Some stupid claims from my stupid dad

[Abood]

I don't know where to put this thread, so I put it here.

Here are some of the stuff my dad said:

- the holocaust never happened.
He believes the nazi resources and claims that they have the real number of jews and
and the jews' population increased after WWII.

- the communists force people into atheism.

- the only reason the communists stood against the publication of the cartoon of the
prophet Muhammad is probably because they were the ones who wanted the cartoons
of Jesus to be posted (the ones that got rejected by the same newspaper).


If anyone has anything to prove that he's so wrong, I'd really appreciate it.
He would never believe Jewish websites, so don't waste your time looking for those.

[dislatino]

Lol, i tried not to laugh......Your father has some quite strong claims, when he tells you does he give you any sources?

I say, "the communists force people into atheism." is an intersting one, probably beacuse i never heard it before, but hey good luck.

[BillHicks]

the holocaust never happened
Sure, it did, but it was one of many and certainly not nearly at the top in terms of brutality and bodycount. Independant investigation has actually turned the number closer to 3 million because strictly from a manpower and labour standpoint, any more would have been impossible given the number of homosexuals, gypsies, communists etc that were also slaughtered, gassed or otherwise killed. That does not take away from the tragedy nor make the Nazis any better than they were, however speaking personally, I get more than a little annoyed at seeming Jewish ownership over the word as if, like I said, theirs was the only genocidal sufferring or in fact even the most staggerring. What theirs was was highly systematic, incredibly efficient and for that you almost have to stand back and marvel at the efficiency and precision of the Nazi Death Machine...almost, but that they're alone in their sufferring or they paid the highest price in terms of death tolls or in terms of brutality? Sorry, no.

[which doctor]

Originally posted by Socialist [email protected] 26 2006, 11:14 AM
- the holocaust never happened.
He believes the nazi resources and claims that they have the real number of jews and
and the jews' population increased after WWII.
This is a common thought among people in Muslim countries. I'm not sure why. Evidence of the holocaust is all over the place.

[CCCPneubauten]

No...it was 6+ million Jews alone...not to sure what BillHicks is saying...he is sounding somewhat Neo-Nazi right now...

" I get more than a little annoyed at seeming Jewish ownership over the word as if, like I said, theirs was the only genocidal sufferring or in fact even the most staggerring."


"back and marvel at the efficiency and precision of the Nazi Death Machine"

Warning point perhaps?

[anomaly]

Originally posted by fist of blood+--> (fist of blood)Evidence of the holocaust is all over the place.[/b]
Yea, seriously. I have no idea where your dad is getting his info, SocialistAdvocate.


SocialistAdvocate
the communists force people into atheism.
We don't 'force people' to be athiests. We just show why it's a logical conclusion. I think atheism will come naturally. No need to force it.

[BillHicks]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 01:23 PM
No...it was 6+ million Jews alone...not to sure what BillHicks is saying...he is sounding somewhat Neo-Nazi right now...

" I get more than a little annoyed at seeming Jewish ownership over the word as if, like I said, theirs was the only genocidal sufferring or in fact even the most staggerring."


"back and marvel at the efficiency and precision of the Nazi Death Machine"

Warning point perhaps?
Unbelievable. You'd have thought I was giving credence to The Bell Jar or something. Honestly, disgusted though you and we all may be by the Nazi Death Machine, it's foolish to simply hate it without learning from it--not just what not to do, but what TO DO also. By that I don't mean a systemic annihilation of a population of course, but at the complexity and efficiency of the machine itself, working that hard towards an end goal. In this case the goal was fucked up and sick, but think of that same eye for efficiencies put towards benevolent ends. In terms of human potential, while superficially one can point to it and say it was humanity at its utmost worst, but if that's the case then you have to believe that given those same efforts towards a different ideal that a great deal of good can be done by handful of individuals in a very short amount of time. It should be studied and not simply tossed away because we are too shamed by it. There are lessons to be learned from monsters.

But it would seem this is sufficient to give me a warning point? Not that I necessarily give a shit, but that's some mighty weak sauce. I wasn't attacking anyone, I was giving a reasoned response to the thread issue. This is the biggest problem the left has--we censure what we deem unconforming to our outright ideals without examining the merits of the statement. If this is the ilk that is to lead a revolution, I weep.

[anomaly]

Originally posted by BillHicks
but think of that same eye for efficiencies put towards benevolent ends.
So we should use rigid Nazi 'discipline' to achieve a 'benevolent' goal?


but if that's the case then you have to believe that given those same efforts towards a different ideal that a great deal of good can be done by handful of individuals in a very short amount of time.
This is contrary to all of human history. A 'handful of individuals' can't change the world. They can kill people, and become Nazi assholes, but they can't change the world. It takes the people to change the world. Do you honestly believe that just a few people will 'lead us' to communism?


