THE CUBAN PEOPLE HAVE SUFFERED ENOUGH

[S G-Bang]

Castro's own daughter cannot wait for him to die. She even escaped the hellhole.

The hospitals literally have human excrement on the floor.

Havana, once one of the most gorgeous cities in the world, has been reduced to a filthy ghetto.

OVERTHROW CASTRO NOW and free the Cuabn people!!!!!!!!!!

[Oh-Dae-Su]

^^ im backing you all the way bro. One of the things that i find stupid was that Bush went thousands of miles to invade a shithole and get rid of a dictator who didnt even have toothpicks to clean his dirty teeth, and we have one dictator 90 miles away from our shores who is potentially maybe a bigger threat. Ahh but yes Cuba doesn't have oil, i can bet both my testicles that if Cuba had oil, Iraq's scenario would playing somewhere else. ;)

[More Fire for the People]

I giggled. Poor Cuba, being the most progressive country in all of South America with genuine proletarian democracy at the grassroots level.

[FULL METAL JACKET]

The hospitals literally have human excrement on the floor.
Proof?


Havana, once one of the most gorgeous cities in the world, has been reduced to a filthy ghetto.
Cuba is still gorgeous. There are no ghettos in Cuba.


OVERTHROW CASTRO NOW and free the Cuabn people!!!!!!!!!!
If there was a invasion the Cuban people will really suffer. I thought you wanted to end it? You dumb cappie stop trying to meddle in other countries politics.

[S G-Bang]

all those iraqis liberated and nothing from the liberals

nothing

had bubba done it, he'd be hailed as the greatest humanitarian in the history of the world.

[S G-Bang]

Originally posted by FULL METAL [email protected] 19 2006, 01:15 AM

The hospitals literally have human excrement on the floor.
Proof?


Havana, once one of the most gorgeous cities in the world, has been reduced to a filthy ghetto.
Cuba is still gorgeous. There are no ghettos in Cuba.


OVERTHROW CASTRO NOW and free the Cuabn people!!!!!!!!!!
If there was a invasion the Cuban people will really suffer. I thought you wanted to end it? You dumb cappie stop trying to meddle in other countries politics.
read it and weep, sparky.

http://www.therealcuba.com/Page10.htm

also, your line about the cuban people really suffering after an invasion is absurd. They can't possible suffer any worse than they are now.

also, if we overthrew castro, the people there would only be part of the greatest system ever devised by anybody anywhere. Yeah, that would be bad.

:lol:

graduate the 8th grade and get back to me.

[FULL METAL JACKET]

Originally posted by S G-[email protected] 18 2006, 08:15 PM
all those iraqis liberated and nothing from the liberals

nothing

had bubba done it, he'd be hailed as the greatest humanitarian in the history of the world.
Iraqis liberated? You mean those kids shot up by U.S troops?

[S G-Bang]

Originally posted by Hopscotch [email protected] 19 2006, 01:13 AM
I giggled. Poor Cuba, being the most progressive country in all of South America with genuine proletarian democracy at the grassroots level.
Cuba is a hellhole. Wise up.

www.therealcuba.com

[More Fire for the People]

The REAL real Cuba. (http://www.freepeoplesmovement.org/cuba/)

[FULL METAL JACKET]

Originally posted by S G-Bang+Mar 18 2006, 08:18 PM--> (S G-Bang @ Mar 18 2006, 08:18 PM)
FULL METAL [email protected] 19 2006, 01:15 AM

The hospitals literally have human excrement on the floor.
Proof?


Havana, once one of the most gorgeous cities in the world, has been reduced to a filthy ghetto.
Cuba is still gorgeous. There are no ghettos in Cuba.


OVERTHROW CASTRO NOW and free the Cuabn people!!!!!!!!!!
If there was a invasion the Cuban people will really suffer. I thought you wanted to end it? You dumb cappie stop trying to meddle in other countries politics.
read it and weep, sparky.

http://www.therealcuba.com/Page10.htm

also, your line about the cuban people really suffering after an invasion is absurd. They can't possible suffer any worse than they are now.

also, if we overthrew castro, the people there would only be part of the greatest system ever devised by anybody anywhere. Yeah, that would be bad.

:lol:

graduate the 8th grade and get back to me. [/b]
:lol: As if anything from that site should be taken seriously. Just check the "humor" section and see how serious they are. After that please click the "X" button on the top right corner of your screen.

[S G-Bang]

Originally posted by FULL METAL JACKET+Mar 19 2006, 01:18 AM--> (FULL METAL JACKET @ Mar 19 2006, 01:18 AM)
S G-[email protected] 18 2006, 08:15 PM
all those iraqis liberated and nothing from the liberals

nothing

had bubba done it, he'd be hailed as the greatest humanitarian in the history of the world.
Iraqis liberated? You mean those kids shot up by U.S troops? [/b]
what's preferable, some collateral damage or another million butchered by Saddam?

If you're using innocent deaths as the yardstick, you better side with me unless you want to be unabashedly intellectually dishonest.

Saddam killed many, many more than innocent deaths as a result of the U.S. invasion.

Besides, you're spinning propaganda. In your moronic revolution, you'd support killing anybody or anything that stood in the way of everybody being dirt poor. And make no mistake, that's what communism would be, except for the rich elite.

People don't want to be poor. Don't you commie tools get that?

[S G-Bang]

Originally posted by FULL METAL JACKET+Mar 19 2006, 01:20 AM--> (FULL METAL JACKET @ Mar 19 2006, 01:20 AM)
Originally posted by S G-[email protected] 18 2006, 08:18 PM

FULL METAL [email protected] 19 2006, 01:15 AM

The hospitals literally have human excrement on the floor.
Proof?


Havana, once one of the most gorgeous cities in the world, has been reduced to a filthy ghetto.
Cuba is still gorgeous. There are no ghettos in Cuba.


OVERTHROW CASTRO NOW and free the Cuabn people!!!!!!!!!!
If there was a invasion the Cuban people will really suffer. I thought you wanted to end it? You dumb cappie stop trying to meddle in other countries politics.
read it and weep, sparky.

http://www.therealcuba.com/Page10.htm

also, your line about the cuban people really suffering after an invasion is absurd. They can't possible suffer any worse than they are now.

also, if we overthrew castro, the people there would only be part of the greatest system ever devised by anybody anywhere. Yeah, that would be bad.

:lol:

graduate the 8th grade and get back to me.
:lol: As if anything from that site should be taken seriously. Just check the "humor" section and see how serious they are. After that please click the "X" button on the top right corner of your screen. [/b]
typical social fascist.

the truth hurts, doesn't it?

Did you see the pic of the old man walking in his own sh*t?

How about the bathrooms?

:lol:

After that, check out the photos of the ghettos

[Oh-Dae-Su]

being the most progressive country in all of South America

OMG! lmao :lol: how do you go about and respond to such ignorant people? hahaha, Hopscotch Anthill first of all when you can actually locate Cuba in a map, and correctly say what region of the world it is located on, then come here and make an arguement, until then yes giggle hahaha

FULL


Proof?

well yeah i think he went a little overboard with excrement on the floor :lol: , but no seriously the hospitals and not just hospitals , everywhere you go (except tourist places) its all pretty dirty, looks inhumane. The health care in Cuba is free, which is great, and the doctors are probably the best in Latin America, but like i have said before, what is this good for when the equipment necessary is not available? people have to ask their relatives who live in Miami to send them medicine because unfortunately there is non in Cuba. It's like being a great painter but you don't have brushes or somwhere to paint on.



Cuba is still gorgeous. There are no ghettos in Cuba.

ohh yeah , i mean the natural beauty of a country you can't take unless you drop 10 atomic bombs :lol: (although ironically thats how Habana looks like) hehehe
and there is not ghettos in Cuba? are you kidding me? of course there are ghetto's in Cuba in the actual meaning of the word and in the slang, there are Jewish as well as Chinese communities in Habana for example, and all of the "barrios" of Habana like i said look like they dropped an atomic bomb, they look like Stalingrad after WWII , all the buildings are beaten down, the streets dirty, etc.


If there was a invasion the Cuban people will really suffer. I thought you wanted to end it? You dumb cappie stop trying to meddle in other countries politics.

well i don't think USA can invade Cuba anyways, i think after the Cuban Missle Crisis the USA agreed not to interfere in Cuba if im correct? but anyway, i dont think it will HURT the people more. With a population that has 90+ % supporting a coup against Castro and supporting 100% America (Cubans adore the USA, i can tell you from my experiences as a Cuban born in Cuba, now living in America) i highly doubt the same scenario that is playing out in Iraq will play in Cuba, we are not radicals driven by religion i can tell you that much.

[FULL METAL JACKET]

what's preferable, some collateral damage or another million butchered by Saddam?
So is that why we invaded Iraq? Funny because when Saddam butchered all those people he did it under our support. So wise up kiddo. When he killed all those Shiites he had U.S and UK backing.


Saddam killed many, many more than innocent deaths as a result of the U.S. invasion.
You make no sense.


Besides, you're spinning propaganda. In your moronic revolution, you'd support killing anybody or anything that stood in the way of everybody being dirt poor. And make no mistake, that's what communism would be, except for the rich elite.

People don't want to be poor. Don't you commie tools get that?
Communism want's to make people poor. Read up on communism then post here. Check the learning section.

[S G-Bang]

Originally posted by Hopscotch [email protected] 19 2006, 01:20 AM
The REAL real Cuba. (http://www.freepeoplesmovement.org/cuba/)
How many times will idiots be duped by dictators like Castro?

This man controls everything! Of course Cuba has the greatest of everything? Why else would thousands upon thousands of people be risking life and limb to escape?

:lol:

Everybody thought the Soviet Union was the greatest thing in the world too. Why? Because Komrade Stalin said so.

wise up, it's a hellhole. You know it.

[S G-Bang]

Originally posted by FULL METAL [email protected] 19 2006, 01:27 AM

what's preferable, some collateral damage or another million butchered by Saddam?
So is that why we invaded Iraq? Funny because when Saddam butchered all those people he did it under our support. So wise up kiddo. When he killed all those Shiites he had U.S and UK backing.


Saddam killed many, many more than innocent deaths as a result of the U.S. invasion.
You make no sense.


Besides, you're spinning propaganda. In your moronic revolution, you'd support killing anybody or anything that stood in the way of everybody being dirt poor. And make no mistake, that's what communism would be, except for the rich elite.

People don't want to be poor. Don't you commie tools get that?
Communism want's to make people poor. Read up on communism then post here. Check the learning section.
I didn't say why we invaded. I'm talking about a benefit that occured no matter what the reason was.

If you go to the grocery store to buy some lettuce and meet the hottest chick on earth, do you say, "I'm sorry, I cannot date you because I'm here to buy bread."?

I make perfect sense. Read more carefully. Saddam butchered MANY more innocent people than the amount that died as a result of the US invasion.

also, communism would make everybody poor. Look at Cuba.

[S G-Bang]

I also laughed at Cuba being in South America.

:lol:

[More Fire for the People]

This man controls everything! Of course Cuba has the greatest of everything? Why else would thousands upon thousands of people be risking life and limb to escape?
Because the United States won't let more than a few hundred Cubans emigrate legally?


This man controls everything! Of course Cuba has the greatest of everything? Why else would thousands upon thousands of people be risking life and limb to escape?
I wasn't aware that Castro controlled UN diplomats and scientists.


Everybody thought the Soviet Union was the greatest thing in the world too. Why? Because Komrade Stalin said so.
Stalin was a populist, when not paranoid he is comparable to America's Theodore Roosevelt. Soviet Russia had much higher living standards than todays Russian Federation.


I also laughed at Cuba being in South America.
I meant Latin America but Cuba seems more South American. Cuban culture is similar to that of South America and Cuba is more politically-centered on South American politics rather than Central American.

[which doctor]

Do you have any facts from a reputable source do back your accusations up? Probaly not.

[PRC-UTE]

Let's just say for the sake of argument that the photo was true and wasn't the exception to the norm.

In the USA, terrible conditions in nursing homes are well documented. This isn't in dispute. Serious abuse and even murder occur without punishment.

Should Canada invade the USA?

[FULL METAL JACKET]

I make perfect sense. Read more carefully. Saddam butchered MANY more innocent people than the amount that died as a result of the US invasion.
What don't you understand? He butchered those people under U.S support. The death toll for Iraqis in the war is well over 30,000. Saddam killed fewer Iraqis then the U.S army, who can doubt that? Am not defending Saddam, he is a prick and he still killed is own people but the fact is the U.S has killed more Iraqi's then Saddam.

Saddam hasn't killed more than 1 million Iraqis so don't be ridiculous.


also, communism would make everybody poor. Look at Cuba.
Read up some facts about the embargo and what it is doing to Cuba.

[S G-Bang]

Originally posted by Hopscotch [email protected] 19 2006, 01:36 AM

This man controls everything! Of course Cuba has the greatest of everything? Why else would thousands upon thousands of people be risking life and limb to escape?
Because the United States won't let more than a few hundred Cubans emigrate legally?


This man controls everything! Of course Cuba has the greatest of everything? Why else would thousands upon thousands of people be risking life and limb to escape?
I wasn't aware that Castro controlled UN diplomats and scientists.


Everybody thought the Soviet Union was the greatest thing in the world too. Why? Because Komrade Stalin said so.
Stalin was a populist, when not paranoid he is comparable to America's Theodore Roosevelt. Soviet Russia had much higher living standards than todays Russian Federation.
No, because Cuba is a hellhole.

Wise up.

You even have a Cuban here telling you as much and still you cling to your myth.

[black magick hustla]

:lol:

It is brilliant to try to compare Cuba to first world democracies.

I couldn't expect more. :o

The american capitalist, with his contempt against socialism will always spit on Cuba and on Venezuela. However he never addresses the shithole that is Latin America. It is a fact that the Cuban population has a better quality of life than most of the other Latin American population.

Why don't you compare Cuba to Honduras, Belize, Guatemala, and Columbia instead?

All of them follow the excellent american model of capitalism!

[S G-Bang]

Originally posted by FULL METAL [email protected] 19 2006, 01:38 AM

I make perfect sense. Read more carefully. Saddam butchered MANY more innocent people than the amount that died as a result of the US invasion.
What don't you understand? He butchered those people under U.S support. The death toll for Iraqis in the war is well over 30,000. Saddam killed fewer Iraqis then the U.S army, who can doubt that? Am not defending Saddam, he is a prick and he still killed is own people but the fact is the U.S has killed more Iraqi's then Saddam.

Saddam hasn't killed more than 1 million Iraqis so don't be ridiculous.


also, communism would make everybody poor. Look at Cuba.
Read up some facts about the embargo and what it is doing to Cuba.
Communism's professed goal is worldwide revolution. Of course the US would embargo a regime like that.

If communism is so great, why is cuba a hellhole?

Why do communist countries need support from the US to do well?

All they need to do is grow food and feed their people. They can't even do that for a few million.

FREE LOS CUBANOS!

[More Fire for the People]

Originally posted by S G-[email protected] 18 2006, 07:39 PM
No, because Cuba is a hellhole.

Wise up.

You even have a Cuban here telling you as much and still you cling to your myth.
Yes I need to wise up seeing as I'm not the one spouting subjective nonsense. Until you provide real evidence from a credible source I hold on to my objective scientific "myth".

Also, S G-Bang have you ever even read Marx? If so, what books?


Why do communist countries need support from the US to do well?
Cuba needs key medical devices from the United States as the it is the only coutnry to produce such things.

[FULL METAL JACKET]

Originally posted by S G-Bang+Mar 18 2006, 08:39 PM--> (S G-Bang @ Mar 18 2006, 08:39 PM)
Hopscotch [email protected] 19 2006, 01:36 AM

This man controls everything! Of course Cuba has the greatest of everything? Why else would thousands upon thousands of people be risking life and limb to escape?
Because the United States won't let more than a few hundred Cubans emigrate legally?


This man controls everything! Of course Cuba has the greatest of everything? Why else would thousands upon thousands of people be risking life and limb to escape?
I wasn't aware that Castro controlled UN diplomats and scientists.


Everybody thought the Soviet Union was the greatest thing in the world too. Why? Because Komrade Stalin said so.
Stalin was a populist, when not paranoid he is comparable to America's Theodore Roosevelt. Soviet Russia had much higher living standards than todays Russian Federation.
No, because Cuba is a hellhole.

Wise up.

You even have a Cuban here telling you as much and still you cling to your myth. [/b]
:lol: Are you seriously going to have that same response to every post?


No, because Cuba is a hellhole.

Wise up.
:lol: You've said that three times, in three differen't posts. Please read up on communism and the effects of the embargo on Cuba. You've already made a fool of yourself.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

Because the United States won't let more than a few hundred Cubans emigrate legally?

the USA actually has a law that even if Cubans enter this country illegally they can stay, they are the only people that can be treated as such, because they are escaping a totalitarian regime. Also do you think Cuba lets people out of the country freely? you have to be sooo dumb to actually think that. If you are cought trying to leave the country you are either executed or jailed, thats the reality.

[S G-Bang]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 01:40 AM
:lol:

It is brilliant to try to compare Cuba to first world democracies.

I couldn't expect more. :o

The american capitalist, with his contempt against socialism will always spit on Cuba and on Venezuela. However he never addresses the shithole that is Latin America. It is a fact that the Cuban population has a better quality of life than most of the other Latin American population.

Why don't you compare Cuba to Honduras, Belize, Guatemala, and Columbia instead?

All of them follow the excellent american model of capitalism!
Cuba is just as much of a hellhole.

You make the mistake of believing castro

[FULL METAL JACKET]

Originally posted by Oh-Dae-[email protected] 18 2006, 08:43 PM

Because the United States won't let more than a few hundred Cubans emigrate legally?

the USA actually has a law that even if Cubans enter this country illegally they can stay, they are the only people that can be treated as such, because they are escaping a totalitarian regime. Also do you think Cuba lets people out of the country freely? you have to be sooo dumb to actually think that. If you are cought trying to leave the country you are either executed or jailed, thats the reality.
Yet if a U.S citizen is caught coming back from Cuba he is issued a fine of $7,500. So much for U.S freedom eh?

[S G-Bang]

Originally posted by Fist of [email protected] 19 2006, 01:36 AM
Do you have any facts from a reputable source do back your accusations up? Probaly not.
do pictures lie?

get on google and do your own research.

find out for yourself, if you have the balls to challenge your own brainwashing. You're not going to believe me anyway.

[More Fire for the People]

Pictures are not scientific facts.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

Yet if a U.S citizen is caught coming back from Cuba he is issued a fine of $7,500. So much for U.S freedom eh?

well to what extent is freedom to you? how many people want to go to North Korea? i think a $7,500 is a small price to pay to go visit an enemy of your own ideology and country. Unless of course your a communist American, hahaha we make that fine on purpouse so that you think about it twice and stay in Cuba, see how much your going to love the Marxist Leninist school of communism. ;) on the other hand if your a Cuban naturalized american, you can go without a fine. Anyways, when you go to Cuba as a non-Cuban toursit your leaving your money stright into Fidelito's Swiss Bank account, in the other hand when you go as a Cuban American at least you do it indirectly with your family memebers so that at least they can enjoy some much needed material necessities.

[S G-Bang]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 01:40 AM
Why don't you compare Cuba to Honduras, Belize, Guatemala, and Columbia instead?

With the exception of Honduras, all have a considerably higher per capita GDP than Cuba.

NEXT!

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by S G-Bang+Mar 19 2006, 01:45 AM--> (S G-Bang @ Mar 19 2006, 01:45 AM)
[email protected] 19 2006, 01:40 AM
:lol:

It is brilliant to try to compare Cuba to first world democracies.

I couldn't expect more. :o

The american capitalist, with his contempt against socialism will always spit on Cuba and on Venezuela. However he never addresses the shithole that is Latin America. It is a fact that the Cuban population has a better quality of life than most of the other Latin American population.

Why don't you compare Cuba to Honduras, Belize, Guatemala, and Columbia instead?

All of them follow the excellent american model of capitalism!
Cuba is just as much of a hellhole.

You make the mistake of believing castro [/b]
What.


:lol:

First of all I am not even a castroist, I am an anarchist. However I acknowledge that Cuba is not the police state you people think it is.

have you ever been to Latin America?

Well, I do live in it so I know how bad it is.

The Cuban people have free access to university education, healthcare, and nobody is starving. Cuba has a lower child mortality rate than USA.


There isn't a cuban kid living in the street.

Besides, Cuba has one of the most oustanding grassroot democracies in the world.

Seriously, how dare you make such idiotic assumptions? Why you people never criticize the governments of Guatemala, Honduras, etc, but you charge against the relatively well latin american countries like Cuba and Venezuela?

Make some research by yourself or shut the fuck up.

[FULL METAL JACKET]

Originally posted by Oh-Dae-[email protected] 18 2006, 08:54 PM

Yet if a U.S citizen is caught coming back from Cuba he is issued a fine of $7,500. So much for U.S freedom eh?

well to what extent is freedom to you? how many people want to go to North Korea? i think a $7,500 is a small price to pay to go visit an enemy of your own ideology and country.
Oh so forget being anti-castro you're just anti-Cuban.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

Pictures are not scientific facts.

what are you talking about? isn't a microscopic picture of a cell a scientif fact? anyways what are you suggesting that a picture of a man with beaten clothes that have at least 10 holes on them lying sleeping in an even dirtier ground without shoes has to be proven scientifically that he is homeless? :blink: ohh please you really have nothing else to say to admit the truth do you? c'mon people be practical for once in your life, the fact is i have been to Cuba , and if it was otherwise you can trust me that i would be saying the contrary.

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by S G-Bang+Mar 19 2006, 01:54 AM--> (S G-Bang @ Mar 19 2006, 01:54 AM)
[email protected] 19 2006, 01:40 AM
Why don't you compare Cuba to Honduras, Belize, Guatemala, and Columbia instead?

With the exception of Honduras, all have a considerably higher per capita GDP than Cuba.

NEXT! [/b]
:lol:

You don't know how the fuck the economy works, at all don't you?

The GDP per capita is the total currency divided by the population. Thus, if someone has huge amounts of money, but others don't have anything, it gets divided anyway.

It means nothing, considering 95% of the wealth is allocated in 5% of the population in the world.

[S G-Bang]

Originally posted by Marmot+Mar 19 2006, 01:55 AM--> (Marmot @ Mar 19 2006, 01:55 AM)
Originally posted by S G-[email protected] 19 2006, 01:45 AM

[email protected] 19 2006, 01:40 AM
:lol:

It is brilliant to try to compare Cuba to first world democracies.

I couldn't expect more. :o

The american capitalist, with his contempt against socialism will always spit on Cuba and on Venezuela. However he never addresses the shithole that is Latin America. It is a fact that the Cuban population has a better quality of life than most of the other Latin American population.

Why don't you compare Cuba to Honduras, Belize, Guatemala, and Columbia instead?

All of them follow the excellent american model of capitalism!
Cuba is just as much of a hellhole.

You make the mistake of believing castro
What.


:lol:

First of all I am not even a castroist, I am an anarchist. However I acknowledge that Cuba is not the police state you people think it is.

have you ever been to Latin America?

Well, I do live in it so I know how bad it is.

The Cuban people have free access to university education, healthcare, and nobody is starving. Cuba has a lower child mortality rate than USA.


There isn't a cuban kid living in the street.

Besides, Cuba has one of the most oustanding grassroot democracies in the world.

Seriously, how dare you make such idiotic assumptions? Why you people never criticize the governments of Guatemala, Honduras, etc, but you charge against the relatively well latin american countries like Cuba and Venezuela?

Make some research by yourself or shut the fuck up. [/b]
I enjoyed your meltdown. One of the better and more entertaining ones so far.

:lol:

Cuba is a hellhole and you know it. Anybody over the age of 18 should know it or they're just morons.

Methinks the lady doth protest too much!!!!!! :lol:

[Oh-Dae-Su]

Oh so forget being anti-castro you're just anti-Cuban.

:blink: ummm yeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaa? im against my own people? wtf! :blink:

[S G-Bang]

Originally posted by Marmot+Mar 19 2006, 01:58 AM--> (Marmot @ Mar 19 2006, 01:58 AM)
Originally posted by S G-[email protected] 19 2006, 01:54 AM

[email protected] 19 2006, 01:40 AM
Why don't you compare Cuba to Honduras, Belize, Guatemala, and Columbia instead?

With the exception of Honduras, all have a considerably higher per capita GDP than Cuba.

NEXT!
:lol:

You don't know how the fuck the economy works, at all don't you?

The GDP per capita is the total currency divided by the population. Thus, if someone has huge amounts of money, but others don't have anything, it gets divided anyway.

It means nothing, considering 95% of the wealth is allocated in 5% of the population in the world. [/b]
Right, so what's the barometer? All those pics of Cuba's slums and decrepit hospitals not enough for you?

What other proof do you need?

why did over 2,700 people (that we know of) risk their lives to flee cuba last year alone?

answer that question or I'll have to chalk you up as just another dishonest propagandizer

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by S G-Bang+Mar 19 2006, 01:58 AM--> (S G-Bang @ Mar 19 2006, 01:58 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 01:55 AM

Originally posted by S G-[email protected] 19 2006, 01:45 AM

[email protected] 19 2006, 01:40 AM
:lol:

It is brilliant to try to compare Cuba to first world democracies.

I couldn't expect more. :o

The american capitalist, with his contempt against socialism will always spit on Cuba and on Venezuela. However he never addresses the shithole that is Latin America. It is a fact that the Cuban population has a better quality of life than most of the other Latin American population.

Why don't you compare Cuba to Honduras, Belize, Guatemala, and Columbia instead?

All of them follow the excellent american model of capitalism!
Cuba is just as much of a hellhole.

You make the mistake of believing castro
What.


:lol:

First of all I am not even a castroist, I am an anarchist. However I acknowledge that Cuba is not the police state you people think it is.

have you ever been to Latin America?

Well, I do live in it so I know how bad it is.

The Cuban people have free access to university education, healthcare, and nobody is starving. Cuba has a lower child mortality rate than USA.


There isn't a cuban kid living in the street.

Besides, Cuba has one of the most oustanding grassroot democracies in the world.

Seriously, how dare you make such idiotic assumptions? Why you people never criticize the governments of Guatemala, Honduras, etc, but you charge against the relatively well latin american countries like Cuba and Venezuela?

Make some research by yourself or shut the fuck up.
I enjoyed your meltdown. One of the better and more entertaining ones so far.

