Atheists are "America's most distrusted minority" [Archive]

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24th March 2006, 00:27

MINNEAPOLIS / ST. PAUL (3/20/2006) -- American’s increasing acceptance of religious diversity doesn’t extend to those who don’t believe in a god, according to a national survey by researchers in the University of Minnesota’s department of sociology.

From a telephone sampling of more than 2,000 households, university researchers found that Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in “sharing their vision of American society.” Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry.

Even though atheists are few in number, not formally organized and relatively hard to publicly identify, they are seen as a threat to the American way of life by a large portion of the American public. “Atheists, who account for about 3 percent of the U.S. population, offer a glaring exception to the rule of increasing social tolerance over the last 30 years,” says Penny Edgell, associate sociology professor and the study’s lead researcher.

Edgell also argues that today’s atheists play the role that Catholics, Jews and communists have played in the past—they offer a symbolic moral boundary to membership in American society. “It seems most Americans believe that diversity is fine, as long as every one shares a common ‘core’ of values that make them trustworthy—and in America, that ‘core’ has historically been religious,” says Edgell. Many of the study’s respondents associated atheism with an array of moral indiscretions ranging from criminal behavior to rampant materialism and cultural elitism.

Edgell believes a fear of moral decline and resulting social disorder is behind the findings. “Americans believe they share more than rules and procedures with their fellow citizens—they share an understanding of right and wrong,” she said. “Our findings seem to rest on a view of atheists as self-interested individuals who are not concerned with the common good.”

The researchers also found acceptance or rejection of atheists is related not only to personal religiosity, but also to one’s exposure to diversity, education and political orientation—with more educated, East and West Coast Americans more accepting of atheists than their Midwestern counterparts.

The study is co-authored by assistant professor Joseph Gerteis and associate professor Doug Hartmann. It’s the first in a series of national studies conducted the American Mosaic Project, a three-year project funded by the Minneapolis-based David Edelstein Family Foundation that looks at race, religion and cultural diversity in the contemporary United States. The study will appear in the April issue of the American Sociological Review.

http://www.ur.umn.edu/FMPro?-db=releases&-...l&ID=2816&-Find (http://www.ur.umn.edu/FMPro?-db=releases&-lay=web&-format=umnnewsreleases/releasesdetail.html&ID=2816&-Find)

Interesting.

anomaly

24th March 2006, 00:34

“Our findings seem to rest on a view of atheists as self-interested individuals who are not concerned with the common good.”
I'm an atheist...and a communist. Take that, article! :lol:

Oh-Dae-Su

24th March 2006, 00:48

well, our generation, and our childrens generation, and so on, will probably move more towards our side. The world is changing, every generation there is more and more opposition to religion, people who educate themselves become more aware of the truth. But who gives a shit, i don't really care, if i have to marry some girl and play like im a christian, fuck it, im still getting that piece of ass :lol:

violencia.Proletariat

24th March 2006, 00:52

Another reason to get the fuck out of America whenver you can. :lol: Although as an atheist I have never felt any hostility. No one my age gives a shit if I'm an atheist or not, and lots of people I know are atheists, people I wouldnt expect to be.

More Fire for the People

24th March 2006, 00:56

Atheist in America tend to be seen as egotistic because unlike European rationalists, American atheists are usually either libertarians or objectivists / anarcho-capitalists.

Delirium

24th March 2006, 01:10

They are right to fear us atheists, we are the ones most likely to challange thier established christian views. I would still say that people still seem to hate homosexuals more where i'm from.

FULL METAL JACKET

24th March 2006, 01:18

Well this is the most religious country in the world so that's no suprise.

Oh-Dae-Su

24th March 2006, 02:34

Although as an atheist I have never felt any hostility. No one my age gives a shit if I'm an atheist or not, and lots of people I know are atheists, people I wouldnt expect to be.

yeah man same here

Well this is the most religious country in the world so that's no suprise. :rolleyes:

ohh god, some of the stuff i read just dumbfound me, hahahaha good one, we sure are the most religious country in the world right, thats why we are secular :rolleyes:

FULL METAL JACKET

24th March 2006, 03:43

Originally posted by Oh-Dae-[email protected] 23 2006, 09:43 PM
ohh god, some of the stuff i read just dumbfound me, hahahaha good one, we sure are the most religious country in the world right, thats why we are secular :rolleyes:
Secular? You are a young fool. You are obviously not from the U.S.

Oh-Dae-Su

24th March 2006, 04:17

well im not "from" meaning, "born" in the USA, but iv lived half of my life here, ever sine i was 9 years old, and i consider myself American in every sense of the word, and this country has given me what my own denied. So i love this country, and yes , this is a secular country, but of course the chrisitan principles are present with most politicians, but to say that it is THE MOST! religious country in the world is just a farce, c'mon, have you looked at the other side of the world? :rolleyes:

redstar2000

24th March 2006, 04:43

Well, it's a "telephone survey"...so what does it mean?

Lots of people get called, probably half the people they called just hung up on the callers, and many of the rest gave "socially acceptable" answers to the questions.

Doesn't really mean dick...except perhaps to those "leftists" who want to suck up to religion in order to "gain popularity". :o

I was openly atheist at all the places I worked during my working life...and got almost zero flak for it. Occasionally, I even managed to have some good conversations with my co-workers on the subject.

Telling them that I was a communist was a lot "trickier". :lol:

Granted, things might be somewhat worse now...given the presence of Christian Fascism.

But I still think it's necessary to confront religion before any talk about communism will make any sense at all.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif

Oh-Dae-Su

24th March 2006, 04:47

yeah thats true, about the survey. Maybe its some conservative state, where was it again? Minnesota? whatever you get what i mean. Frankly i have no friends who are "religious", my sister in the other hand is fucking deeply religious like her husband. They go to church every sunday, and iv argued with them a couple of times about it, they know i don't believe in god, but well their family, their not going to "abandon" me. Although i wouldn't be surprised if something like that might happen. Imagine your dad was a pastor or something lmao :lol: ahh but probably you would have been brainwashed from an early age so....

