A possible way to fight religion...

[Goatse]

I had a thought when reading the thread about the Bible telling you to kill homosexuals. What if we got verses like that and painted them onto a huge piece of cloth and hung it up on the local church? Ie:


"If a man also lieth with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13)

You could do this for various religions... I bet most Christians don't know half of what's in their holy book.

Thoughts?

[Eleutherios]

Most Christians I talk to about this stuff know that verse is in there, and most of them don't care what's in their holy book (especially the Old Testament). They have all kinds of excuses for the bigotry and barbarism in the Bible.

"It's not the exact word of God. It was written by man, who corrupted it."

"You're just interpreting that verse wrong. It really means...(insert personal beliefs of Christian here)"

"It's not following the letter of the Bible that counts. It's acting in the peaceful spirit of Jesus."

"When Jesus came by he canceled Mosaic law so we don't have to do stuff like stoning gays and sacrificing animals anymore."

"You have to understand the culture of the time. The Bible was written in a different era when hating gays was normal, and for some reason God didn't feel like fighting homophobia back then."

EDIT: You might be interested to know that the Canadian parliament decided a couple years ago that parts of the Bible can be regarded as anti-gay hate literature. Do a Google search for "C-250" and "Bible" if you want to find out about it.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

"It's not the exact word of God. It was written by man, who corrupted it."

man if a Christian said that to me i would slap em in the face, then if they know the bible is corrupted why the fuck do they believe word by word!!!?? in fact, they accept the bible was written by man, but their excuse is that these men were "enlightened" by god himself to write his words. So than how the fuck are you gonna say one lines is corrupted than? christianity and all other religions cancel themselves out as unvalid, its really funny.

[loveme4whoiam]

Nice one; I see a huge white banner with that quote flying from the biggest church I can find... Or perhaps some pamphlets given out wearing a Church get-up?

Does anyone have any othe choice ones, or know where I might find some? Reading the Bible myself to find them isn't exactly top of my reading list.

[redstar2000]

I think it's a great idea...put the banner up real early on a Sunday morning so the worshipers can see it on their way in. :lol:

This is the best source for embarrassing Bible quotes...

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.html

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif

[chaval]

"When Jesus came by he canceled Mosaic law so we don't have to do stuff like stoning gays and sacrificing animals anymore."
tahts technically true
paul in the new testament adressed this a few times i think
he says that before Jesus man was bound by the law. basically people were slaves to the torah. but jesus fulfilled these things for us.
for instance, on sacrifices, if sacrifices kept having to be made then obviously they werent working or at least they werent enough, basically trapped in a cycle of having to make sacrifices. with jesus who is son of God, his death is the ultimate sacrifice, one sacrifice so large that it atones for all of man's sins for all time

in the gospels during the last supper (during passover which recalls God's covenant with the israelites) jesus makes a new covenant "in his blood" , one of salvation for all mankind, so the old testament things are kind of replaced with something better

i have no doubt though that someone will point something else out in the new testament that would seem to disagree

[chaval]

also you cant hang stuff up on someone else's property, youll just get fined or arrested so you got to use some other tactic

[Martyr]

Fighting Ideologies and spiritual beliefs is fighting the invisible battles that can never be won. Your outta luck

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2006, 04:37 PM
also you cant hang stuff up on someone else's property, youll just get fined or arrested so you got to use some other tactic
No, you can do it...just DON'T GET CAUGHT!

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif

[Eleutherios]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2006, 09:36 PM

"When Jesus came by he canceled Mosaic law so we don't have to do stuff like stoning gays and sacrificing animals anymore."
tahts technically true
paul in the new testament adressed this a few times i think
he says that before Jesus man was bound by the law. basically people were slaves to the torah. but jesus fulfilled these things for us.
for instance, on sacrifices, if sacrifices kept having to be made then obviously they werent working or at least they werent enough, basically trapped in a cycle of having to make sacrifices. with jesus who is son of God, his death is the ultimate sacrifice, one sacrifice so large that it atones for all of man's sins for all time

in the gospels during the last supper (during passover which recalls God's covenant with the israelites) jesus makes a new covenant "in his blood" , one of salvation for all mankind, so the old testament things are kind of replaced with something better

i have no doubt though that someone will point something else out in the new testament that would seem to disagree
This is another one of those things that the Bible contradicts itself about. Sure, there are some verses which say Christians don't need to follow Old Testament law, but there are some others which say the law is permanent (and I'm sure Christians have rationalizations for ignoring those verses too).