:lol:

Cuba is a hellhole and you know it. Anybody over the age of 18 should know it or they're just morons.

Methinks the lady doth protest too much!!!!!! :lol: [/b]

Haha, I write relatively lengthy posts and you respond by covering your ears and shouting "CUBA IS A HELLHOLE".

No arguments to back it up.

What could I expect, anyway. ;)

[FULL METAL JACKET]

Originally posted by Oh-Dae-[email protected] 18 2006, 08:59 PM

Oh so forget being anti-castro you're just anti-Cuban.

:blink: ummm yeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaa? im against my own people? wtf! :blink:

Oh so forget being anti-castro you're just anti-Cuban.

:blink: ummm yeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaa? im against my own people? wtf! :blink:
You said:


$7,500 is a small price to pay to go visit an enemy of your own ideology and country.
So nobody is the enemy now :lol: You need to turn off the computer now and take a nap.



Cuba is a hellhole and you know it. Anybody over the age of 18 should know it or they're just morons.
Seriously you said that line now 5 times, just stop posting. You're not willing to answer serious questions. It's all Cuba is hellhole.

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by S G-[email protected] 19 2006, 02:01 AM
Right, so what's the barometer? All those pics of Cuba's slums and decrepit hospitals not enough for you?

What other proof do you need?

why did over 2,700 people (that we know of) risk their lives to flee cuba last year alone?

answer that question or I'll have to chalk you up as just another dishonest propagandizer
Oh, I have already seen that webpage a long time ago.

I don't doubt there are slums, like in any latin american place.

However, the guys in the photos seem pretty well fed and they have quality clothing.

Why don't you speak about the thousands of mexicans risking their life through the border? Why do you pick on Cuba instead?

Cuba is a third world country, america is a first world one. Obviously, there will be people who want to have better wages.

It is common sense.

And besides, where did you get that number?

[S G-Bang]

why would people risk life and limb to escape cuba if it's so great?

Will somebody answer that for me?

If it's so prosperous, couldn't they make better rafts?

thanks in advance

[Oh-Dae-Su]

So nobody is the enemy now You need to turn off the computer now and take a nap.

yes Fidel and all his brainwashed pawns, those are the enemies. Not the Cuban people you dick, like i said the Cuban people want a change, how can they be the enemy if they are against the few who support Castro and Castro himself and the small oligarchy that wipe his ass day in day out. Im Cuban , your not, so shut up, i wouldn't argue an Iraqi who can speak for his people's sentiment even if it contradicts what we Americans say.

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by S G-[email protected] 19 2006, 02:20 AM
why would people risk life and limb to escape cuba if it's so great?

Will somebody answer that for me?

If it's so prosperous, couldn't they make better rafts?

thanks in advance
Are you dumb?

Obviously it is not that great compared to first world countries.

Don't you see it is retarded to try to compare the two?

A professional in America would get probably much better paid than in Cuba., and there are many professionals in Cuba.

However, the thing is, that if they would live in America, would they have had such educational opportunities?

Maybe not.

[FULL METAL JACKET]

Originally posted by Oh-Dae-[email protected] 18 2006, 09:20 PM
like i said the Cuban people want a change,
Oh Yes, your right! You do speak for 11 million people living in Cuba. :unsure:

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I challenge you to prove your assertions. And no, gusano websites are not proof.

[S G-Bang]

Originally posted by Marmot+Mar 19 2006, 02:26 AM--> (Marmot @ Mar 19 2006, 02:26 AM)
S G-[email protected] 19 2006, 02:20 AM
why would people risk life and limb to escape cuba if it's so great?

Will somebody answer that for me?

If it's so prosperous, couldn't they make better rafts?

thanks in advance
Are you dumb?

Obviously it is not that great compared to first world countries.

Don't you see it is retarded to try to compare the two?

A professional in America would get probably much better paid than in Cuba., and there are many professionals in Cuba.

However, the thing is, that if they would live in America, would they have had such educational opportunities?

Maybe not. [/b]
Am I dumb? Define "dumb" and I'll let you know.

You can go ahead and compare Cuba to other countries, the point of this thread is to let all of the gullible little armchair commies here that Cuba is indeed a hellhole and that communism cannot work.

why you feel the need to compare it to other latin american countires is beyond me. Start your own thread about that if it's that important.

Tell me, why do 11 year old girls become prostitutes in Cuba if it's so great?

Why do thousands risk death to escape?

Answer the questions.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

Oh Yes, your right! You do speak for 11 million people living in Cuba

ohh thats right i always forget your the Cuban here, who lived in Cuba, interacted with the people for years and lived the regime in flesh :rolleyes: anyways to say that i speak for 11 million people is just retarded, like i said there are a handful who really do support the regime (although ill be willing to say that even those inside reject it) for example i was forced to participate in certain events when i was in school over there that were organized by the party. Any outsider would have guess wow all these people are followers of Fidel and the system (think again buddy).

[Oh-Dae-Su]

A professional in America would get probably much better paid than in Cuba., and there are many professionals in Cuba.

are you retarded? because even a retard can infer that just by the sheer number of 280 million compared to 11 million the difference in professionals is incomparable.

[FULL METAL JACKET]

Originally posted by Oh-Dae-[email protected] 18 2006, 09:33 PM

Oh Yes, your right! You do speak for 11 million people living in Cuba

ohh thats right i always forget your the Cuban here, who lived in Cuba, interacted with the people for years and lived the regime in flesh :rolleyes: anyways to say that i speak for 11 million people is just retarded, like i said there are a handful who really do support the regime (although ill be willing to say that even those inside reject it) for example i was forced to participate in certain events when i was in school over there that were organized by the party. Any outsider would have guess wow all these people are followers of Fidel and the system (think again buddy).
Why should I believe anything you say when there is no basis for your argument or really no proof for anything you said in the thread?

Please just tell us what you want. You want Castro gone? Install a capitalist government?

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by S G-Bang+Mar 19 2006, 02:32 AM--> (S G-Bang @ Mar 19 2006, 02:32 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 02:26 AM

S G-[email protected] 19 2006, 02:20 AM
why would people risk life and limb to escape cuba if it's so great?

Will somebody answer that for me?

If it's so prosperous, couldn't they make better rafts?

thanks in advance
Are you dumb?

Obviously it is not that great compared to first world countries.

Don't you see it is retarded to try to compare the two?

A professional in America would get probably much better paid than in Cuba., and there are many professionals in Cuba.

However, the thing is, that if they would live in America, would they have had such educational opportunities?

Maybe not.
Am I dumb? Define "dumb" and I'll let you know.

You can go ahead and compare Cuba to other countries, the point of this thread is to let all of the gullible little armchair commies here that Cuba is indeed a hellhole and that communism cannot work.

why you feel the need to compare it to other latin american countires is beyond me. Start your own thread about that if it's that important.

Tell me, why do 11 year old girls become prostitutes in Cuba if it's so great?


Answer the questions. [/b]
Haha, 11 year old prostitutes? Sure.

Stop reading gusano websites, seriously.

I compare it to other latin american countries because that is the logical thing to do.

Before Castro, Cuba was a shithole, It wasn't a place filled with honey and happy fairies.

It would be extremely stupid to expect Cuba to become first world in some 50 years, especially when no latin american country has been able to pull such a stunt.




Why do thousands risk death to escape?

I don't think they are thousands per year.

I may be wrong though.

Where is the source?


And no, gusando websites are not good sources.

If there wereso many cubans doing that, as I said before, who cares. It doesnt proves anything.

It proves the same thing as the mexicans that risk their life crossing the river in order to reach US.

It proves the same thing as the San Salvadoreans who cross thousands of kilometers to reach US.

It proves that there is an American Dream.

[which doctor]

Originally posted by S G-Bang+Mar 18 2006, 08:48 PM--> (S G-Bang @ Mar 18 2006, 08:48 PM)
Fist of [email protected] 19 2006, 01:36 AM
Do you have any facts from a reputable source do back your accusations up? Probaly not.
do pictures lie?

get on google and do your own research.

find out for yourself, if you have the balls to challenge your own brainwashing. You're not going to believe me anyway. [/b]
I could take a picture of a piece of poop and make a website that says that's what Laura Bush looks like without make-up. Is it a fact? Of course not.

I have done my own research. Just check out the unbiased website of Wikipedia and you will learn the facts.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

Why should I believe anything you say when there is no basis for your argument or really no proof for anything you said in the thread?

Please just tell us what you want. You want Castro gone? Install a capitalist government?

so who do you believe more? communist who live in Europe or America or anywhere else except Cuba who obviously support Castro? instead of the actual Cuban people's sentiment! :lol: :rolleyes:

and the anwser to your question is :

yes, i want Castro gone, but not drastically change the government, because the shithole will continue, i think that Cuba should be modeled after the Chinese system, because unfortunately if you change everything drastically like they did in Russia after the collapse of the USSR there will be years of massive problems. When you have a totalitarian Marxist Leninist government you cant change both the economy and government at the same time. China changed the economy while still maintianing a grip with the government.So although i think that it should be kind of a market socialist economy, i think that it should be kept this way under a centralized government but that it is under supervision of the UN or the USA, and then when everything is stable economically for example like in China the people will start demanding change and then the USA or the UN can decide if it is time for decentralization of the government.

[black magick hustla]

sheer number of 280 million compared to 11 million

What?

Number of what?

[Oh-Dae-Su]

thats the population of the USA and of Cuba respectivly for your information :) , so obviously by the sheer difference of people you can infer that there are obviously more professionals in the USA than in Cuba.

[redrover]

SEX TOURISM AND CHILD PROSTITUTION IN CUBA

Arch Kielly, LtCol, USAF, Retired.

VIRGINIA, August 17, 2002

Communist Cuba is attempting to right its economic problems by permitting the sexual trade of its children for badly needed monetary resources. A generation of young people may have been invested to make Cuba’s tourism more appealing to foreign tourists looking for more than beautiful beaches and soft trade breezes. Fidel Castro maintains his grip on the Cuban people as long as Cuba is able to produce funds to keep his regime afloat. Take away tourism dollars and Castro may self destruct and free a generation of Cuba’s children from sexual exploitation.

Tourism is Cuba's most important moneymaker, generating almost $2 billion last year. In Spain alone, twenty flights leave for Havana every week, carrying to the Caribbean island a yearly total of some 200,000 single male tourists, all in search of cut-price sex. (Tunku Varadarajan, "Time-bomb that Flies in From Havana," The Times, July 10, 1996. Lexis-Nexis document.) Most tourists come from Canada, Spain and Italy. Tourism has recently replaced sugar as the single most important export in the economy. Much of this tourism, however, centers on
travel for sex. Foreign tour companies use code words such as "Cuba Amor" to advertise package tours. At least one Spanish travel company offers a catalogue of
Cuban women who would serve as companions during a tourist’s stay. (Adams, p. 1A). By 1995 the Italian travel magazine Viaggiare recognized Cuba as the "paradise of sexual tourism," awarding it five stars for its "general erotic level." According to the magazine, Cuba beat out such competitors as Brazil and
Thailand. (Adams, p. 1A; Dalia Acosta, Culture Tourism: Cuba Brushes up its Tourist Image, Interpress Service, Sept. 19, 1997. Lexis-Nexis).

Some reports suggest girls will sell sex acts for less than $10 and sometimes for as little as $3. Inexperienced women and girls can be persuaded and/or tricked into spending a whole night with a client for the cost of a meal, a few drinks or small gift. "Habitual sex tourists state that it costs them less to spend two weeks indulging themselves in Cuba than it does in other centers of sex tourism, such as the Philippines and Thailand. (O'Connell Davidson, p.41)

Sex tourism is often a means to satisfy very specific sexual preferences. Many men choose to travel to particular destinations because they know that it is possible to pursue their tastes more cheaply and safely. Pedophiles are an obvious example of this type of sex tourist, but more common are men who have
a preference for experiencing multiple, anonymous sexual encounters with teenagers and women in their early 20s. Sexual access to girls between the ages of 14 and 16 is not difficult to attain, and girls between the ages of 16 and 18 are very accessible. More disturbing still, such tourists are paying older Cuban women and men, often prostitutes themselves, to procure 14 and 15-year old boys and girls for them.

Sex tourists are also frequently drawn to Cuba because of the prospect of exotic encounters that contain a racial component. This is especially the case for those consumers who find it difficult to satisfy racialized fantasies at home. As is the case elsewhere in Latin America, sex tourists view Cuban women as caliente--hot. In addition Davidson reports than many sex tourists are either openly racist and/or fascinated with Black sexuality, which they imagine to be untamed and uninhibited. (O'Connell Davidson, p. 46) Interestingly, the government of Cuba uses racial stereotypes "showcasing 'traditional' Afro-Cuban religious rituals and art, 'traditional' Afro-Cuban music, and of course, Afro-Cuban women (Fusco, p. 67). in conjunction with other images of Cuba as tropical, exotic and full of scantily clad native women. These same stereotypes carry over to the sex tourism industry and feed into the sexual fantasies of the male tourist. As Davidson notes, many more jineteras are Afro-Cuban as opposed to mixed race or white.
(O'Connell Davidson, p. 45. See also Fusco, p. 64)

The explosive growth of sex tourism in Cuba in the 1990s has coincided with the island becoming a major destination for international tourists. The Cuban government began to emphasize foreign tourism as a development tool in the 1980s, in part as a response to a stagnant economy. (Espino, p. 153; 158). Said
one foreign diplomat of the boom in prostitution, "the decline and fall of Cuba’s economy and the turn to attracting foreigners has made it inevitable. The only
way for most of these kids to survive is to sell themselves. (Freed, p 1). The Fourth Party Congress in 1991 declared tourism to be "an important source of
revenue for economic development. (Quoted in Espino, p. 147). The government has, particularly through government agency INTUR and state-run corporations
Cubanacán and Gaviota, built up tourism infrastructure and welcomed foreign investment through joint ventures in hotels. It has also aggressively marketed Cuba as a tourist destination abroad, especially in Europe and Canada. To at least some degree the government has used sexuality to promote tourism.

The government has been aware of the explosion of sex tourism for some time and officially has distinguished prostitution under socialism from that of earlier periods: "this prostitution was different from that prostitution: that prostitution was what women did to buy food for their starving infants; this prostitution reflected a malaise born of boredom and frustration rather than economic desperation. (Gordon, p. 20). Reflecting the official line, Fidel Castro remarked in 1993 that thanks to socialism Cuban girls must make the cleanest and best-educated prostitutes in the world. (Thomas Von Mouillard, Sex Tourism Arrives in Cuba, The Ottawa Citizen, March 13, 1993, p. K5. (Lexis-Nexis); Adams, p. A1) Castro said in 1992 in a speech to the Cuban National Assembly: “There are no women forced to sell themselves to a man, to a foreigner, to a tourist. Those who do so do it on their own, voluntarily, and without any need for it. We can say that they are highly educated hookers and quite healthy, because we in the country with the lowest numbers of AIDS cases… Therefore, there is truly no prostitution healthier that Cuba’s. He also said in 1992 that: “Cuban women become jineteras prostitutes) because they like sex.”

Cuba, which traditionally has had one of the world’s lowest levels of positive HIV cases, has seen an increase there and in other sexually transmitted diseases. (Adams, p. 1A). The number of international tourist arrivals to Cuba has continued to rise. The Cuban economy, while recovering somewhat compared to
the early and mid-1990s, is still struggling and most ordinary Cubans continue to scramble for scarce dollars. With no new large-scale crackdowns having taken place, thousands of sex workers continue to work openly at Varadero, Havana, and other tourist centers on the island. The New Republic, June 2000 claimed,
“The government referred to the women as “promoters of tourism.” Travel Intelligence, AA Gil 2001 reported that “The sex, of course, is what most of the tourist come to Havana for. Have no doubts about this.

They’re not here to show solidarity with 40 years of continuous revolution, or to study architecture, and they certainly aren’t for the food”.

Arch Kielly, LtCol, USAF, Retired. Member of the Cuban-American Military Council (CAMCO). CAMCO is an organization that seeks to bring democracy to Cuba
through peaceful means. CAMCO’s over 1000 members served in the Pre-Castro military, in the Castro’s Armed Forces (FAR), the Brigade 2506, and in the United States Armed Forces. CAMCO's men and women served in all the branches of the military and held ranks from the lowest grades to General officers.

CAMCO's Chairman is Major General Erneido Oliva, DCNG, Retired. See CAMCO’s web page:

http://www.CAMCOCUBA.org

[S G-Bang]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 02:26 AM
Stop reading gusano websites, seriously.

I don't even know what a gusano website is..


I compare it to other latin american countries because that is the logical thing to do.

Logical? how so?


Before Castro, Cuba was a shithole, It wasn't a place filled with honey and happy fairies.

It's a worse shithole now.


It would be extremely stupid to expect Cuba to become first world in some 50 years, especially when no latin american country has been able to pull such a stunt.

Becoming 1st world is not the issue, the issue




I don't think they are thousands per year.

I may be wrong though.

Where is the source?

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/cu.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet_Feet/Dry_Feet_Policy

http://langamp.com/borderblog/?p=1440

note the THIRTY SEVEN THOUSAND in '94:

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g%2Dcp/history/migrant%5Fstats.html


And no, gusando websites are not good sources.

Is it gusado or gusando? First you use the past participle then you use the gerund. Which one is it?


If there wereso many cubans doing that, as I said before, who cares. It doesnt proves anything.

People don't risk death and possible return to Cuba if they are living in a good place. Use common sense, please.


It proves the same thing as the mexicans that risk their life crossing the river in order to reach US.

So what? Mexico sucks too. Who doesn't know that?


It proves the same thing as the San Salvadoreans who cross thousands of kilometers to reach US.

Do you mean El Salvadorian? How many are there? Do they walk through Mexico?


It proves that there is an American Dream.

It proves that Cuba is a hellhole. We're on a communist website, chief. The myth of Cuba as a great place needs to be debunked so these little kiddies learn to appreciate what they have


It may prove many other things but that isn't the point of this thread.

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by Oh-Dae-[email protected] 19 2006, 03:04 AM
thats the population of the USA and of Cuba respectivly for your information :) , so obviously by the sheer difference of people you can infer that there are obviously more professionals in the USA than in Cuba.
:lol:

And when did I say there were more cuban professionals than american professionals?

I only said there were many cuba professionals, not more.

You obviously have reading comprehension problems!

[S G-Bang]

Originally posted by Fist of [email protected] 19 2006, 02:40 AM
[QUOTE=Fist of Blood,Mar 19 2006, 01:36 AM] the unbiased website of Wikipedia
BWAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAA!!!!!! Anybody can edit that crap!!!!!!!!! Castro himself even!

okay, well, you're cancelled on this. :lol:

[S G-Bang]

Originally posted by Marmot+Mar 19 2006, 03:08 AM--> (Marmot @ Mar 19 2006, 03:08 AM)
Oh-Dae-[email protected] 19 2006, 03:04 AM
thats the population of the USA and of Cuba respectivly for your information :) , so obviously by the sheer difference of people you can infer that there are obviously more professionals in the USA than in Cuba.
:lol:

And when did I say there were more cuban professionals than american professionals?

I only said there were many cuba professionals, not more.

You obviously have reading comprehension problems! [/b]
aren't you the person who said professionals could make MORE in Cuba than in the US?

BWEHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Oh my God, I've never read anything so ridiculous!

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Obviously these people aren't serious. They haven't taken the time to do even minor research.

If they had of course they'd know that Cuba was the only country in the Western Hemisphere to eliminate homelessness. Aswell, they'd know was the first and only country in the Western Hemisphere to eliminate illiteracy. They'd also know that it has the lowest human poverty index in all of Latin America, one of the highest percentages of women in government in the world, the highest number of doctors and hospital beds per citizen in the world, one of the lowest infant mortality rates in the world (lower than the US), the lowest unemployment rate in the Western Hemisphere, lowest rate of inflation in the Western Hemisphere, highest sanitation levels (running water and sewage) in Latin America, only country in Latin America with free healthcare and education through college, highest number of skilled workers and scientists as a percentage of the population in Latin America, highest percentage of people with access to electricity in Latin America, highest percentage of home ownership in Latin America, and finally they'd know that Fidel Castro has one of the highest approval ratings in Latin America (according to his enemies!).

[S G-Bang]

Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 19 2006, 03:13 AM
Obviously these people aren't serious. They haven't taken the time to do even minor research.

If they had of course they'd know that Cuba was the only country in the Western Hemisphere to eliminate homelessness. Aswell, they'd know was the first and only country in the Western Hemisphere to eliminate illiteracy. They'd also know that it has the lowest human poverty index in all of Latin America, one of the highest percentages of women in government in the world, the highest number of doctors and hospital beds per citizen in the world, one of the lowest infant mortality rates in the world (lower than the US), the lowest unemployment rate in the Western Hemisphere, lowest rate of inflation in the Western Hemisphere, highest sanitation levels (running water and sewage) in Latin America, only country in Latin America with free healthcare and education through college, highest number of skilled workers and scientists as a percentage of the population in Latin America, highest percentage of people with access to electricity in Latin America, highest percentage of home ownership in Latin America, and finally they'd know that Fidel Castro has one of the highest approval ratings in Latin America (according to his enemies!).

the only homeless in America are people who should be on medication for mental disorders or drug addicts/alcholics.

In Cuba, those people would be locked in prison or even better, killed by castro's thugs.

Again, you believe the propaganda. It's a hellhole and you know it.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Well I lived and worked there and its much better than my country. Secondly, unless the UN is in the business of publishing "Cuban propaganda" everything I just posted was a fact. But why would you want to refute facts when you could go on posting mindless banalities right?

By the way, there are over 3 million homeless people in America -- should they all be on medication for mental disorders or are they all alcholics? Even if that were the case, why don't they have the medication they need or help for alcoholism? How is it that Cuba can insure that none of its people are homeless, but the richest country in the world can't?

Also, just so you know, America has a higher percentage of its population in prison than any country in the entire world. Cuba doesn't even come close.

[Vladislav]

Stop fucking saying that Cuba is a hellhole every second post.It's a pain in the ass reading that over and over again.Back it up with valid sources please. Thanks.

[More Fire for the People]

What are you talking about? isn't a microscopic picture of a cell a scientif fact?
Of course it isn't. It is only a fact when it has been scientifically verified and the material situations that created understood.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I'm seeing a lot of bluster and very few (if any!) facts. Valid sources and facts are going to start appearing very soon, or warning points will appear in their place.

You say Cuba is hell on earth? prove it. I have little patience for right-wing idealogues.

[which doctor]

Facts on Cuba from Wikipedia

Literacy

Definition: age 15 and over can read and write
Total population: 97%
Male: 97.2%
Female: 96.9% (2003 est.)

Life expectancy at birth

Total population: 77.23 years
Male: 74.94 years
Female: 79.65 years (2005 est.)

Growth recovered again in 1999 with a 6.2% increase in GDP

growth in GDP of 11.8 % in 2005 alone

More recently Cuba's world-class biotechnology and pharmaceutical industry is gaining in its importance to the economy.

Unemployment rate: 1,9% (official figure, 2005)

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Facts on Cuba (http://www.cubatruth.info)

[Hiero]

Originally posted by S G-[email protected] 19 2006, 02:06 PM
The myth of Cuba as a great place needs to be debunked so these little kiddies learn to appreciate what they have

Maybe the people who leave Cuba should appreciate what they have? Going off you logic.

[FULL METAL JACKET]

Becoming 1st world is not the issue, the issue
Then what's the issue? Finish your sentence. The last thing anyone should want to see in Cuba is a capitalist government. Look at all the central and Latin American governments are they doing ok? Would you rather be a citizen of Dominican Republic and see how the rich control that country and how there are actual drug dealers in congress?!?!? My family over there can't even eat without our help. Or would you rather be in Cuba have food guaranteed have a excellent free education free and have excellent medical coverage free?
But like you say Cuba is a "hellhole." There are ghettos right near me in New Jersey that are ten times worse than anything you can show me from Cuba.


I don't even know what a gusano website is..
Ex-Cuban right-wing exiles who are bent on the destruction of socialism in Cuba. If you think that website therealcuba isn't biased, you are blind.


So what? Mexico sucks too. Who doesn't know that?
Mexico sucks? What??? Do you want Cuba to turn to a Mexico? Is that your thought of a "liberated" Cuba? Because you obviously want it to become a capitalist society.


Do you mean El Salvadorian? How many are there? Do they walk through Mexico?
Yes you fool they do. Their has been reports of people from Brazil, Honduras, and many other countries coming in through the border.

[redrover]

"By the way, there are over 3 million homeless people in America -- should they all be on medication for mental disorders or are they all alcholics? Even if that were the case, why don't they have the medication they need or help for alcoholism?"

UM... Because the commie-liberals like you made society shut down the mental hospitals because it wasn't "fair" not to let the bums defecate all over themselves in the streets.

"How is it that Cuba can insure that none of its people are homeless, but the richest country in the world can't?"

Why are they whoring off their little girls and boys so they can eat?

"Also, just so you know, America has a higher percentage of its population in prison than any country in the entire world. Cuba doesn't even come close."

Yea, dissidents are just summarily executed. I guess that is more efficient.

[FULL METAL JACKET]

UM... Because the commie-liberals like you made society shut down the mental hospitals because it wasn't "fair" not to let the bums defecate all over themselves in the streets.
:lol: Does that even deserve a response?


Why are they whoring off their little girls and boys so they can eat?
Yes, keep believing the Cuban government is pimping kids. Cuba has clamped down prostitution making it illegal for anyone to accompany tourists in a hotel room and made strip clubs illegal so women won't be exploited. I guess you object to that don't you?

Isn't it America that is encouraging prositution and the exploitation of women? Wise up kiddo. Look around where you live. Strip clubs, porn video stores, prostitutes in every major city and town?


Yea, dissidents are just summarily executed. I guess that is more efficient.
:lol: You fool. Yes am sure Cuba has one million prisoners waiting in line for executions. The U.S has the highest prison count in the world, over one million. So like you say:

wise up

[Vladislav]

Use proper quoting redrover. I'm having trouble understanding what you say...

[S G-Bang]

Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 19 2006, 03:22 AM
Well I lived and worked there and its much better than my country. Secondly, unless the UN is in the business of publishing "Cuban propaganda" everything I just posted was a fact. But why would you want to refute facts when you could go on posting mindless banalities right?

By the way, there are over 3 million homeless people in America -- should they all be on medication for mental disorders or are they all alcholics? Even if that were the case, why don't they have the medication they need or help for alcoholism? How is it that Cuba can insure that none of its people are homeless, but the richest country in the world can't?