FULL METAL JACKET

24th March 2006, 04:56

You obviously know nothing about American politics.

Please ask yourself these questions:

1. If the U.S is so secular why is gay marriage a heated discussion? And who's against it?

2. Why do we have under-God under our pledge of allegiance?

3. Why does every President take an oath on the bible?

4. Why does Bush use the word crusade to desribe his war against the people he calls evildoers?

5. Why did President Bush tell Mahmud Abbas and former foreign minister Nabil Shaath

"'And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East.' And by God I'm gonna do it',"

6. Why did Bush tell Mahmud Abbas this?

'God would tell me, 'George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan'.'

"And I did, and then God would tell me, 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq...' And I did.

Oh Yes! We are very secular indeed. :rolleyes: Am telling you here and now, get up off your ass. You are blinded.

Oh-Dae-Su

24th March 2006, 05:28

but of course the chrisitan principles are present with most politicians

obviously you didn't get off your ass and read well. ;)

If the U.S is so secular why is gay marriage a heated discussion? And who's against it?

secular or not, who gives a fuck about gay marrige? till this day it dumbfound's me why gay marragie is such a big issue in this country, if you want to get marry than go ahead, if a state wants to sanction it than fuck it is sanctioned end of story. Why do gay people want to get married now all the sudden? when it has always been a heterosexual tradition? I think its wrong prohibiting gay marrige, but i also find ridiculous why gay people want to marry as well? i just don't get it. Homosexuality is always going to have the social status it has, so thats it.

Why do we have under-God under our pledge of allegiance?

Why does every President take an oath on the bible?

these are ritual things, rather following tradition more than anything. Because this is how the father's of the nation did it etc. , it's like saying: "why do those judges wear those wigs and those wardrobes?"..

Why does Bush use the word crusade to desribe his war against the people he calls evildoers?

and whatever else Bush says, thats him, thats Bush, he might be an atheist, or might be a vodoo worshiper, who gives a fuck.

anyways, you seem to be getting off the subject, and evading what im trying to argue, im not arguing whether this country is religious or not, what im arguing is that you said it is THE MOST! of the whole world, which is just ridiculous. Ever heard of the Middle East? North Africa? India?Iran? etc. apparently not , or are you meaning to tell me that these countries are less "religious" than America (the world promoter of secularism, which by the way it is one of the reasons why we are hated so much in the middle east) :rolleyes:

Capitalist Lawyer

24th March 2006, 05:37

I'm still trying to figure out why you guys on the left are so paranoid about religion and so vehemently fundamentalist anti-religion? Why do churches and anything that has a religious theme attached to it, drive you all up a wall? I certainly don't see any communist or atheist organization volunteering or helping others. What makes you all so damn superior?

*Please note, I'm not religious myself, nor do I attend church, watch Pat Robertson's show or ever burned a witch'

Here are some fellow comrades of yours who recently made it to the news.

3 Students Involved in Burning of Churches in Alabama (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-churches9mar09,0,3304882,print.story?coll=la-home-headlines)

FULL METAL JACKET

24th March 2006, 05:39

but of course the chrisitan principles are present with most politicians

obviously you didn't get off your ass and read well. wink.gif
What is this propaganda bullshit? I never said that.

these are ritual things, rather following tradition more than anything
You mean more religious than anything. Bush puts his right hand on the bible and raises his left hand to take the oath. Surely nothing religious involved in that. :unsure:

and whatever else Bush says, thats him, thats Bush, he might be an atheist, or might be a vodoo worshiper, who gives a fuck.
He is a Methodist. The people who voted him in obviously care that he is prostetant and that his views are not secular.

nyways, you seem to be getting off the subject, and evading what im trying to argue, im not arguing whether this country is religious or not, what im arguing is that you said it is THE MOST! of the whole world, which is just ridiculous. Ever heard of the Middle East? North Africa? India? Iran? etc.

:lol: Right like the places you've just mentioned in bold are actual countries. :rolleyes: Are you that ignorant?

Funny how you completely ignore the quotes where Bush says he is driven by "God" to make the world "a better place."

Oh-Dae-Su

24th March 2006, 05:51

What is this propaganda bullshit? I never said that

i said it you idiot, i said :"but of course the chrisitan principles are present with most politicians", so obviously you would not have given me Bush's example, because i do know that many politicians are religious.

You mean more religious than anything. Bush puts his right hand on the bible and raises his left hand to take the oath. Surely nothing religious involved in that

of course it is religious, but it is a more of a traditional thing to do, it's like taking the oath in a jury, nobody really pays attention to that.

Right like the places you've just mentioned are actual countries. Are you that ignorant?

ohhhk? so that's how you try to attack me with? are you that stupid that you can't figure it out? or do i have to name country by country in each reagion for you to get it and for me to prove my point? :blink: hehehe, what do you want my to do? go: " Lybia, Morroco, Egypt, Algeria".. and so on? hahaha isn't NORTH AFRICA just the same? :rolleyes:

Funny how you completely ignore the quotes where Bush says he is driven by "God" to make the world "a better place."

like i said, thats him, what do i care what he beliefs, you see, thats secularism, your beliefs are personal and to private, but you can't judge people on the Bible, maybe some principles of the Bible influence our laws etc, but their rather rational stuff like, not stealing, killing, etc. etc.. unlike North African , Middle Eastern countries, where you have to follow the Sharia law strictly. If you belive that America is a theocratic state, than im done with you.....it will be pointless for me to keep waisting my time and energy with you, its like talking sense to a fool (don't get offended, im not calling you a fool) :)

FULL METAL JACKET

24th March 2006, 05:55

This is the really last response you'll get from me.

