Bourgeois Liberal criticism of communism

[anomaly]

Originally posted by Ford Jr.+--> (Ford Jr.)Communism and socialism, in theory, sound like good systems, more in line with the teachings of Christ. However, unless everyone involved is committed to making them work and plays by the rules, the reality once applied to this world becomes a dysfunctional disaster for all except a chosen few.[/b]


Ford Jr.
Humans, by and large, are despicable creatures and find a way to beat whatever system is in place for their own advantage at the expense of others. This is no theory. It’s a fact.

Just some tid bits.

Here's the rest: http://agonist.org/don/20060324/in_defense_of_capitalism

Basically, what criticisms do comrades have? I have many, of course, but I'd like to listen to some of yours.

[anomaly]

Let me start. I'm too anxious to criticize this piece of liberal shit.

First, as I quoted, he equates communism and socialism to 'the teachings of Christ'. I know of not a single real anarchist or Leninist who cares at all for the 'teachings of Christ'. Christ taught racism and racism.

Secondly, this author is completely unfamiliar with the modern anti-capitalist movement. He consistently cites examples of 20th century Leninism as reasons why capitalism is 'good' while communism is 'bad'.

Thirdly, the author obviously has an idealist view of human history. His history goes something like "primitive collectivism, barbarism, oriental despotism, feudalism, capitalism, end." That does not match with observed history. Rather, there is no 'end'. There is only change. I think this idealist view of human history is at the heart of the 'liberal critique' of communism.

[apathy maybe]

Originally posted by anomaly
Thirdly, the author obviously has an idealist view of human history. His history goes something like "primitive collectivism, barbarism, oriental despotism, feudalism, capitalism, end." That does not match with observed history. Rather, there is no 'end'. There is only change. I think this idealist view of human history is at the heart of the 'liberal critique' of communism.Sounds sorta Marxists doesn't it.

Quotes are from the article.

Communism and socialism, in theory, sound like good systems, more in line with the teachings of Christ. However, unless everyone involved is committed to making them work and plays by the rules, the reality once applied to this world becomes a dysfunctional disaster for all except a chosen few.
Capitalism, in theory, sounds like a good system. The reality once applied to this world becomes a dysfuncional disaster for all except a chosen few. I don't actually agree that capitalism is a good system, but talk to folk in OI, good in theory, but it doesn't work.

For a refresher on the phenomenon, read Orwell’s Animal Farm.Animal Farm (and 1984) was written against Leninism. It was warning against authoritarianism. It was not written against socialism, especially as Orwell was a socialist (the author needs to read a biography of Orwell).

Humans, by and large, are despicable creatures and find a way to beat whatever system is in place for their own advantage at the expense of others. This is no theory. It’s a fact.
Prove it. What you can't? Oh dear. There is evidence that refutes this claim.

In it’s unbridled form, capitalism becomes anarchy (survival of the fittest, smartest, strongest, meanest, most deceptive, etc.). Anyone with a conscience soon finds the consequences of this unacceptable. So capitalism in its purest form does not exist in any major government on this planet.Mis-use of the word anarchy. True other wise.
So, the question is why those people with consciences accept capitalism at all.

All [humans] are created equal. Don’t know who first quoted that lie but a lie it is.
No they are not. But it doesn't mean that they need leaders.

It is hypocritical for feminists and intellectuals to enjoy the pleasures and conveniences of capitalism while sneering at it.... Everyone born into capitalism has incurred a debt to it. Camille Paglia.Just because I was born into a system does not mean that I have a debt to that system. I did not choose to be born into a capitalist system. By the logic in the quote, people born in (a poor part of) Africa have a debt to the system, because they were born into a shithole.

This article sucks. Poorly written and researched. The author would probably enjoy anarchist-communism if he was born into it. What he seems to be defending is his little town and what goes on in it. He doesn't care about anything else.

Guy needs to get out into the "real world".

[anomaly]

Originally posted by apathy maybe
Guy needs to get out into the "real world".
Funny, this is what I get all the time from capitalists...and from Trots! :lol:

[Mujer Libre]

Communism and socialism, in theory, sound like good systems, more in line with the teachings of Christ.

:lol: I love when people say stuff like that, it's always so fun to see their faces after you've explained to them just how wrong they are, 'i'm sorry billy, jesus was a reactionary' :(

Poor DHF Jr. isn't off to a good start, so far...



However, unless everyone involved is committed to making them work and plays by the rules, the reality once applied to this world becomes a dysfunctional disaster for all except a chosen few.

Hmmm, sounds familar....

Why wouldn't people want to live without an oppressive state? Live free from wage slavery? I mean, i can understand that work in a capitalist society is rarely fun, but it's not like effort can't be expended to make post-capitalist working conditions as flexible and worker friendly as possible, this is after all a society run by producers, not appropiaters. Plus the incentives for working in a communist society, participating, are not the same slim pickings we find in a capitalist society.

