Welfare Abusers

[Sniper_CR]

what is the stance toward american welfare abusers (i.e using foodstamps to buy luxury items, abusing the system. )by the socialist (marixist-leninist)

[Amusing Scrotum]

If they can manage to get away with it, I say well done!

Work, under the despotism of capital, is shit, and therefore, if you can manage to sustain yourself -- not in the primitivist sense -- without having to work for some Capitalist bastard, then I say go for it!

However, it should be noted that many people "on welfare" are unable to find employment and the tiny amount of state support they get doesn't go far enough with regards enabling them to sustain themselves in a decent way.

But, if you can manage to get welfare and do something you enjoy to boost your income without getting caught by the authorities, then I don't mind at all.

[OkaCrisis]

Fuck the welfare system. If you can manage to milk it, go for it.

Welfare recipients are stereotyped as theifs and criminals, when in fact only 3% of users (in Ontario) actually ever commit any type of offense (usually fraud). The other 97% are suvielled mercilessly, and treated like scum by the system.

In Toronto, the highest welfare payment a person can recieve doesn't even cover rent for the shittiest bachelors in the city. It certainly doesn't cover food either, especially now that the Special Diet allowance has been revoked (was extra money to cover nutritious food for malnourished people, or people with special dietary requirements).

Welfare sucks. That's what I think about it.

[Dreckt]

I disagree somewhat. I believe that a wellfare system is a good safety net "in case of" any unwanted situation. Would you rather have nothing at all than a wellfare system, even a weak one?

Was it not prooven that countries with a stable wellfare have lower rates of crime?

[The Grey Blur]

Without a welfare system, proletarian discontent would explode, right?

[Sniper_CR]

but what about those that simply leech off of it, even in a socialist society how will we deal with those that are lethargic and refuse to get a job. for example those that currently abuse the welfare system , although capable of working they sit around doing nothing and receive government money and in doing so anger those that work and pay taxes.

[Dreckt]

Without a welfare system, proletarian discontent would explode, right?

Hmm, you're right. But I would rather say that a collapsing wellfare system would help much more than none at all, since all people will loose something.


but what about those that simply leech off of it, even in a socialist society how will we deal with those that are lethargic and refuse to get a job.

This is actually one of the arguing points of capitalism - would people do anything without bosses? Yes, they would. People have to do something. Unless you're not mentally or physically incapable of doing things, you just have to do something.


for example those that currently abuse the welfare system , although capable of working they sit around doing nothing and receive government money and in doing so anger those that work and pay taxes.

Of course they abuse it in a capitalist society. It's easier to do nothing than to go to a workplace where you are forced to obey your boss and where you are treated as a slave, and have no control of what you are doing (because you don't own it). In a society such as capitalism people tend to become abusive, selfish and so on.

[Sugar Hill Kevis]

I don't have much quarrel with welfare abusers. I feel that everyone should at least be giving something to society though, such as through taxes etc, that's where I have mixed feelings about welfare scammers, its beating the system but isn't it also taking some away from those who need it or costing the tax payer unecessarily more?

How would you guys argue your points to a conservative, it's a point I often have a lot of arguements with concerning my more right wing associates...

[Jimmie Higgins]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 07:12 PM
but what about those that simply leech off of it, even in a socialist society how will we deal with those that are lethargic and refuse to get a job. for example those that currently abuse the welfare system , although capable of working they sit around doing nothing and receive government money and in doing so anger those that work and pay taxes.
There are two questiuons here:

What is the attitude of radicals about people who use the welfare system under capitalism? And what happens in a socialist society if someone dosn't want to work.

Well these are related questions but first we should all be clear that "welfare queens" who abuse welfare and have kids to get food stamps is a fiction made up by the right wing in the US to justify a series of attacks on workers. Additionally, I don't think this is of much concern because you can not abuse what the Democrats and Republicans have totally gutted and dismantled.

Are there people who try to take advantage of the system? Of corse there are and we call them CEOs. No, in all seriousness, many workers and the unemployed or lumpen probably do take advantage of the welfare system and this happens because of a number of reasons; welfare has been drastically cut and it's hard enough for workers to survive let alone people who get a few hundred bucks a month from the welfare system; there is not enough jobs that pay well enough to survive in the first place; people are alienated from work in capitalist society.

In a socialist society, alienation would not exist because you would have control over your work and decision making power. And since such a society would probably have full employment as one of its first and highest priorities, you would have the option to work and it would be in your intrests. We can't be sure about the specifics, but I feel that the unemployed would want to join with the workers because in many revolutionary situations around the world, often unemployed organiozations have formed to support the revolutionaries and the striking unions.

As to the question of would the dismantleing of the welfare state anger the working class. Sure it would, but anger dosn't always turn into organized or even spontainious rebellion. If all it took for people to become revolutionary, then the civil rights movement wouldn't have happened post-WWII when blacks were entering the manufactureing workforce, it would have happened in the 70s and 80s when the urban black workforce was basically removed from the auto-industry and other blue-collar jobs.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 08:41 PM
How would you guys argue your points to a conservative, it's a point I often have a lot of arguements with concerning my more right wing associates...
Well if they are workers, then you need to argue that welfare is in the intrests of workers and no welfare drive down wages for all workers. It is in worker's intrests in capitalism to have a welfare system because (aside from the fact they may be laid-off and need it one day) without a safty net, wages will be driven down and employers could fire full-timers and have their pick of day-laborers. This is true even in more skilled positions. Look at how the unemployment of the white-collar secotor has led to "temps" who get paid less and don't have benifits and can be easily fired.

As weak as the welfare system is, it takes some pressure off the unemplyed and so they can at least hold out for a better job rather than taken whatever they can.

If you're associates are not working class and they complain about welfare, explain how not having welfare leads the unemployed to turn to crime... then take out your switchblade and cut thoes MFs before you take their wallet!

[Sugar Hill Kevis]

thanks :D

sadly they're the working class types who are convinced immigrants come to this country to sponge all they can without putting back into society...

[Jimmie Higgins]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2006, 06:48 PM
thanks :D

sadly they're the working class types who are convinced immigrants come to this country to sponge all they can without putting back into society...
I wish the anti-immigrent types would make up their mind? Next time they say some shit like that, say "which is it"? What anti-immigrent stereotype are you using today? Are they taking our jobs or are they lazy and on welfare? They can't be both lazy and taking "our" jobs! Make up your tiny little mind!

[Atlas Swallowed]

The jobs where I live are few and mostly low paying. Many people are milking the system because it pays more than working. Unfortunatly it has become a way of life for many people and passing from one generation to the next. Ignorance, domestic violence and alcoholism seems to be thier predominant traits. I have no problem with those that need it getting it, but people who scam the system to live useless counter productive lives I have only contempt for.

My wife and I both work full time. She was better off financially when we were sepereated working part time because of the welfare system(and every spare penny I had I made sure was going to my son). Once she told the state we were together again they took me court and I had to pay for some of the benefits she recieved. Which I had no problem with, all they had to do was bill me and bringing me to court was kind of unecessary. The part that upsets me is it makes it beneficial for couples to seperate. Alot of people pretend to be seperated and scam. I think this is bull shit though, alot of people in government want to shit can these benefits and scammers give them an excuse. The ones that truly need them will be the ones to suffer. Honesty is ususally the best way to go because it all is not about you.