All I have to say is that I am honestly scared and saddened by the fact that a human being just called North Africa and the Middle East a country. :(

Oh-Dae-Su

24th March 2006, 06:03

wtf? ^^ :lol: ok FULL,

Oh-Dae-Su: "or do i have to name country by country in each reagion"

hahaha yup, FULL doesn't know the difference between a country and a region. I bet if you tell the guy that Mexico, Canada, and the USA are the same thing as saying North America, hell be shocked!! :lol:

STI

24th March 2006, 06:27

Ok, FMJ, we all get that America is a very religous nation... but come on, the most religious in the world?

Iran? Gay marriage isn't even an issue over there... because almost everybody is against it!

Nothing Human Is Alien

24th March 2006, 06:44

Why do we have under-God under our pledge of allegiance?

It was added during the "red scare" in 1954 to make America look like God's country as opposed to the "goodless communists" of the Soviet Union. It was iniated by the anti-communist scum bags in the Knights of Columbus.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/1892_Pledge_of_Allegiance2.jpg
Kids giving the pledge how everyone did before WW2.

Iran? Gay marriage isn't even an issue over there... because almost everybody is against it!

Almost everybody is against it in the US too. In fact, a sizeable percentage there (followers of people like Pat Robertson) think homosexuals should be executed.

Oh-Dae-Su

24th March 2006, 06:51

Pat Robertson, hahaha , gosh don't even mention his name, hes like our own Osama Bin Laden :lol:

STI

24th March 2006, 07:10

Almost everybody is against it in the US too. In fact, a sizeable percentage there (followers of people like Pat Robertson) thing homosexuals should be executed.

Compare that to the numbers with the same position in Iran. Who's got more?

Nothing Human Is Alien

24th March 2006, 07:35

There's no way to tell.

Jimmie Higgins

24th March 2006, 10:10

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2006, 04:52 AM
Well, it's a "telephone survey"...so what does it mean?

Lots of people get called, probably half the people they called just hung up on the callers, and many of the rest gave "socially acceptable" answers to the questions.
I was wondering about that too. THey called 2000 people? Not a wide-reaching survey by any means.

I've lived in California all my life. I went to catholic school when I was really young and I remember thinking "this dosn't make sense" but nobody really seemed to talk about religion (aside from an odd vague reference to God every once in a while) or care if you accepted Jesus or not. Then I went to public high school and there were a lot of evangelical types (well, they tried to get you to come to church with them a lot) and they talked about God every chance they got. THey all knew I didn't believe in God and either just didn't talk to me about it or didn't care.

When I went to college, however, I ran into christian groups who tried really hard to convert you. THey'd do "good-cop/bad-cop": One would say "I used to not believe in God and I felt confused about things and lonely and blah-blah, then I found Jesus and we play chess every wednessday and he combs my hair for me at night" and the other would yell "you're going to hell unless you accept Jesus!". So I learned to just stay away from them.

But I remember being really suprised that so many seeming rational people were "spiritual". I'd rather they be Christian or some other organized religion. But these unorganized "spiritual" people (ranging from new age religions to just vauge... "I know something's watching over me") were always the most shocked that I didn't believe in anything. "So you think people just die and that's it?" they'd say. "yeah," I would reply, "that's why most people don't want to die".

Global_Justice

24th March 2006, 15:08

america is crazy. it is so different to the rest of the world and i don't think alot of americans realise how much people dislike america. the only good thing about america is new york, at least the people there are normal.

i heard that some US travel agents advise americans travelling abroad to play down the fact they are american to avoid confrontation, is that true? :lol:

seriously, i'm in the UK and i only know 1 christian.

in europe americans are a laughing stock, portrayed as fat, stupid and blindly patriotic people who go in head first into conflicts, kill first, ask questions later. i'm studying film, and a common insult to a film is "it's too american" "it's ok but the ending is american" etc.

america is the most right-wing country by a mile, 1% of america is left? that is shocking. there is a large leftist movement in the UK and in France.

5% of americans have passports? i hope that is the 5% that are normal and the rest can stay in their isolation believing america is the worlds greatest country and how every other country is jealous and loves america because it's a champion of freedom while they polute the air with oil they have stolen from poorer countries and killed as many as possible because non-american life is far less important than the super race of americans.

violencia.Proletariat

24th March 2006, 17:04

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2006, 11:17 AM

i heard that some US travel agents advise americans travelling abroad to play down the fact they are american to avoid confrontation, is that true?

In some countries groups liked to kidnap Americans.

portrayed as fat, stupid and blindly patriotic people who go in head first into conflicts, kill first, ask questions later.

This sounds like the "military family" phenomenon, but these seem to running out as no one wants to sign up for the military anymore. The execsive commericals for the national guard on tv, movie theater previews, billboards must not be working. :)

5% of americans have passports? i hope that is the 5% that are normal and the rest can stay in their isolation believing america is the worlds greatest country and how every other country is jealous and loves america because it's a champion of freedom while they polute the air with oil they have stolen from poorer countries and killed as many as possible because non-american life is far less important than the super race of americans.

I dont have a passport. I hope its not because I'm "fat, stupid, and backwards". I think its because I can't afford to travel, especially not out of the country. :(

I dont think its because majorities of Americans hate other places, it might just be they can't afford trips around the world.

STI

24th March 2006, 19:54

Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 24 2006, 07:44 AM
There's no way to tell.
Take a wild guess.