Also, just so you know, America has a higher percentage of its population in prison than any country in the entire world. Cuba doesn't even come close.
They have the meds if they want them. Problem is, they don't take them and they'd rather roam the streets.

Wise up, nobody is starving in America. Nobody.

[S G-Bang]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 03:32 AM
Stop fucking saying that Cuba is a hellhole every second post.It's a pain in the ass reading that over and over again.Back it up with valid sources please. Thanks.
it's a hellhole

www.therealcuba.com

learn something

[S G-Bang]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 03:41 AM
I'm seeing a lot of bluster and very few (if any!) facts. Valid sources and facts are going to start appearing very soon, or warning points will appear in their place.

You say Cuba is hell on earth? prove it. I have little patience for right-wing idealogues.
www.therealcuba.com

I already posted links to all of the stats on boat refugees who risk life and limmb and return to Castro's murdering dictatorship.

pay attention, toots.

[redrover]

You found 3 sentences, with a one sentence response to each confusing?

No wonder you're a Commie.

[ComradeTom]

If Cuba is not hellhole, why are people floating over 80 miles of water full of sharks, stormy dangerous waters, currents that can blow them into the Gulf of Mexico, ON NOTHING BUT LOGS to get to the U.S. Of A?
Why did Fidel discriminate gay people? Have you even been to Cuba? Do you know whats going on there?

Screw Fidel, hopefully after Fidel is overthrowned America was send 200,000 troops there and put up a wonderful puppet goverment that would bring freedom back to that area of the world.

[FULL METAL JACKET]

Originally posted by S G-Bang+Mar 18 2006, 11:45 PM--> (S G-Bang @ Mar 18 2006, 11:45 PM)
[email protected] 19 2006, 03:41 AM
I'm seeing a lot of bluster and very few (if any!) facts. Valid sources and facts are going to start appearing very soon, or warning points will appear in their place.

You say Cuba is hell on earth? prove it. I have little patience for right-wing idealogues.
www.therealcuba.com

I already posted links to all of the stats on boat refugees who risk life and limmb and return to Castro's murdering dictatorship.

pay attention, toots. [/b]
A gusano website=Biased. Now fuck off.

[which doctor]

Originally posted by S G-[email protected] 18 2006, 11:42 PM
Wise up, nobody is starving in America. Nobody.
Really, that what are the purpose of food banks? Or are we just giving food to people who don't need it. You have to be one of the dumbest people I know, seriously. I suggest you get a real life and stop trying to win a losing argument.


it's a hellhole

www.therealcuba.com

learn something

Have you ever been to Cuba? I don't think you have. Most of those pictures are complete bullshit anyways. I could start a website and take pictures of poverty in America and start spewing shit about how everyone in America is dirt poor and lives in their own feces. Get a more reliable source.

[S G-Bang]

Originally posted by FULL METAL [email protected] 19 2006, 04:28 AM

Becoming 1st world is not the issue, the issue
Then what's the issue? Finish your sentence. The last thing anyone should want to see in Cuba is a capitalist government. Look at all the central and Latin American governments are they doing ok? Would you rather be a citizen of Dominican Republic and see how the rich control that country and how there are actual drug dealers in congress?!?!? My family over there can't even eat without our help. Or would you rather be in Cuba have food guaranteed have a excellent free education free and have excellent medical coverage free?
But like you say Cuba is a "hellhole." There are ghettos right near me in New Jersey that are ten times worse than anything you can show me from Cuba.


I don't even know what a gusano website is..
Ex-Cuban right-wing exiles who are bent on the destruction of socialism in Cuba. If you think that website therealcuba isn't biased, you are blind.


So what? Mexico sucks too. Who doesn't know that?
Mexico sucks? What??? Do you want Cuba to turn to a Mexico? Is that your thought of a "liberated" Cuba? Because you obviously want it to become a capitalist society.


Do you mean El Salvadorian? How many are there? Do they walk through Mexico?
Yes you fool they do. Their has been reports of people from Brazil, Honduras, and many other countries coming in through the border.
At least you were able to come here to have the chance to help your family

so you're a capitalist pig eh?

You don't think there are other people who need to eat more? What kind of a commie are you?

Cubans have to risk death to even have a chance to be able what you're doing.

as far as the Jersey ghettos....no way they are worse than Cuba.

also, at least those people have an opportunity to get their shit together and make a decent living. the cubans are completely fukked with no chance to do anything except lead their miserable lives as Castro sees fit.

[FULL METAL JACKET]

If Cuba is not hellhole, why are people floating over 80 miles of water full of sharks, stormy dangerous waters, currents that can blow them into the Gulf of Mexico, ON NOTHING BUT LOGS to get to the U.S. Of A?
:lol: Aren't capitalist countries doing the same? Citizens of Honduras, Mexico, Brazil, Colombia, Most of Central and Latin America all go through the Mexican border. Hmmmm, am sure that's a piece of cake to go through. Not only do you have to pay someone to smuggle you who just might rob you, you might get shot by minute men, you can get robbed or killed in any Mexican town on the way to the U.S. So yeah am sure it's just Cubans taking the risk to get here. :unsure:

[S G-Bang]

Originally posted by Fist of Blood+Mar 19 2006, 04:49 AM--> (Fist of Blood @ Mar 19 2006, 04:49 AM)
S G-[email protected] 18 2006, 11:42 PM
Wise up, nobody is starving in America. Nobody.
Really, that what are the purpose of food banks? Or are we just giving food to people who don't need it. You have to be one of the dumbest people I know, seriously. I suggest you get a real life and stop trying to win a losing argument.


it's a hellhole

www.therealcuba.com

learn something

Have you ever been to Cuba? I don't think you have. Most of those pictures are complete bullshit anyways. I could start a website and take pictures of poverty in America and start spewing shit about how everyone in America is dirt poor and lives in their own feces. Get a more reliable source. [/b]
there's plenty of RELATIVE poverty in America.

tell me, you think the poorest american would trade places with, say, the poorest malaysian?

not a chance in hell.

as far as food banks...thanks for proving my point. When the drug addicted freaks want to eat, they get food via charity. talk about stupid. look in the mirror, mensa

if there were no food banks, the government would simply dole out more cash.

in cuba, you starve.

and just because you don't approve of the link doesn't mean it isn't legit.

truth is, you're getting your ass handed to you in this thread and you're spinning the facts like a good little useful idiot.

Tell me, why do you support a hellhole like cuba?

[S G-Bang]

Originally posted by FULL METAL [email protected] 19 2006, 04:51 AM
If Cuba is not hellhole, why are people floating over 80 miles of water full of sharks, stormy dangerous waters, currents that can blow them into the Gulf of Mexico, ON NOTHING BUT LOGS to get to the U.S. Of A?
:lol: Aren't capitalist countries doing the same? Citizens of Honduras, Mexico, Brazil, Colombia, Most of Central and Latin America all go through the Mexican border. Hmmmm, am sure that's a piece of cake to go through. Not only do you have to pay someone to smuggle you who just might rob you, you might get shot by minute men, you can get robbed or killed in any Mexican town on the way to the U.S. So yeah am sure it's just Cubans taking the risk to get here. :unsure:
do they get thrown in prison when returned to their countries?

it takes no courage to come here from those countries

only living in a complete hellhole would inspire people to brave the 90 miles between cuba and the US.

[FULL METAL JACKET]

as far as the Jersey ghettos....no way they are worse than Cuba.
You haven't been out much. What state do you live in?


You don't think there are other people who need to eat more? What kind of a commie are you?
Make sense please. Or just stick to "Cuba is a hellhole" you were better off saying that.


also, at least those people have an opportunity to get their shit together and make a decent living.
Proves you know nothing about capitalist countries or politics. Like the people in Dominican Republic are better off <_< You have to be out of your mind. Trust me I lived there

[FULL METAL JACKET]

do they get thrown in prison when returned to their countries?
Does Cuba throw people who attempted to leave in prison? No. Look at that family that just left a few weeks ago and returned back because they didn&#39;t step "foot" on land. They weren&#39;t thrown in jail when they return so wise up.


it takes no courage to come here from those countries
Sure it doesn&#39;t. A Honduran doesn&#39;t have to worry about getting killed, robbed, beaten by gangs, shot by minute men. They have no courage&#33; Wake up and smell the coffee.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

UM... Because the commie-liberals like you made society shut down the mental hospitals because it wasn&#39;t "fair" not to let the bums defecate all over themselves in the streets.

First, it&#39;s usually a good idea to understand terms before you use them. Bourgeois liberals and communists have nothing in common.

Second, what you said makes no sense. Can you show me evidence of a mental hospital being shut down because a "commie like me" made society do it?


Why are they whoring off their little girls and boys so they can eat?

That&#39;s an ad hom response. You answered my question with an off topic question. Learn how to debate.

Secondly, do you have have any proof of child prostitution in Cuba? Do you know how much prostitution there is in the US?

Thirdly, Cubans eat better than anyone else in Latin America, and no one starves to death ever.


Yea, dissidents are just summarily executed. I guess that is more efficient.

Any proof? Can you back that up at all?

The US executes more prisoners than Cuba by far as well. So you lose on that count too.

Being a "dissident" isn&#39;t illegal in Cuba. Perhaps you&#39;ve heard of the "Ladies in White" who protest in Cuba all the time?


The Ladies in White was recognized for its weekly peaceful protests against the Cuban government&#39;s detention of their husbands and sons. The protests are held each Sunday after church in Havana.
http://www.voanews.com/uspolicy/archive/20...FTOKEN=41220881 (http://www.voanews.com/uspolicy/archive/2005-11/2005-11-03-voa1.cfm?CFID=36735829&CFTOKEN=41220881)

That comes from the US government itself.

They&#39;re actually relatives of Cubans who were jailed after it was found out that they were being paid by the US government to overthrow the Cuban government.

Indeed, the only "dissidents" jailed in Cuba are people who receive funding from the US to overthrow the Cuban government.

If Cuba pays an America to overthrow the American government and the American government finds out about it, what will they do?

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

in cuba, you starve.

Proof? Any at all that anyone has starved to death in Cuba??

Get the fuck out of here, you&#39;re not even being serious.

[Vladislav]

You found 3 sentences, with a one sentence response to each confusing?

No wonder you&#39;re a Commie.

redrover you started a thread called "Why do opposers have to type over Che&#39;s face?"
redrover (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=47555&st=0&#entry1292037130)
In which you criticized Che. You also used homophobic language.

No wonder you&#39;re a fuckwit.
Go fuck yourself and refrain from talking to me and posting on this forum.
Thank You.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Q: Why do so many people leave Cuba and go to the United States?
A: Actually, by percentage, few Cubans actually leave Cuba, and there are many issues involved. Firstly, before the Cuban Revolution the United States gave very few Cubans visas to come to the United States, but after the revolution the doors were opened wide. Secondly, the United States has held an unjust trade embargo against Cuba for 40 years (which has been condemed several times in the United Nations by almost every country in the world) which has caused the people of Cuba to suffer. Finally, the United States enacted the &#39;Cuban Adjustment Act&#39;, the only act of its kind anywhere in the world, which grants residency to anyone, no matter if they are a criminal or not, who leaves Cuba and reaches the United States in any fashion. Imagine if the same act applied to all of Latin America&#33; How many people from other countries would leave for the United States? How many people leave places like Mexico and the Dominican Republic now?
http://www.freepeoplesmovement.org/ry/faq.html#d

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

On jailing:


More than 5.6 million Americans are in prison or have served time there, according to a new report by the Justice Department released Sunday. That&#39;s 1 in 37 adults living in the United States, the highest incarceration level in the world.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0818/p02s01-usju.html

That means about 2.7% of the population of the US in jail; and according to the same article


By 2010, the number of American residents in prison or with prison experience is expected to jump to 7.7 million, or 3.4 percent of all adults, according to the new report.

Even anti-Castro exiles in Miami admit that the percentage of the population in Cuba is no where near that of the US:


It is worth pointing out that the prison population in Cuba varies from between 60 and 70 thousand citizens - 0.7 to 1 percent of the Cuban population - according to data compiled by the Cuban Commission on Human Rights and National Reconciliation.
http://www.netforcuba.org/News-EN/2002/Dec/News95.htm

[S G-Bang]

Originally posted by FULL METAL JACKET+Mar 19 2006, 04:47 AM--> (FULL METAL JACKET @ Mar 19 2006, 04:47 AM)
Originally posted by S G&#045;[email protected] 18 2006, 11:45 PM

[email protected] 19 2006, 03:41 AM
I&#39;m seeing a lot of bluster and very few (if any&#33;) facts. Valid sources and facts are going to start appearing very soon, or warning points will appear in their place.

You say Cuba is hell on earth? prove it. I have little patience for right-wing idealogues.
www.therealcuba.com

I already posted links to all of the stats on boat refugees who risk life and limmb and return to Castro&#39;s murdering dictatorship.

pay attention, toots.
A gusano website=Biased. Now fuck off. [/b]
:lol:

resorting to schoolyard insults so soon?

I accept your surrender.

[S G-Bang]

Originally posted by FULL METAL [email protected] 19 2006, 04:56 AM

as far as the Jersey ghettos....no way they are worse than Cuba.
You haven&#39;t been out much. What state do you live in?


You don&#39;t think there are other people who need to eat more? What kind of a commie are you?
Make sense please. Or just stick to "Cuba is a hellhole" you were better off saying that.


also, at least those people have an opportunity to get their shit together and make a decent living.
Proves you know nothing about capitalist countries or politics. Like the people in Dominican Republic are better off <_< You have to be out of your mind. Trust me I lived there
Dominicans are worse off than starving africans?

please.

now be a good little commie and start spreading your wealth into africa where it&#39;s really needed.

[S G-Bang]

Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 19 2006, 05:05 AM

in cuba, you starve.

Proof? Any at all that anyone has starved to death in Cuba??

Get the fuck out of here, you&#39;re not even being serious.
communism is a mental disorder worse than liberalism

people in cuba are living in hell and you know it. your propaganda BS only works on moronic teenagers.

go peddle your bullshit where people are dumb enough to buy it

[S G-Bang]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 05:06 AM

You found 3 sentences, with a one sentence response to each confusing?

No wonder you&#39;re a Commie.

redrover you started a thread called "Why do opposers have to type over Che&#39;s face?"
redrover (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=47555&st=0&#entry1292037130)
In which you criticized Che. You also used homophobic language.

No wonder you&#39;re a fuckwit.
Go fuck yourself and refrain from talking to me and posting on this forum.
Thank You.
isn&#39;t this grounds for banning?

telling somebody to go fuck themself is acceptable here?

what kind of hellhole is this?

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Listen, if you keep trolling and refuse to respond to any of the facts that have been presented to you, you&#39;ll be banned. Plain and simple.

[S G-Bang]

Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 19 2006, 06:13 AM
Listen, if you keep trolling and refuse to respond to any of the facts that have been presented to you, you&#39;ll be banned. Plain and simple.
I&#39;ve answered plenty

check out my new thread about che as the new face of the fascist neo-Nazi movement.

I guess they&#39;re impressed with his violent nature and fascist leanings.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Originally posted by S G&#045;[email protected] 19 2006, 04:42 AM
They have the meds if they want them. Problem is, they don&#39;t take them and they&#39;d rather roam the streets.


Yeah that makes sense :rolleyes:

If even it were true though, it still doesn&#39;t answer the question: why are there no homeless people in Cuba? Is it that there are no Cubans with "mental disorders" or just that they all "want to take their medicine." :lol:


Wise up, nobody is starving in America. Nobody.

"[In America] in any one year ... 2,900,000 children are reportedly subjected to serious neglect or abuse, including physical torture and deliberate starvation.

...

4,500,000+ children, or more than half of the 9,000,000 children on welfare, suffer from malnutrition. Many of these suffer brain damage caused by prenatal and infant malnourishment.

...

12,000,000 of those at poverty&#39;s rock bottom suffer from chronic hunger and malnutrition. The majority of the people living at or below the poverty level experience hunger during some portion of the year." - Link (http://www.michaelparenti.org/HiddenHolocaust.html)

Oh also.. from the same article..

"280,000 are institutionalized for mental illness or mental retardation. Many of these are forced into taking heavy doses of mind control drugs."

Now what were you saying?

[S G-Bang]

That&#39;s not a reliable source and you know it.

Or, you&#39;re just a complete moron.

which is it?

[redrover]

Have you ever been to Cuba? I don&#39;t think you have. Most of those pictures are complete bullshit anyways. I could start a website and take pictures of poverty in America and start spewing shit about how everyone in America is dirt poor and lives in their own feces. Get a more reliable source.

Show us your pictures that aren&#39;t bullshit.

See, the thing you morons do not seem to be able to grasp about the lunacy of your position is that every society, no matter what form of government will have those living in luxury and those living in squalor.... the problem is that you ignoramuses try to act like the Communist hellholes are some sort of utopia superior to the United States. You are in denial.

Grow up.

[redrover]

Citizens of Honduras, Mexico, Brazil, Colombia, Most of Central and Latin America all go through the Mexican border. Hmmmm, am sure that&#39;s a piece of cake to go through. Not only do you have to pay someone to smuggle you who just might rob you, you might get shot by minute men, you can get robbed or killed in any Mexican town on the way to the U.S. So yeah am sure it&#39;s just Cubans taking the risk to get here. :unsure:

Why aren&#39;t they seeking refuge in Cuba if it&#39;s so ***** and coming here instead?

Just answer directly without all the malarkey.

[S G-Bang]

redrover makes a great point.

WHY AREN&#39;T ALL THOSE HISPANICS GOING TO CUBA INSTEAD?????

ANYBODY WITH THE SACK TO ANSWER? I&#39;m thinking no.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

to redrover, no man YOUR BRAINWASHED BY CAPITALIST PROPAGANDA&#33;&#33;

hahaha i bet thats ^^ what one of them is going to come with.

anyways, one of the things that i notice as i read through these posts, is the idiots who keep comparing Cuba with other Latin American countries. First of all the cuban people are ethnically different than most other Latin American countries. Cubans are not indiginous people, we don&#39;t have mestizos, we are composed of a majority called mulatos (mixed white spanish with black), white spanish descent, and blacks. So right there we don&#39;t associate with most of Central and South America which has about 80% mesitizo population. Therefore we are culturally different even though we share a same language and religion etc. our customs are different. This is appart from the fact that Cuba is an isolated island instead of all of Central and South America in which the countries associate one another. So you guys keep saying how Cuba is the best country in Latin America, but the fact is that this has been so even before the revolution. The only thing the revolution has done is change the literacy rate. Apart from that, Cuba has always been amongst the best in all of Latin America with everything along with maybe Argentina, Uruguay and maybe Mexico. Cubans are not starving, but that doesnt mean they are not poor. The revolution has been a piece of shit and you have to accept the facts. Before the revolution maybe there was an inequality and disproportion of wealth, but at least there were some % of the population that were rich. Now, everyone is poor, and the only one who are "rich" is the small circle around the fascist king of it all , Fidel himself. This small oligarchy around Fidel lick his balls day in and day out so that they along with their families enjoy being part of the circle around Fidel. Those are the facts of Cuba, i can tell you because im a Cuban, born there , lived there, and all you bunch of retards who have never been there, saying "OHH PROVE IT", what else do you want? for me to take you there with me?WTF? :rolleyes:

[S G-Bang]

why aren&#39;t MEXICANS, GUATEMALANS, SALVADORANS, HONDURANS POURING INTO CUBA TO LIVE THE KKKUBA TO LIVE THE KKKUBAN DREAM?????

[Oh-Dae-Su]

Well i dont think anybody in their right mind would want to go to Cuba buddy, but anyway, unfortunately those countries you mentioned of Central America are pure shit, and the leftists here blame it on capitalism, but this only shows their close minded thinking, and that their only resource is blaming capitalism. The fact is that these countries are like this because for capitalism to work correctly you can&#39;t just impose it in a 3rd world country. The fact is that most of these countries have very very corrupt governmnets with little if none well crafted infrastructure, and what ends up happening is the obvious that the ones in control keep enjoying the riches. So in essance these countries are just like Cuba, but since they are not "communist" they dont have what it&#39;s called the "safety net", which can be compared to the social contract of communist countries. So since there is no safety net, a % of the population ends up being even poorer, while in Cuba where the safety net exists the people are just "poor" not really really really poor like in other Latin American countries. You have to understand that it&#39;s also another idiosyncrasy between us Cubans and the rest of Latin America.

[bezdomni]

You are a moron.

You obviously are unfamiliar with the fact that the US sponsored their own dictatorship in Cuba from the time after the Spanish-American war up until the Cuban Revolution.

The Teller Amendment to the post-war Cuban Constitution established that no law could be passed as Cuban policy without US consent. If that isn&#39;t dictatorship, I don&#39;t know WHAT is&#33;

Also, the worst human rights violations in Cuba occur in Guantanamo Bay, the American prison-camp that the imperialists managed to hold on to even after the revolution.

You don&#39;t know a damn thing about Cuba. I doubt you have even read the constitution or read accounts of elections in Cuba. Of course, it isn&#39;t perfect, but what do you expect in a developing nation with an inhuman embargo set against them for defying the will of the imperialists?

If you really care about ending human suffering, then why don&#39;t you support ending the embargo against Cuba? Why don&#39;t you stand up against sweatship labor throughout the world? Why didn&#39;t you say anything when Bush refused to accept aid from Cuba and Venezuela during hurricane Katrina? Why don&#39;t you want to bring the American soldiers home TODAY and end a pointless war? Why don&#39;t you speak out against torturing (or "freedom tickling") in American prison-camps, such as Guantanamo bay?

Your will to end human suffering is admirable, but the means through which you believe it should be done are backwards, at best.

Imperialism will only cause MORE human suffering and would result in yet another war, and even more misappropriated government funds toward the military. They already get 35% of the federal budget&#33;

Since the Cuban Revolution, literacy has greatly increased, medical standards have greatly increased (lower infant mortality rate, everybody is guaranteed free health care, lower doctor:patient ratio than the United States), education up to the college level is free, wages have been drastically increased and the Cuban people can finally pass laws without the US or Spain being their daddy watching over their shoulder.

KKKUBAN
What the hell is that? Are you attempting to imply that Cuba is run by white-supremacists? Is your brain capable of actual thought, or spewing out the first random shit that comes to your mind? Think before you write something&#33;


WHY AREN&#39;T ALL THOSE HISPANICS GOING TO CUBA INSTEAD
I know a lot of people who have either moved to Cuba or have lived there for several years. People certainly move to Cuba. However, the average impoverished Latin American worker can&#39;t afford airfare to Cuba for their entire family. Hell, most can&#39;t afford riding in the back of an 18-wheeler into the US for their entire family. Going to Cuba is more cost prohibitive than going to America.

[KC]

and the leftists here blame it on capitalism, but this only shows their close minded thinking, and that their only resource is blaming capitalism. The fact is that these countries are like this because for capitalism to work correctly you can&#39;t just impose it in a 3rd world country. The fact is that most of these countries have very very corrupt governmnets with little if none well crafted infrastructure, and what ends up happening is the obvious that the ones in control keep enjoying the riches.

What you fail to realize is that you can&#39;t say that leftists are blaming capitalism and that it&#39;s wrong when you aren&#39;t using their definition of capitalism. How many times do I have to remind you of this before you get it through your thick (numb)skull?


communist countries

There is no such thing as a communist country.

[S G-Bang]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 07:26 AM
You are a moron.

You obviously are unfamiliar with the fact that the US sponsored their own dictatorship in Cuba from the time after the Spanish-American war up until the Cuban Revolution.

The Teller Amendment to the post-war Cuban Constitution established that no law could be passed as Cuban policy without US consent. If that isn&#39;t dictatorship, I don&#39;t know WHAT is&#33;

Also, the worst human rights violations in Cuba occur in Guantanamo Bay, the American prison-camp that the imperialists managed to hold on to even after the revolution.

You don&#39;t know a damn thing about Cuba. I doubt you have even read the constitution or read accounts of elections in Cuba. Of course, it isn&#39;t perfect, but what do you expect in a developing nation with an inhuman embargo set against them for defying the will of the imperialists?

If you really care about ending human suffering, then why don&#39;t you support ending the embargo against Cuba? Why don&#39;t you stand up against sweatship labor throughout the world? Why didn&#39;t you say anything when Bush refused to accept aid from Cuba and Venezuela during hurricane Katrina? Why don&#39;t you want to bring the American soldiers home TODAY and end a pointless war? Why don&#39;t you speak out against torturing (or "freedom tickling") in American prison-camps, such as Guantanamo bay?

Your will to end human suffering is admirable, but the means through which you believe it should be done are backwards, at best.

Imperialism will only cause MORE human suffering and would result in yet another war, and even more misappropriated government funds toward the military. They already get 35% of the federal budget&#33;

Since the Cuban Revolution, literacy has greatly increased, medical standards have greatly increased (lower infant mortality rate, everybody is guaranteed free health care, lower doctor:patient ratio than the United States), education up to the college level is free, wages have been drastically increased and the Cuban people can finally pass laws without the US or Spain being their daddy watching over their shoulder.

KKKUBAN
What the hell is that? Are you attempting to imply that Cuba is run by white-supremacists? Is your brain capable of actual thought, or spewing out the first random shit that comes to your mind? Think before you write something&#33;


WHY AREN&#39;T ALL THOSE HISPANICS GOING TO CUBA INSTEAD
I know a lot of people who have either moved to Cuba or have lived there for several years. People certainly move to Cuba. However, the average impoverished Latin American worker can&#39;t afford airfare to Cuba for their entire family. Hell, most can&#39;t afford riding in the back of an 18-wheeler into the US for their entire family. Going to Cuba is more cost prohibitive than going to America.
save your sophmoric history lesson, moron, I have been professionally studying history for over 17 years.


I&#39;ve studied massive amounts of primary source documents concerning the Spanish American war all the way through Castro&#39;s little bullshit "revolution"

save it.

[bezdomni]

Stupendous.

Now an actual response would be GREAT&#33; Because I&#39;ve been studying history for quite some time...and I&#39;d say that history is kicking your ass right now&#33;

[S G-Bang]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 07:34 AM
Stupendous.

Now an actual response would be GREAT&#33; Because I&#39;ve been studying history for quite some time...and I&#39;d say that history is kicking your ass right now&#33;
do you have a question worth responding to?

[bezdomni]

Well, you could defend yourself.

Of course, that might require thinking, which doesn&#39;t seem like your strong point.

oh right....sorry...Thinkkking.

