. They will probably attempt to liquidate them in order to create a new separatist group that will be capitalist orientated. Either way Turkey is America's loyal ally and has the largest army in the NATO after the US.

[amanondeathrow]

The PKK aren't leftist. They are nationalist forces. Whatever about the support of the Kurdish nation for the Soveriegnity of Kurdistan. They are backed by the United States.

Nonsense; the United States lists the PKK as an international terrorist group.

In fact the US indirectly supports the Turkish government's campaign against the PKK by providing vast military aid.

[The Grey Blur]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 10:02 PM
The PKK aren't leftist. They are nationalist forces. Whatever about the support of the Kurdish nation for the Soveriegnity of Kurdistan. They are backed by the United States.
They are not backed by the US forces

And I believe Socialists should support the Kurdish movement for self-determination - the chaos in Turkey now just illustrates the anger the Kurds feel at the oppression they have been through


okay genius tell the kurds the way forward, what should they do? And as a kid from the States, in your opinion why didn't they have your revolutionary insight in the past?
When did CF give advice, he simply stated that he supported the Kurdish self-determination movement.

CF comes from Scotland by the way, not America and this attitude that we should not comment on this Turkish situation would be more suited to the MIM-syle condesencion towards the youth in developed countries.

[Janus]

Latest news from Turkey


Originally posted by BBC News
Two more people have died of injuries sustained in clashes between security forces and Kurdish protesters in south-eastern Turkey.
The deaths bring the total number killed in the region to 12. Three others have died in Istanbul.

Violence continued for a seventh day as several hundred Kurdish protesters clashed with police in Viransehir.

The riots began on Tuesday after funerals for 14 suspected Kurdish militants, killed last weekend.

In Viransehir, violence broke out on Monday when police tried to disperse a crowd of about 500 protesters. Some demonstrators had been throwing petrol bombs and stones.

PM warning

The two latest fatalities - a man of 78 and another of 18 - died in hospital in the Kurdish-dominated region's biggest city, Diyarbakir.

A doctor said one of the men, a teenager, was shot in the head.
On Sunday, three women died in Istanbul, after unidentified attackers threw petrol bombs at a bus.

Some 200 pro-Kurdish protesters had blocked roads in the Bagcilar suburb of Istanbul and threw a petrol bomb at a passing bus. The women were killed, reportedly run over as the bus driver manoeuvred to escape the rioters.

In the south-eastern city of Kiziltepe, close to Turkey's border with Syria, reports said a 22-year-old Kurdish man was shot dead by troops in a second day of rioting.

Ankara says the violence has been orchestrated by the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK), branded a terrorist group by Turkey and the EU.

The prime minister has issued a stark warning that police will use force against the rioters, even if the crowds contain women and children.

The BBC's Sarah Rainsford says local politicians in the south-east argue that force is not the answer. They say the scale of support for the unrest reveals deep frustration among many Kurds, who want greater cultural and political rights as well as economic improvement.

Political solution

Aysel Tugluk, co-chairman of largest pro-Kurdish party, the Democratic Society Party (DTP), blamed the government for the deaths and urged it to stop its "policy of violence".



"We condemn all protests that fall outside democratic limits, but in a state based on the rule of law, no weapons can be used against an unarmed protest," the AFP news agency quotes her as saying.

"It is the government and the prime minister who are responsible for all that has happened."

Mrs Tugluk, who said the only solution was a political and democratic one, particularly lamented the fact that several children have been among the dead.

"Children who had no part in the incidents and who were watching the events from the balcony or the park were massacred," she said.

Tensions between the Ankara government and the PKK have risen since 2004, when the group called off a five-year ceasefire.

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by Comrade_Ryan+Apr 3 2006, 12:37 PM--> (Comrade_Ryan @ Apr 3 2006, 12:37 PM)
Clenched [email protected] 3 2006, 12:14 PM
That's a pathetic outlook. If things arent discussed and noone mentions their opinions then people will never learn and ideas will never be exchanged. This si a message board. its for such discussions.
okay genius tell the kurds the way forward, what should they do? And as a kid from the States, in your opinion why didn't they have your revolutionary insight in the past? [/b]
It's not about 'telling people what to do' it's about passing your own analysis on the situation. It's also about learning from past movments mistakes and trying to advance a way forward. I'd like to thank rage for his support. Even if I was from America what difference would it make? Should I not have an opinion? If we are to be active we need to be doing the right things and learning from other socialists mistakes. I dont know if you're active at all or if you just come on these sites to flame people because you just said debate was pointless.