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/otlaw.html

[CLOCKWORK ORANGE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2006, 05:54 PM
I had a thought when reading the thread about the Bible telling you to kill homosexuals. What if we got verses like that and painted them onto a huge piece of cloth and hung it up on the local church? Ie:


"If a man also lieth with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13)

You could do this for various religions... I bet most Christians don't know half of what's in their holy book.

Thoughts?
I think a good verse to put up is this:


Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonours his head, but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled dishonours her head - it is the same as if her head were shaven. For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil... That is why a woman ought to have a veil on her head, because of the angels... If anyone is disposed to be contentious, we recognize no other practice, nor do the churches of God." Corinthians I 11:3-10,16

Paul basically saying all women should wear veils. So it's not just muslim women. It's Christian women as well.

Christian women have been breaking the rules for so long :lol:

[CLOCKWORK ORANGE]

Oh wow. I just checked out the link Redstar gave out. Look at this one


Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 1 Corinthians 14:34-35

Now this is the one we need to put up in front of churches.

[Eleutherios]

Here's another inconvenient couple of verses that I have never seen a Christian follow:

Originally posted by Deuteronomy 21:18-21
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
Direct parenting advice straight out of the Bible! How come people who espouse "Christian family values" never support the stoning of disobedient sons?

[Disciple of Prometheus]

The best way to destroy religion? Science. Science has proven many of the theories religions hold to be true to be false and non-existant, which would greatly weaken the strangling hold religion has on society, and the people naturally trust scientists to be right. We need to strive for a secular society, but not destroy religion completely (by now it would be impossible to do so), because that would make us "thought police," and no different from the fascists, that try to force religion down everyone's throat. I think the banner idea is a good idea, because it shows to all the audience watching it what their doctrine says about a certain subject, and does not deface the building permanently so that your message would be overlooked because of it. I say do this for all religious fascists.

"Holy," Bible:

Dueteronomy 22:28-29: If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

Deuteronomy 22:23-24 : If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

Leviticus 20:27 : A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death.

Leviticus 20:9: All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense.

Leviticus 20:13 : If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.

Deuteronomy 22:20-21: But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst.

Deuteronomy 13:7-12: If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst.

Koran:

II/223: Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate). So go to your tilth as ye will…

IV/34: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made one of them to excel the other… As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them & banish them to beds apart, & scourge them.

IV/15: (For women) If any of your women is guilty of lewdness… confine them until death claims them.

IV/16: (For men) If 2 men among you commit indecency (sodomy) punish them both.

IX/5: Then when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, & take them (captive), & besiege them, & prepare for them each ambush.

IX/73: Oh Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers & the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey’s end.

LXIX/30-37: (It will be said) Take him & fetter him & expose him to hell fire. And then insert him in a chain whereof the length is 70 cubits. Lo! He used not to believe in Allah the tremendous, & urged not on the feeding of the wretched. Therefore hath he no lover hear this day or any food save filth which none but sinners eat.

IX/123: O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you & let them find harshness in you & know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).

IV/144: O ye who believe! Choose not disbelievers for your friends in place of believers. Would you give Allah a clear warrant against you?

[chaval]

Here's another inconvenient couple of verses that I have never seen a Christian follow:

QUOTE (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.


Direct parenting advice straight out of the Bible! How come people who espouse "Christian family values" never support the stoning of disobedient sons?

funny story, a rabbi i know was telling me about this story. said that a long time ago the rabbis got together to discuss the bible and when they got to this they were trying to interpret it. when it comes to laws of the torah the bible tends to be very vague
so they would ask what constitutes a rebillious son? how rebellious does he have to be? and what if the parents dont want to take him out and stone him? and what if they cant hold him because he runs away or they are not strong enough to hold him? and must they be holding him when they make the decleration? and what if they are mute and cant declare it? and what if there is only one parent? it went on and on like this until they came to the conclusions that there were so many things that could interfere with this and it was so unclear that therefore there was no such thing as a rebellious son (thats a joke btw) but what they really concluded was that the story was trying to teach them something else more important and more meaningful than throw stones at rebellious kids (though this probably did happen)

there is the esoteric meaning, not just exoteric, the former being much more important and essence of the real truth. there is the belief (at least in some jewish teachign) that much of the truth in the bible is hidden from the reader to protect him because the ignorant would not understand it or they wouldnt be able to handle it, similar idea is that the truth cannot be put into words, Gods nature is mysterious and thus his truth reflected in the bible is ineffable and can only be alluded to through stories and symbols. lastly also (kabbalic) idea that when it was written much meaning was hidden in the way words were written. this stems from the idea that there were books instructing people on how to copy out the bible. each letter had to be written in a special way. same words would be written differently, crowns of words would be changed etc etc each word and letter had to be perfectly written and was usually unique in some way. the original bible was written as one long word without vowels (i think) which would allow for more interpretation and the fact taht the same word can have multiple meanings.