Everything&#39;s about the klan, right?

[Oh-Dae-Su]

he penis, what does all you said have to do with my argument of contrast between Latin America and Cuba? :blink:

i know the USA pretty much had a puppet government in Cuba, hell Cuba was like the summer vacation desitination for all wealthy Americans. I find it ironic that the US actually wanted Batista out. Sometimes the USA does things that backfire on them tremendously, but those are the facts of politics. The fact is that when the USA goes into your country and liberates it of 400 years of actual "colonization", the payback is a lifetime of being bound to the USA, sorry thats how things work, America doesn&#39;t just act like Mother Theresa and sacrifice their own soldiers for a foreign cause without a revenue. What do you think this is? a science fiction novel, this is the real world my friend, thats how things are. Fidel comes along and defies America and installs his own government while being puppet of another (USSR for your information, ironically whats the fucking difference of before?) , well sorry what your going to get is an embargo, SPECIALLY FOR HAVING NUCLEAR WEAPONS 90 MILES FROM US SHORES&#33; what do you expect the USA to do? remain with their arms closed? this is the biggest superpower in the world, if it can&#39;t take direct action towards you, it will do it in another way whatever means possible, thats how we wint he battle against Fidel, and thats how we turn the people against Fidel.


Also, the worst human rights violations in Cuba occur in Guantanamo Bay, the American prison-camp that the imperialists managed to hold on to even after the revolution.

yeah lets treat the Taliban with a buffet dinner each day , a spa in their cells, and satellite TV. Where you here in this country when 9/11 happened? i can tell you that any normal person on the street if they had a Taliban memeber in front of them would of slit their throat , thats how fucking pissed we were and still (although less) are. But don&#39;t get me wrong, i don&#39;t agree on inhumane treatment of prisioners of war either. ;)


You don&#39;t know a damn thing about Cuba. I doubt you have even read the constitution or read accounts of elections in Cuba. Of course, it isn&#39;t perfect, but what do you expect in a developing nation with an inhuman embargo set against them for defying the will of the imperialists?

elections of what? yeah lets vote for FIDEL&#33;&#33; ohh wait, hes been there 40 years, what are we voting for?40 more? :lol: and who reads the Cuban constitution?wtf? and how is Cuba a developing nation when nothing in it is developing&#33;&#33;&#33;? and the embargo i already talked about :). Anyways Cuba trades with other countries, i doubt the embargo can have any big effects if Cuba actually did things in a different manner, how come tourist destinations have everything from Audi dealers and Mercede&#39;s Taxis, to 5 Star Hotels? the funny thing is that NO CUBANS are allowed into these places, only toursits, gosh can you imagine being neglected by your own country&#33; I CAN&#33; so it pisses me off when all these bastards come here and talk all their bullshit. :angry:



What you fail to realize is that you can&#39;t say that leftists are blaming capitalism and that it&#39;s wrong when you aren&#39;t using their definition of capitalism.
what defenition fo capitalism Lazar? wtf are you talking about? every time we have such discussion you come with the same bullshit about your phylosophical defenitions and shit, get real&#33;



There is no such thing as a communist country.
why? because Cuba is a piece of shit? and you don&#39;t want to admit its a failure? listen Marxistm-Leninism is a school of communism whether you like it or not&#33; end of discussion.

[KC]

what defenition fo capitalism Lazar? wtf are you talking about? every time we have such discussion you come with the same bullshit about your phylosophical defenitions and shit, get real&#33;


Well, considering my "phylosophical definition" is what communists define capitalism to be, you really have to apply it to our analysis if you are going to critique our analysis of history. Capitalism is the socio-economic system where social relations are based on commodities for exchange. This is the "phylosophical definition" that communists use when they analyze history. You can&#39;t separate our definitions from our theory; if you do, then you&#39;re just changing what we say. And then it&#39;s not even critiquing our theory, so your conclusions would be wrong.

ex.
I say: "Capitalism is global."
You say: "No it isn&#39;t."

According to my definition, I am saying "The socio-economic system where social relations are based on commodities for exchange is global."
You say "No it isn&#39;t" because you are interpreting my words to mean "Free market economy is global."

As is painfully clear in this example, you are no longer critiquing my analysis because you applied your own definition to my analysis, which completely changed what I was saying. So you are no longer critiquing my analysis, you are critiquing one that you yourself made up. This is why you need to use our definitions if you are going to critique our analysis.



why? because Cuba is a piece of shit? and you don&#39;t want to admit its a failure? listen Marxistm-Leninism is a school of communism whether you like it or not&#33; end of discussion.


Communism is a classless-stateless society. Even Marxist-Leninists agree with this. Therefore, you are wrong. Deal with it.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

So yeah.. Cuba is different from the rest of Latin America because it&#39;s made up of alot of "Mulattos" huh? I guess you&#39;ve never heard of the Dominican Republic or Honduras.


why aren&#39;t MEXICANS, GUATEMALANS, SALVADORANS, HONDURANS POURING INTO CUBA TO LIVE THE KKKUBA TO LIVE THE KKKUBAN DREAM?????

How do you propose people get there.. swim? Cuba&#39;s 90 miles from Florida, not Panama.

Secondly, people do go to Cuba.. lots of them. Thousands are there right studying in college for free. 3515 graduated in Sept of 05..

"The number of Latin American and Caribbean students from countries in South, Central and North America graduating from the Latin American School of Medicine, together with the young Cubans who graduate here today, amounts to 3,515 new doctors who will be at the service of our peoples and the world."
http://www.zmag.org/content/print_article....88&sectionID=60 (http://www.zmag.org/content/print_article.cfm?itemID=8788&sectionID=60)

I worked and lived there for a while. I would have moved there for good but I couldn&#39;t because I wouldn&#39;t have been able to get residency for my entire family and I without going through a long application process.

Also, Cuba has already had our revolution. We communists fight to launch revolutions in our own countries. We fight for our own liberation were are. It&#39;s not as if we&#39;re all going to move to Cuba, a country which is already struggling to survive under the most intense economic blockade from the largest world power in history.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

well Lazar, in that case, i guess neither the USA nor any other country that is capitalist should be considered as such, according to &#39;OUR" defenition :rolleyes:

because there is no system that has a true true liasezz-faire system.

Heck the USA is a mixed economy.


Communism is a classless-stateless society. Even Marxist-Leninists agree with this. Therefore, you are wrong. Deal with it.

than why do they call themselves communist? :rolleyes: why do you support them? because as far as im concerned you guys are of the same genre (communism) different school thats all, you might have variations of ideology but that doesn&#39;t make them not communist. I know that a true true communist society has never existed, but shit niether has a true capitalist . Yet you all consider the USA as a capitalist country, yet your in total denial that the USSR and Cuba and Korea are communist&#33;&#33; :rolleyes: tell that to Fidel, Stalin, Kruschev, Gorbashev, Brezhnev, Lenin, Kim etc. anyways, if these countries aren&#39;t considered as communist they should be considered as fascist dictatorship because thats the only defenition that is left&#33;&#33;

[Oh-Dae-Su]

So yeah.. Cuba is different from the rest of Latin America because it&#39;s made up of alot of "Mulattos" huh? I guess you&#39;ve never heard of the Dominican Republic or Honduras.

stupid i said from most of the Latin American countries, not all&#33;&#33; and Honduras, i doubt they have many mulatos, the Dominican Republic and Puerto Rico , yes, these are the two countries that are very much like us, because they are both Caribbean, and their demographics ethnically is similar to ours.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Cuba is socialist. "Fidel, Stalin, Kruschev, Gorbashev, Brezhnev, Lenin, Kim etc." have never said their countries were communist, ever.

[KC]

well Lazar, in that case, i guess neither the USA nor any other country that is capitalist should be considered as such, according to &#39;OUR" defenition rolleyes.gif

because there is no system that has a true true liasezz-faire system.

Heck the USA is a mixed economy.

According to your definition, I&#39;d agree with you. Because that&#39;s your analysis. But you can&#39;t apply your definition to my analysis and call it wrong, for reasons obviously stated above.



than why do they call themselves communist?

They don&#39;t. They call themselves socialist. The American media calls them communist.


why do you support them?

I support all anti-imperialist actions.


I know that a true true communist society has never existed, but shit niether has a true capitalist .

According to your definition, a true capitalist society hasn&#39;t. According to mine, we&#39;re living in one.


Yet you all consider the USA as a capitalist country, yet your in total denial that the USSR and Cuba and Korea are communist&#33;&#33;

They&#39;re not communist at all. There is no such thing as a communist state. How hard is this to comprehend?


tell that to Fidel, Stalin, Kruschev, Gorbashev, Brezhnev, Lenin, Kim etc.

They&#39;d agree with me.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

Also, Cuba has already had our revolution. We communists fight to launch revolutions in our own countries. We fight for our own liberation were are.

if you are not implying that cuba had a communist revolution, i frankly don&#39;t know what the hell your implying&#33; :D


Plus that is why in Cuba there exists, parties such as El Partido Comunista, amongst others ;)

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Yeah I never said Cuba didn&#39;t have a socialist revolution.. don&#39;t confuse me with the ultra-left redstarist Lazar.

[KC]

Yeah I never said Cuba didn&#39;t have a socialist revolution.. don&#39;t confuse me with the ultra-left redstarist Lazar.

I never said that either. What the hell? Where did this even come from CdL? I&#39;m hardly a restarist; what&#39;s with the flaming?

[Oh-Dae-Su]

According to your definition, a true capitalist society hasn&#39;t. According to mine, we&#39;re living in one.

thats a very distorted way to view things, and thats where your wrong, im the opposite of you, to a certain degree. I agree that both true capitalism and communism haven&#39;t existed. But instead, what has been attempted is experiments of both communism and capitalism, with variations to both to a certain extent, and of course we know the results, the variations of capitalsim have triumphed against the utopian ideology of the communist variations. The experiments don&#39;t lie, its just like a science project, you have your theory ( communism/capitalsim) you test them out (and the way they have been tested are the only way possible at the time, because in essance both theories are utopian), and then you get your data and prove your theories, Marx failed, sorry to disappoint. End of discussion, i think iv made my point clear, Lazar, its now safe to call US capitalist, and to call Cuba, USSR communist ;)

[KC]

thats a very distorted way to view things, and thats where your wrong, im the opposite of you, to a certain degree.

I don&#39;t even know what this means.


I agree that both true capitalism and communism haven&#39;t existed.

I never said that true capitalism hasn&#39;t existed. I think it has. Therefore you can&#39;t agree with me.


End of discussion, i think iv made my point clear, Lazar, its now safe to call US capitalist, and to call Cuba, USSR communist

Again, you&#39;re wrong. If you want to know why, read my above posts. I&#39;m getting sick of repeating myself.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

I don&#39;t even know what this means.

maybe if your brain could infer information you would be able to figure out what it means. It means :rolleyes: , that unlike you i believe capitalism hasn&#39;t existed and that communism has , and like i said to certain degree im correct, and if you would of kept on reading maybe you would know why


never said that true capitalism hasn&#39;t existed. I think it has. Therefore you can&#39;t agree with me.

buddy, again, infer, infer information&#33;&#33; NOW&#33;&#33; lmao, im agreeing with myself, this is an obvious deduction that can be made if your brain cells were working, it&#39;s called common sense, you have to keep reading if something doesn&#39;t seem clear.

you probably proofread what i said, therefore you can&#39;t come back with debatable awnsers, yes im getting tired tell me about it&#33;

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 08:33 AM

Yeah I never said Cuba didn&#39;t have a socialist revolution.. don&#39;t confuse me with the ultra-left redstarist Lazar.

I never said that either. What the hell? Where did this even come from CdL? I&#39;m hardly a restarist; what&#39;s with the flaming?
Well I was basing it on your previous assertion that "Leninist revolutions" couldn&#39;t lead to socialism, and if I&#39;m not mistaken you actually came out and said Cuba wasn&#39;t socialist a few times.

What actually provoked it in this thread was what I perceived as an argument by you that Cuba wasn&#39;t socialist; but maybe you were just trying to tell this idiot that Cuba (nor any other country in history) is a communist country.

The redstarist label seems fitting to me. Don&#39;t you share his mechanical outlook that every country must go completely through capitalism before it can establish socialism? Following that same mechanical line, don&#39;t you argue that "Leninist revolutions" in any countries but the old capitalist countries can&#39;t lead to anything but a less harsh brand of capitalist development?

This is what I&#39;ve gotten from your posts since you&#39;ve been here.

If I&#39;ve misunderstood anything you&#39;ve said or your positions, I appologize comrade.

[KC]

maybe if your brain could infer information you would be able to figure out what it means. It means rolleyes.gif , that unlike you i believe capitalism hasn&#39;t existed and that communism has , and like i said to certain degree im correct, and if you would of kept on reading maybe you would know why


So basically you&#39;re just saying "You&#39;re wrong and I&#39;m right." That&#39;s not debate. Tell me why I&#39;m wrong. Support your reasons. This is how debate is done.


maybe if your brain could infer information you would be able to figure out what it means.

If you didn&#39;t notice, in the Alien Beings thread where you couldn&#39;t understand what I meant, I stated what I meant in a manner that you could understand. Now, if you aren&#39;t capable of civil debate then I suggest that you shut the fuck up.


Well I was basing it on your previous assertion that "Leninist revolutions" couldn&#39;t lead to socialism, and if I&#39;m not mistaken you actually came out and said Cuba wasn&#39;t socialist a few times.

My views have since changed. That was a while ago.



What actually provoked it in this thread was what I perceived as an argument by you that Cuba wasn&#39;t socialist; but maybe you were just trying to tell this idiot that Cuba (nor any other country in history) is a communist country.

I was telling him that no country is communist.


Don&#39;t you share his mechanical outlook that every country must go completely through capitalism before it can establish socialism?

I used to, yes. However, recently my views have changed.


Following that same mechanical line, don&#39;t you argue that "Leninist revolutions" in any countries but the old capitalist countries can&#39;t lead to anything but a less harsh brand of capitalist development?

I used to, but I don&#39;t any longer.


This is what I&#39;ve gotten from your posts since you&#39;ve been here.

Yes, it is really easy to fall into the redstarist trap (crap) when you haven&#39;t read Lenin or spoken to Marxist-Leninists at length.

[redrover]

Also, the worst human rights violations in Cuba occur in Guantanamo Bay, the American prison-camp that the imperialists managed to hold on to even after the revolution.

This is patently absurd.

[ComradeTom]

I am glad that people from capitalist countries are also pouring over the Mexican-America border. It just shows that they wanna be in the GREATEST capitalist system of the world- America&#33; I will admit, the opportunities in that country are terrible for the lower class, but as long as goods and commodities produced in those countries arrive on America shelves, I support the free market policies there completely.

As for the immigrants: They will come here just as the past America immigrants have. They will have radical beliefs, just as the past immigrants have. They will live in poverty, just as past immigrants have. But EVENTUALLY, they will integrate into the American culture just as the lower class Irish, Italian, German, Scandanavian, African, Greek, and other various peoples did. These immigrants intergrated even before there was significant labor laws that forced companies to help worker&#39;s living conditions by providing health insurance and higher wages. You people fail to realize how immigration works:

They come

They work hard

They get out of the slums


AMERICA IS THE LAND OF SUCCESS. I am glad that they are coming here to become the citizens of the future. There the greatest gift to the labor force of our economy and the greatest gift of the future in being the new entrepreneurs. Capitalism will live forever. People adapt to new social conditions throughout time, there never just enslaved forever in the lower class system.

[bezdomni]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 10:29 AM

Also, the worst human rights violations in Cuba occur in Guantanamo Bay, the American prison-camp that the imperialists managed to hold on to even after the revolution.

This is patently absurd.
You&#39;re patently absurd.

See? Anyone can do it&#33;

[Oh-Dae-Su]

So basically you&#39;re just saying "You&#39;re wrong and I&#39;m right." That&#39;s not debate. Tell me why I&#39;m wrong. Support your reasons. This is how debate is done

this is not a wrong or right thing my friend, you seem to misunderstand or misinterpret what i said. Maybe if you would read slowly what i said you might understand.



If you didn&#39;t notice, in the Alien Beings thread where you couldn&#39;t understand what I meant, I stated what I meant in a manner that you could understand. Now, if you aren&#39;t capable of civil debate then I suggest that you shut the fuck up.

fair enough, my bad, shouldn&#39;t of treated you in such manner

anyways you say capitalism has existed, while communism hasn&#39;t. I say both of them in their pure form haven&#39;t existed. But i argue that, and i say that experimentations of both theories have occurred, examples: USA and other "capitalsit" countries, and USSR, Cuba, Korea etc. these are planned economies my friend.

also you made a statement that really bothered me:


I support all anti-imperialist actions.

so , than i take it you are big fan of Bin Laden, Kim Jong Il, Fidel, White supremacy groups, Al Qaeda networks, Al Zarqawi? :lol: and i guess you also supported the actions against imperialism such as the embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania, the 93 WTC attacks as well as 9/11, the attack on the USS Warship of the coast of Yemen, and the list can go on :rolleyes:

what imperialism man? look at what our "imperialism" has accomplished, Western Europe, South Korea, and Japan, i doubt any of these will complain about US IMPERIALISM&#33; :lol: funny how everybody complains about how "capitalsim" has done terrible things in Africa and Latin America, always mentioning 3rd world countries with corrupt governments, yet nobody mentions Western Europe, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Japan, South Korea, Hong Kong, UAE (best country in Middle East) also Kuwait, etc.

[KC]

anyways you say capitalism has existed, while communism hasn&#39;t. I say both of them in their pure form haven&#39;t existed. But i argue that, and i say that experimentations of both theories have occurred, examples: USA and other "capitalsit" countries, and USSR, Cuba, Korea etc. these are planned economies my friend.


So are you just agreeing to disagree? Or are you saying I&#39;m wrong and you&#39;re right? Saying "well your view is distorted" really doesn&#39;t prove anything. In fact, if you used my definition of capitalism you would come to the exact same conclusion that I have.


so , than i take it you are big fan of Bin Laden, Kim Jong Il, Fidel, White supremacy groups, Al Qaeda networks, Al Zarqawi? laugh.gif and i guess you also supported the actions against imperialism such as the embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania, the 93 WTC attacks as well as 9/11, the attack on the USS Warship of the coast of Yemen, and the list can go on rolleyes.gif

I said I support anti-imperialist actions. That doesn&#39;t in any way mean i support Bin Laden, Kim Jung Il, or any of that crap.



what imperialism man?

Imperialism: The Highest Stage of Capitalism by V.I. Lenin (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/)

I suggest you read it.

[ColinH]

Oh-Dae-Su, I don&#39;t believe that capitalism can be identified according to how much state intervention there is in the economy. When Marxists and other leftists talk about capitalism, we are talking about it as if it was an historical era. It is a necessary stage in the development of countries and the entire world, but we simply see a pattern throughout history that suggests it will be replaced by another system. That is why the most advanced capitalist countries are best suited to become socialist, because they will be the first to pass through this stage.

Now, what that new system will be like is entirely speculative, but we assume based on past events that it will be the proletariat who will gain control, and that they would create a socialist society (the details of this society are the hardest to predict, of course). It&#39;s not utopian at all if you look at the big picture. The technological progress spurred by capitalism would seem pretty utopian if you lived several hundred years ago.

[bezdomni]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 08:27 PM


so , than i take it you are big fan of Bin Laden, Kim Jong Il, Fidel, White supremacy groups, Al Qaeda networks, Al Zarqawi? laugh.gif and i guess you also supported the actions against imperialism such as the embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania, the 93 WTC attacks as well as 9/11, the attack on the USS Warship of the coast of Yemen...

I said I support anti-imperialist actions. That doesn&#39;t in any way mean i support Bin Laden, Kim Jung Il, or any of that crap.


He did list "actions".

[Oh-Dae-Su]

Oh-Dae-Su, I don&#39;t believe that capitalism can be identified according to how much state intervention there is in the economy

ok than , in those terms (because in pure capitalism there is 0 intervention from government) communism is basically a planned economy, like the one that existed in USSR, and the current in Cuba as well as North Korea etc.

Colin H, i understand the steps that need to be taken etc., but there are many idiots who all they do is attack capitalism and free market economies, because they feel as if its the greatest threat to the world or w/e bullcrap , the fact is that the only thing they manage to attack is how poor market economies do in 3rd world countries, but these countries are not industrilized, they are not even developing countries and they have highly corrupt governments, obviously whatever they try its going to take years for change. Funny like i said, how none bash on free market success stories like South Korea , Japan, Australia , Western Europe w/e all the ones i mentioned before.



He did list "actions"

well thank you penis, but don&#39;t waist your time, our poor friend Lazar, never takes the time to finish reading what someone says, so its basically pointless to keep arguing with him.

[ColinH]

Alright, but when we talk about communism, we are talking about an historical era that has not existed yet, and that we hypothesize will be relatively classless and stateless. That is why here we don&#39;t recognize the USSR or North Korea as communist or socialist. Not because they were/are utter failures as planned economies, but because they do not fit the basic requirement of having the proletariat in control.

I see the Swedish market economy as doing very well, much to the envy of other national economies, but I would not call it socialist in any respect.

[KC]

He did list "actions".



well thank you penis, but don&#39;t waist your time, our poor friend Lazar, never takes the time to finish reading what someone says, so its basically pointless to keep arguing with him.



I usually don&#39;t if it&#39;s crap. Anyways, those weren&#39;t anti-imperialist. Those were attacks on civilians. Try again.

[bezdomni]

Originally posted by Oh&#045;Dae&#045;[email protected] 19 2006, 09:57 PM
well thank you penis, but don&#39;t waist your time, our poor friend Lazar, never takes the time to finish reading what someone says, so its basically pointless to keep arguing with him.


No need to thank me, as I wasn&#39;t defending you. I just wanted to see Lazar make a response.

Which he did to a reasonably satisfactory job. Although I wouldn&#39;t consider the USS Cole incident an attack on civillians.

[Dean]

The site is not to be trusted - they misrepresent the situation of democracy in Venezuela. Check wikipedia or rotten.com/library for things closer to the truth.

[FULL METAL JACKET]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 07:04 PM
The site is not to be trusted - they misrepresent the situation of democracy in Venezuela. Check wikipedia or rotten.com/library for things closer to the truth.
Like wikipedia which can be edited by anyone and anyone can slander any individual is closer to the truth.

Rotten library is garbage, you&#39;re going to get your information from a site already busy positng up pictures of dead people? What credibility does that site have? None.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

hey full you asked me question not so long ago:


Please just tell us what you want. You want Castro gone? Install a capitalist government?

and i answered:


yes, i want Castro gone, but not drastically change the government, because the shithole will continue, i think that Cuba should be modeled after the Chinese system, because unfortunately if you change everything drastically like they did in Russia after the collapse of the USSR there will be years of massive problems. When you have a totalitarian Marxist Leninist government you cant change both the economy and government at the same time. China changed the economy while still maintianing a grip with the government.So although i think that it should be kind of a market socialist economy, i think that it should be kept this way under a centralized government but that it is under supervision of the UN or the USA, and then when everything is stable economically for example like in China the people will start demanding change and then the USA or the UN can decide if it is time for decentralization of the government.

well what did you think? because its an interesting question, after Castro is gone what should happen etc.

[red team]

communism is basically a planned economy, like the one that existed in USSR, and the current in Cuba as well as North Korea etc.


Why does Communism need to planned? Many people, including me, can come up with different economic systems in which Communism doesn&#39;t need to be entirely planned, but commodification and profit making isn&#39;t possible. Stop looking at Socialist countries existing in the third world when comparing to a Capitalist empire like the U.S. if you want to make a fair comparison.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Originally posted by FULL METAL [email protected] 20 2006, 12:22 AM
Rotten library is garbage, you&#39;re going to get your information from a site already busy positng up pictures of dead people? What credibility does that site have? None.
Please explain to me how posting pictures of dead people invalidates in anyway one&#39;s ability to objectively analyse? Or are you just comitting one big ad hominem?

[Metalsocialist]

how they hell do we ivade something
oh where the fuck is Cuabn

[FULL METAL JACKET]

Originally posted by NoXion+Mar 20 2006, 08:23 AM--> (NoXion @ Mar 20 2006, 08:23 AM)
FULL METAL [email protected] 20 2006, 12:22 AM
Rotten library is garbage, you&#39;re going to get your information from a site already busy positng up pictures of dead people? What credibility does that site have? None.
Please explain to me how posting pictures of dead people invalidates in anyway one&#39;s ability to objectively analyse? Or are you just comitting one big ad hominem? [/b]
Read Mao&#39;s biography on Rotten and you&#39;ll know exactly what am talking about.

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 08:27 PM


Imperialism: The Highest Stage of Capitalism by V.I. Lenin (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/)

I suggest you read it.
oh dear

lazar you havent even read it&#33; :lol:

[KC]

oh dear

lazar you havent even read it&#33; :lol:

I haven&#39;t read the whole thing. I have read sections of it though, to the point where I have a good idea about what it&#39;s about.

[Propagandabuster]

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y291/WOMANIMAL/CastrosGulag.jpg

During the Batista dictatorship, there were 11 prisons in Cuba. Now, as can be seen on the map below, there are over 300&#33; The entire island is surrounded by prisons&#33;

The questions are: Why so many prisons in a country where everyone is supposed to be equal?

Why so many prisons in a country where the people are in charge?

Why so many prisons in a country that for 46 and a half years has been &#39;educating&#39; the &#39;new man&#39; that is supposed to be like Che?

Why so many prisons in a country where 99.9999% of the people &#39;vote&#39; in favor of the dictator for life?

[FULL METAL JACKET]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 02:02 AM
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y291/WOMANIMAL/CastrosGulag.jpg

During the Batista dictatorship, there were 11 prisons in Cuba. Now, as can be seen on the map below, there are over 300&#33; The entire island is surrounded by prisons&#33;

The questions are: Why so many prisons in a country where everyone is supposed to be equal?

Why so many prisons in a country where the people are in charge?

Why so many prisons in a country that for 46 and a half years has been &#39;educating&#39; the &#39;new man&#39; that is supposed to be like Che?

Why so many prisons in a country where 99.9999% of the people &#39;vote&#39; in favor of the dictator for life?
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f192/clockworkorange192/proliferation1900-2000.gif

Enough said.

[Propagandabuster]

Yea, but the U.S. is capitalistic pigs.

Nobody&#39;s denying we needed more prisons, but why the prison explosion in a far shorter time under your communist utopia?