[Disciple of Prometheus]

Though at the moment, I can't say if I am for or against the PKK, because I haven't been presented or read enough information about it, but I think that this is a true "protest against the oppressors," in the very literal sense of the phrase, and I hope the Kurdish people get there liberty, or find some other agreement that would suit them best.

It is also clear to me, that the police there are quick to act violently, they use tear gas constantly, and warning shots, I mean if they have that many police forces why not just arrest the protesters? I mean I think that would prevent "stray bullets," from killing innocent people; moreover how often does a "stray bullet," translate to a head shot? That appears to me more deliberate, and aimed, rather than miss-fire.

[Janus]

"Turk PM hits back at Kurd unrest"


Originally posted by BBC News
Turkish leader Recep Tayyip Erdogan says efforts will continue to improve conditions for the Kurdish minority, after a week of unrest.
However he again attacked Kurdish separatists, warning them "not to dare to test the power of the state."

Fifteen people have died in protests involving Kurds and security forces in Istanbul and the south-east.

Correspondents say Mr Erdogan's remarks - tough yet conciliatory - reflect the pressures he faces over the Kurds.

Hardline nationalists in Ankara have accused him of cosseting the Kurds.

However the EU, which Ankara seeks to join, has been pushing for greater freedom for the minority, largely based in Turkey's impoverished south-east.

The latest unrest was triggered by the funeral last week of separatist militants from the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK), killed in clashes with security forces.

The PKK recently ended a five-year ceasefire and under the new name of Kongra-Gel, revived its armed campaign for Kurdish independence.


'Final convulsion'


Addressing his party on Tuesday, Mr Erdogan said development projects for the Kurds would continue.
"We will not back down from justice and democracy," he said.

While the Kurdish separatists "try to capitalise on hatred and enmity", Mr Erdogan said, "we will build more roads, more hospitals, more schools and more workplaces."

But, he added, his government would not negotiate with pro-Kurdish politicians until they denounced the PKK.

Describing the recent unrest as the PKK's "final convulsion", he said: "Those traitors have emerged again because they know the ground is beginning to slip beneath their feet and they have been buried by history."

Tens of thousands of civilians have died since the PKK began its armed struggle in 1984, prompting a massive clampdown on Kurds by Turkish security forces.

[The Blue Khan]

As a Turk, I don't support the acts of my Euro-Islamic Government but I don't accept the genocide as well. That's one of the feeble tricks of the imperialists trying to get rid of the Turks in the eastern Anatolia. We respect the Armenians and believe that we have to unite in order to deal with the American threat but we don't accept the genocide. We settled here in 1071 and these have been ours ever since. Besides, I am crossbred (half Azerbaijani, half Sunni Turkish (my great grandmother is Azerbaijani, my great grandfather is Sunni)) and both of my great grandparents suffered the genocide that the Armenians commited (the genocide is is the reason why my great granmother had to leave Baku and migrate to Anatolia). An Armenian newspaper published in 1919 clearly boasted that there were 57800 Turks left in Van. They are our fate-brothers but such blames are worthless.

As for the Kurds, they are our true brothers. We established this nation with them and they cannot be seperated from us. PKK isn't a legal organization and yet it is supported by THE UNITED STATES. The Americans want to expand towards northern Mesopotamia to have 100 per cent domination over the two rivers, FIRAT and DICLE. The Israeli want these lands as well because they think that these lands are included inside THE ISRAELI KENAN. They think that this cause is as holy as it is peaceful (!). That's why they are persuading an informed folk to rebel against our nation (which was established with the support of the USSR against the British and the French).

You see, my comrades, these are the cunning schemes of these filthy imperialists. As for our government, it's literally useless and unpatriotic. No matter what please, don't believe in the fascist lies of the European Union!!!!!! WE ARE NOT OPPRESSORS, WE ARE BEING OPPRESSED!!!!!!!!!!!

[Comrade-Z]

As a Turk, I don't support the acts of my Euro-Islamic Government but I don't accept the genocide as well.

Whoa whoa whoa, I think we have a problem here.

And what is it exactly that you think is wrong with the European Union? I don't fully support the EU either, but I'm wondering if my reasons are the same as yours.


That's one of the feeble tricks of the imperialists trying to get rid of the Turks in the eastern Anatolia.

And I guess the Holocaust is just one of the feeble tricks of the "Jewish Bolshevik Conspiracy" to oppress the German people, eh? Nope, not gonna fly.


An Armenian newspaper published in 1919 clearly boasted that there were 57800 Turks left in Van.

Interesting information. I'd like to know more about this. I don't doubt that violence was perpetrated by both sides at various times in history.


We established this nation with them and they cannot be seperated from us.

If they were true brothers of yours, then you would let them do what they wanted, even if that meant separation.