Oh-Dae-Su

24th March 2006, 20:24

america is crazy. it is so different to the rest of the world and i don't think alot of americans realise how much people dislike america. the only good thing about america is new york, at least the people there are normal

ask me if we really give a shit? ask me if we care? why DO they hate us? if it's not because of jelousy than i don't really know what it is...and the only "good" thing about America is New York? wtf? i thought we were the people who were called "ignorant"?? :lol: and "normal", ahahhaa what does that mean? that they don't have cars and have to commute through the subway unlike anywhere else in America? :lol:

i heard that some US travel agents advise americans travelling abroad to play down the fact they are american to avoid confrontation, is that true?

well if i went to North Africa or the Middle East, you think it is advisable to say, HEY IM AN AMERICAN!!! hahahaa

seriously, i'm in the UK and i only know 1 christian

and the rest are Muslims, ahahhaa

in europe americans are a laughing stock, portrayed as fat, stupid and blindly patriotic people who go in head first into conflicts, kill first, ask questions later. i'm studying film, and a common insult to a film is "it's too american" "it's ok but the ending is american" etc.

so we are a laughing stock, what do you think you are here? hahaha

"OK MATE, LETS GO GRAB THE CRICKET GAME AFTER OUR CUP OF TEA!" :lol:

america is the most right-wing country by a mile, 1% of america is left? that is shocking. there is a large leftist movement in the UK and in France.

"OHH ITS SHOCKING!", hahaha, fuck off, we are right wing because we have no necessity and no need to be left, we are happy being right, right is the world leader the world supremacy, i mean because we are right wing there is something wrong with us? :blink: wtf.... :lol:

5% of americans have passports?

:blink: WHAT!!! 5% of Americans!! :lol: , only 14 million Americans have passports, thats hard to believe. If you can give me the proof than ill belive it.

believing america is the worlds greatest country and how every other country is jealous and loves america because it's a champion of freedom while they polute the air with oil they have stolen from poorer countries and killed as many as possible because non-american life is far less important than the super race of americans.

ok than, tell me who is the world's greatest country? please, tell me, im dying to know, who is more powerful than America economically, politically, and militarilly :lol: and we are not a champion of freedom? then who is? tell me who, which country is more of a champion than us? France? Italy? hahaha :lol: and we steal and we kill ? lol, so we are the only country in the world to ever have done these things? even though i acknoledge they are wrong, but countries do things for their own interest, thats just how things work, and no we don't think we are a "master race" wtf! :blink: , but of course we are going to think an American is more important than a Zimbabwian or something, you think Britain or France or Germany would think differently? think again.

Ol' Dirty

24th March 2006, 20:40

Originally posted by FULL METAL [email protected] 24 2006, 01:27 AM
Well this is the most religious country in the world so that's no suprise.
Um... Iran?

Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor

24th March 2006, 22:55

I suppose it makes sense since atheists challenge Christians values. When it comes to open dislike, however, I find that it rarely occurs. People are more scared of atheists than anything.

Dyst

24th March 2006, 23:16

"OHH ITS SHOCKING!", hahaha, fuck off, we are right wing because we have no necessity and no need to be left, we are happy being right, right is the world leader the world supremacy, i mean because we are right wing there is something wrong with us? blink.gif wtf.... laugh.gif

Yes, yes it is. Countries with even higher amount of wealth than you ("succesfull" by your standars) all (more or less) has got an equally strong amount of left wing as the right.

I suppose it is because those people realize what a shithole most of the world is, what causes it, and obviously how it should be fixed.

While most US citizens doesn't seem to give a damn. That's what happens when you watch too many TV series and listen to shitty pop all day.

Oh-Dae-Su

25th March 2006, 03:42

Countries with even higher amount of wealth than you

are you refering to Sweden and other Scandanavian countries? ok, sure, what your trying to say is that nobody there is possibly "poor". But wealthier than Americans? dude, a poor bastard here owns more cars and house accessories than a rich guy in Sweden. So then, what do you measure wealth by ? because as far as im concerned, the richest people in the world are Americans, when was the last time we saw a Swede in the Forbe's top 10 billionares? i concider myself middle class, and im an immigrant along with my parents, and im sure i own more things than many many many people in Europe alone, let's not even mention the rest of the world.

violencia.Proletariat

25th March 2006, 03:58

dude, a poor bastard here owns more cars and house accessories than a rich guy in Sweden.

Yes because there are no homeless people in America, and everyone can afford a car here :rolleyes:

Oh-Dae-Su

25th March 2006, 04:02

thats not what im trying to say nate, i accept those facts. But what im trying to say is, that me, as a middle class probably low middle class person, enjoy a life that an upper middle class, maybe upper class person in Europe alone enjoys; and sincerely this would not be possible if it wasn't because i lived in the USA.

Jimmie Higgins

25th March 2006, 06:34

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2006, 03:17 PM
america is crazy. it is so different to the rest of the world and i don't think alot of americans realise how much people dislike america. the only good thing about america is new york, at least the people there are normal.

i heard that some US travel agents advise americans travelling abroad to play down the fact they are american to avoid confrontation, is that true? :lol:

seriously, i'm in the UK and i only know 1 christian.

in europe americans are a laughing stock, portrayed as fat, stupid and blindly patriotic people who go in head first into conflicts, kill first, ask questions later. i'm studying film, and a common insult to a film is "it's too american" "it's ok but the ending is american" etc.

america is the most right-wing country by a mile, 1% of america is left? that is shocking. there is a large leftist movement in the UK and in France.

5% of americans have passports? i hope that is the 5% that are normal and the rest can stay in their isolation believing america is the worlds greatest country and how every other country is jealous and loves america because it's a champion of freedom while they polute the air with oil they have stolen from poorer countries and killed as many as possible because non-american life is far less important than the super race of americans.
This is a really childish way to view fellow workers... I thought we were intrenationalists here with a class-view not a national-view. Like right-wingers here in the sates, you are confusing the US ruling class with the US working class.