How come your hero does the same thing as the capitalist pigs if communism is so much better?



Mon, Sep. 22, 2003

Cuba&#39;s many prisons may hold 100,000

If accurate, the figure would give the country the highest number of inmates per capita, even ahead of the United States. An estimated 300 are political prisoners.
BY NANCY SAN MARTIN
[email protected]

Cuba&#39;s jailing of 75 dissidents six months ago has focused fresh attention on one of the largest per-capita prison systems in the world, with an estimated 100,000 or so inmates in about 200 prisons and labor camps spread around an island slightly smaller than Pennsylvania.

Letters smuggled out by a handful of the imprisoned dissidents describe tight, filthy quarters infested with rodents and bugs; food too disgusting to eat; limited access to medical care; and physical and mental abuse.

But the estimated 300 political prisoners in Cuba make up only a fraction of what may be the world&#39;s most extensive per-capita prison gulag -- even larger than the U.S. penitentiary system.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

there is 280 million inhabitants, plus are you meaning to tell me that the prisioners here are "political" prisioners like in cuba? :lol: ohh please c&#39;mon, those jails in Cuba are for political oppositors and dissidents, and of course for criminals as well dont misunderstand me. Also here in America there is lots of violence, but i would say just as much as in Cuba, i can tell you because iv lived in both countries. Also there is guns here, also did i mention there were almost 300 million people? yeah i think so. Plus here you can get convicted of numerous countless things, tax ivation, money laundering, drug trafficking, misdemeanors, whatever i don&#39;t know things that in Cuba don&#39;t exist.

[kingbee]

Also, where is that source from?

It&#39;s all very well that it looks "official", but it might not be.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 07:02 AM
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y291/WOMANIMAL/CastrosGulag.jpg

During the Batista dictatorship, there were 11 prisons in Cuba. Now, as can be seen on the map below, there are over 300&#33; The entire island is surrounded by prisons&#33;

The questions are: Why so many prisons in a country where everyone is supposed to be equal?

Why so many prisons in a country where the people are in charge?

Why so many prisons in a country that for 46 and a half years has been &#39;educating&#39; the &#39;new man&#39; that is supposed to be like Che?

Why so many prisons in a country where 99.9999% of the people &#39;vote&#39; in favor of the dictator for life?
Anybody could have made that fucking map. Look:

http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/2968/proliferation190020000dv.png

See how easy it is? Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics&#33;

[AnnieAngel]

There&#39;s a movie called Reina y Rey, or vice versa I forget which is filmed in Cuba and IMO gives a pretty realistic view of life there.

It&#39;s a real good movie, I don&#39;t know if it&#39;s rentable where you all individually are, but if you can find it, watch it.

It&#39;s also got Pablo Milanes singing "Yolanda" when he was young for it&#39;s theme song.

I really want to go to Cuba before Castro dies.

[bezdomni]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2006, 04:28 PM

Anybody could have made that fucking map. Look:

http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/2968/proliferation190020000dv.png

See how easy it is? Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics&#33;
Haha.

There are more prisons in Wyoming than people&#33;

[Oh-Dae-Su]

^^ LMAO&#33;&#33; HAHAHAHAHA :lol: look at Idaho, Montana&#33;&#33; hahaha

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by S G&#045;[email protected] 19 2006, 01:06 AM
Castro&#39;s own daughter cannot wait for him to die. She even escaped the hellhole.

The hospitals literally have human excrement on the floor.

Havana, once one of the most gorgeous cities in the world, has been reduced to a filthy ghetto.

OVERTHROW CASTRO NOW and free the Cuabn people&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;
That&#39;s the thing about your type of people.

You want to decide the fates of others, start wars, and impose your politics and values on others. The United States wants to play God in international politics, that is, God in terms of political and economic dominance.

Who the hell are you to order invasions of other sovereign nations? Sounds pretty Hitlerite to me.


And it is for these reasons why the Iraqis are kicking the living hell out of the poor US bastards sent to Iraq to fight to control more energy resources. :ph34r:

Part of the Cuban Missile Crisis Agreement was that we would never invade Cuba, but we break treaties all the time.

However, invasion of Cuba will get China, Venezuela, the DPRK, Bolivia, and Iran either pissed or extremely nervous, resulting in more chaos.

Good to know geopolitics before you make impetuous declarations.
And if the US does invade Cuba, I&#39;ll be the first one shooting at my "countrymen" who feel that they have the right to decide the fate of sovereign nations. And I assure you I would have no regrets&#33;



--PS

This daughter, "Castro&#39;s daughter" is from a previous relationship, so her personal feelings and family squabbles with her father is not really a good measure of how to judge the Cuban President.

As well, I&#39;d like to clear this up.
Cuba is run by the Cuban Government, not FIDEL CASTRO. He&#39;s a government official but he does not exercise exclusive power, in fact George W. Bush has more power and "authoritarian" tendencies with his rubber stamp Congress and appointed judiciary.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

Cuba is run by the Cuban Government, not FIDEL CASTRO. He&#39;s a government official but he does not exercise exclusive power, in fact George W. Bush has more power and "authoritarian" tendencies with his rubber stamp Congress and appointed judiciary.

:lol: quite possibly the funniest thing iv ever read in this website ^^ hahaha good one

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by Oh&#045;Dae&#045;[email protected] 23 2006, 08:13 PM

Cuba is run by the Cuban Government, not FIDEL CASTRO. He&#39;s a government official but he does not exercise exclusive power, in fact George W. Bush has more power and "authoritarian" tendencies with his rubber stamp Congress and appointed judiciary.

:lol: quite possibly the funniest thing iv ever read in this website ^^ hahaha good one
You sir, are a condescending piece of dry scat.
Laughter at certain words instead of attempting to disprove shows a high degree of ignorance.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

how is a president, who controls everything, who is a proven totalitarian dicatator be less of these qualities than president Bush? are you out of your fucking mind?&#33;&#33; yeah your right the Cuban Government runs Cuba, and who is the Cuban Government? ta daaaaaaa F I D E L C A S T R O&#33;&#33; no shit

Fidel doesn&#39;t exercise full power? wtf&#33;&#33; :blink: where have you been for the past 40 years? inside a bunker? tell me how the government of Cuba stops any decisions Fidel makes? please indulge me? because at least here in America there is balance of powers and the president can have laws refused or w/e, he can also be impeached, how can Fidel be impeached? hahaha he is King of Cuba for life. When was the last democratic elections in Cuba? lmao :lol:

I mean you make a ridiculous statement, it&#39;s like saying Stalin was less of a totalitarian than Roosevelt&#33;&#33; :lol:

[KC]

yeah your right the Cuban Government runs Cuba, and who is the Cuban Government? ta daaaaaaa F I D E L C A S T R O&#33;&#33;

This goes to show your complete lack of knowledge of the Cuban political system. I suggest you read about it before you criticize it.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

well indulge me instead of telling me to read about it? hahaha i laugh at this , because you always say the same, i suggest you read this i sugges you read that, etc. What difference does it make if there is a prime minister or whatever else in Cuba, Fidel is still the ultimate ruler, so how is the government structure changing that? please Lazar and everyone else , tell me&#33;&#33; please, how can Fidel be stopped by any decisions he makes? yeah thats what i thought.

[KC]

PM CompanerodeLibertad. Ask for some links to info on the Cuban Government. I have some sources but I&#39;m not at home right now so I can&#39;t give you any. He should be able to give you more than enough info on the subject.

[bezdomni]

Do a search for the Cuban Constitution.

[CubaSocialista]

A dictatorship is defined as a government in which one person holds absolute power.

Simply stated, Cuba is not ruled at the whim of one man, the Cuban people are too intelligent, defiant, and educated to allow such a thing. The Cuban government is a reflection of Cuban values: liberty, social justice, equality.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

liberty, social justice, equality.

you actually believe these values are present in Cuba? :rolleyes:


well, ill give you an example, when i was in primary school in Cuba, i once protested about why we had to go to rallies which were anti-capitalsit/america/etc., i made it clear even at that age, that i didn&#39;t like the government. Well, when i was home, my mother told me to shut my mouth, because the school principal (who was a friend of my mother&#39;s, thank god, if not i would of fucked my parents up) came and told my mother that i was saying things that were not allowed and that would get my parents in jail. So tell me, how the fuck is there liberty, justice, and equality in Cuba? please, you fucking idiots, you are not Cuban, never have been to Cuba, and all your information comes from pro-Castro/leftists websites, that still talk about how FREE&#33;&#33; CUBA IS&#33;&#33; i mean it&#39;s disgusting, a country which denies it&#39;s own people, i went to Cuba to visit once, and i was a tourist of course, and i could go into the luxurious hotel&#39;s but my own family could not, only because i was resident of another country and i had dollars, it&#39;s disgusting, and whoever supports this is disgusting as well.

[anomaly]

"Yes, free Cuba, and let the imperialists rape the island&#33; "

Seriously, what the fuck are some people on?

[Oh-Dae-Su]

anamoly, disregard that guy, he is an idiot.

[anomaly]

I&#39;m actually talking about you. If we &#39;free Cuba&#39;, imperialists will rape the island. Cuba has resisted American imperialism for some 47 years.

What I&#39;m asking is who the hell wants to let American imperialism in??

[Oh-Dae-Su]

i want Castro gone, but not drastically change the government, because the shithole will continue, i think that Cuba should be modeled after the Chinese system, because unfortunately if you change everything drastically like they did in Russia after the collapse of the USSR there will be years of massive problems. When you have a totalitarian Marxist Leninist government you cant change both the economy and government at the same time. China changed the economy while still maintianing a grip with the government.So although i think that it should be kind of a market socialist economy, i think that it should be kept this way under a centralized government but that it is under supervision of the UN or the USA, and then when everything is stable economically for example like in China the people will start demanding change and then the USA or the UN can decide if it is time for decentralization of the government.

this is what i said in like page 3 or whatever, anyways its what i believe should happen, and fuck off with "American Imperialism", what&#39;s American imperialism? Japan, Korea, Western Europe...shit i would much rather have Cuba turn out like them even if it&#39;s under what you guys call "AMERICAN IMPERIALISM", so what if Cuba is a "puppet" of America, as long as the people have better lives and freedom of speach and natural liberties every human should have..you guys are obviously not Cuban, and i can speak for every Cuban that i know, that we wouldn&#39;t even care if the United States colonizes Cuba. We were part of America for 2 years, it was America who freed us from Spain, and they were the ones who gave us our independance. Maybe Castro did the right thing in nationalizing many of the american investments in our country, but not fucking radicalize our country with a fucking supressive totalitarian regime, thats and evil thing to do.

[anomaly]

I&#39;ve never heard any proletarians in third world nations shouting how &#39;great&#39; the &#39;free trade&#39; agreements have been for them.

And besides, American imperialism is never positive. Just look at Iraq. We went in there to &#39;democratize&#39; things. And we just turned it all to shit&#33;

[Oh-Dae-Su]

I&#39;ve never heard any proletarians in third world nations shouting how &#39;great&#39; the &#39;free trade&#39; agreements have been for them.

do they have a choice? its called a totalitarian regime, better yet, do they have a voice? right.



And besides, American imperialism is never positive. Just look at Iraq. We went in there to &#39;democratize&#39; things. And we just turned it all to shit&#33;

Iraq, thats the best you can do? funny how you didn&#39;t refute South Korea, Japan, and Western Europe :lol:

[cyu]

i think that Cuba should be modeled after the Chinese system, because unfortunately if you change everything drastically like they did in Russia after the collapse of the USSR there will be years of massive problems. When you have a totalitarian Marxist Leninist government you cant change both the economy and government at the same time.

I would change the government first and only change the economy slowly. I&#39;d support democracy, but not capitalism. Why bother exchanging rule by Castro with rule by a CEO? If you really believed in freedom, you&#39;d support both political democracy and corporate democracy.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

you obviously don&#39;t understand the world of politics, this was something tought to me in my comperative politics class. Why do you think China is doing so well? and that it is one of the biggest success stories of the 20th century, as well as one of the most dramatic changes ever taken by nation, bringin millions out of poverty? because they changed their government? ummm not really , it&#39;s because they made economic reforms, while still not reforming the government. You can&#39;t change a 3rd world countrie&#39;s economy as well as government because if not it will happen like it happened to Russia after the brake up of the Soviet Union. Anyway, how can there be democracy and no capitalism? we are talking about the real and present world, im not talking about the futuristic world you envision. Be realistic.

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by Oh&#045;Dae&#045;[email protected] 23 2006, 11:22 PM
please, you fucking idiots, you are not Cuban, never have been to Cuba...
We have a no flaming policy on RevLeft. You will never convince others with insults, please use information for your argument and refrain from labeling. I am issuing you a warning point.

[Dyst]

how can there be democracy and no capitalism?
Well, to ask you a question, how can there be capitalism and democracy? Certainly not economic democracy at the very least.

An example: In my country, most people who are wealthy are so because they are born with wealthy parents. It is the same in for example the US, if your parents are wealthy you will become wealthy too, no matter how much of an idiot you are. Meanwhile, most of the world is suffering from poverty.

And your idea of a democracy seems pretty strange.


Anyway, how can there be democracy and no capitalism? we are talking about the real and present world, im not talking about the futuristic world you envision. Be realistic.

Okay, you want me to be realistic? Right now, at this moment, I must agree with you. Capitalism is the closest thing to democracy right now. But that is only because it is the most evolved political system that exists on Earth today.

Still being realistic, capitalism hinders the social and technological advancement of any society. Examples are that we further develop the means of production, create more commodities, but also rising unemployment rates (machines do previous workers&#39; jobs.) Therefore, people don&#39;t have the capital to buy the commodities, or exist at all. Another example is that technology is making it easier and easier for spreading (previously) commodities, for a low cost or none at all. The only thing that hinders people from freely distributing wares among themselves, is the establishment and its hunger for capital. I could give you many more examples.

So, as we can already today see as a trend, capitalism hinders the natural advancement of the society.

If you want me to be realistic, I am not going to paint you a picture. All I am saying is that there will have to be a change. Like it or not. And not just some silly reform that doesn&#39;t do shit.

[cyu]

Why do you think China is doing so well? and that it is one of the biggest success stories of the 20th century, as well as one of the most dramatic changes ever taken by nation, bringin millions out of poverty?

Are millions really out of poverty? Where are the statistics for it? (That&#39;s not a rhetorical question by the way. It&#39;s an honest request for more information.) From what I know of China today, people from rural areas are now second-class citizens, much like how undocumented immigrants are in the United States. All the manual labor is done by workers from the countryside - everyone wants to go to the cities and work for the rich. The last time I was in Shanghai, my brother and I were approached by a pimp asking if we wanted to see some prostitutes. Doesn&#39;t sound like a dramatic improvement to me.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

Keiza, change will always happen, nothing lasts forever, but whether it is communism or something else, thats really impossible to tell, although i highly doubt it will be communism because how humans are naturally, our emotions etc.

cyu, dude you have been to Shanghai&#33;&#33; fuck man i love that city, i was there in 2004, Najing Road is pretty cool, but i love the Bund, with the Oriental Pearl TV Tower, it&#39;s an amazing city. Anyways, how does a pimp coming to you offering "special service" (thats how they call it :) in the barber shops and stuff) doesn&#39;t sound like dramatic improvement? do you think there were even "pimps" before say 1990? lol You asked me for statistics of the change, but well that would mean that i have to do research online and all that , and possibly if i give you a source some other idiot would say it&#39;s propaganda etc. etc. get what i mean? But i can speak to you from my first hand experiences, because i only spend about 3 days in Shanghai, i don&#39;t know about you, but i traveled the countryside widely, i even went to Inner Mongolia, i only saw a couple of tourists there, and it was in a McDonald&#39;s :lol: so yeah, look i visited a small rural village, in Shandong province, and yes, the people live off the land. But these farmers have color TV&#39;s, DVD players (although i think it was VCD, which is what it&#39;s used mostly in China) they had a 2 stores in the village with Coca Cola&#39;s and all bunch of goodies etc. , i mean how can this not be a drastic change? you think farmers had any of these things before the reforms? When i first went to China i was shocked&#33;&#33; people with laptops&#33; Audi dealers&#33;? i was like WTF&#33;? hahaha i did see some poor people, but this is seen everywhere in the world, and even more of course in China since it&#39;s a developing nation, but sincerely speaking, i never thought people in China were that well off, seriously.

[lebo_revolutionary]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 01:46 AM
:lol:

It is brilliant to try to compare Cuba to first world democracies.

I couldn&#39;t expect more. :o

The american capitalist, with his contempt against socialism will always spit on Cuba and on Venezuela. However he never addresses the shithole that is Latin America. It is a fact that the Cuban population has a better quality of life than most of the other Latin American population.

Why don&#39;t you compare Cuba to Honduras, Belize, Guatemala, and Columbia instead?

All of them follow the excellent american model of capitalism&#33;
american capitilism is disgusting. you, being the self centerd muther fuker u obviously are would not be sitting there supporting it if u were the person who had no where to sleep, nothing to eat or drink. latin america is at the stage which its at now because of capitilism, the exploitation of its natural resources that comes from countries such as the US. Latin america is full of natural resorces that could feed their starving people, the thing stopping them is countries like the USsell convince them into buying overpriced uneccesary goods while at the sametime exporting huge portions of their natural resources. if u capitilists werent such greedy self centerd mutherfukers then this world would be a much better place.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

you, being the self centerd muther fuker u obviously are

313C7 iVi4RX, if this guy doesn&#39;t get a warning like i did, than this is the most bias website iv ever visited.

anyways, lebo, if you actually had dignity , and weren&#39;t so blind to see reality, instead of blaming everything on capitalism and America; you would be blaming all the corrupt fuckers that run every Latin American country like Fidel, Chavez, and that new president of Bolivia that looks like a burned out asian man. Unfortunately, since all of Latin America has 3rd world status, capitalism is not going to have much success, and even less with the corrupt governments that have runned things since the independance years from Spain.

[bezdomni]

Yeah, he should probably be warned.

While I&#39;m here...


...you are not Cuban, never have been to Cuba...
I believe many people on this board have been to Cuba.

We probably even have some Cuban members, but nobody comes to mind immediately. I don&#39;t post very often in the spanish forum.

[KC]

313C7 iVi4RX, if this guy doesn&#39;t get a warning like i did, than this is the most bias website iv ever visited.

Hit the report button and type in "FLAME" in the submit box, and perhaps quote it as well. Also, if you really feel strongly about it, a PM to electmarx wouldn&#39;t hurt.

[anomaly]

Originally posted by Oh&#045;Dae&#045;Su
Iraq, thats the best you can do? funny how you didn&#39;t refute South Korea, Japan, and Western Europe
If you want me to list every single imperialist expedition on which the USA has embarked, that would take a hell of a long time.

[Dyst]

Funny that he seem to agree with my post, but thinks that communism wont happen.

What else could? Maybe it will solve itself, magicly?

[Oh-Dae-Su]

In my country, most people who are wealthy are so because they are born with wealthy parents. It is the same in for example the US, if your parents are wealthy you will become wealthy too, no matter how much of an idiot you are. Meanwhile, most of the world is suffering from poverty.

how do you measure "wealth"? millions of dollars? because im an immigrant, meaning even less opportunities than a person born here even poor, and im middle class living relatively well. I myself earn 2000 dollars a month, and im 19, did my parent&#39;s status influence this at all? :blink: i really don&#39;t understand all this jibba jabba i here all the time.



I believe many people on this board have been to Cuba.

We probably even have some Cuban members, but nobody comes to mind immediately. I don&#39;t post very often in the spanish forum.

hey, even if i went to Somalia and i stayed in a tourist resort where the tourist are valued more than the citizens of the country im still going to think it&#39;s an awsome beautiful place. Going outside, visiting and living with the actual people in real Cuban cities is another thing.


Hit the report button and type in "FLAME" in the submit box, and perhaps quote it as well. Also, if you really feel strongly about it, a PM to electmarx wouldn&#39;t hurt.

nahh, i don&#39;t like playing the, "ohhh teacher he stole my pencil" type of game, the moderators are here for something, if they don&#39;t catch it is obvious hypocracy and like i said being bias, but thanks anyways Lazar i sincerely appreciate it, but like i said i don&#39;t like being a snitch.



If you want me to list every single imperialist expedition on which the USA has embarked, that would take a hell of a long time.

ohh im sure you can take a long time listing our "imperialist adventures", what im even more sure off is how quick it will take you to list the failures ;)


Funny that he seem to agree with my post, but thinks that communism wont happen

i don&#39;t know, i think i awnsered back didn&#39;t i? and im nobody to say communism won&#39;t happen, but just as you all theorize it will, i theorize the opposite.

[вор в законе]

how can there be democracy and no capitalism?

Are you a capitalist therefore you are an idiot or you are an idiot therefore you are a capitalist ? :D

[Oh-Dae-Su]

Are you a capitalist therefore you are an idiot or you are an idiot therefore you are a capitalist

what do you think this is? a riddle contest? :rolleyes:

so what are you trying to say? that capitalists are stupid? :lol:

did you know that for your precious society to occur according to your beloved theories, capitalism is an essential process? and has to happen in order to give way to your utopian beliefs? so why even bother attacking capitalism? its something that has dumbfounded me about communists all the time, it&#39;s as if they have nothing better to do. Although i do understand you, because having to wait for the "revolution" to come, hahaha, man, you might have to wait as long as the Jews have for their "Messiah" :lol:

[Fuzzy_Louster]

did you know that for your precious society to occur according to your beloved theories, capitalism is an essential process? and has to happen in order to give way to your utopian beliefs?

Can you explain any of your reasoning? I mean, you just keep spitting out warrantless questions/statements. I have heard conservative propaganda with a more appropriate scenario and believable base than anything you saying.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

well why don&#39;t you tell me how im wrong? instead of saying how im talking bullshit&#33;isn&#39;t capitalism an essential part of leading to a future communist society? :blink: ohhhk, your a communist and you don&#39;t know that?

[Fuzzy_Louster]

I cant really argue against your points if you dont justify them and explain why capitalism is essential to the communist society. The only possibility for it that I can see your bizarro logic linking to is that capitalism is the preceding step to communism or socialism. But that doesnt make it essential, that makes it something that shall be overcome and that we are trying to liberate people from. Thus the only link to communism it has or the only position it helps fill is purely that of adversary that is being fought against continously till one is ultimately achieved or the other sadly continues. But then your argument only works for capitalist societies and not for those that already have some kind of bastardized false-socialism.

But your mad rant about capitalism being neccessary for communism shouldnt really be the focus. I hate Fidel as much as half of you calling for an invasion. The fact still remains however that war will solve nothing if we continously throw ourselves at conflicts here in the U.S. Fidel will be gone soon enough, but what if someone worse takes over for him? What happens when the Stalinist nightmare of the USSR comes back like Freddy on Elm Street to haunt our ideals? At the point where invasion would just tie down the proletariat in another conflict and just waiting for a new leader to take over could just make it worse, the only solution is that the people of Cuba must rise up and take back the power from the oppression created by Castro and his buddies once his death destabilizes the government enough. The solution doesnt start with a battle of bourgeoisie throwing their respective power around, but for the people to rise up and make the change themselves.

[KC]

nahh, i don&#39;t like playing the, "ohhh teacher he stole my pencil" type of game, the moderators are here for something, if they don&#39;t catch it is obvious hypocracy and like i said being bias, but thanks anyways Lazar i sincerely appreciate it, but like i said i don&#39;t like being a snitch.

Well, you felt enough of a snitch to point it out in the thread. And if a warning point isn&#39;t issued that&#39;s not "obvious hypocracy"; it&#39;s the moderator not seeing it. If you want to have a warning point issued to them, report it. If not, then stop complaining.

[bezdomni]

Originally posted by Oh&#045;Dae&#045;[email protected] 26 2006, 04:54 AM
hey, even if i went to Somalia and i stayed in a tourist resort where the tourist are valued more than the citizens of the country im still going to think it&#39;s an awsome beautiful place. Going outside, visiting and living with the actual people in real Cuban cities is another thing.


I&#39;ve heard that tourists are treated better in Cuba than most citizens.

But most socialists who go there aren&#39;t just tourists. I plan to go there some day so I can see what Cuba is really like. I hear different things from everyone, so I want to figure it out for myself.

I&#39;m sure there is good and there is bad. The purpose of going to Cuba (for me) would be to analyze how revolutionary society in Cuba works, what is good about Cuba and what needs to be fixed or avoided.

Different people go to Cuba for different reasons. I would wager that most socialists go there to see how Cubans live, not to look at the pretty beaches.


nahh, i don&#39;t like playing the, "ohhh teacher he stole my pencil" type of game, the moderators are here for something, if they don&#39;t catch it is obvious hypocracy and like i said being bias, but thanks anyways Lazar i sincerely appreciate it, but like i said i don&#39;t like being a snitch.

The moderators aren&#39;t omniscent. Some things go unnoticed.

I won&#39;t let your self-fulfilling prophecy come true, so I reported it for you.

Anyway, the guy was a douchebag and made other leftists look like we have to resort to ad hominems to prove our point.

Internet-forum justice has been served. :rolleyes:

[Oh-Dae-Su]

Fuzzy, what i mean is that for communism to exist, it&#39;s going to have to be a global effort. Capitalism is essential because it will lead to the revolution or whatever. It has to be an advanced state of capitalism, like America. But remeber the global scale i told you about, yes , so you would have to wait for all other countries to at least reach the status of Western Europe, economically in advanced capitalism. Correct me if im wrong, but this is as i understand it. Another thing, this is why i find it impossible, at least in our lifetimes and our children&#39;s children&#39;s lifetime for such revolution to occur. Because first of all, pure capitalism liassez-faire society doesn&#39;t exist (according to some like Lazar it does, than if that was the case communist societies do exist as well ;) ) .

another thing, i agree about Cuba with you Fuzzy, the people are going to have to mobilize when Castro dies and the system will be weak. But im sure the oligarchy around him will try to secure power, that&#39;s when i hope the USA or the international community can step in, because i would be ashamed and i will probably turn myself into a guerrilla fighter if Cuba turns itself into another 40 year dictatorship regime after Castro&#39;s death.

ClownPenis, thank you man for taking the time, i appreciate it :D

[cyu]

Anyways, how does a pimp coming to you offering "special service" (thats how they call it in the barber shops and stuff) doesn&#39;t sound like dramatic improvement? do you think there were even "pimps" before say 1990?