There are lessons to be learned from monsters.
The lesson is that Nazis are idiotic fuckheads.


we censure what we deem unconforming to our outright ideals without examining the merits of the statement.
Some things deserve to be censured. Perhaps 'marvelling at the Nazi Death Machine' is one of them. There is nothing there to be 'marvelled'. The only lesson, again, is that Nazis are idiotic fuckers.

[Hopes_Guevara]

Originally posted by Socialist [email protected] 26 2006, 04:14 PM
- the communists force people into atheism.


This had been always shouted by reactionaries during the period of 1980s in Vietnam. It's really funny to hear it again now. Never do communists want to etheir abolish religion or force people into atheism because that is an "imposible mission". Religion will never die until the basic conditions for its existence disappear.

It is still true that man proposes and God (that is, the alien domination of the capitalist mode of production) disposes. Mere knowledge, even if it went much further and deeper than that of bourgeois economic science, is not enough to bring social forces under the domination of society. What is above all necessary for this, is a social act. And when this act has been accomplished, when society, by taking possession of all means of production and using them on a planned basis, has freed itself and all its members from the bondage in which they are now held by these means of production which they themselves have produced but which confront them as an irresistible alien force, when therefore man no longer merely proposes, but also disposes — only then will the last alien force which is still reflected in religion vanish; and with it will also vanish the religious reflection itself, for the simple reason that then there will be nothing left to reflect.
(Engels (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1877/anti-duhring/ch27.htm))

[Communism]

Im not condoning what your dad said in any way but I did hear from a number of sources is that the Jewish population increased after the second world war, by saying this im not denying the holocaust im merely wondering why this happened (if it did). I can also see where your dad is coming from in the idea that he states communism changes people to aethism, as he may believe like the arrogant few that communism takes away ones inability to think, however this is completly wrong and is often thought like this througout the western world. Altogether I think that your dad has some issues over anti -semitism and you should tell him not to judge a race as a whole but each person as an individual then he may understand the basis of communism.

[BillHicks]

we censure what we deem unconforming to our outright ideals without examining the merits of the statement.
Some things deserve to be censured. Perhaps 'marvelling at the Nazi Death Machine' is one of them. There is nothing there to be 'marvelled'. The only lesson, again, is that Nazis are idiotic fuckers.

So we should use rigid Nazi 'discipline' to achieve a 'benevolent' goal?
Sure, why limit yourself?

This is contrary to all of human history. A 'handful of individuals' can't change the world. They can kill people, and become Nazi assholes, but they can't change the world. It takes the people to change the world. Do you honestly believe that just a few people will 'lead us' to communism?
Any political movement or revolution requires organization and leadership. It's why there's a Che-Lives board here and not a "faceless guerillas live!" board. Like it or not, even if one shuns personal glory, it may still be forced upon them. Private histories are important, but history will always be icon-driven because of its nature as a narrative.

The lesson is that Nazis are idiotic fuckheads.
Yes, because idiots could assemble such a vast army and push Russia as far as they did at the height of winter into retreat. Let's not let our ethical judgments cloud the fact that many were very efficient planners and commanders. You can piss on the ideology (as anyone should) but your rhetoric is weak.

Some things deserve to be censured. Perhaps 'marvelling at the Nazi Death Machine' is one of them. There is nothing there to be 'marvelled'. The only lesson, again, is that Nazis are idiotic fuckers.
No, they don't. You create a culture of taboos and inevitable self-censoring--the absolute worst and most despicable form of it. I'd sooner give the Klan an open mic and let them speak than allow them some outlaw image to maintain in the shadows, because that is where that sort of garbage is born and thrives--in the shadows tucked away because we don't want to even think about it, and why? because we're afraid of what the results may be if we did? what kind of judgment is that on the masses that you, not I, am making?

So, in closing, while it may be heresy around here for whatever reason you kids have decided that it is, the enemies you claim to have today are the same ones you and we all will need tomorrow because at least they show the strength to be vocal. The struggle is understanding them on their terms and figuring out why they do the things they do and say the things they say and think the things they think. Your typical right wing nutjob is the soldier fighting beside you tomorrow, so any of this childish "they're dumb fucks, that's why" has gotta go. I know it's difficult to grasp for some of you here, but in the real world, you actually have to work together, learn each other and proceed from there, and it's something you kiddies had better learn damn soon, for all your moaning and groaning about selling out this or that and thoughts of glorious revolution will just be talk, and worst yet, you will be talking to yourselves.