Yeah, the American left is very weak... unions are broken and the right wing is on the offensive.

But when you look at the polarization here, you also see the potential and that the AMerican working class has a long rich history of resistance just like the working classes of other countries:

- The first gay-liberation movement began in the US.

- The black power movement inspired workers both balck and white in the US and opressed workers in places like Africa and Ireland.

- May Day started in the states

Even now 72% of US troops say that the war should end and thousands of people are Marching in defiance of proposed anti-immigration legislation. In Chicago hundreds of thousands (mostly) Latinos stopped work and marched in "A day without immigrents".

Global_Justice

25th March 2006, 20:57

ask me if we really give a shit? ask me if we care? why DO they hate us? if it's not because of jelousy than i don't really know what it is..

:blink:

you really need to ask that question?

how about the support of dictators to oppress people so you can take some of the profits, in places like saudi arabia, kuwait etc.

or the invasions of places like iraq killing thousands of innocents?

or unfair trade in africa that makes money for US corporations while keeping the people in poverty.

and the rest are Muslims, ahahhaa

no the rest are athiest.

ok than, tell me who is the world's greatest country? please, tell me, im dying to know, who is more powerful than America economically, politically, and militarilly :lol: and we are not a champion of freedom? then who is? tell me who, which country is more of a champion than us? France? Italy? hahaha :lol: and we steal and we kill ? lol, so we are the only country in the world to ever have done these things? even though i acknoledge they are wrong, but countries do things for their own interest, thats just how things work, and no we don't think we are a "master race" wtf! :blink: , but of course we are going to think an American is more important than a Zimbabwian or something, you think Britain or France or Germany would think differently? think again.

i hate america because the american dream is a lie. the champion of freedom around the world, kills and steals oil from poor countries. the greatest democracy in the world has people making millions while millions live below the poverty line right round the corner.

america is the bully of the world, only a fucking bad bully who kills anyone who get's in it way or making money.

the american ideal - 3000 americans killed is the biggest tragedy the world has seen, 100,000 foreigners killed is a price worth paying :angry:

Global_Justice

25th March 2006, 21:00

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 06:43 AM

This is a really childish way to view fellow workers... I thought we were intrenationalists here with a class-view not a national-view. Like right-wingers here in the sates, you are confusing the US ruling class with the US working class.

i apologise for that mate. but i do think it is not just the ruling class. bible belt seems pretty strong, and lets not forget 60million people voted for george bush after the iraq war.

i went to colorado last year and a group of about 5 americans first of all thought i was from australia, which is fair enough. then i explained i was from england, to which they replied "where's that located at?" :o

Eleutherios

25th March 2006, 22:39

Originally posted by Oh-Dae-[email protected] 24 2006, 08:33 PM
why DO they hate us? if it's not because of jelousy than i don't really know what it is...
Listen to the Iraqi insurgents. They're not screaming "I hate those Americans because they have a good standard of living!" They're pissed because our military is bombing their neighbors. If Iraq had had better living conditions than Americans and had decided to invade us, overthrow our tyrant and bomb our neighbors, we'd be pissed too. Maybe even pissed enough to, I don't know, commit acts of violence against the invaders. Don't you think?

FULL METAL JACKET

25th March 2006, 23:32

i went to colorado last year and a group of about 5 americans first of all thought i was from australia, which is fair enough. then i explained i was from england, to which they replied "where's that located at?" :o
I have a few friends from Sweden and Spain that came to visit me last year. They loved it here in New York, but when they stepped out to other states they visited, they were asked the most ridiculous questions.

They told me that they were so shocked at the questions they didn't have time to be offended. When they told me what happened I think I was more saddened by the stupidity of fellow Americans rather than ashamed. And sadly so instances like that has happened to every foreigner I know that has come to visit here. :(

Oh-Dae-Su

26th March 2006, 04:29

well said gravedigger. You guys are acting like stupid racist people, it's like if i say "ALL BLACK PEOPLE STEAL", because i or somebody i know got something stolen by a black person, you all are generalizing. Plus FULL METAL JACKET (you have the name of a great movie by the way) , don't come here talking about ignorance, you are the one who believes that Mexico , Canada, and USA is not the same as saying North America and thus thinks that it would be catagorizing North America as a country :lol:

plus, Global Justice, how the hell am i supposed to distinguish between a British or Australian accent? or South African, or New Zealander or Scotish or w/e for that matter. Can you distinguish the accent of a southerner american from a New Yorker or something? you all pretty much sound the same to me and thats the truth, i sincerely can't tell between a Brit and an Australian, this doesn't have anything to do with ignorance or stupidity, so the incident you had is basically irrelevant; and pretty much shows your desperate attempts to call us "all" Americans ignorant and stupid, dude whats your problem? did an American make you look stupid in front of the "lads" one day? :lol:

our military is bombing their neighbors

please tell me day and neighberhood of the last "bomb" we dropped in Iraq? plus , it's called collateral damage, and what i have to say to those people is, until you invent a bomb that can go out recognize a one person target and kill him only, than keep realizing that technology only allows us to get the intelligence, locate the building were the supposed terrorist is, and attack it, if you are there with that terrorist even if your innocent civilian, sorry, you shouldnt be harvesting such religious radicals in your society.

how about the support of dictators to oppress people so you can take some of the profits, in places like saudi arabia, kuwait etc.

or the invasions of places like iraq killing thousands of innocents?

or unfair trade in africa that makes money for US corporations while keeping the people in poverty.

