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spoonmonger
27th March 2006, 17:49
Religious Intolerance Breeds Religious Fundamentalism and Not Vice-Versa

We live in a climate of political uncertainty. Traditional left-right politics is on the decline, with moral, ethical and single-issue politics on the increase. Religious ideology is taking centre stage due to the corporate controlled mass media exploiting it to cover up for the real socio-economic issues of traditional left-right politics. They are able to achieve this due to the bitter rivalry between the Christian Fundamentalist Bush Administration and the Islamic Fundamentalist Al-Qaeda. With this taking affect on a global scale, increasing amounts of people are scrutinising religion in all forms (since the media rarely scrutinises itself).

It is seems that there is no option except either with religion (neo-conservatism) or against religion (neo-liberalism).

Karl Marx is famously quoted as saying:

"Religion is the opium of the masses"

Sadly for the real intention of this social observation, it was viewed by many centralist figures as an attack on religion and implying it should be eradicated just like a drugs problem. The people, who interpreted this quote in this way although maybe not far right, still preach and agree with religious intolerance. This goes back to the unfortunate fact the corporate media use religion as a smoke screen for the real problems in society, primarily that of inequality.

However like all drugs problems the cause of it is missed. Karl Marx's real intentions for the previous quote were not to create an entirely secular society devoid of all religion are clearer in a lesser-known quote:

"Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."

This is a very alternative look on religion. Most centralists suggest that religion in its simplest form is the cause of inequality. Marx makes the suggestion that religion is in fact the by-product of inequality within a society, that a secular society is only possible as long as the oppression and suffering within societies are exterminated. Upon reflection of this, it is clear there is in fact a strong correlation between oppressed societies and religious fundamentalism.

The proof for religion being a by-product not cause of ills in society are vivid within modern day societies (as well as the former feudal societies). Why is it that religious fundamentalism arises only in societies with large amounts of inequality. One example would have to be America. It is prudent to use America as an example because it is an industrialised nation and claims to be at the fore-front of progress and therefore cannot fall to the argument that it is simply a backwards society. However it is one of the most divided countries in the world (proven by the aftermath of hurricane Katrina) and within it lays a large contingent of Christian fundamentalists. Compare it with other industrialised nations, religious fundamentalism seems close to non-existent, due to a greater level of equality and social support.

The less prudent example would be the middle east as many people on the far-right say it is a backwards society and naively believe that underdeveloped societies develop religious fundamentalism. However, the Middle East can be used as an example of how an exploited society will resort to religion as a means to escape the exploitation. Therefore, the societies themselves are not to blame. Instead it is the exploitative societies (mainly western) that are creating this feeling of desperation particularly within the youth. The situation I am referring to is the West's cravings for oil. As a result of this dependence, the Iraq conflict emerged. This resulted in (at the time of writing) approximately 35,000 civilian deaths in Iraq (source: Iraqbodycount.org based on average of minimum and maximum possible deaths). As a result, just like many downtrodden societies, they turn to violence and due to American military dominance the most available outlet for this violence is "martyrdom". The west has no one else but itself to blame for the increase in terrorist activities. Even before the conflict, there was oppression and as a result, fundamentalism occurred. However before the intervention of western societies, although religion was still there as it was a feudal society, it had not suffered the oppression which capitalism inflicts, hence less extreme responses to poor conditions.

One issue that is raised is that, isn't Bush religious and at the same time the oppressor? Yes, it is true that Bush is religious however not the extent of fundamentalism. Like most oppressors, he uses people's fears to seize control. In the case of American public opinion, he uses religion to either defend his actions or uses it as a way of creating a smoke screen for his failures (for example raising the issue of same sex marriages to cover up for his economic failures). He is simply yet affectively playing off the inequality that lies within American society and re-creating the old witch hunting attitude of either being with us (patriotic) or against us (enemy of the state) with little or no room for questioning his regime among the masses.

This leads to Marx's meaning that religion is simply an outcry against injustice. Since the fall of feudalism as the class divides have started closing in religion has been on the decline. Marx is saying, don't eradicate religion, eradicate social injustice and inequality as that is the cause of religion and people will no longer feel they have to resort to religious fundamentalism. It is a good lesson to learn that acceptance and tolerance can lead to peaceful societies, whereas hatred and apathy lead to injustice, exploitation and inequality. Religious and social tolerance is key to a fairer and peaceful society. People will not feel as though they have to resort to such extreme measure such as martyrdom or preaching hatred, as they would feel accepted and an asset to society.

I hope this article evokes people to research the relationships between inequality and the phenomenon of religious fundamentalism. My wish would be for this to lead to a greater understanding of religion as not simply a scorn on the Earth, instead it being a voice for the unheard, a lifestyle and something to be admired for all the benefits it has brought to societies. Lastly for the extreme practices of religion to be viewed with a level of understanding and empathy, for people to realise that suppressing it, will only fan the flames further.

redstar2000
27th March 2006, 22:43
Originally posted by spoonmonger
Religious Intolerance Breeds Religious Fundamentalism and Not Vice-Versa

"Fundamentalism" is built-in to the religious paradigm. Non-believers "must" be either converted or killed. Or if those two options are not yet available, then non-believers should at the very least be subjugated and compelled to behave according to the standards of the dominant religion.