In a capitalist society workers sell their labour knowing that they're only working to make someone else rich, they get treated like shit by their boss(es), their contribution to society is rarely appreciated and then they get fired and try the game again lest they starve.

In contrast, when people are living free from wage slavery in a communist society they're working for themselves to enrich their communities, they're not alienated from what they produce, they are in control of it! The workplace will be self-managed, not dicated by corporations and bourgeois law.

The difference in short, is empowerment. In a communist society people are empowered to control their own lives.



Humans, by and large, are despicable creatures and find a way to beat whatever system is in place for their own advantage at the expense of others. This is no theory. It’s a fact.

A fact? :unsure:

What's the point in 'beating' a communist system?

Don Henry can't seem to differentiate between capitalist and post-capitalist social conditions.

In a post-capitalist society people shouldn't have to 'cheat' the system, why steal things that are free? I'm sure there will be a small minority of capitalists and counter-revolutionaries that will try to sabotage society, but why would any significant proportion of society steal and scam a communist society?

Life is meant to be easier, not harder without capitalist social relations and ruling class hegemony. Communist society is supposed to be a 'post-scarcity' society, by utilising technology and production, orientating work to serve society as a whole, rather than a privileged minority, a communist society should be able to provide a better quality of life. A standard that will only improve over time, instead of hijacking human knowledge and using to make nice things for the military or rich people, it will be used to benefit society.

I might try some more of Don Henry Ford Jr. later, that's enough for now :P

[Sentinel]

Communism and socialism, in theory, sound like good systems, more in line with the teachings of Christ.

Funny, I can't see the point of this comparison, to me the teachings of 'Christ' sound like shit.


However, unless everyone involved is committed to making them work and plays by the rules, the reality once applied to this world becomes a dysfunctional disaster for all except a chosen few.


Humans, by and large, are despicable creatures and find a way to beat whatever system is in place for their own advantage at the expense of others. This is no theory. It’s a fact.

The propaganda about the 'greedy human nature' only applies to people in a capitalist society, who've learned that being competitive and elbowing is the only way to succeed.

I myself believe that a period of transition is a necessary evil partly because of the impact of this propaganda on human minds.. but this again depends on when and where the revolution occurs.

Human beings reflect their surrounding environment.

Already the children born in an abundant socialist society, actively striving for communism, will see the nature of capitalist competition as something alien and laughable. And so, they will 'play by the rules'. :)

Abundance is the key word in this.

Such a society will be achieved by a proletarian revolution in the imperialist countries. The material conditions of the socialist countries of the last century were too poor to build communism, and so the capitalist model seemed more successful in comparison to the socialist one.

But once communism does exist, no matter how it's finally achieved, only lunatics would want a return to capitalism. :lol:

[Cheung Mo]

Capitalism was once leftism: It was a radical alternative to feudalism and absolute monarchies.

Is it better? Fuck yes.

Is it good enough? Not even close.

[Eleutherios]

Well, there are so-called "Christian communists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism)" who claim to embrace communism because they think it's how the first Christians lived, based on certain passages in the Bible, such as:

Originally posted by Acts 2:42-45+--> (Acts 2:42-45)And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.[/b]
Of course, they feel free to completely ignore blatantly anti-communistic statements in the New Testament such as the following:

Originally posted by Luke 17:7-10+--> (Luke 17:7-10)But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?

And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?

Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.

So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.[/b]

Originally posted by Ephesians 6:5
Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ

Colossians 3:[email protected]
Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God

1 Peter 2:18
Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

[RedRevolution]

Can you not see that capitalism is becoming communism. Ask any capitalist what s/he believes and they'll say free markets. Ask any doctrinaire communist (like myself) what we belief and it'll be worker ownership of production and sharing of it. What happens if free markets produce this as they inevitably will? Class unity and world communism that everyone supports - just as Marx said. First came Linux (supported by capitalists and communists) now comes blogs (dominated by capitalists) radio, films, music, news and the rest are coming. As societies become richer through capitalism they buy more of these as a proportion of their economky becoming more communist.

We communists have been mistaken in our efforts. For too long we have fought the historical process and halted progress into communism. Fighting capitalism has only ever resulted in feudalism, and our noble hearts have been the cause of it. Communism is coming and we are the ones slowing it down.

[piet11111]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 04:30 AM
Can you not see that capitalism is becoming communism. Ask any capitalist what s/he believes and they'll say free markets. Ask any doctrinaire communist (like myself) what we belief and it'll be worker ownership of production and sharing of it. What happens if free markets produce this as they inevitably will? Class unity and world communism that everyone supports - just as Marx said. First came Linux (supported by capitalists and communists) now comes blogs (dominated by capitalists) radio, films, music, news and the rest are coming. As societies become richer through capitalism they buy more of these as a proportion of their economky becoming more communist.