not true, the 4 reasons why we are hated in the world according to my Comperative Politics class textbook, is because of our support of Secularism around the world, this is viewed by most (specially muslims) as a society without morals. Also our support of Israel is another reason. Our dominiance in world economic affairs, this is our "imperialism" really, our economic power, . Also the threat of our culture (McDonald's, Nike, etc. etc. ) is another reason why we are hated. The globalization is the main factor in all of this, if your going to argue these reasons than go ahead im not even going to bother, i guess your a graduated proffesor from the University of Oxford :lol:

no the rest are athiest
:blink: so your telling me that everybody in England or, rather Great Britain is atheist? lmao :lol: don't make me laugh "mate"

only majority atheist country i know off is China, with 94-96 %, but according to my book this is just the officially, because many people still practice Buddhism and Daoism etc., but Britain, c'mon, with parties like the BNP! hahaha according to my book 61% of the population of the United Kingdom have religious affiliations, while 39 have none. While the USA comes out with 90% of the population with religious affiliation, so yes we have less atheist it's obvious, i concede that, but your saying that most of UK is atheist, which i proved to you is not correct, as more than half of the population are religious.

i hate america

wow, that's a strong word my friend, HATE, oooook, i thought communist weren't fascists? alrighty i give up, hateful people are not on my list of worthy opponents.

Eleutherios

26th March 2006, 07:31

Originally posted by Oh-Dae-[email protected] 26 2006, 04:38 AM

i hate america

wow, that's a strong word my friend, HATE, oooook, i thought communist weren't fascists? alrighty i give up, hateful people are not on my list of worthy opponents.
First of all, not everybody who hates something is a fascist. Secondly, his particular statement does not reflect communists as a whole. The vast majority of communists do not condone hating entire nations, but rather stress that people from all nations are equal and must support one another in their struggle against the ruling classes.

I do not hate America. Most communists and anarchists do not hate America. Rather, we hate the American government, but that is only because it has committed and continues to commit heinous acts of violence against innocent people. That is not the same as hating America. America is a piece of land between Canada and Mexico. How can you hate a piece of land? It is also not the same thing as hating the 300 million people who happen to live within that territory. Communists and anarchists know that Americans are on the whole not evil or immoral, but actually just regular working people who happen to be oppressed by a particularly tyrannical régime and a particularly strong bourgeoisie.

That is the problem with these patriots. They have an extremely difficult time distinguishing between hatred of a government and hatred of a people. There is a difference, a huge one. One is the oppressor, the other the oppressed.

Oh-Dae-Su

26th March 2006, 08:11

First of all, not everybody who hates something is a fascist
ohh yes, sorry, what were my other options? umm lets see, ohh yes, Taliban, Al-Qaeda and all those other groups, sorry, forgot to mention those :rolleyes:

it has committed and continues to commit heinous acts of violence against innocent people
tell me how our governmnet purpously indulges itself in these acts? i want to ask you another question, what country delivers more relief aid to starving/undeveloped/poor countries around the world? please tell me

It is also not the same thing as hating the 300 million people who happen to live within that territory
ohh defenitaly, it's not like we hated the "German" people but rather the Nazi party, that is understood, but if you actually read Global_Justice's lines closely, you would have been able to infer that his acusations are towards the American people.

examples:

lets not forget 60million people voted for george bush after the iraq war.

the only good thing about america is new york, at least the people there are normal.

in europe americans are a laughing stock, portrayed as fat, stupid and blindly patriotic people who go in head first into conflicts, kill first, ask questions later. i'm studying film, and a common insult to a film is "it's too american" "it's ok but the ending is american" etc.

yeah he sure is attacking our government left and right isn't he :rolleyes:

Nothing Human Is Alien

26th March 2006, 08:25

blink.gif so your telling me that everybody in England or, rather Great Britain is atheist? lmao laugh.gif don't make me laugh "mate"

only majority atheist country i know off is China, with 94-96 %, but according to my book this is just the officially, because many people still practice Buddhism and Daoism etc., but Britain, c'mon, with parties like the BNP! hahaha according to my book 61% of the population of the United Kingdom have religious affiliations, while 39 have none. While the USA comes out with 90% of the population with religious affiliation, so yes we have less atheist it's obvious, i concede that, but your saying that most of UK is atheist, which i proved to you is not correct, as more than half of the population are religious.

In the former East Germany, 88% of people don't believe in god.
In Sweden up to 85% of people don' t.
In Viet Nam 81% don't.
In Denmark up to 80% don't.
In Norway up to 72% don't.
In Japan 65% don't.
In the Czech Rep up around 60% don't.
In Finland up to 60% don't.
In France up to 54% don't.
In South Korea up to 52% don't.
In Estonia 49% don't.
In Germany around 45% don't.
In Russia up to 48% don't.
In Hungary up to 46% don't.
In Britain up to 44% don't.
In Israel up to 37% don't.
In China 8-14% don't.

etc. etc. etc.

source: http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_atheist.html

ohh yes, sorry, what were my other options? umm lets see, ohh yes, Taliban, Al-Qaeda and all those other groups, sorry, forgot to mention those

What are you, some kind of moron? Hate is an emotion, it's completely devoid of political connotation. And no one ever said communists didn't hate people. I hate capitalists with an extreme passion.

Nothing Human Is Alien

26th March 2006, 08:39

tell me how our governmnet purpously indulges itself in these acts?

Here's an example: http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Ronald_R...orce_ITNOD.html (http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Ronald_Reagan/Force_ITNOD.html)

i want to ask you another question, what country delivers more relief aid to starving/undeveloped/poor countries around the world? please tell me

As a percentage of what they have?? Lots! Cuba for one.