A woman can practice Christianity in a Muslim country...but she had still better "cover up" when she goes out in public.


Religious ideology is taking centre stage due to the corporate controlled mass media exploiting it to cover up for the real socio-economic issues of traditional left-right politics.

The American "mass media" exist to make a profit. They're certainly willing to act as an enthusiastic mouthpiece for the government...as seen during the "run up" to the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. But they are not "policy-makers" in the usual sense of that word.


It seems that there is no option except either with religion (neo-conservatism) or against religion (neo-liberalism).

That's a terrible mis-use of the word "liberalism". Most bourgeois liberals in the U.S. are quite "tolerant" of religion. An outright attack on any one of those mindless superstitions is as rare as the proverbial "hen's teeth".

Indeed, your own post would fit seamlessly into any bourgeois liberal magazine -- with the exception of the references to Marx that you inserted to make your post seem "relevant" to us.


The people, who interpreted this quote in this way although maybe not far right, still preach and agree with religious intolerance.

Believe it or not, communists do not develop their views out of a mindless reverence for the "holy words" of "St. Karl".

I am intolerant of all religions because historical experience has revealed them to be reactionary in theory and practice.

I wouldn't give a shit if Marx had never brought the subject up at all.


Karl Marx's real intentions for the previous quote were not to create an entirely secular society devoid of all religion are clearer in a lesser-known quote...

Marx and Engels thought that religion would "wither away" after communism was established...along with a lot of other things.

What seems quite clear to me is that it ain't going without a fight!


Most centralists suggest that religion in its simplest form is the cause of inequality.

Centralists?

I don't know what you mean by that word, but I can tell you that no Marxist would suggest that religion "causes inequality".

What religions have always done is provide "cosmic justification" for inequality...admonishing the wealthy to be charitable and the poor to accept their fate as the "Will of God".


Why is it that religious fundamentalism arises only in societies with large amounts of inequality.

Those are the only kinds of societies that exist.


In the case of American public opinion, [Bush] uses religion to either defend his actions or uses it as a way of creating a smoke screen for his failures...

I daresay he does...it's an old "American tradition". But keep in mind that it was not Bush who called into existence Christian Fascists; it was Christian Fascists who mobilized in support of Bush!


This leads to Marx's meaning that religion is simply an outcry against injustice.

I think Marx "got sloppy" on that one. :(


It is a good lesson to learn that acceptance and tolerance can lead to peaceful societies, whereas hatred and apathy lead to injustice, exploitation and inequality.

No, injustice, exploitation, and inequality all arise from the existence of class societies...which in turn arise from the available technology.

Capitalism is not "peaceful" and no amount of sucking up to superstition (Christian or Muslim) is going to "make it so".


My wish would be for this to lead to a greater understanding of religion as not simply a scorn on the Earth, instead it being a voice for the unheard, a lifestyle and something to be admired for all the benefits it has brought to societies.

Benefits? You mean like ridding us of the noxious presence of heretics and "witches"?

Or infidels? :lol:

The only people who have ever "benefited" from religion are the ruling classes.


Lastly for the extreme practices of religion to be viewed with a level of understanding and empathy, for people to realise that suppressing it, will only fan the flames further.

We'll see about that...after the revolution. :D

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif

Severian
28th March 2006, 03:16
Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 11:58 AM
Upon reflection of this, it is clear there is in fact a strong correlation between oppressed societies and religious fundamentalism.
......
The proof for religion being a by-product not cause of ills in society are vivid within modern day societies (as well as the former feudal societies). Why is it that religious fundamentalism arises only in societies with large amounts of inequality. One example would have to be America. It is prudent to use America as an example because it is an industrialised nation and claims to be at the fore-front of progress and therefore cannot fall to the argument that it is simply a backwards society. However it is one of the most divided countries in the world (proven by the aftermath of hurricane Katrina) and within it lays a large contingent of Christian fundamentalists.
......
. As a result, just like many downtrodden societies, they turn to violence and due to American military dominance the most available outlet for this violence is "martyrdom". The west has no one else but itself to blame for the increase in terrorist activities. Even before the conflict, there was oppression and as a result, fundamentalism occurred. However before the intervention of western societies, although religion was still there as it was a feudal society, it had not suffered the oppression which capitalism inflicts, hence less extreme responses to poor conditions.
.....
I hope this article evokes people to research the relationships between inequality and the phenomenon of religious fundamentalism.
There's some interesting ideas here. Don't mind or feel obligated even to respond to Redstar if you don't feel like it; it's not like he's made a serious response to any of your points.

It may well be true that inequality leads to strengthened religion. You have at least one data point to support it: the U.S. does have a higher level of economic inequality than most countries, and more church-goers and religious believers than most countries. This merits more research.

I think you make an error simply equating "fundamentalism" with strengthened religion. Maybe this is partly correct with 'Christian fundamentalism' which is a theological category that includes people with a range of political beliefs. Well-known liberals like Jimmy Carter can be "born-again Christians", a related term.