We communists have been mistaken in our efforts. For too long we have fought the historical process and halted progress into communism. Fighting capitalism has only ever resulted in feudalism, and our noble hearts have been the cause of it. Communism is coming and we are the ones slowing it down.
ooh communism is coming look at all the RED in coca cola cans.
all those commercials are saying that I matter and that i can choose a whole new "lifestyle" to be "enpowered" it must be true as coca cola and nike and the rest are saying it.

i should go out now and get some axe deodorant and tonight i will be swimming in an ocean of titty's why ? because the commercials say so.

:lol:

[RedRevolution]

You're motivated by hatred like any other fascist not by science and socialism.

[piet11111]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 06:23 AM
You're motivated by hatred like any other fascist not by science and socialism.
being called a facist by you is a compliment i would be ashamed not to be a facist in your book.

i am motivated by reality instead of your "LSD fueled science" my reality is that i am unemployed and living on 90 stinking euro's a month (because i never had a job longer then the required 2 years i am not entiteled to unemployent)

and that capitalist pig that fired me and others is now driving a big fat brandnew mercedes.

[RedRevolution]

Nothing could be worse than letting your personal problems and misfortunes get in the way of the true revolution and abstract scientific thinking. You prolong your own problems with your struggle against progress. That's how the fascists get you by appealing to your emotions and turning you bitter and unthinking. I want communism as soon as possible, and so do you so stop fighting history.

[piet11111]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 06:57 AM
Nothing could be worse than letting your personal problems and misfortunes get in the way of the true revolution and abstract scientific thinking. You prolong your own problems with your struggle against progress. That's how the fascists get you by appealing to your emotions and turning you bitter and unthinking. I want communism as soon as possible, and so do you so stop fighting history.
problems and misfortune are you fucking shitting me ?

i was a communist before hitting the bottom of society my experiences down here only show me how right i was in the first place.
the only thing that changed is the lack of money to get "tools of the trade"

and i am not fighting the progress of history you are doing that yourself with your sickening tolerance of the capitalists and the social reformists.
aperrantly you have quite an appetite for bullshit well all i can say is that you will feel more at home in opposing ideology's.

and also please give me your definition of facism and no peaking on dictionary.com or something.

[RedRevolution]

and also please give me your definition of facism and no peaking on dictionary.com or something.

Facsism from 'fasces' meaning a bundle of sticks tied together, is socialism without the technological base (private ownership but enforced collective control) which always results in the same death and destruction. It is also what you, through your hate, unwittingly campaign for. You are a stick in the cogs of history and you are one of those stopping us from reaching communism.

Next you'll be blaming the Jews, or Muslims or something....

[piet11111]

im not that picky i blame all capitalists equally they and they alone are to blame and to be shot.

[RedRevolution]

im not that picky i blame all capitalists equally they and they alone are to blame and to be shot.

Capitalists aren't to blame our political system is economically determined. You're anti-progress attitude shows you for what you really are - a facsist.

[piet11111]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 07:48 AM

im not that picky i blame all capitalists equally they and they alone are to blame and to be shot.

Capitalists aren't to blame our political system is economically determined. You're anti-progress attitude shows you for what you really are - a facsist.
aha a capitalist apologist goodbye :lol:

[wet blanket]

Originally posted by piet11111+Apr 3 2006, 10:03 AM--> (piet11111 @ Apr 3 2006, 10:03 AM)
[email protected] 3 2006, 07:48 AM

im not that picky i blame all capitalists equally they and they alone are to blame and to be shot.

Capitalists aren't to blame our political system is economically determined. You're anti-progress attitude shows you for what you really are - a facsist.
aha a capitalist apologist goodbye :lol: [/b]
He's partially correct though... I'm no pacifist, but suggesting that all capitalists ought to be killed because of their ideology is a pretty fascist and antisocial.

Mass killings are not really something that should supported. It's not really appealing to most people and only reinforces the 'crazy militant pinko' stereotype.

[Comrade_Ryan]

Originally posted by wet blanket+Apr 3 2006, 10:27 AM--> (wet blanket @ Apr 3 2006, 10:27 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 10:03 AM

[email protected] 3 2006, 07:48 AM

im not that picky i blame all capitalists equally they and they alone are to blame and to be shot.

Capitalists aren't to blame our political system is economically determined. You're anti-progress attitude shows you for what you really are - a facsist.
aha a capitalist apologist goodbye :lol:
He's partially correct though... I'm no pacifist, but suggesting that all capitalists ought to be killed because of their ideology is a pretty fascist and antisocial.

Mass killings are not really something that should supported. It's not really appealing to most people and only reinforces the 'crazy militant pinko' stereotype. [/b]
Ya hes quite a genious for stating the obvious and then being a dumbass in the same sentence.