"Quick, how much does the US contribute to foreign aid, as a percent of its GNP? Two percent? One percent? No. Paula Hoy points out that the amount of US foreign aid is only 0.117 percent of the US GNP." - http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=count...G=Google+Search (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=country+most+aid+by+percentage&btnG=Google+Search)

"USA’s aid, in terms of percentage of their GNP has almost always been lower than any other industrialized nation in the world"
http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/D...lthisobligation (http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp#Almostallrichnationsfailthisobligation)

Denmark gave 1.1% of its GNP in 2001 Source (http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp#ForeignAidNumbersinChartsandGraphs)

" * Cuba has sent thousands of doctors and medical professionals to serve in the poorest areas of Latin America and Africa
* Cuba has treated more than 16,000 victims of the Chernobyl nuclear disaster
* Cuba is organizing a health-care task force to tackle the problem of the AIDS epidemic in Africa
* Cuba has trained hundreds of doctors from African and Latin American nations - all free of charge

Now Cuba is reaching out to "third world" regions in the United States, to train doctors for the cities and rural areas and reservations where medical services are most desperately needed."
http://www.ifconews.org/MedicalSchool/main.htm

"25,000 Cuban doctors are currently providing their services in 66 countries" & "...people with cataracts and other treatable eye problems can receive free corrective surgery in Cuba. The patients are provided with free transportation to and from Cuba, food, and lodging. So far tens of thousands of people from 10 countries -- including President Chavez's daughter -- have had their sight restored in such operations in Cuba. Cuban doctors perform about 1,500 of the eye operations a day. "
http://freepeoplesmovement.org/fp16e.html

"But some truths already speak for themselves: while Cuba’s financial resources are limited, its human resources are legion, and the country has shared both generously - deploying more health professionals abroad than the entire United Nations system and providing more scholarships in medicine than any other country in the world. Perhaps a call for others to step up to the plate."
http://www.medicc.org/medicc_review/1004/p...ion_report.html (http://www.medicc.org/medicc_review/1004/pages/international_cooperation_report.html)

Any other questions?

Oh-Dae-Su

26th March 2006, 09:50

well thank you companero, i didn't know all those countries had those percentages of atheist, well as i said,
only majority atheist country i know off is China so thank you again ;)

anyways, all that research you did to supposedly prove how other countries aid more than is is bull, so save it. Ever heard of "private organizations"? if there is any country that has more private organizations than us than ill me dammed! You base it on comparation to GNI, what does this have to do with anything? It's like comparing the fact that i have 20 pencils and i give 10, but you have 5 and you gave 4, and so statistically speaking by % you gave more, get real, that's pretty irrelevant man!

check this out: http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/40/3/35389786.pdf

this is just the assistance we give economically and politically to other countries.

ill just sum it up:

Quantity
Over the last 20 years, annual ODA has been between $50bn and $60bn. The United States is the world's largest contributor of ODA in absolute terms ($15.7 billion, 2003), but the smallest among developed countries as a percentage of its GDP (0.14% in 2003). The UN target for development aid is 0.7% of GDP; currently only five countries (with Norway in the lead with 0.92%) achieve this.

However, private contributions also make a significant, albeit harder to track, contribution to development aid. Private donations in the United States, for example, are estimated to be at least $34 billion dollars a year, broken down as such:

International giving by US foundations: $1.5 billion per year
Charitable giving by US businesses: $2.8 billion annually
American NGOs: $6.6 billion in grants, goods and volunteers.
Religious overseas ministries: $3.4 billion, including health care, literacy training, relief and development.
US colleges scholarships to foreign students: $1.3 billion
Personal remittances from the US to developing countries: $18 billion in 2000
It is this last figure, remittances, that blurs many definitions of aid: for example, money sent home by foreign workers is counted in this sum. The exact result and effect of remittance money is of some debate: however, even if it is factored out private donations still match ODA in the US. In many cases privately donated money is spent much more effectively than ODA, which must go through various governmental layers before reaching the problem. However, in other cases private sums disappear completely without any trace of their existence. Unfortunately, private aid figures are not tracked so well as ODA in many countries, so it is difficult to make across-the-board comparisons between various nations.

In the United States, popular estimates of spending on aid are often highly inflated - 15-25% of the federal budget is a typical answer; the real number is closer to 1%. In absolute terms, the $15-20bn of aid compares with $50bn spent annually on the war on drugs and $500bn spent on the military. Some commentators, such as Jeffrey Sachs, have said that if the US spent more money on helping the poor, it wouldn't need to spend quite so much on defending itself against them.

source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aid

other sources worth reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USAID
http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp

thank you :D

Nothing Human Is Alien

26th March 2006, 10:25

You base it on comparation to GNI, what does this have to do with anything? It's like comparing the fact that i have 20 pencils and i give 10, but you have 5 and you gave 4, and so statistically speaking by % you gave more, get real, that's pretty irrelevant man!

It is??? What planet do you live on?? So if an abosolutely poor homeless man gives you half of his sandwich, which is the only food he has, that's some how less generous than a rich man buying you a hamburger for $5??

Get the fuck out of here.

Global_Justice

26th March 2006, 19:06

Originally posted by Oh-Dae-[email protected] 26 2006, 04:38 AM

plus, Global Justice, how the hell am i supposed to distinguish between a British or Australian accent? or South African, or New Zealander or Scotish or w/e for that matter. Can you distinguish the accent of a southerner american from a New Yorker or something? you all pretty much sound the same to me and thats the truth, i sincerely can't tell between a Brit and an Australian, this doesn't have anything to do with ignorance or stupidity, so the incident you had is basically irrelevant; and pretty much shows your desperate attempts to call us "all" Americans ignorant and stupid, dude whats your problem? did an American make you look stupid in front of the "lads" one day? :lol:

mate, if you read the post you'll see i said the fact he thought i was australian was fair enough, my point was the fact he akes me "where's england located at?" you are selescting only bits of what i said, but ignoring the rest, obviously you can't retort to the main points.

