Historical Materialism

[anomaly]

I recently had a pretty in-depth conversation with a comrade about historical materialism. The comrade believed that capitalism could be skipped, and peasants could construct communism/anarchism.

So, my question is, do you think historical materialism (HM) is accurate, and why/why not?

As is customary, I'll state my opinion.

I think HM not only is accurate, but has been proven accurate by history. Oriental despotisms have always developed into feudal societies, which in turn have developed into capitalist societies. Certainly, there have been some instances of a communist-like society taking root 'out of order', but it never lasts. In Spain, the anarchists created a society that was rather 'communist-like', but it didn't last. Rather, capitalism developed in Spain (eventually) just like it has everywhere. So, in my opinion, it is extremely idealistic to believe that feudalism could ever develop into not capitalism but communism. In other words, HM is right.

Now, Marx also predicted, of course, that capitalism would not be an 'end', but that eventually communism would develop out of capitalism. Now, I don't really think we need a 'transitional state', but that doesn't mean HM is 'wrong'. I still think communism will develop after capitalism. The discussion of the state, however, is not central to this discussion. Here, I simply want comrades' thoughts on historical materialism, and, specifically, whether feudal society can 'skip' capitalism and go straight to communism.

[Sentinel]

Here, I simply want comrades' thoughts on historical materialism, and, specifically, whether feudal society can 'skip' capitalism and go straight to communism.

To build communism a society must be as abundant as possible and be on a high technology level.

Then it can truly deliver 'to each according to need'.

Capitalism effectively and quite rapidly develops the society to that level, then through a revolution the people takes control over that abundance and technology.

To me it seems obvious that capitalism is/was a necessary phase in human development. At least the first communist society must have been capitalist.

But if early communism existed in the most developed parts of the world, perhaps they could lend a helping hand to the rest and lead them past the capitalist phase? That I don't know..

[More Fire for the People]

Tell your friend he is a petty neo-Narodnik. Capitalism must develop to the extent that the proletariat, agricultural or industrial, develops into a class. Capitalism begins to demolish itself when it has smashed patriarchal local traditions, or at least degraded them, and has begun to concentrate wealth into the hands of the few and the organization of industrial sectors into corporations / large-scale industries.

[anomaly]

Originally posted by The Sentinel+--> (The Sentinel)But if early communism existed in the most developed parts of the world, perhaps they could lend a helping hand to the rest and lead them past the capitalist phase? That I don't know.. [/b]
Neither do I. I would assume that each nation must go through a 'capitalist phase', simply because that's 'the way things happen'. But will the existence of communism change the stages of development in any significant way? It seems unlikely to me, simply because once communism exists somewhere, the bourgeoisie will have control of the present 'developing nations'. But, that's just a guess. Maybe communist areas really can 'aid' feudal ones in such a way that capitalism itself can be skipped. Interesting question to ponder, but we won't know the answer until communism exists.


Hopscotch Anthill
Tell your friend he is a petty neo-Narodnik.
He's a member of this board! :o

I've been waiting for him to post, but he hasn't thus far.

I think he's just a bit utopian. Of course, maybe that's the same thing as a 'petty neo-Narodnik' (what the hell is that??).

[More Fire for the People]

Narodniks were anti-modernists and peasant utopians. They believed a utopian society would have to come from a terroristic attack on the state via individualist violence.

[Delirium]

Historical materialism has proven itself sofar relating to the development of capitalism, but as it relates to communism we shall have to see. I would like to think that it is true.

[Social Greenman]

HIstorical Materialism was also developed independently from Karl Marx by Lewis Henry Morgan. Morgan was a law professor, a New York State legislator, and an advocate of the rights of Native Americans. Marx and Engels considered Morgan to be an independent discoverer of the materialist conception of history.

[LoneRed]

your friend is entitled to his own opinions but if he claims hes a marxist, as well as capitalism can be skipped, hes in contradiction. Capitalism cannot be skipped. like others have said the productive capabilities, as well as (most importantly) the creation of the bourgeois-proletarian,modern day wage laborers, this cannot develop in feudalism, only the working class, the productive forces in society bring about socialism, and ultimately communism

[Connolly]

In material reality, capitalism can be skipped.

If I could go back in time to ancient egypt, with the knowledge of the future - they could, if organised and technology implemented - create capitalism (id have to be an expert on everything though - im not :D ). Of course, time machines are non existant.

Communism would have to develop "naturally" through the capitalist system first (so that we know what communism is :blink: ).

Then, I believe, It is possible to quicken the time it takes for other capitalist and feudal countries to reach socialism/communism if ideas and knowledge are exported.

Historical materialism is just an understanding of what has happened in the past to predict the most likely future result.

It can be very accurate, but also very inaccurate.

(as i mentioned in another thread) - its difficult to predict the lotto numbers each time - if at all. But very easy and accurate to pedict the machine drawing the balls reliability and most likely number of balls the machine will draw.

Some things it can be good for, others - we go blind.

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by The [email protected] 28 2006, 12:21 PM
If I could go back in time to ancient egypt, with the knowledge of the future - they could, if organised and technology implemented - create capitalism (id have to be an expert on everything though - im not :D ). Of course, time machines are non existant.
Whoah there. In Ancient Egypt, assuming you went back in time, you would be unable to implement capitalism because the material conditions for it did not exist then!

This concept of "stages" gets a lot of time but the core of historical materialism is that the structure of society, and state, is entirely dependant on the economic reality of the time. So your attempt to introduce capitalism in Egypt would fail unless you could fundamentally change the way that people worked and lived - the relations of production.

[Connolly]

Whoah there. In Ancient Egypt, assuming you went back in time, you would be unable to implement capitalism because the material conditions for it did not exist then!

Look, that time machine, organisation and want to create communism was idealist nonsence. It was just an example. As I said in the post, I believe the first socialist system can only come about through capitalism.

However (speaking in an idealist, but materially correct way), we can create the material conditions.

The material conditions being both the knowledge of the complete capitalist system and the material surroundings.

They can be shaped. What we have created now is simply a rearranging of matter to create machines of production - the matter - aluminium, oil etc existed - but extraction methods had not.


For example - if I could go back and teach hunter gatherer societies how to grow crops, rare cattle etc. I could transform their society - creating new material conditions of existance.

If I could go back and teach ancient Egyptians the workings and technology of the capitalist system - I could change their material existance.

However - I dont have a time machine.................so its fantasy - but materially correct.