Would you ever work as a prostitute? Do you feel all prostitutes are nymphomaniacs and would love to have sex with any random man? Do you think there are conditions that force people into prostitution, even if they do not like having sex with random people off the street? Personally, I don&#39;t feel the fact that people are prostitutes is an improvement on society, unless there are perfectly good jobs these people would rather not do, but somehow I doubt that&#39;s the case in this situation.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

well i just realized :lol: i didn&#39;t mean improvement, i mean change, which is what has happen in China since Deng Xioping made his economic reforms, and they were for the good of China might i add.

[cyu]

i didn&#39;t mean improvement, i mean change, which is what has happen in China since Deng Xioping made his economic reforms, and they were for the good of China might i add.

So you feel the fact that there are prostitues in China now is a sign of good times? Or do you feel it&#39;s a negative outweighed by other positives?

[Oh-Dae-Su]

So you feel the fact that there are prostitues in China now is a sign of good times? Or do you feel it&#39;s a negative outweighed by other positives?

of course it is a negative thing, and that it is highly i mean highly outweighed by the positives, but prostitution exists everywhere including America and Europe, so what&#39;s your point about prostitution? there is nothing to argue about whether it is good or not, because it exists everywhere, and it will probably always keep existing i dont know. The fact is that i don&#39;t really see it as a huuuuge problem in China as it is in other Southeast Asian countries like in Thailand, Cambodia etc. where child prositution is a plague.

[cyu]

of course it is a negative thing, and that it is highly i mean highly outweighed by the positives, but prostitution exists everywhere including America and Europe, so what&#39;s your point about prostitution? there is nothing to argue about whether it is good or not, because it exists everywhere, and it will probably always keep existing i dont know. The fact is that i don&#39;t really see it as a huuuuge problem in China as it is in other Southeast Asian countries like in Thailand, Cambodia etc. where child prositution is a plague.

Now I don&#39;t know if rates of prostitution increased or decreased with Deng, but if you agree that people resorting to prostitution is a negative thing, why not seek an economic system where it was no longer necessary to do it in order to survive? Or do you feel capitalism can&#39;t be improved on or that we shouldn&#39;t try to improve it because it&#39;s good enough?

[Oh-Dae-Su]

you see that&#39;s the problem with you guys, you try to play innovators and try to make an economic system "perfect", nothing in life can be perfect even more improbable an economic system&#33;&#33; it&#39;s just impossible, that is why leftist thoughts are labled as utopian by many scholars. Plus, China is a market society, but that doesn&#39;t mean it&#39;s capitalist, heck we Americans aren&#39;t even capitalists, we have a mixed economy. But anyways, did you really go to China man? because i spent a whole month there, and i didn&#39;t see prostitution at all actually? i didn&#39;t see it as a big issue nowhere in fact&#33; what i saw as a big ass issue was the pirated DVD&#39;s, CD&#39;s etc. etc. that is everywhere.

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2006, 09:51 PM
...you, being the self centerd muther fuker u obviously are would not be sitting there supporting it if u were the person who had no where to sleep, nothing to eat or drink.
Please do not personally attack other members of the RevLeft board; flaming is not allowed. Such efforts only distract from any valid points.

I am issuing you a warning point for flaming.

[cyu]

you see that&#39;s the problem with you guys, you try to play innovators and try to make an economic system "perfect", nothing in life can be perfect even more improbable an economic system&#33;&#33;

Where would we be if everyone gave up and never tried to improve anything? The larger the gap between rich and poor, the more it pays to be a prostitute serving the rich. The more people there are being prostitutes, the less people there are growing food, building housing, providing health care, etc. That&#39;s the problem with the uneven distribution of wealth under capitalism. (And by capitalism, I don&#39;t mean the level of involvement that the government has in business, but the ownership of productive capital by people who don&#39;t use the capital themselves.)

No, I don&#39;t think democracy in the workplace would be perfect either, but if it results in a more even distribution of spending power, then it would be clearly better than the situation we are in right now.

[Dean]

Originally posted by FULL METAL [email protected] 20 2006, 12:28 AM
Like wikipedia which can be edited by anyone and anyone can slander any individual is closer to the truth.

Rotten library is garbage, you&#39;re going to get your information from a site already busy positng up pictures of dead people? What credibility does that site have? None.
I&#39;ve found rotten credible, and Wiki somewhat credible. That they post pictures of dead people makes no difference in regards to the historical accuracy of their library - it is there to focus on edgy topics, and hence has lots of information on certain subjects.

I hate wikipedia because it is run by a "libertarian" capitalist moron, though the fact that it is open to modification from the public doesn&#39;t seem to impede it too much. you just have to make sure that what you read is correct by cross - referencing it.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

cyu, improve is one thing, make perfect is another, which in contrast is something impossible, totally utopian, and such is the communist theory. " A SOCIETY WHERE EVERYBODY IS EQUAL NO NEED TO DO WRONGDOINGS, BLA BLA BLA", yeah ok get real :rolleyes:

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by Oh&#045;Dae&#045;[email protected] 28 2006, 03:02 PM
...is something impossible, totally utopian, and such is the communist theory. " A SOCIETY WHERE EVERYBODY IS EQUAL NO NEED TO DO WRONGDOINGS, BLA BLA BLA", yeah ok get real :rolleyes:
Do you have a better idea? The point is that equality and justice are goals.
You would prefer to have lower standards or not try at all? :rolleyes:

Communist theory is about working toward a classless society and if you don&#39;t know what that means (you didn&#39;t mention it), you don&#39;t really know what you are talking about.

What is "utopian" is attacking a struggle for social progress with no rational criticism and only making our efforts more difficult; that is utopian or cynical, whether you think you are somehow helping or just enjoy fucking yourself over.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

classless society

when are you going to understand that that is impossible&#33;&#33; a classless society would be a perfect one, and im sure you can work towards it, but it&#39;s not going to happen, because your not dealing with little insects here without brains, and emotions , your dealing with humans, and unfortunately you can&#39;t make us all equal, i mean it&#39;s even a natural law, why do you think there are races, ethnicities, and everyone looks different? we can&#39;t all be successfull, at least in this country there are shelters for the homeless.

[KC]

when are you going to understand that that is impossible&#33;&#33;

Because it isn&#39;t. In fact, it&#39;s almost inevitable.


a classless society would be a perfect one

Not necessarily, although it would be much better than the current society.


you can&#39;t make us all equal, i mean it&#39;s even a natural law, why do you think there are races, ethnicities, and everyone looks different?

It&#39;s not about making everyone physically or mentally equal. It&#39;s about making everybody socially equal. Which is of course completely possible.


we can&#39;t all be successfull, at least in this country there are shelters for the homeless.

Why not?

[Oh-Dae-Su]

Because it isn&#39;t. In fact, it&#39;s almost inevitable.

yes it is Lazar, CHANGE, but this doesn&#39;t mean it&#39;s going to be communism. Change will come, like you said, it it defenitaly inevitable, but whether it&#39;s going to be communism or not? im sure it wont.


Not necessarily, although it would be much better than the current society.

yes it would Lazar, everybody is equal, with equal opportunities, equal material posetions, this looks to me like a science fiction novel for god&#39;s sake&#33;&#33;



It&#39;s not about making everyone physically or mentally equal. It&#39;s about making everybody socially equal. Which is of course completely possible.

that if you admit mentally and emotional equality is impossible how can you believe social equality will be possible?



Why not?

simple, not everyone has the same idiosyncrasy.

[cyu]

it&#39;s not going to happen, because your not dealing with little insects here without brains, and emotions , your dealing with humans, and unfortunately you can&#39;t make us all equal, i mean it&#39;s even a natural law, why do you think there are races, ethnicities, and everyone looks different?

What is it about democratic workplaces that go against natural law? Do you believe democracy in general goes against natural law?

[KC]

yes it is Lazar, CHANGE, but this doesn&#39;t mean it&#39;s going to be communism. Change will come, like you said, it it defenitaly inevitable, but whether it&#39;s going to be communism or not? im sure it wont.

Well, considering the fact that we only have two social classes present, and that capitalism will inevitably fall, society is most certainly going to go to the proletariat. Which will implement communism. What do you think will happen after capitalism? Is your assertion based on anything besides a guess? Because ours is. It&#39;s based on the study of the development of human society.



yes it would Lazar, everybody is equal, with equal opportunities, equal material posetions, this looks to me like a science fiction novel for god&#39;s sake&#33;&#33;

There is no such thing as a perfect society.



that if you admit mentally and emotional equality is impossible how can you believe social equality will be possible?


Because that just means that everyone is equal in the eyes of society. You are given just as much opportunity as everyone else. I don&#39;t see how this is impossible at all. Society has been going in that direction anyways, if you haven&#39;t noticed.




simple, not everyone has the same idiosyncrasy.


Of course, it depends on how you define successful.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

Well, considering the fact that we only have two social classes present, and that capitalism will inevitably fall, society is most certainly going to go to the proletariat. Which will implement communism. What do you think will happen after capitalism? Is your assertion based on anything besides a guess? Because ours is. It&#39;s based on the study of the development of human society.

it&#39;s the theory of man, named Karl Marx, who more than once has been proven wrong might i add.


There is no such thing as a perfect society.

exactly my point, hence why communism won&#39;t exist, don&#39;t you think the ideas of communism look a bit like a "perfect" society?



Because that just means that everyone is equal in the eyes of society. You are given just as much opportunity as everyone else. I don&#39;t see how this is impossible at all. Society has been going in that direction anyways, if you haven&#39;t noticed.

ohh please Lazar, that happens in this country, would you label this country communist? in this country everybody has the same opportunities, i don&#39;t care what you say. Sure if your dad is rich he can send you to Harvard, and if your not rich you will earn it, hence everybody has the same opportunity, inclduing employment , health care or w/e, there are laws here that prohibit discrimination to be elegible for such things. What im talking about is, that in communism everybody is going to be all happy and shit because they are all working harmoniously together bla bla, yeah right, you think a guy won&#39;t be jelous of the other? hell be like :" how come this guy gets all the benefits and all the same things i do, yet his work is a piece of cake, and mines is in a factory?", get it now?


Of course, it depends on how you define successful.

well im sure there are some people who are happy how they are, yet in your mind they live like rats, and you would probably label tham as "poor", and i&#39;v seen this many times. That is what i meant by people&#39;s idiosyncracy being not the same, hence why everyone can&#39;t be equal even if they were forced by society.

[KC]

who more than once has been proven wrong

I have yet to see any credible debunking of any of Marx&#39;s theories. If you would like to present to me a credible source that "proves wrong" Marx&#39;s theory of history then you are more than welcome to do so.




exactly my point, hence why communism won&#39;t exist, don&#39;t you think the ideas of communism look a bit like a "perfect" society?

Communism isn&#39;t a perfect society.


that happens in this country

No it doesn&#39;t. So you think that a kid born into a rich family in suburban California has the same amount of opportunity in life as a kid born in Compton? Of course they don&#39;t. That&#39;s just common sense.


Sure if your dad is rich he can send you to Harvard, and if your not rich you will earn it, hence everybody has the same opportunity, inclduing employment , health care or w/e, there are laws here that prohibit discrimination to be elegible for such things.

You&#39;ve gotta be either fucking insane or fucking ignorant to say that every single person in this country has equal opportunity. Hell, you yourself say that the less fortunate will have to work harder in this very quote&#33; You defeated your own argument.


hell be like :" how come this guy gets all the benefits and all the same things i do, yet his work is a piece of cake, and mines is in a factory?"

And this guy would never say this because he likes his job. He chose to do the "harder work" because it is what he enjoys. If he doesn&#39;t enjoy what he does then he can choose a different job and hence wouldn&#39;t ask this question in the first place.



well im sure there are some people who are happy how they are, yet in your mind they live like rats, and you would probably label tham as "poor", and i&#39;v seen this many times. That is what i meant by people&#39;s idiosyncracy being not the same, hence why everyone can&#39;t be equal even if they were forced by society.


This still isn&#39;t a credible argument. People will do what they like to do in a communist society. They will choose the job they enjoy. These "ideosyncracies" you talk about would have nothing to do with the functioning of society.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

dont get me wrong, i think Marx was a great thinker, he did get a couple of things right, but he also got things wrong, which were some of the most important. I got to admit hes inside into capitalism was superb, his predictions of globalizations, international markets, business cycles, new economic ideas etc. But is this really wrong? is globalization really wrong? ok take a woman in China who works for Wal-Mart, she is being paid in US dollars , say 2 dollars a day or something, ok sure it&#39;s horrible, but 2 dollars in China would be more than if she was working for a damn government job&#33;


Karl Marx, a German philosopher, once predicted that a revolution would arise among the working class. The misery of the proletariats would set off a world revolution. The proletariats would triumph over the bourgeoisie and set up a new classless communist society. This “scientific socialism” theory that he formed was claimed to be based on a scientific study of history. Unfortunately, many of the assumptions on which he based his theories were wrong. The standard of living of the working class improved. Political, social, and economical conditions for the working class became better. With the improvements came a lost of appeal for a world revolution in industrially developed western countries. People are often more satisfied when they have a say in the government and how it is run. By the late 1800s, all men in most western countries had been granted the vote. With a voice in the government now, the working class could push for more reforms to make their lives even better. In 1900, a new political party formed, becoming



Marx as a prophet was a washout, in fact he was himself a class traitor, taking the side of the proletariat when he himself was the quintessential 19th century bourgeois. His socialist utopia turned out to be a corrupt tyranny, which expropriated the wealth of the middle class only in order to enrich a new class of apparatchiks.


Marx got many things wrong but most of all it was his basic theory to wit:
That the state would wither away and that it would be replaced by a dictatorship
of the prolotariat. States never have nor will wither away.What surprises is that
there are so many who been have been taken in by this absurdity....Yes what they did get was a regime virtually unmatched in history in sheer terror and some of it`s most ardent supporters ended up in the gulag if not worse.

he also got things about religion wrong:


Karl Marx once infamously referred to religion as "the opium of the people", and argued that it served to dampen the revolutionary fervor of the masses. Yet if Marx were alive to witness the acts of ferocity being committed by zealots in the name of Islam, one suspects that even he would readily admit he got that one wrong.

here are some interesting articles: http://webpages.charter.net/jimrs/marxpg.htm


http://www.socialaffairsunit.org.uk/blog/archives/000340.php

anyway, moving on to your other comments Lazar:



Communism isn&#39;t a perfect society

than what is it? because if everyone is equal, thats kind of an utopian idea don&#39;t you think? :blink:


No it doesn&#39;t. So you think that a kid born into a rich family in suburban California has the same amount of opportunity in life as a kid born in Compton? Of course they don&#39;t. That&#39;s just common sense.

so how come the kid from Compton can get into the same university as the rich suburban kid from say Beverly Hills? if your a good student and you study hard, than you will get it, the fact is the opportunity is there. Do you know what an opportunity is? it doesn&#39;t matter the resources you have, that won&#39;t take the opportunity away, there are other means.


You&#39;ve gotta be either fucking insane or fucking ignorant to say that every single person in this country has equal opportunity. Hell, you yourself say that the less fortunate will have to work harder in this very quote&#33; You defeated your own argument.

so you don&#39;t think i have the same opportunity of becoming a millionare as the one who already is? you think Bill Gates came from a millionare family? the opportunities are there, you just have to take them, it depends, this system harbors natural abilities, those who are entrepenuers, if you don&#39;t have what it takes, sorry that&#39;s nature, survival of the fittest. Sure if your rich, life would be much easier for you, but this doesn&#39;t mean the one who is not rich won&#39;t have opportunities; what can you tell me about all these rappers? you think they came from rich families?



And this guy would never say this because he likes his job. He chose to do the "harder work" because it is what he enjoys. If he doesn&#39;t enjoy what he does then he can choose a different job and hence wouldn&#39;t ask this question in the first place.

hell like his job? are you serious? are you meaning to tell me that anyone in their right mind loves driving a forklift around a warehouse and picking up boxes etc. etc. :rolleyes: ohh man Lazar, please c&#39;mon get real bro; you see what i mean, thanks for proving me right about communism being utopian, and why it wont work. You actually belive people are going to be like, ohh i love picking up the garbage, it&#39;s my dream job&#33;&#33; :lol: if people were to choose the jobs they desired, the world would be in chaos, it would shut down, everybody would choose office jobs&#33;&#33; :rolleyes: get real man c&#39;mon


This still isn&#39;t a credible argument. People will do what they like to do in a communist society. They will choose the job they enjoy. These "ideosyncracies" you talk about would have nothing to do with the functioning of society.

if people were to do what they desired, there would be mass disproportions and chaos, plus the idiocyncracy of a person is what they feel confortble with, what they percive as sane, or ok for them, or what their goals are in life what they strive for. For example, take 2 immigrant families, one of them has all it&#39;s members working 3 jobs, living all crammed up in an appartment, and they stay like that all their life, not making the effort of bettering their lifes; in contrast the other immigrant family starts out like them, but tries harder, and strives for more success, and they try to better themselves, because they can&#39;t see eachother being like that forever, so in a couple of years they move into a better house etc. See , there is a difference in idiosyncracy between the two immigrant families, while one conforms itself with just living in the same situation, the other strives for bettering themsleves; such is the difference between people.

[Dyst]

You actually belive people are going to be like, ohh i love picking up the garbage, it&#39;s my dream job&#33;&#33; laugh.gif if people were to choose the jobs they desired, the world would be in chaos, it would shut down, everybody would choose office jobs&#33;&#33; rolleyes.gif get real man c&#39;mon

Did you know that there is something called technological progress? The means of production are being mechanized, and human labour is less and less needed.

In our current system, this already causes a lot of unemployment. People don&#39;t have enough money to live, and it causes a lot of poverty as well.

Technological progress is good, of course. Unemployment and poverty is not. Therefore we will need another economical system.

[Global_Justice]

Originally posted by S G&#045;[email protected] 19 2006, 01:06 AM
Castro&#39;s own daughter cannot wait for him to die. She even escaped the hellhole.

The hospitals literally have human excrement on the floor.

Havana, once one of the most gorgeous cities in the world, has been reduced to a filthy ghetto.

OVERTHROW CASTRO NOW and free the Cuabn people&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;
havana is one of the most beautiful places in the world, mate you clearly haven&#39;t been there. oh wait, i guess your american so your not allowed to travel there freely&#33;

i know a few people who&#39;ve been there recently, there not left-wing, in fact one of them is conservative, so there not biased, and they said it was amazing and would recomend cuba as one of the best places to visit.

strange, they didn&#39;t mention the human excrement on the floor :unsure:

[Oh-Dae-Su]

Did you know that there is something called technological progress? The means of production are being mechanized, and human labour is less and less needed.

In our current system, this already causes a lot of unemployment. People don&#39;t have enough money to live, and it causes a lot of poverty as well.

Technological progress is good, of course. Unemployment and poverty is not. Therefore we will need another economical system.

what does that have to do with people being jelous? there is still going to be "jelousy". Why? because machines would be picking up garbage and doing all the backbraking jobs you think there will be no more discontent amongst people? get real man&#33;

Global Justice, beauty can&#39;t be taken away by anything. Im sure Rwanda was a beautiful place during the genocide, so does that exempt the horrors committed there? i dont understand your reasoning? sure, Habana is beautiful, iv been there myself 4 times, because i was born in Cuba, but beautiful is one thing, and an oppresive totalitarian regime is another. Those people you know off who went to Cuba, im sure didn&#39;t speak to Cubans first hand and got sincere anwser as to how they felt about the government, you go to Cuba as tourists, who have more privilages than the damn Cuban citizens themselves. How would you feel if i go to your country, and im treated with more respect, have more rights than you yourself in your own country&#33; By the way, i refute what i said, Habana is pretty ugly in fact, it looks like Stalingrad after WW2, looks like they dropped 10 atomic bombs in the damn city, if you don&#39;t believe me, than you have never really been there, and pictures speak for themselves , your more than welcomed to look online, because im sure you guys don&#39;t belive me, even though im Cuban and i have been there.

[thijs]

But is this really wrong? is globalization really wrong? ok take a woman in China who works for Wal-Mart, she is being paid in US dollars , say 2 dollars a day or something, ok sure it&#39;s horrible, but 2 dollars in China would be more than if she was working for a damn government job&#33;

Is this a joke? You are supporting exploitation?? If so I can&#39;t wait to see your reaction when you become the next victim. You think you are safe just because you happen to be a citizen of the USA?

[KC]

than what is it?

It&#39;s a classless society.


so how come the kid from Compton can get into the same university as the rich suburban kid from say Beverly Hills?

The kid from Compton could, if he had the money. Does he have the money? No.


if your a good student and you study hard, than you will get it, the fact is the opportunity is there.

No, you won&#39;t. Being a good student doesn&#39;t mean you will have the money to go to college.


so you don&#39;t think i have the same opportunity of becoming a millionare as the one who already is?

Of course not&#33; Sure, it might sound nice to say that you do, but the fact of the matter is that you don&#39;t. In order to become a millionaire, you would have to come up with a commodity that is going to sell like crazy, or you are going to have to take a portion of the market of an already existing commodity or service. As capitalism develops, you have less chance of being able to do this, as big business gets bigger and harder to compete with.


you think Bill Gates came from a millionare family?

Okay, Samuel Smiles. :lol:


the opportunities are there, you just have to take them, it depends, this system harbors natural abilities

If those natural abilities are an insatiable greed and ruthlessness, then yes.


Sure if your rich, life would be much easier for you, but this doesn&#39;t mean the one who is not rich won&#39;t have opportunities

Again, the poorer you are, the less opportunities there are. You yourself proved wrong your argument that everyone has equal opportunity.


what can you tell me about all these rappers? you think they came from rich families?

What can you tell me about the millions of people that don&#39;t "strike it rich" Samuel Smiles? Are you just going to keep tossing me these success stories of a handful of people and from that "evidence" make the claim that everyone has equal opportunity?



hell like his job? are you serious?

Yes.


are you meaning to tell me that anyone in their right mind loves driving a forklift around a warehouse and picking up boxes etc. etc.

In the event that nobody could be found that likes that job (I happen to enjoy driving a forklift), it could easily be automated.


You actually belive people are going to be like, ohh i love picking up the garbage, it&#39;s my dream job&#33;&#33;

Picking up garbage would be a community job. Everyone would do it.


if people were to choose the jobs they desired, the world would be in chaos, it would shut down, everybody would choose office jobs&#33;&#33;

No they wouldn&#39;t. I happen to hate office jobs, and I know many people who agree with me.


get real man c&#39;mon

Please, inform me on what jobs you think wouldn&#39;t be taken care of in a communist society. I will then proceed to prove you wrong.



if people were to do what they desired, there would be mass disproportions and chaos, plus the idiocyncracy of a person is what they feel confortble with, what they percive as sane, or ok for them, or what their goals are in life what they strive for. For example, take 2 immigrant families, one of them has all it&#39;s members working 3 jobs, living all crammed up in an appartment, and they stay like that all their life, not making the effort of bettering their lifes; in contrast the other immigrant family starts out like them, but tries harder, and strives for more success, and they try to better themselves, because they can&#39;t see eachother being like that forever, so in a couple of years they move into a better house etc. See , there is a difference in idiosyncracy between the two immigrant families, while one conforms itself with just living in the same situation, the other strives for bettering themsleves; such is the difference between people.

What are you even trying to prove with this argument? It&#39;s not proving anything. You&#39;re just saying "people are different". Well no shit.


But is this really wrong? is globalization really wrong?

This has nothing to do with right and wrong. Stop bringing morality into the argument. Globalization is exploitative. Will this imperialism end? Yes. How will it end? Workers revolt.


ok take a woman in China who works for Wal-Mart, she is being paid in US dollars , say 2 dollars a day or something, ok sure it&#39;s horrible, but 2 dollars in China would be more than if she was working for a damn government job&#33;

If someone is barely able to afford the basic necessities of life, they aren&#39;t going to say "at least I can afford this." They are going to say "I want to live." You really think it&#39;s that selfish for them to demand a living wage? What the hell is wrong with you?


Originally posted by Shitty Article
Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers on the chain not in order that man shall continue to bear that chain without fantasy or consolation, but so that he shall throw off the chain and pluck the living flower. The criticism of religion disillusions man, so that he will think, act, and fashion his reality like a man who has discarded his illusions and regained his senses, so that he will move around himself as his own true Sun. Religion is only the illusory Sun which revolves around man as long as he does not revolve around himself.
-Source (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1843/critique-hpr/intro.htm)

Again, whoever wrote this article of yours doesn&#39;t know shit about Marx or his theories.



what does that have to do with people being jelous? there is still going to be "jelousy". Why? because machines would be picking up garbage and doing all the backbraking jobs you think there will be no more discontent amongst people? get real man&#33;

What would people be jealous of if they&#39;re doing a job that they enjoy and everything is free?

[Oh-Dae-Su]

It&#39;s a classless society.

which is a utopian idea&#33;


The kid from Compton could, if he had the money. Does he have the money? No.

do you know what scholarships and financial aid is? you know that if you don&#39;t have money, you have to make an effort to get either one, you might not get a scholarship, but for god&#39;s sake financial aid is offered to all people who are poor, either you don&#39;t live in the USA, or your not over with high school or have applied for a college or university.



No, you won&#39;t. Being a good student doesn&#39;t mean you will have the money to go to college.

yeah same, first graduate from high school Lazar, then apply to a collage or univeristy, and youll see that if your not capable of paying for it, there is something called financial aid, dude, i graduated from HS, last year, all my friends got financial aid, i didn&#39;t get it because my parents income is a little high to not be able to pay for the univeristy, plus i have prepaid college, im lucky. But if not, i would of gone to the univeristy either way with financial aid.


Of course not&#33; Sure, it might sound nice to say that you do, but the fact of the matter is that you don&#39;t. In order to become a millionaire, you would have to come up with a commodity that is going to sell like crazy, or you are going to have to take a portion of the market of an already existing commodity or service. As capitalism develops, you have less chance of being able to do this, as big business gets bigger and harder to compete with.

well either you have the entrepenuer in you, or you dont. Wasnt Marx the one who said that lovely quote you adore: "Each to his capacity or something?", well , he sure ment it for capitalism, each to his capacity, and capitalism harbors that my friend.


Okay, Samuel Smiles

Samuel Smiles? not sure what you mean there or who that is... :blink:



What can you tell me about the millions of people that don&#39;t "strike it rich" Samuel Smiles? Are you just going to keep tossing me these success stories of a handful of people and from that "evidence" make the claim that everyone has equal opportunity

well everybody becoming rich is impossible , thats another utopian assumption, we are debating about opportunities, and iv given you a valid response, the opportunities are there, some get it others dont.