[

not true, the 4 reasons why we are hated in the world according to my Comperative Politics class textbook, is because of our support of Secularism around the world, this is viewed by most (specially muslims) as a society without morals. Also our support of Israel is another reason. Our dominiance in world economic affairs, this is our "imperialism" really, our economic power, . Also the threat of our culture (McDonald's, Nike, etc. etc. ) is another reason why we are hated. The globalization is the main factor in all of this, if your going to argue these reasons than go ahead im not even going to bother, i guess your a graduated proffesor from the University of Oxford :lol:

i'll agree those are reasons, i'd say the main reasons were "imperialism", globalisation (that is more anti- capatalist than anti-us as obviously it's not just america), and military intervention and CIA intervention in elections etc.

:blink: so your telling me that everybody in England or, rather Great Britain is atheist? lmao :lol: don't make me laugh "mate"

only majority atheist country i know off is China, with 94-96 %, but according to my book this is just the officially, because many people still practice Buddhism and Daoism etc., but Britain, c'mon, with parties like the BNP! hahaha according to my book 61% of the population of the United Kingdom have religious affiliations, while 39 have none. While the USA comes out with 90% of the population with religious affiliation, so yes we have less atheist it's obvious, i concede that, but your saying that most of UK is atheist, which i proved to you is not correct, as more than half of the population are religious.

no mate, what i said was, only 1 of my mates is religious, the rest are athiest. not the rest of the country, the rest of my mates :o i'd say 60% sounds about right when you take into consideration catholics and protestants in northern ireland & scotland, and the 2.5 million muslims.

wow, that's a strong word my friend, HATE, oooook, i thought communist weren't fascists? alrighty i give up, hateful people are not on my list of worthy opponents.

it's interesting you missed out the reasons in the quote and just put the "i hate america" bit, this is typical american, if someone hates america it doesn't matter the reasons. must be because i hate democracy or freedom, eh?

but in saying that, i restract the word hate for dislike. hate is a strong word, and saying i hate a country was silly of me because that is generalising, and quite xenophobic.

for the record i am neither fascist nor communist, but socialist.

back to my point above about selective quoting, you missed the last bit

i hate america because the american dream is a lie. the champion of freedom around the world, kills and steals oil from poor countries. the greatest democracy in the world has people making millions while millions live below the poverty line right round the corner.

reply?

america is the bully of the world, only a fucking bad bully who kills anyone who get's in it way or making money.

the american ideal - 3000 americans killed is the biggest tragedy the world has seen, 100,000 foreigners killed is a price worth paying

obviously in your post you call it
collateral damage strange, i don't think people who have been affected call it that. it is murder

Global_Justice

26th March 2006, 19:07

Originally posted by FULL METAL [email protected] 25 2006, 11:41 PM

i went to colorado last year and a group of about 5 americans first of all thought i was from australia, which is fair enough. then i explained i was from england, to which they replied "where's that located at?" :o
I have a few friends from Sweden and Spain that came to visit me last year. They loved it here in New York, but when they stepped out to other states they visited, they were asked the most ridiculous questions.

They told me that they were so shocked at the questions they didn't have time to be offended. When they told me what happened I think I was more saddened by the stupidity of fellow Americans rather than ashamed. And sadly so instances like that has happened to every foreigner I know that has come to visit here. :(
thats what i meant above when i said i liked new york. :lol:

Oh-Dae-Su

26th March 2006, 19:07

It is??? What planet do you live on?? So if an abosolutely poor homeless man gives you half of his sandwich, which is the only food he has, that's some how less generous than a rich man buying you a hamburger for $5??

Get the fuck out of here.

who says it's less generous? in fact the example you gave are both generous. :lol:

You mean if a homeless gives half his sandwich to a starving kid, and i buy the kid a happy meal in McDonald's.. sure, what the homeless is doing is very admirable and generous, but ain't what im doing as well? plus, we are talking about "MORE" here, statistics, and statistically i would be giving the kid MORE! than half a sandwich. Plus we are talking about governments, and the homeless example is very exagerated, no country gives 3/4th's of it's GNI to charity or whatever, the most is like what? 0.87 , c'mon. Plus America has the most private organizations, appart from our government aid, as said in the links i gave you, private aid alone from Americans is 34 BILLION. So, BUUU YAAA! :D

Global_Justice

26th March 2006, 19:13

for the record my attack was at the government, not the people. but i was also pointing out that 60 million voted for that government.

also, i said "americans are portrayed as...." and that is how they are portrayed, but i wasn't saying that is what they are/all are.

but i detracted my statement about hating america anyway :lol:

Oh-Dae-Su

26th March 2006, 22:55

he akes me "where's england located at?"

ok yeah thats very impressive, wow

only 1 of my mates is religious, the rest are athiest. not the rest of the country, the rest of my mates

well now i know your talking about your friends.

i hate america because the american dream is a lie. the champion of freedom around the world, kills and steals oil from poor countries. the greatest democracy in the world has people making millions while millions live below the poverty line right round the corner.

reply?

so it is a lie? really? well guess what? im living that dream right now, im an immigrant to this country and im middle class, i earn 2000 a month and i go to the University. Yes of course we are the champion of freedom around the world, we liberated Cuba and Philipines from Spanish colonialism, we liberated South Korea from communist attack, we liberated Kuwait amongst others. I hate the arguments about stealing oil bla bla bla, c'mon people get real, we go into a country, we liberate it, or we give it all sorts of aid, sorry your going to be bound to us and the pay we want is oil , simple as that. I can't believe you all who think you don't do things for your own interest, thats bull, because thats how governments work as well as humans, and it's only human for the strongest nation in the world to try to secure it's place, and to do things for it's own good.

strange, i don't think people who have been affected call it that. it is murder

ohh im sure they don't call it that, but what are you? are you one of those pacifists who still believes the atomic bomb shouldn't have been dropped? :rolleyes:

"For a good cause, wrongdoings are virtuous" Publilius Syrus