so perhaps the true essence, the ultimate essence of the old testament is untranslatable and thus much is lost in its translation. the new testament is regarded as being much more straightforward. since the essence of it was meant for jews and gentiles alike, its core message had to be translatable

[Eleutherios]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2006, 02:12 AM
the original bible was written as one long word without vowels (i think) which would allow for more interpretation and the fact taht the same word can have multiple meanings.
Interesting. Muslims do the exact opposite. Like Hebrew, Arabic is usually written without vowels, and this sometimes causes ambiguity, but the Qur'an and quotations from it are always written with every vowel marked so that the meaning is as clear as possible.

[Goatse]

the original bible was written as one long word without vowels (i think) which would allow for more interpretation and the fact taht the same word can have multiple meanings.

I'm sure the thing about killing homosexuals and people who follow other beliefs was just a mistranlation. Perhaps "stone" is synonymous with "accept into society" in Hebrew?

[Axel1917]

This absurd idea of hanging things on churches is going to get the same community response as vandalism; it is just going to give you a bad name. If you don't have better things to do than to go around vandalizing things, something is wrong with you.

Religion will naturally disappear when people have more control over their lives, i.e. capitalism is overthrown and peoples' lives are not subject to blind market forces. When capitalism is gone, religion will also no longer be a tool of the state, weaking its influence, or at least weeding out the ultra-reactionary religious right types.


"In the free society there can be no religious worship; for every member of it has got beyond the primitive childish superstition that there are beings, behind nature or above it, who can be influenced by sacrifices or prayers" {D. Ph. 286}. A "socialitarian system, rightly conceived, has therefore ... to abolish all the paraphernalia of religious magic, and therewith all the essential elements of religious worship" {D. C. 345}.

Religion is being prohibited.

All religion, however, is nothing but the fantastic reflection in men's minds of those external forces which control their daily life, a reflection in which the terrestrial forces assume the form of supernatural forces. In the beginnings of history it was the forces of nature which were first so reflected, and which in the course of further evolution underwent the most manifold and varied personifications among the various peoples. This early process has been traced back by comparative mythology, at least in the case of the Indo-European peoples, to its origin in the Indian Vedas, and in its further evolution it has been demonstrated in detail among the Indians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Germans and, so far as material is available, also among the Celts, Lithuanians and Slavs. But it is not long before, side by side with the forces of nature, social forces begin to be active — forces which confront man as equally alien and at first equally inexplicable, dominating him with the same apparent natural necessity as the forces of nature themselves. The fantastic figures, which at first only reflected the mysterious forces of nature, at this point acquire social attributes, become representatives of the forces of history. *16 At a still further stage of evolution, all the natural and social attributes of the numerous gods are transferred to one almighty god, who is but a reflection of the abstract man. Such was the origin of monotheism, which was historically the last product of the vulgarised philosophy of the later Greeks and found its incarnation in the exclusively national god of the Jews, Jehovah. In this convenient, handy and universally adaptable form, religion can continue to exist as the immediate, that is, the sentimental form of men's relation to the alien, natural and social, forces which dominate them, so long as men remain under the control of these forces. However, we have seen repeatedly that in existing bourgeois society men are dominated by the economic conditions created by themselves, by the means of production which they themselves have produced, as if by an alien force. The actual basis of the religious reflective activity therefore continues to exist, and with it the religious reflection itself. And although bourgeois political economy has given a certain insight into the causal connection of this alien domination, this makes no essential difference. Bourgeois economics can neither prevent crises in general, nor protect the individual capitalists from losses, bad debts and bankruptcy, nor secure the individual workers against unemployment and destitution. It is still true that man proposes and God (that is, the alien domination of the capitalist mode of production) disposes. Mere knowledge, even if it went much further and deeper than that of bourgeois economic science, is not enough to bring social forces under the domination of society. What is above all necessary for this, is a social act. And when this act has been accomplished, when society, by taking possession of all means of production and using them on a planned basis, has freed itself and all its members from the bondage in which they are now held by these means of production which they themselves have produced but which confront them as an irresistible alien force, when therefore man no longer merely proposes, but also disposes — only then will the last alien force which is still reflected in religion vanish; and with it will also vanish the religious reflection itself, for the simple reason that then there will be nothing left to reflect.

Herr Dühring, however, cannot wait until religion dies this, its natural, death. He proceeds in more deep-rooted fashion. He out-Bismarcks Bismarck; he decrees sharper May laws [127] not merely against Catholicism, but against all religion whatsoever; he incites his gendarmes of the future against religion, and thereby helps it to martyrdom and a prolonged lease of life. Wherever we turn, we find specifically Prussian socialism.