In the event that nobody could be found that likes that job (I happen to enjoy driving a forklift), it could easily be automated.
Picking up garbage would be a community job. Everyone would do it.

so in this "communist world" , the machines will be running the show :lol: ok fair enough, than why would picking garbage be a community thing? i thought the machines would be doing that? ohh but thats right, communism is about everybody being harmoniously doint things together , they&#39;ll wake up and be like :" hey everybody, its monday, its time to pick up the garbage, UMPA LUMPA DI TI DI TI"... :lol: :rolleyes:



No they wouldn&#39;t. I happen to hate office jobs, and I know many people who agree with me.

so lets see, no back braking jobs, the machines will be doing it, and you can either work on office jobs, or operate the machines, or be an actor, etc. and i can change whenever i like, awsome who wrote this story? George Lucas? ohh wait, it&#39;s actually a real life theory &#33; :lol:


Please, inform me on what jobs you think wouldn&#39;t be taken care of in a communist society. I will then proceed to prove you wrong.

what for? let me guess your response thats gonna prove me wrong&#33; THEY ARE FULLY AUTOMATED, RUNNED BY ROBOTS&#33; :lol:

plus i just got a question, how are people going to change jobs whenever they desire if they are not qualified&#33; "YEAH FUCK BEING A WAITER, I WANNA BE A PILOT NOW&#33;&#33;" hahaha, go to pilot school? hhahahaha this is just soooo retarded, i cant believe someone with a brain can actually analyze all these things and be like, yeah it will work.....



What are you even trying to prove with this argument? It&#39;s not proving anything. You&#39;re just saying "people are different". Well no shit.

than if you agree people are different in every human aspect possibly allowed by nature, how can you even think about people being equal in anything? Im sure you can enforce certain things to make people "equal", but, you think the citizens of Cuba, ex-USSR, North Korea, Laos, Vietnam etc. are equal? if they have any equality is poverty....


If someone is barely able to afford the basic necessities of life, they aren&#39;t going to say "at least I can afford this." They are going to say "I want to live." You really think it&#39;s that selfish for them to demand a living wage? What the hell is wrong with you?

do you not understand? 2 dollars would be buying her a lot, it&#39;s just that it seems horrendously low to us. With 200 dollars your practically Bill Gates for a day in China. (hyperbole DUH&#33;). But without globalization it would be worst&#33; can&#39;t you understand that? You think China would be in the place it is now, moving millions out of poverty in only 1 decade, without having implemented market reforms and allowing globalization? you must be either stupid or a knucklehead if you argue this. The fact is, that even if it is 2 dollars, it is a great sallary in China, and she can live better than those who don&#39;t work in foreing companies, HELLO&#33;&#33; why do you think we go there in the first place? because labor is cheap, they see 2 dollars and their willing to lick your shoes&#33; this is not something debatable, it&#39;s a fact&#33; Sure we can pay them what we pay the people here, if someone works in McDonalds here and gets 7 bucks, why does the chinese who works in the same company earns 2 dollars? well , thats how it is, companies aren&#39;t willing to go somewhere if it doesn&#39;t benefit them, you think their dumb?


Which granted them the right to choose which bourgeois asshole ruled over them every 4 years&#33;&#33;&#33;

ohh that&#39;s right, because the proletariat are not assholes, i mean assholes is only limited to the burgeois&#33; :rolleyes:



He was actually proletarian.

prove it.



Again, whoever wrote this article of yours doesn&#39;t know shit about Marx or his theories.

yeah, since i see you writing articles all the time about how much you understand Marx, because i mean if there is something critical about him that person knows shit about Marx&#33; hahahaha



What would people be jealous of if they&#39;re doing a job that they enjoy and everything is free?

what if i want to build a mansion, will that be free too? lol

[Communism]

This "the real cuba" website is utterly ridiculous, I would advise you to only judge Cuba on what your own eyes see, Of course this capitalist website is going to oppose Fidel Castro. Firstly there is no proof that the pictures are taken in Cuba and secondly it is completely pathetic that when you load up the home page of the website pictures are compared from 1902 - 2006. You may take a picture of a horse and cart in the centre of London today and compare that with London in the 1850&#39;s, the comparison is completely ridiculous. Lastly if you live in Britain i&#39;m sure you have seen the program "dispatches" where the worst of the worst is uncovered, I would certainly not be suprised to find images of bad hygene in hospitals in the NHS and I neither would I be suprised to see the pictures of surgery gone wrong in Eastern Europe. How can a country that has become so obsessed with having operations which are not needed such as plastic surgery critiscise A country which cannot provide sufficent health care, surely if America was that bothered it would offer some assistance yet as America only wants Cubas land for hotels and capital gain I seriously doubt that Cuba is going to get any.

[Global_Justice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2006, 03:40 PM
This "the real cuba" website is utterly ridiculous, I would advise you to only judge Cuba on what your own eyes see, Of course this capitalist website is going to oppose Fidel Castro. Firstly there is no proof that the pictures are taken in Cuba and secondly it is completely pathetic that when you load up the home page of the website pictures are compared from 1902 - 2006. You may take a picture of a horse and cart in the centre of London today and compare that with London in the 1850&#39;s, the comparison is completely ridiculous. Lastly if you live in Britain i&#39;m sure you have seen the program "dispatches" where the worst of the worst is uncovered, I would certainly not be suprised to find images of bad hygene in hospitals in the NHS and I neither would I be suprised to see the pictures of surgery gone wrong in Eastern Europe. How can a country that has become so obsessed with having operations which are not needed such as plastic surgery critiscise A country which cannot provide sufficent health care, surely if America was that bothered it would offer some assistance yet as America only wants Cubas land for hotels and capital gain I seriously doubt that Cuba is going to get any.
good post

[Oh-Dae-Su]

This "the real cuba" website is utterly ridiculous, I would advise you to only judge Cuba on what your own eyes see

trust me, 9 years living in Cuba, those pictures are a reflection of what my own eyes saw, unless i have some sort of condition in which my vision is distorted, and i see good positive things in a negative way? :lol: :rolleyes:


Firstly there is no proof that the pictures are taken in Cuba

well, you obviously first have never been to Cuba, second specially to Habana, if you had, you would recognize the landmarks.



You may take a picture of a horse and cart in the centre of London today and compare that with London in the 1850&#39;s, the comparison is completely ridiculous

that is exactly the point of the webstie&#39;s comparations. Are your brain cells not working correctly that you do not get it? if you were to compare the pictures of London, you would see that modern London is untouchable by the London of 40-60 years ago. But when you compare the pictures of Habana, it&#39;s the opposite&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; the Habana before the revolution, almost half a century ago, looks more modern than present Habana&#33;&#33;&#33; THATS THE POINT&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;


Of course Cuba is not going to get any aid from America, yet , why don&#39;t they get it from their buddies in Europe? if you guys looove Cuba so much?

the fact is, the world knows Castro is a ruthless dictator, and Cuba is a totalitarian regime, which oppresses it&#39;s people, and trust me, that website IS i swear in my death as a Cuban who lived it for 9 years unlike all of you, that website shows the truth&#33;

[Martyr]

Well spending a week in havana two weeks ago helped me to understand the conditions in whch these people live in. And what they told me personally was quite an eye opener. I used to be 50 50 with the whole Castro regime. And now since every cuban that I met says that they wished that castro would be removed I have well a different view.

[CLOCKWORK ORANGE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2006, 11:24 PM
Well spending a week in havana two weeks ago helped me to understand the conditions in whch these people live in. And what they told me personally was quite an eye opener. I used to be 50 50 with the whole Castro regime. And now since every cuban that I met says that they wished that castro would be removed I have well a different view.
What did you see? Where is the pics?

[Oh-Dae-Su]

Well spending a week in havana two weeks ago helped me to understand the conditions in whch these people live in. And what they told me personally was quite an eye opener. I used to be 50 50 with the whole Castro regime. And now since every cuban that I met says that they wished that castro would be removed I have well a different view.

thank you, you see, someone who actually went to Cuba and expirienced it first hand ^^

Martyr, have you gone to this webstie : www.therealcuba.com ? if you have, than tell me , is there any llies in that website, are those pictures not what you saw in Cuba??


CLOCKWORK ORANGE, i suggest you go to that webstie, its the truth about Cuba.

[CLOCKWORK ORANGE]

Originally posted by Oh&#045;Dae&#045;[email protected] 31 2006, 12:42 AM

Well spending a week in havana two weeks ago helped me to understand the conditions in whch these people live in. And what they told me personally was quite an eye opener. I used to be 50 50 with the whole Castro regime. And now since every cuban that I met says that they wished that castro would be removed I have well a different view.

thank you, you see, someone who actually went to Cuba and expirienced it first hand ^^

Martyr, have you gone to this webstie : www.therealcuba.com ? if you have, than tell me , is there any llies in that website, are those pictures not what you saw in Cuba??


CLOCKWORK ORANGE, i suggest you go to that webstie, its the truth about Cuba.
I just checked out the realcuba.com. You do realize that the website is extremely biased don&#39;t you?

[Oh-Dae-Su]

I just checked out the realcuba.com. You do realize that the website is extremely biased don&#39;t you?

prove how it is bias? tell me what is wrong, tell me what is a lie, because at least the information and the pictures that i have checked out from that website conform 100% to what i expirienced in Cuba, so believe me, it is not bias at all, well it probably is, but the truth is the truth, whether you are bias or not, i can&#39;t think of a good thing to mention about Cuba? free education? free healthcare? what for? if you can&#39;t graduate on whatever career you desire, and when there are no medical supplies no medicine even for a cold.

[CLOCKWORK ORANGE]

Listen am not saying it&#39;s completely bullshit. But it is extremely biased, it&#39;s completely one sided.

I am not doubting the fact that some of Cuba looks like that, but anyone can make a website showing all the bad things in their country.

Why does it only show the bad? Why not post up the good as well? Is Cuba that bad that all we see is misery and broken down buildings? Don&#39;t be ridiculous.

By the way, I saw the "humor" page. Why should anyone take the site seriously after seeing that?

Also, I checked out one of the website sponsors.

Julio A. Benitez, E.A.

10300 Sunset Drive

Suite 260

Miami, FL 33173
:lol: A Miami address? Am not suprised one bit.

[apathy maybe]

Agreed, anyone could make a page about how bad the USA is. Only need to take a few photos in slums, say that there is no national health care, that the FBI and local police cracks down on Food not Bombs.

A non-biased website would show both sides. Explain why, things might be this bad (example US sanction on Cuba, wait they talk about the sanction, it is wonderful and lifting it "will screw the US taxpayers&#33;"), and so on. Instead of saying that Cuba is a dictatorship, the site might explain how the system is supposed to work, and how it appears to work in practice.

No matter how bad you make Cuba out to be, the USA is just as bad, if not worse, in many respects. Poverty, racism, poor education and health care, huge national debt, check, to all.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

guys, i understand its one sided and anyone could make it up, but im telling you it is not bullshit, if there was something made up people would say it is, and nothing that i have seen on that site is made up at least to my knowledge and because i lived it. Have any of you been to Cuba to prove if it&#39;s bullshit or not? at least i lived there for 9 years, should i take your word for it? :rolleyes: c&#39;mon

[FULL METAL JACKET]

Why should we believe you? Ok so you lived in Cuba for 9 years. How old were you when you left? How old are you now?

[Oh-Dae-Su]

your right, you shouldn&#39;t believe me, but who would you rather believe? a Cuban himself? or others who haven&#39;t gone to Cuba who speak from information they get online? it&#39;s like if i try to argue with an Iraqi about the situation on Iraq, get what i mean?

i have not looked at every bit of information in that website, but i assure you, that the pictures that i have seen are all things i can relate to in a first hand expirience when i lived in Cuba. I was born in Cuba FULL, and i lived there until i was 9, then i along with my parents and sister moved here, like thousands do year after year, and now im 19.

[CLOCKWORK ORANGE]

I just wonder how many Cubans in Cuba are against the government. Since it is illegal to be against the government we will never know how many people genuinely support the government.

But please remember Cubans must decide their own fate. None of this U.S. meddling with Cuban politics, or military intervention. That will only cause more suffering, I hope you see that Oh Dae Su. I also hope you don&#39;t wish something like a capitalist gov&#39;t or a capitalist revolution. It will be like Russia, a mad scramble for wealth. Which will leave 90% of the population without any wealth.

I just hope someday I can see for myself what&#39;s happening over there.

[WUOrevolt]

Not everyone here supports Castro. Me and the rest of the Anarchists for sure dont, and many others as well.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

CLOCKWORK ORANGE, first of all, im not a leftist, so don&#39;t even think about me not wanting to install a market economy in Cuba. If you want to know how many genuinely support the government, that is very hard to tell, what is easy to tell is how many oppose it, which is, all the people that don&#39;t belong to the Communist Party in Cuba. So let me put it to you, many people are part of the Communist Party, because they have no choice, they just say fuck it , and go along with the system, because people have too eat too you know, understand what i mean? the rest, i would say a good 90+ % dont support the government. But you have to understand, that the party ideology is so deeply embeded in the Cuban society , that it is hard to escape it. For example, when i was a kid, i was forced to march on rallies conmemorating such and such event of the Cuban Revolution, so , when you see those huuuge masses in Habana standing in the sun hearing Fidel give his speech, turst me they are all made to go there, the school makes them, it&#39;s like a school field trip sort of thing. Also, my mother for example, worked in a bank, she was promoted to being the director of the bank, once you become the director, since you are running the show, you are forced to join the party, my mother refused, and she was lowered in her ranks to her normal position. But just ask Martyr he will tell you the people&#39;s sentiment, take his word since you all don&#39;t take mines since im not a leftist, but Martyr is a leftist, and he can tell you what the people think.

anyways CLOCKWORK, you want to know what i think should happen in Cuba? well this question was asked by FULL METAL JACKET a while ago in this same thread, back in page 3 or something, and i gave him my response but he never told me what he thought, i guess he could not make anything out of it, maybe you can CLOCKWORK.

here it is:


i want Castro gone, but not drastically change the government, because the shithole will continue, i think that Cuba should be modeled after the Chinese system, because unfortunately if you change everything drastically like they did in Russia after the collapse of the USSR there will be years of massive problems. When you have a totalitarian Marxist Leninist government you cant change both the economy and government at the same time. China changed the economy while still maintianing a grip with the government.So, although i think that it should be a market socialist economy, i think that it should be kept this way under a centralized government but that it is under supervision of the UN or the USA, and then, when everything is stable economically for example like in China ,the people will start demanding change and then the USA or the UN can decide if it is time for decentralization of the government.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

sorry, i just couldnt help but noticing some interesting lines from you CLOCKWORK:


But please remember Cubans must decide their own fate

i think that, if i told you what the average Cuban in the streets wanted their countrie&#39;s fate to be, you would not believe me, and you would say it&#39;s ludacris. But im going to tell you anyways :D .. i can speak for my family in Cuba, for the people in my town, for the people in my block who all have at least one family member in a foreign country, that the Cuban people are really saying : "GOD&#33;&#33; WHY DIDN&#39;T WE HAVE OIL?&#33;&#33;" :lol: , im serious, the people would not even care , in fact would welcome and American invasion like they did in Iraq to overthrow Castro, in fact if i had the resources, i would do a poll to Cubans about this and you will see the results. Cubans love America. You probably don&#39;t know what the word YUMA , means, hehehe, you see it&#39;s things that you will never understand even though you might not believe me at all.



I just hope someday I can see for myself what&#39;s happening over there.

im telling you, you want to see authentic i mean AUTHENTIC pictures of how people really live and the conditions of Cuba, that website doesn&#39;t like, i mean pictures don&#39;t lie.

[CLOCKWORK ORANGE]

Not everyone here supports Castro. Me and the rest of the Anarchists for sure dont, and many others as well.
That&#39;s good to hear. What is the usual Marxist or Leninist reply to Anarchist criticisms of the Cuban gov&#39;t?

As I am going through this thread I cannot believe the audacity of some leftist posters here at revleft. Some of them speak so sure of Cuba&#39;s gov&#39;t as if they are living in Cuba. That&#39;s insane. We shouldn&#39;t be putting words in other peoples mouths. Are there any members of Revleft in Cuba?


But you have to understand, that the party ideology is so deeply embeded in the Cuban society, that it is hard to escape it.
It is without a doubt some that some of the gov&#39;t practices are grotesque. Don&#39;t get me wrong, as far as questionable gov&#39;t practices, the U.S tops the list.


For example, when i was a kid, i was forced to march on rallies conmemorating such and such event of the Cuban Revolution, so , when you see those huuuge masses in Habana standing in the sun hearing Fidel give his speech, turst me they are all made to go there, the school makes them, it&#39;s like a school field trip sort of thing.
I don&#39;t doubt that. A little off topic, but I remember my mom telling me how she was forced to be in parades for Trujillio, a Dominican dictator, she was in elementary school.


i want Castro gone, but not drastically change the government, because the shithole will continue, i think that Cuba should be modeled after the Chinese system, because unfortunately if you change everything drastically like they did in Russia after the collapse of the USSR there will be years of massive problems. When you have a totalitarian Marxist Leninist government you cant change both the economy and government at the same time. China changed the economy while still maintianing a grip with the government.So, although i think that it should be a market socialist economy, i think that it should be kept this way under a centralized government but that it is under supervision of the UN or the USA, and then, when everything is stable economically for example like in China ,the people will start demanding change and then the USA or the UN can decide if it is time for decentralization of the government.
It&#39;s pretty hard to give you a quick reply critique on that. I think many of us on message boards tend to oversimplify things. The Cuban people may not agree how socialism in Cuba is being managed or believe in Castro but overall they do believe in socialism. One of the threads in the chitchat section has a member in contact with someone in Cuba and he said that the Cuban people believe in socialism. That may not mean the current gov&#39;t but the idea yes.

[Intifada]

Originally posted by Oh&#045;Dae&#045;[email protected] 31 2006, 05:29 AM
the people would not even care , in fact would welcome and American invasion like they did in Iraq to overthrow Castro, in fact if i had the resources, i would do a poll to Cubans about this and you will see the results. Cubans love America.
Utter crap.

According to the April 12, 2000 NBC News Report, CIA: "Most Cubans loyal to homeland", the internal opposition movement is very small and has almost no public support.

It reported:

There is no indication, US officials say, of any nascent rebellion about to spill into the streets, no great outpouring of support for human rights activists in prison. In fact, there are fewer than 100 activists on the island and a support group of perhaps 1,000 more, according to US officials.

Also, according to an article "Dissidents Wage Lonely Battle in Castro&#39;s Cuba", in the Washington Post, July 16, 2000:

In a dozen interviews, political dissidents, other Cubans estranged from the state system and diplomats said they believe that as many as three-quarters of those who join opposition organizations are government agents or opportunists looking for a quick arrest so they can obtain refugee status from the United States as a "persecuted" person. According to one long-term dissident leader, there may be no more than 500 genuine opposition activists.

On the occasion of the 40th anniversary of the triumph of the Revolution, leading Cuban dissident, Elizardo Sanchez, was interviewed by Patricia Grogg of IPS.

She wrote:

In his assessment of the last four decades, Elizardo acknowledged the existence of positive elements that should be preserved, and which have led "the majority of the Cuban people to support the Revolution"

Among the positive things, he mentioned literacy, agrarian and urban reforms, universal education and health care, and "above all, the cultivation of a sense of solidarity among people" and "a reinforcement of the feelings of independence and national dignity that still endure."

While his praise is far from unqualified, the public support for the Revolution must be frustrating for "dissidents" in their up-hill struggle to win the hearts and minds of the Cuban people who, it seems, have much to lose if Castro is overthrown by Washington.

They have only to look around at their Caribbean and Latin American neighbours to see that.

The simple fact is, the so-called "dissidents" do not represent the interests of the Cuban people, but rather those of the US government. That this is the case has been confirmed by the former head of the US Interest Section in Havana, Wayne Smith:

We [in the USA] aren&#39;t really interested in democracy and human rights. We just use those words to hide our true reasons.

If democracy and human rights really mattered to us, Indonesia, Turkey, Mexico, Peru and Colombia - for example - would be our enemies. Cuba is a paradise compared to those countries and most countries in the world.

Since 1985, we have stated publicly that we will encourage and openly finance dissident and human rights groups in Cuba; this, too, is in our interests. The United States isn&#39;t financing all those groups - only the ones that are best known internationally.

Those dissidents and human rights groups in Cuba - that are nothing but a few people - are only important to the extent that they serve us in a single cause: that of destabilizing Fidel Castro&#39;s regime.

You can see why Castro jails "dissidents".

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by Intifada+Mar 31 2006, 01:47 PM--> (Intifada @ Mar 31 2006, 01:47 PM)
Oh&#045;Dae&#045;[email protected] 31 2006, 05:29 AM
the people would not even care , in fact would welcome and American invasion like they did in Iraq to overthrow Castro, in fact if i had the resources, i would do a poll to Cubans about this and you will see the results. Cubans love America.
Utter crap.

According to the April 12, 2000 NBC News Report, CIA: "Most Cubans loyal to homeland", the internal opposition movement is very small and has almost no public support.

It reported:

There is no indication, US officials say, of any nascent rebellion about to spill into the streets, no great outpouring of support for human rights activists in prison. In fact, there are fewer than 100 activists on the island and a support group of perhaps 1,000 more, according to US officials.

Also, according to an article "Dissidents Wage Lonely Battle in Castro&#39;s Cuba", in the Washington Post, July 16, 2000:

In a dozen interviews, political dissidents, other Cubans estranged from the state system and diplomats said they believe that as many as three-quarters of those who join opposition organizations are government agents or opportunists looking for a quick arrest so they can obtain refugee status from the United States as a "persecuted" person. According to one long-term dissident leader, there may be no more than 500 genuine opposition activists.

On the occasion of the 40th anniversary of the triumph of the Revolution, leading Cuban dissident, Elizardo Sanchez, was interviewed by Patricia Grogg of IPS.

She wrote:

In his assessment of the last four decades, Elizardo acknowledged the existence of positive elements that should be preserved, and which have led "the majority of the Cuban people to support the Revolution"

Among the positive things, he mentioned literacy, agrarian and urban reforms, universal education and health care, and "above all, the cultivation of a sense of solidarity among people" and "a reinforcement of the feelings of independence and national dignity that still endure."

While his praise is far from unqualified, the public support for the Revolution must be frustrating for "dissidents" in their up-hill struggle to win the hearts and minds of the Cuban people who, it seems, have much to lose if Castro is overthrown by Washington.

They have only to look around at their Caribbean and Latin American neighbours to see that.

The simple fact is, the so-called "dissidents" do not represent the interests of the Cuban people, but rather those of the US government. That this is the case has been confirmed by the former head of the US Interest Section in Havana, Wayne Smith:

We [in the USA] aren&#39;t really interested in democracy and human rights. We just use those words to hide our true reasons.

If democracy and human rights really mattered to us, Indonesia, Turkey, Mexico, Peru and Colombia - for example - would be our enemies. Cuba is a paradise compared to those countries and most countries in the world.

Since 1985, we have stated publicly that we will encourage and openly finance dissident and human rights groups in Cuba; this, too, is in our interests. The United States isn&#39;t financing all those groups - only the ones that are best known internationally.

Those dissidents and human rights groups in Cuba - that are nothing but a few people - are only important to the extent that they serve us in a single cause: that of destabilizing Fidel Castro&#39;s regime.

You can see why Castro jails "dissidents". [/b]
Intifada, I was looking for those same articles.

Well put, I give you a pat on the back for that, comrade.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

you are soooooooo stupid, you get a report made by an American news agency, then when i or someone else tries to use an American media source to refute something, you call it "PROPAGANDA"...get out of here&#33;&#33;


Utter crap.

ohh that&#39;s right, i keep forgetting you have been to Cuba, your Cuban, and you know what the Cuban people think and feel, please intifada don&#39;t embarrass yourself .....

ill quote what a fellow "comrade" (Martyr), who actually went to Cuba said:

Well spending a week in havana two weeks ago helped me to understand the conditions in whch these people live in. And what they told me personally was quite an eye opener. I used to be 50 50 with the whole Castro regime. And now since every cuban that I met says that they wished that castro would be removed I have well a different view.

so what do you think now Intifada? have you actually talked to the Cuban people to refute that? or are you basing your arguement on a stupid NBC inerview or whatever? ohhh please go home&#33;&#33;


of course there is going to be few public opposition, if not, you would be jailed or executed&#33;&#33; i thought your brain still had cells which functioned correctly to actually know that&#33;??? are you soooo retarded to understand that dissidents are persecuted in Cuba? Castro has control of the military and the police force. You have just showed me intifada, the little you know about Cuba, so dont come in here trying to tell me anything. Cubans hate Fidel, they love America, i can bet my life on it, because i more than you know my own people , or are you going to say that is utter crap too? :rolleyes:

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/cuba/ Human Rights Watch report on Cuba

[Intifada]

Originally posted by Oh&#045;Dae&#045;[email protected] 31 2006, 11:50 PM
you are soooooooo stupid
What is it with you and writing like an infant?


you get a report made by an American news agency

There were more than just the one.


then when i or someone else tries to use an American media source to refute something, you call it "PROPAGANDA"...get out of here&#33;&#33;


I never called anything "propaganda", though I could bet that most anti-Cuban sources are very pro-Bush and pro-America.


ohh that&#39;s right, i keep forgetting you have been to Cuba, your Cuban, and you know what the Cuban people think and feel, please intifada don&#39;t embarrass yourself .....

I have not been to Cuba yet, unfortunately, but I have met and know a lot of people who have had the opportunity to visit the island. I have heard visitors saying good things about Cuba and Castro. The point is, I don&#39;t care much for subjective "evidence", due to the fact that it is always biased.

GALLUP POLL: Cubans Support the Revolution (http://www.marxmail.org/facts/cuba_gallup.htm)


ill quote what a fellow "comrade" (Martyr), who actually went to Cuba said:

You don&#39;t have to.

Show me objective evidence of the hatred felt towards Castro by Cuban citizens, and show me objective evidence of the "love for America" felt by Cuban citizens.

I have given you evidence, you give me yours.


ohhh please go home&#33;&#33;

I only quoted that because I found it very funny.

What a crap insult.


of course there is going to be few public opposition, if not, you would be jailed or executed&#33;&#33;

Rubbish.