[anomaly]

Originally posted by BillHicks
Sure, why limit yourself?
Because Nazi 'discipline' was stupid. I think Lenin spoke of something similar when he said 'iron Bolshevik discipline'. Well, guess what the Soviet Union turned into? Guess what Nazi Germany turned into? Despotic states, both of them. I don't know about you, Mr. Hicks, but I want anarchism, not despotism.


Any political movement or revolution requires organization and leadership.
But you limit yourself in your speech. You want leaders, yes, but you also want them to have the power of command. And we cannot allow any 'benevolent leaders' to have the power of command. The left has been through all of your rhetoric before. And it took us nowhere.


Yes, because idiots could assemble such a vast army and push Russia as far as they did at the height of winter into retreat.
Hitler was the greatest propagandist to ever live, possibly. No one is disputing that. However, the very idea that rigic Nazi discipline (and discipline to whom?) would actually work for us is moronic.


because we're afraid of what the results may be if we did?
I really don't want another 'movement' with 'iron Bolshevik discipline'...do you?

And we should we 'open the mic' to any ideology we know to be wrong?


the enemies you claim to have today are the same ones you and we all will need tomorrow because at least they show the strength to be vocal
Are you serious? We will 'need' the Nazis? In case you weren't aware, Nazis rather enjoy killing communists. Do you honestly suggest we ally with them, fight with them? Mr. Hicks, it sounds to me like you are the one living in some fantasy world. The idea that we can just 'ally' with Nazis is, frankly, idiotic.

Besides, anarchists and Marxists are quite sufficiently 'vocal'. We're out there being vocal every day.


Your typical right wing nutjob is the soldier fighting beside you tomorrow
No they're not! Again, I think you are living in some fantasy land, where it is really possible for communists and fascists or Nazis to ally. We are against them. Get it? And we are against them for damn good reasons.

[LoneRed]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 06:23 PM
No...it was 6+ million Jews alone...not to sure what BillHicks is saying...he is sounding somewhat Neo-Nazi right now...

" I get more than a little annoyed at seeming Jewish ownership over the word as if, like I said, theirs was the only genocidal sufferring or in fact even the most staggerring."


"back and marvel at the efficiency and precision of the Nazi Death Machine"

Warning point perhaps?
there should be no warning given, what he said are perfectly ok things to say. It is true that the zionist like to coin the term when it come to genocide, but the number 6 million for only jews is quite ridiculous, given as he said, the manpower and resources. 6 million might be the number if all the other groups were included. Also a zionist coined the term anti-semite, which he used it for anyone discriminatory against people of jewish origin or faith, even though arabs are semites, so i guess by that definition the biggest anti-semites, are the zionists, or the ones oppressing the palestinians

[BillHicks]

I don't know about you, Mr. Hicks, but I want anarchism, not despotism.
...and you will not get there without an ordered revolution.

You want leaders, yes, but you also want them to have the power of command. And we cannot allow any 'benevolent leaders' to have the power of command. The left has been through all of your rhetoric before. And it took us nowhere.
Tommy Douglas, anyone? While not perfect, Pierre Trudeau anyone? LOL, and I love how you use the word "us" like you've actually done anything but march and scream and present yourself as a degenerate that the vast majority tune out upon sight. Whether you'd like to admit it or not, the left, as it is right now in the western world is insignificant. Partly because of media manipulation, but also partly because some of us simply like to start shit without a clear plan or reason as to why it would be worth it. Climbing to the top of mount platitude can sure clear your lungs but it won't earn you any support with the very people you're trying to help because they're too busy trying to make rent and don't want to see some shitdisturbing punk on TV razzing some cop. In short, we need external discipline and internal freedom. We need to appear better than those who are cracking our heads open, and one of the ways not to do it is to break up pieces of sidewalk and throw them at mounted cops, breaking their horses legs and forcing them to be destroyed.If we are better, if we are more just, conflict is not the answer. The class struggle is a constant, it's not going away overnight, but the last thing we need is to look across the way to the right wing nutjobs and call them our outright enemy. These people are feeling oppressed, as are we. Don't fall into the trap of drawing lines in the sand between potential comrades simply because you seemingly have a fundamental difference of opinion, yet let our rhetoric get in the way of any meaningful dialogue: http://www.geocities.com/kissmyass_de/jello_int3.htm

Do you honestly suggest we ally with them, fight with them?
No, I am suggesting that as oppressed peoples, we are already on the same side, that the separation is an illusion (racialists notwithstanding).

We are against them. Get it? And we are against them for damn good reasons.
OK, let's hear them...and then insert "the left/us/anarchists" etc for "Israel" and "Nazis/Fascists/them" and watch the hypocrisy run wild.

there should be no warning given
Too late, the petty feeble minded which control much of the left have spoken and I have a nifty 20% warning beside my name. Meh.