The Americans want to expand towards northern Mesopotamia to have 100 per cent domination over the two rivers, FIRAT and DICLE. The Israeli want these lands as well because they think that these lands are included inside THE ISRAELI KENAN. They think that this cause is as holy as it is peaceful (!).

I don't doubt the imperialistic lust of the U.S. and Israel for huge swaths of the Middle-East (and the world). But what does this have to do with Kurds and Turks. I would doubt that the U.S. government wants an independent Kurdistan any more than the Turkish government. That would kind of interfere with the situation in Iraq, no? Not to mention risk war with Turkey in the future.

[The Blue Khan]

I believe that the EU is nothing but a fascist organization only loyal to its imperialist goals. One of those goals is to get rid of the Turks in Anatolia in order build bases near Russia and to use our revolutionist army for its own goddamn use (send it to fight for Israel against Hezbollah, perhaps?...they did that, by the way, with the support of the UN).

About us torturing the Kurds, WE AREN'T!!!!! I have Kurdish friends and superiors here and they are all loyal to this nation because they also know that there won't be A FREE KURDISTAN! If Kurdistan is established, it'll entirely depend on the USA and Israel because the Kurds are constantly slaying our youth and innocent Turcoman Iraqi citizens near the cities of Kirkuk and Thelafaar (and it is attracting negative attention so they need the Yankees' protection to be safe) . If the USA wanted them to stop, they wouldn't be hiding inside the mountains of Iraq (Mount Kandil to be specific) which is dominated by which nation??? We were living peacefully with the Kurds until the British (and later, the Americans) started to meddle in our nation.

As I said we established this nation with them. The man you see as my avatar is Deniz Gezmis, a man who united the Turkish and Kurdish university students and started a nationwide rebellion with them (it also spread among the folk). They cannot be seperated from us, they are our brothers and besides, who is ruling Turkey while the Kurds are rebelling? A government supported by the Americans. As my father used to say: "The commiter is the one who ends up victorious." Well, we are not victorious, the Kurds aren't... The only victor here is the USA and we are the ones who will change it, when we stop fighting each other!!!!!!!!!!

GET OUT OF OUR HOMELAND, YANKEES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

P.S: About the Holocaust, I believe in it because they have a lot of proofs. The Armenians, in the other hand, don't have such proofs and there are proofs to counter their lie. If you want them I can send it to you via email or via the links in my website.

For the last time,
WE AREN'T OPPRESSORS, WE ARE BEING OPPRESSED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Noah]

P.S: About the Holocaust, I believe in it because they have a lot of proofs. The Armenians, in the other hand, don't have such proofs and there are proofs to counter their lie. If you want them I can send it to you via email or via the links in my in my website.

Bullshit! The Armenian genocide happens and there's visual proof for it unless those Ottoman soldiers standing next to decapitated heads with a grin on their faces were actors? :rolleyes:

Kurdistan is a complex problem, it is not claiming sovereignty from one nation, it wants land off Iraq, Syria and Turkey (I think)...

I support the Kurdish peoples struggle in self-determination the PKK is a great organisation.

They saved my relatives who were fleeing from threats and forced conversion down south and welcomed them with arms wide open, gave them a house by the river (because they are not Muslim but Mandaean and use the river for prayer ritual/baptism) and also gave them jobs.

PKK fighters will keep on fighting in Turkey and I respect them, they deserve sovereignity...but as I understand (my geography is shat) the oil lies all in the north of Iraq thus the Kurdish part, this will not bode well for those living in the south as they will not benefit from the oil industry...I don't think that's fair on the rest of the Iraqi proletriat who could benefit alot from the wealth generated....

I don't think Kurdistan will be established any time soon but it will one day because they are determined so eventually they have to succeed in achieving their own country.

[bcbm]

About us torturing the Kurds, WE AREN'T!!!!!

Oh please. Turkey's rough dealings with the Kurds for the last few decades are pretty well documented. Tens of thousands, probably hundreds, have been tortured and murdered by your state, and you're willing to take its side over the people being oppressed? Pathetic.


The Armenians, in the other hand, don't have such proofs and there are proofs to counter their lie.

What occurred to the Armenians is a bit more complex than what happened in the holocaust, but I think the case for genocide is pretty clear and well-established, despite the rantings of nationalist Turks...


the PKK is a great organisation.

I wouldn't go that far. They've been prone to most of the problems faced by isolated leftist groups- cults of personality, delusions of grandeur, absurd political posturing and suicidal military actions. All in all they haven't accomplished very much (although things like your story show that they aren't total failures), a problem that seems pretty typical of armed parties.