But "Islamic fundamentalism" is a political tendency. The term is flawed because it implies the false analogy to 'Christian fundamentalism'. So new terms like "Islamism" and "political Islam" have been invented. They are also flawed, so probably there will be another term invented next year.

An accurate term would be something like "rightist, bourgeois nationalist political organizations which call themselves Muslim or Islamic, whose ideology usually traces back to the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt". But that would be a mouthful.

Anyway, the rise and fall of Islamist tendencies has to be explained in terms of political events, not just as strengthened religion. Though strengthened religion is probably a favorable condition for it.

"Political Islam" has arisen to fill a vaccuum. Official "Communism" and other tendencies in the working class movement, attempting to lead the fight against imperialism in the region, had suffered defeats and committed betrayals. "Secular nationalists" like Nasser, the Ba'ath party, or Mossadegh likewise. This left an empty space, and as a new and not-yet-discredited force the fundamentalists were often able to fill it.

That's less and less true - as the Islamists discredit themselves in turn - but in post-invasion Iraq there was certainly a tremendous vacuum. The Ba'athist regime had suppressed and destroyed the Iraqi CP and working class movement generally. Then the Ba'ath regime itself wore out its credibility before being destroyed.

Excellent conditions for the rise of "Islamic fundamentalism", and it did begin to rise - one symptom was the Ba'athist regime accomodating to fundamentalism even before it was overthrown.

But it seems to be true as well that the horrific conditions of blockaded Iraq led more and more people to turn to religion for solace - and this may have contributed greatly to the rise of political Islam. My point is only that these are two different, even if related, things.


This leads to Marx's meaning that religion is simply an outcry against injustice.

I think this is as one-sided as the other interpretation of Marx, which you correctly objected to.

Marx emphasized that religion is "the cry of the soul in a soulless world" and also "the opiate of the people."

It's a response to oppression, and it also makes oppression bearable.

But revolutionaries don't want to make oppression bearable; we want people to refuse to bear it anymore.

As Marx goes on to say.

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers on the chain not in order that man shall continue to bear that chain without fantasy or consolation, but so that he shall throw off the chain and pluck the living flower. The criticism of religion disillusions man, so that he will think, act, and fashion his reality like a man who has discarded his illusions and regained his senses, so that he will move around himself as his own true Sun. Religion is only the illusory Sun which revolves around man as long as he does not revolve around himself.

It is, therefore, the task of history, once the other-world of truth has vanished, to establish the truth of this world. It is the immediate task of philosophy, which is in the service of history, to unmask self-estrangement in its unholy forms once the holy form of human self-estrangement has been unmasked. Thus, the criticism of Heaven turns into the criticism of Earth, the criticism of religion into the criticism of law, and the criticism of theology into the criticism of politics.
Emphasis added. source and context. (http://www3.baylor.edu/~Scott_Moore/texts/Marx_Opium.html)

I think he's right; though I've certainly known religious believers who were part of the fight against oppression and exploitation....I think it was despite their religion. I've also met many people who said there was no point in fighting to change the world...because God will fix it, and only God can fix it.

redstar2000
28th March 2006, 09:02
Originally posted by Severian
Don't mind or feel obligated even to respond to Redstar if you don't feel like it; it's not like he's made a serious response to any of your points.

There you are, spoonmonger, now you have a "real choice". :lol:

Something nice and warm and fuzzy from one of our resident social-democrats -- who believes in "freedom of religion" -- and "nasty old me".

Enjoy. :lol:

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif

Jimmie Higgins
28th March 2006, 09:29
I think in regard to the MArx quote you have to remember that opiates were not illegal or even stigmatized until dacades after that was written. Marx and most people of the day used opiates to relieve pain and calm children... if Marx was alive today he might have said that religion is the prozac of the people.

THere are two sides of religion 1) the side that Redstar is very good at pointing out, the side of religion that is authritative and tells people to wait until your dead for any kind of just world. 2) the side that attracts realatively sane and sincere good people to believe absurd and imaginary things.

It is the soul of the souless world... the attraction religion has to people is that it offers a world of equality (although an imaginary one you can only get to once your dead) and gives reason to an insane world where people who do all the work get no material reward or control over life.

THis is why, in my opinion, spirituality, has become big since the 70s. People are looking for answers to why the world makes no sense, and in the absense of an organized secular class struggle to change the world to make it make sense for most people, people turn to strange ideas. All superstition and religion begins as a way to explain the world... ancient religions forcused on elemental things like harvests and weather and so on... modern religions focus on social things.

THe labor and liberation movements were destroyed and you see people turing to all sorts of other explainations of the world: organized religion, new age mumbo-jumbo, self-help/actualization tapes, even becoming trekkies!

I think it is just inadaquate to say that religon indoctrinates people to control them and so in order for people to develop class-consiousness they have to become secular. Things are not that mechanical and automatic in real life and I believe as more rational explainations and solutions to the problems of life become more apparent (i.e. as movements take on inequality, people won't need to believe in a man in the sky to explain sufering anymore) religion will loose its appeal.