-Friedrich Engels, Anti Dühring

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Axel Iron Bolshevik Discipline 1917
This absurd idea of hanging things on churches is going to get the same community response as vandalism; it is just going to give you a bad name. If you don't have better things to do than to go around vandalizing things, something is wrong with you.

Yes...everyone will know that no humble follower of Chairman Ted could possibly be responsible. :lol:


Religion will naturally disappear when people have more control over their lives, i.e. capitalism is overthrown and peoples' lives are not subject to blind market forces.

It will just quietly "disappear into the night"...no fuss, no mess, no problem.

People will transfer their superstitious behavior patterns to the "Great Leader"...who will perform regularly scheduled miracles on Sunday morning dummyvision. :lol:

As usual, Axel1917 follows up with an inspiring quote from the "holy scriptures"...in this case a long quote from Engels.

Displaying his customary disregard for the fact that things have changed since Engels' optimistic forecast...and religion has proved to be both more tenacious and far more reactionary than Engels realized.

The idea that religion has to be defeated before proletarian revolution is possible completely escapes him.

Pax vobiscum, you poor bastard. :(

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif

[Axel1917]

Yes...everyone will know that no humble follower of Chairman Ted could possibly be responsible. :lol:

Seriously, such vandalism will get you nowhere. Prove that Marx advocated such nonsense.


It will just quietly "disappear into the night"...no fuss, no mess, no problem.

People will transfer their superstitious behavior patterns to the "Great Leader"...who will perform regularly scheduled miracles on Sunday morning dummyvision. :lol:

Prove it. With science freed from capitalist greed, it would only become more widespread, and televangelists preaching lies to make money would not be happenin in socialist society.


As usual, Axel1917 follows up with an inspiring quote from the "holy scriptures"...in this case a long quote from Engels.

This is your usual habit. Instead of actually trying to bother reading something, you just write it off as "holy scripture." I could just as easily call the redstar2000 papers "holy scripture."


Displaying his customary disregard for the fact that things have changed since Engels' optimistic forecast...and religion has proved to be both more tenacious and far more reactionary than Engels realized.

Organized religion is not doing very well in Europe. Atheism has grown as well, but not to an extent to make the religous a minority. Regardless, honest religious people that wish to join the struggle against capitalism should be allowed to do as such. To deny them would be extreme anti-Marxist sectarianism. I would like to see you prove that Marx, Engels, Lenin, and Trotsky advocated doing that.


has to be defeated[/b] before proletarian revolution is possible completely escapes him.

This is grade A nonsense. The Bolshevik revolution had happened without this happening. If it did not get isolated in a backward nation, capitalism would not be around today. I also don't see any evidence that a majority of the people in the Paris Commune were atheists when they had revolted either. This disproves your nonsense.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Axel Iron Bolshevik Discipline 1917
Regardless, honest religious people that wish to join the struggle against capitalism should be allowed to do as such.

"Honest" and "religious"? :lol:

How about "bourgeois" and "proletarian"?

If you believe in the former, the latter shouldn't give you any problems. :lol:

Let's face it, Axel, you just want to suck up to the godracket like all the other Trotskyists do...so you'll rummage through the pages of Marx and Engels to "find some quotes" to "justify" your own wretched tail-ism. Others here have "used" Luxemburg and Lenin for the same purpose.

It fools no one. :D

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif

[Axel1917]

From redstar2000:




"Honest" and "religious"? :lol:

By honest, I was referring to one who does not allow himself/herself to be fooled by the religious right, are non-fundamentalist, etc.


How about "bourgeois" and "proletarian"?

There are quite few religious proletarians out there.


If you believe in the former, the latter shouldn't give you any problems. :lol:

I don't support the reactionary Bourgeoisie.


Let's face it, Axel, you just want to suck up to the godracket like all the other Trotskyists do...so you'll rummage through the pages of Marx and Engels to "find some quotes" to "justify" your own wretched tail-ism. Others here have "used" Luxemburg and Lenin for the same purpose.

I am not an opportunist, and you have obviously failed to prove that Marx, Engels, Lenin, and Trotsky agreed with your anti-Marxist nonsense. I have already proven that they back me up here.


It fools no one. :D

You are only fooling yourself.

[Eleutherios]

If you ask me, it seems more likely that religion will die before capitalism does. There are 1.1 billion non-religious people on the planet, which is larger than any religious group except for Christianity. Just imagine if there were that many people out there opposed to private property!