First of all, the Cuban people can hold protests and meetings, without being arrested for it.

Cuba dissidents debate democracy (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4569981.stm)

By the way, at that time, when 200 "dissidents" held a rally against Castro, 200 000 supporters of Castro attended a rally about US-Cuban relations.

Moreover, it is a fact (http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/regAMR/regAMR?OpenDocument) that Cuba has not executed or killed anybody from the opposition, unlike what the US tries to do and has done time and time again.


are you soooo retarded to understand that dissidents are persecuted in Cuba?

Again, I shall quote Wayne Smith, the former head of the US Interests Section in Havana:

Since 1985, we [in the USA] have stated publicly that we will encourage and openly finance dissident and human rights groups in Cuba.... The United States isn&#39;t financing all those groups--only the ones that are best known internationally.

Those dissidents and human rights groups in Cuba--that are nothing but a few people--are only important to the extent that they serve us in a single cause: that of destabilizing Fidel Castro&#39;s regime.

Through those two policies--economic pressure and human rights--we want to force the overthrow of Fidel Castro and then install a transitional government that we like--to reinstate the people we want and, thus control Cuba once again.

It is no surprise that Castro is suspiscious of the very few "dissidents" there are in Cuba.

Indeed, the 75 "dissidents" that were jailed in 2003 were known to have received large sums of money, as well as equipment such as radios and computers, from the US Interests Section in Havana.

All countries have in place protection against attacks against their own sovereignty. Cuba is no different, except in that it is perhaps the victim of the most consistent threat to its independence from the most powerful nation on Earth.

Since 1959, ignoring the embargo that has been placed on the Cuban people, Cuba has been the target of hundreds of terrorist attacks, which have killed and injured thousands of people.


Cubans hate Fidel, they love America

Evidence please&#33;

It would be nice you know.


http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/cuba/ Human Rights Watch report on Cuba

That link is outdated.

For example, contrary to the very first claim that "Cuban authorities continue to treat as criminal offenses nonviolent activities such as meeting to discuss the economy or elections", 200 "dissidents" held a meeting about "democracy" just last year. I have even provided a link to a BBC article about that, earlier on in the post.

I am not a wholehearted supporter of Fidel Castro. I give him only critical support. But the fact is, your statements are simply untrue. I see that you were nine when your family left Cuba for the US. Your parents were not going to give you an impartial account of what Cuba was like, and the views you have espoused so far are indicative of such an inherent hatred for Castro.

You probably even support the embargo.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

so you don&#39;t believe accounts of Cuban people, and other leftists who have been to Cuba and have actually spoken to the people first hand, and you call that subjective and you rather believe reports online? and you call your reports evidence? and you call the human rights link i gave you outdated? when all the reports you give me are outdated as well the latest is from like 2001, by the way the latest is from a link you gave me which clearly says the following:


A number of prisoners of conscience were released in 2001, but several new arrests indicated that the Cuban authorities had not renounced curbs on the peaceful exercise of freedom of expression, association and assembly. Short-term detention and other forms of harassment continued to be used to repress the activities of journalists, political activists and others. An unofficial moratorium on executions was said to be in force. No executions were reported during 2001, although the courts continued to hand down death sentences.

http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/amr/cuba&#33;Open

and don&#39;t you understand that the rallies that gather 200 thousand or more are not even 30% in favor? they are FORCED, you understand what that means?? the people do not willingly go to "support" rallies for Castro. Only few go to opposition because the people are scared.



I am not a wholehearted supporter of Fidel Castro. I give him only critical support. But the fact is, your statements are simply untrue. I see that you were nine when your family left Cuba for the US. Your parents were not going to give you an impartial account of what Cuba was like, and the views you have espoused so far are indicative of such an inherent hatred for Castro.

what are you on?? why do you speak so sure of yourself as if you know me? my parents were dying to come here to America, so was i even at 9 years old, and everyone in my block spoke of it, spoke of going to La Yuma, see it&#39;s things you don&#39;t know about therefore you should not open your mouth and tell me it&#39;s not true&#33;&#33; do you realize how ridiculous you sound? it&#39;s like if you speak about things of your country, and i refute all of them by internet sources&#33;&#33;

[Martyr]

Originally posted by CLOCKWORK ORANGE+Mar 30 2006, 05:03 PM--> (CLOCKWORK ORANGE @ Mar 30 2006, 05:03 PM)
[email protected] 30 2006, 11:24 PM
Well spending a week in havana two weeks ago helped me to understand the conditions in whch these people live in. And what they told me personally was quite an eye opener. I used to be 50 50 with the whole Castro regime. And now since every cuban that I met says that they wished that castro would be removed I have well a different view.
What did you see? Where is the pics? [/b]
Well thats the problem since Iam a cheap bastard I dont have a digital camera maybe next winter if I go there I will buy one. Anyways what I saw was literarly shit and urine in the streets half of the buildings are rotting away which I can imagine use to look good. I spoke with the tour guide in the bus and I had to promise I would not tell anyone about what he said because he would get arrested by the "Revolutionary" police. He told me in two words "No future". He said "The health care is dismal since it is shared to the "Masses"the quality of it is just horrendous. The education again maybe free but so what if you have a degree in the arts or sciences if you dont belong to the party your nothing. He is a fresh graduate in high school so he said "If you dont submit to their teachings or doctrines they will give you a hard time". I&#39;am not making this up i mean this is exactly what he told me. Yes Viva la revolutione

[Martyr]

And since my parents grew up on the other side of the berlin wall. My mom who used to live in St. Petersburg, and my dad living in a small town in Poland called Cieszen I can tell you many other stories of the glories of socialism and communism and marxism. Maybe another time

[Nicky Scarfo]

Originally posted by S G&#045;[email protected] 19 2006, 01:06 AM
Castro&#39;s own daughter cannot wait for him to die. She even escaped the hellhole.

The hospitals literally have human excrement on the floor.

Havana, once one of the most gorgeous cities in the world, has been reduced to a filthy ghetto.

OVERTHROW CASTRO NOW and free the Cuabn people&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;
:lol:

[Martyr]

By the way I was stunned that not a single cuban that I have seen wears a che guevara tshirt? They are really cheap in Cuba and isnt Che a National "Hero"

[Intifada]

Originally posted by Oh&#045;Dae&#045;[email protected] 1 2006, 06:59 PM
so you don&#39;t believe accounts of Cuban people, and other leftists who have been to Cuba and have actually spoken to the people first hand, and you call that subjective and you rather believe reports online? and you call your reports evidence?


The account given by one particular person does not count for anything, seeing as another person could give a completely different account altogether about the exact same topic. I have given evidence for my views, and instead of refuting them you have simply ignored them and continued to post the subjective opinions that you have held since being a little kid.


and you call the human rights link i gave you outdated?

I&#39;ve already provided you with reason as to why I believe that link to be outdated.



A number of prisoners of conscience were released in 2001, but several new arrests indicated that the Cuban authorities had not renounced curbs on the peaceful exercise of freedom of expression, association and assembly. Short-term detention and other forms of harassment continued to be used to repress the activities of journalists, political activists and others. An unofficial moratorium on executions was said to be in force. No executions were reported during 2001, although the courts continued to hand down death sentences.


You do not read my posts do you?

I never argued that it doesn&#39;t happen.

I have given you reasons as to why such people are arrested.

Most "dissidents", as the former head of the US Interests Section in Havana Wayne Smith states, are there to simply destabilise the Cuban government in the interests of the US, not the Cuban people. It&#39;s no wonder why Castro jails them.

If any group of people were trying to destabilise the US government, I would think the US would take similar action to combat it.


and don&#39;t you understand that the rallies that gather 200 thousand or more are not even 30% in favor?

Evidence for this nice little statistic you mention, please?


they are FORCED, you understand what that means??

Again, can I see some evidence to validate your claim?


the people do not willingly go to "support" rallies for Castro. Only few go to opposition because the people are scared.

Evidence, please?

I have already given plenty evidence that contradicts this claim.


it&#39;s like if you speak about things of your country, and i refute all of them by internet sources&#33;&#33;

As long as those sources are credible, you would have a valid argument, unlike the one you have so far out against Cuba so far.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

The account given by one particular person does not count for anything, seeing as another person could give a completely different account altogether about the exact same topic. I have given evidence for my views, and instead of refuting them you have simply ignored them and continued to post the subjective opinions that you have held since being a little kid.

it&#39;s not only me, like i said don&#39;t take my word for it, you totally disregarded Martyr&#39;s comments, why? obviously because they don&#39;t conform to your belief about the Cuban people&#39;s real sentiment&#33;


and my link is outdated because
200 "dissidents" held a meeting about "democracy" just last year

well i guess this is outdated as well :
Rubbish.

First of all, the Cuban people can hold protests and meetings, without being arrested for it.

evidence here it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Cuba


The Cuban government tolerates neither lesbian nor gay newspapers, nor LGBT organizations. The Cuban Association of Gays and Lesbians, formed in 1994, was suppressed in 1997 and its members were arrested.

Today, Article 303a of the Criminal Code punishes "Publicly Manifested Homosexuality" with up to three months and one year in prison, or a fine of 100 to 300 cuotas

how do you like that? ^^ for those who say homosexuals are not persecuted in Cuba.



are there to simply destabilise the Cuban government in the interests of the US, not the Cuban people. It&#39;s no wonder why Castro jails them.

like i told you, CUBANS LOVE AMERICA&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; DAMMIT&#33;&#33;&#33; get it through your head&#33;&#33;&#33; where is your evidence that they dont&#33;&#33;&#33;?????????????? :angry: pissing me off already&#33;&#33; gosh, i freaking told you&#33;&#33; the dissidents speak for the Cuban people&#39;s sentiment&#33;&#33;&#33; OF COURSE FIDEL IS GOING TO OPPOSE THIS&#33;&#33;&#33; are you retarded??



If any group of people were trying to destabilise the US government, I would think the US would take similar action to combat it.

what? first of all, since the US is not a totalitarian regime that oppresses it&#39;s own people and gives more rights to foreing citizens than to American citizens, Americans don&#39;t feel a need to distabalize the country, and the few who do , thats exactly it, a few, with "freedom of speech", or are you going to tell me that the KKK doesn&#39;t have freedom of speech? :rolleyes:



Evidence for this nice little statistic you mention, please?

do you have the statistics that says which % of the people who attend rallies are in favor? otherwise i can speak for myself who have attended such rallies, and i was forced allong with my fellow peers in all of my school to attend, it&#39;s like a fieldtrip sort of thing that you can&#39;t miss. All of those who attend the rallies are from schools and universities who are told my the Communist Party to attend, none are local people who just say, "hey Fidel is holding such and such rally, lets go&#33;" (yeah right)...


anyways for those who praise free education in Cuba, here it is:
http://www.therealcuba.com/FreeEducation.htm

for those who praise free health care in Cuba, here it is:
http://www.therealcuba.com/Page10.htm

[Intifada]

it&#39;s not only me, like i said don&#39;t take my word for it, you totally disregarded Martyr&#39;s comments, why?

Like I have already stated, many times to your ignorance, subjective views count for nothing.


obviously because they don&#39;t conform to your belief about the Cuban people&#39;s real sentiment&#33;

Again, I know many people who have been to Cuba and come back with completely different views. CompanerodeLibertad is one user on this board who has been to Cuba, I believe, and if you ask him (he’s away at the moment) about the views of the Cuban people regarding the Castro government, he would describe it in a way completely different to yours and even Martyr’s.

That is why subjective views count for nothing in this debate.


how do you like that? ^^ for those who say homosexuals are not persecuted in Cuba.

Wikipedia is not a reliable source for issues of a political nature.

Indeed, the information on homosexuality in Cuba is misinformation to say the least.

Homophobic policies existed only in Cuba, prior to recent times, because of Latin American cultural machismo. This has since faded away and has been challenged by the state.

In 1979 homosexual acts were decriminalised in Cuba (unlike in many capitalist countries). In 1987 the offence of "homosexual acts in public places" was removed from Cuba&#39;s penal code. In fact the age of consent for homosexuals in Cuba is 16 years, the same as for heterosexuals. In 1993 sex education workshops on homosexuality were run throughout the country, in order to explain that homophobia is a prejudice.

At the same time Fidel Castro declared:


I don&#39;t consider homosexuality to be a phenomenon of degeneration... [I consider] it to be one of the natural aspects and tendencies of human beings which should be respected. I am absolutely opposed to any form of repression, contempt, scorn or discrimination with regard to homosexuals.

In the very same year - "Strawberry and Chocolate" - the first Cuban film to deal openly with homosexuality, was released and became hugely popular. It was the only film funded by the government that year.

In 1995, the May Day march was led by drag queens who were cheered along the whole route.


like i told you, CUBANS LOVE AMERICA&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; DAMMIT&#33;&#33;&#33; get it through your head&#33;&#33;&#33;

Shouting the same response is not debate, it is childish crap.

Are you sure you are nineteen years old?

I repeat:

GIVE ME YOUR EVIDENCE FOR SUCH A CLAIM&#33;

Otherwise, your claim is worthless in the context of the debate.


where is your evidence that they dont&#33;&#33;&#33;??????????????

You truly haven’t read any of my posts, have you?

Seriously, you just skip over them and then repeatedly post the same old bullshit, don’t you?

I shall, however, for the last fucking time, re-post all the evidence I have so far provided that shows that your claim that “Cubans love America” and that they are supportive of “dissidents”, even though the burden of proof rests on your shoulders.

According to the April 12, 2000 NBC News Report, CIA: "Most Cubans loyal to homeland", the internal opposition movement is very small and has almost no public support.

It reported:

There is no indication, US officials say, of any nascent rebellion about to spill into the streets, no great outpouring of support for human rights activists in prison. In fact, there are fewer than 100 activists on the island and a support group of perhaps 1,000 more, according to US officials.

Also, according to an article "Dissidents Wage Lonely Battle in Castro&#39;s Cuba", in the Washington Post, July 16, 2000:

In a dozen interviews, political dissidents, other Cubans estranged from the state system and diplomats said they believe that as many as three-quarters of those who join opposition organizations are government agents or opportunists looking for a quick arrest so they can obtain refugee status from the United States as a "persecuted" person. According to one long-term dissident leader, there may be no more than 500 genuine opposition activists.

On the occasion of the 40th anniversary of the triumph of the Revolution, leading Cuban dissident, Elizardo Sanchez, was interviewed by Patricia Grogg of IPS.

She wrote:

In his assessment of the last four decades, Elizardo acknowledged the existence of positive elements that should be preserved, and which have led "the majority of the Cuban people to support the Revolution".

Among the positive things, he mentioned literacy, agrarian and urban reforms, universal education and health care, and "above all, the cultivation of a sense of solidarity among people" and "a reinforcement of the feelings of independence and national dignity that still endure."

While his praise is far from unqualified, the public support for the Revolution must be frustrating for "dissidents" in their up-hill struggle to win the hearts and minds of the Cuban people who, it seems, have much to lose if Castro is overthrown by Washington.

They have only to look around at their Caribbean and Latin American neighbours to see that.

The simple fact is, the so-called "dissidents" do not represent the interests of the Cuban people, but rather those of the US government. That this is the case has been confirmed by the former head of the US Interest Section in Havana, Wayne Smith:

We [in the USA] aren&#39;t really interested in democracy and human rights. We just use those words to hide our true reasons.

If democracy and human rights really mattered to us, Indonesia, Turkey, Mexico, Peru and Colombia - for example - would be our enemies. Cuba is a paradise compared to those countries and most countries in the world.

Since 1985, we have stated publicly that we will encourage and openly finance dissident and human rights groups in Cuba; this, too, is in our interests. The United States isn&#39;t financing all those groups - only the ones that are best known internationally.

Those dissidents and human rights groups in Cuba - that are nothing but a few people - are only important to the extent that they serve us in a single cause: that of destabilizing Fidel Castro&#39;s regime.


GALLUP POLL: Cubans Support the Revolution (http://www.marxmail.org/facts/cuba_gallup.htm)

Indeed, even the “dissident” movement is highly critical of US policy towards the Cuban people.

Elizardo Sanchez, a prominent “dissident”, has stated:

Unfortunately, American policy impedes the transformation we [the Cuban dissidents] seek. Efforts to pressure and isolate Cuba simply give the leaders a pretext to continue their repression and allow them to divert attention from their failures.

The vast majority of us on the island who oppose the Government believe that a dialogue and a relaxation of tensions between the United States and Cuba would better facilitate a transformation. Unfortunately, the Helms-Burton Act, which among other things mandates sanctions against foreign companies that do business in Cuba, makes it very difficult for the United States to take part in such a dialogue.

The basic responsibility for Cuba&#39;s future rests with the Cubans themselves. We must begin reforms that offer hope to all. But less rigidity on the part of the United States would do a lot to help that change begin.

Now, either refute these claims with objective evidence, or shut the hell up.


what? first of all, since the US is not a totalitarian regime that oppresses it&#39;s own people and gives more rights to foreing citizens than to American citizens, Americans don&#39;t feel a need to distabalize the country, and the few who do , thats exactly it, a few, with "freedom of speech", or are you going to tell me that the KKK doesn&#39;t have freedom of speech?

I am going to skip over the irrelevant bullshit and get straight to the point here.

If America was being consistently threatened by a foreign government that disliked the system in place inside the US, and there was evidence of this attempted undermining of the US government, there would naturally be a crackdown on people who were seen as suspects, based on evidence gathered by intelligence agencies.

Indeed, just look at the “anti-terror” laws passed in the US and even Britain, to “protect” the state from the perceived “terrorist” threat.

It is no surprise that Cuba is hard on so-called “dissidents” who are known, by the admission of US diplomats themselves (see, for example, Wayne Smith), to be backed by the US, in an attempt to overthrow the Cuban government.


do you have the statistics that says which % of the people who attend rallies are in favor?

The burden of proof is on you.

The BBC article states that the attendants were simply there to hear Castro and to attend the rally.

Give me impartial and objective evidence to support your claim that the people who attend such rallies are “forced” to go.

It is all fine and dandy to give me your recollections of Cuba as a nine year old child, but I don’t know who you are, and it is quite obvious that you come with a bias against the Cuban government. Therefore, it is understandable that I take your words with a large pinch of salt.

“The Real Cuba” is not a site that is trustworthy. It has an anti-Castro agenda, and so consequently it is biased and unreliable as evidence of the Cuban nation as it is now.

One thing I will say, however, is that Cuba is a third world nation. Keep this in mind when you put forward your arguments.

However, the health care system, as well as the education system, in Cuba has received much praise from people such as UN Secretary-General, Kofi Annan, and World Bank President, James Wolfensson.

[Cuba] has shown that even a poor country need not leave its people defenceless against some of life&#39;s worst hardships. On the United Nations Human Development Index, which measures education and life expectancy as well as income per head, Cuba consistently ranks above other countries whose per capita product is much higher.

Its efforts for public health are particularly impressive. As was acknowledged last year by The Economist newspaper - a source hardly to be suspected of partiality towards a communist State - "Cuba maintains levels of health care unknown to most poor countries; and, rarer still, does so in the countryside as in the cities". In this area, at least, our hosts [Cuba] have set an example we can all learn from.

-- Kofi Annan

I think Cuba has done - and everybody would acknowledge - a great job on education and health... I have no hesitation in acknowledging that they&#39;ve done a good job, and it doesn&#39;t embarrass me to do it... We just have nothing to do with them in the present sense, and they should be congratulated on what they&#39;ve done.

-- James Wolfensson

Cuba - although one of the poorest countries in Latin America - shows the best results in basic education. And by a long shot. Scoring 350 points (around 90 per cent correct answers), Cuba is 100 points ahead of the regional average. Argentina, Chile and Brazil follow, with scores close to 250 points. The lowest results were in the Dominican Republic and Venezuela.

-- "Learning in Latin America", UNESCO, 2001

[In 1956] Over two-thirds of wages were spent on food. In 1956, a family of 6 persons could spend only 17 cents per person on food. It is not surprising that malnutrition was widespread (60% in rural areas) and that the average weight of the agricultural worker was 16 lbs. below the theoretical average and that his height was less than the Cuban average...

Foreign observers agree on the progress made in lowering the incidence of malnutrition in Cuba. [Citing studies dated in the early 1980&#39;s...] It has been stated that "given the equity imposed by wage policy and the rationing of food, there is no reason to doubt the affirmation of the government that malnutrition in Cuba has fallen from a pre-revolutionary level of 40% to a current level of less than 5%".

-- "The Right to Food", OAS Inter-American Commission on Human Rights, 1983

This is the last post I am to make on the topic, as I do not expect anything constructive, in terms of debate, from you.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

Again, I know many people who have been to Cuba and come back with completely different views. CompanerodeLibertad is one user on this board who has been to Cuba, I believe, and if you ask him (he’s away at the moment) about the views of the Cuban people regarding the Castro government, he would describe it in a way completely different to yours and even Martyr’s.

That is why subjective views count for nothing in this debate.

that&#39;s bullshit, those are "people who have gone to Cuba", meaning not Cubans, so they don&#39;t really know the real sentiment. You obviously don&#39;t understand the fact that Cubans are afraid to talk.


Wikipedia is not a reliable source for issues of a political nature.

and yours are? how about you refute the things in Wikipedia instead of saying it&#39;s "unreliable"?? Your comments on homophobia count for nothing, you obviously didn&#39;t read the source i gave you, try to refute them&#33;



I don&#39;t consider homosexuality to be a phenomenon of degeneration... [I consider] it to be one of the natural aspects and tendencies of human beings which should be respected. I am absolutely opposed to any form of repression, contempt, scorn or discrimination with regard to homosexuals

give me the source where Fidel said that ^^

Gallup Poll, :
conducted in Cuba in 1994 wow talk about outdated, 12 years ago :lol: in 12 years a country can change in a 360 scale.

Agustin Blazquez, a documentarian of Communist Cuba whose recently released "Covering Cuba 3: Elian," which is available through www.CubaCollectibles.com :
What I have learned from sources inside Cuba is that 90 percent of the general population despise the regime. The rest is part of Castro&#39;s privileged ruling elite who, for personal economic and security reasons, are afraid of the consequences inherent in the collapse of the regime. His longevity is not a factor of popular support. It is a factor of his highly repressive totalitarian machinery that controls all aspects of life in Cuba. Since the law forbids freedom of speech and association, the democratic opposition forces in Cuba are unable to carry their message to the rest of the population or outside Cuba without incurring significant risk.Thus there is a generalized lack of confidence that any opposition actions can bring about change. Contributing to the maintenance of the status quo is the lack of support from outside Cuba. The general ignorance of the American public and the rest of the world of the real Cuban situation is due to the rampant misinformation distributed by the left-wing-controlled mainstream news media. It generates insensitivity and a lack of international solidarity for the cause of the liberation of Cuba. Therefore, it is a serious roadblock to freedom.

need more evidence?

Enrique Encinosa, a historian and news editor of WAQI radio in Miami, whose books include "Cuba: The Unfinished Revolution:
If Castro has so much popular support as Ted Turner claims, why doesn&#39;t he allow opposition political parties and free elections? The facts indicate he has no popular support but maintains power based on repression and fear. Over 15,000 Cubans have been executed by firing squads, thousands more have died at sea escaping, tens of
thousands have been guests of his concentration camps and almost 2 million – out of 11 million – have escaped to exile

want more?

Servando Gonzalez, author of "The Secret Fidel Castro: Deconstructing the Symbol" and most recently, "The Nuclear Deception: Nikita Khrushchev and the Cuban Missile Crisis :
Though it is impossible to know the extent of support for Castro – opinion polls in totalitarian countries are pretty unreliable – I don&#39;t think that Cubans in Cuba like Castro. Though it is true that in the very first months of the popular revolution – of which Castro was just one of its many leaders – the majority of the people supported it, as soon as Castro managed to get total control this support began to diminish. Though in the last couple of years the dislike of the Cuban people for Castro is more and more evident, and they express it more openly, for many years they feared repression and disguised their feelings as best as they could. But, in several opportunities, Cubans have expressed their anti-Castro feelings by voting with their feet. This was evidenced when Castro opened the gates in the port of Camarioca in September of 1965 and again during the Mariel boatlift of 1980, when close to 125,000 Cubans precipitously escaped from Castro&#39;s proletarian paradise. I am convinced that if tomorrow Castro would open the gates again, in less than six months no less than half of the Cubans would escape from the island.

There is, however, at least one kernel of truth in Turner&#39;s words. In 44 years of Castro&#39;s tyrannical rule, no major anti-government rebellion has occurred. Save for an initial strong opposition, only a relatively minor incident in the summer of 1994, the so-called Habanazo riots, has been reported. Therefore, even if Cubans don&#39;t like Castro, it seems that they don&#39;t hate the tyrant enough to risk their lives trying to get rid of him.

Contrary to common belief, liberation from Castro&#39;s tyranny is not a difficult thing to accomplish, but is has a high price. To do it, Cubans don&#39;t need freedom of association or civil liberties. They don&#39;t even need guns. They only need to supply their blood. A spontaneous rebellion would force the Castro regime to bring tanks to Havana&#39;s streets and would end in several thousand Cubans massacred by Castro&#39;s army. This would destroy the myth of Castro&#39;s popularity and inflict a mortal blow to the tyranny. Unfortunately, Cubans obviously value life more than freedom, and they are not willing to pay the ultimate price for it.

In his much-quoted dictum, "Give me liberty or give me death," Patrick Henry expressed it brilliantly. People who value life above freedom sooner or later will become slaves. Unfortunately, this seems to be the case of the Cuban people.

wait there is more just for you my wonderful friend Intifada :lol:

Juan Lopez, a political science professor at the University of Illinois and author of the recently released "Democracy Delayed: The Case of Castro&#39;s Cuba." :


Under dictatorships, it is not possible to conduct a reliable public opinion survey to determine what percentage of the population supports the dictatorship. However, there are various indirect measures to assess the degree of support for the Castro government among citizens in the island. These proxies suggest that the support for the Cuban government is very low. Whenever the opportunity to leave Cuba has come up, as in 1980 with the Mariel episode and with the rafters in 1994, there have been endless streams of people wanting to get out. Only force has put an end to the migrations. Indicators of social anomie, like high rates of suicide and alcoholism, repeated spontaneous protests (for example, to complain about poor services and breakdowns in the supply of basic necessities), and small-scale strikes (to demand unpaid wages or for other reasons) are further evidence of discontent.

Then there are the facts that the dictatorship does not want free elections, suppresses free speech and freedom of association and is terrified of the possibility that mass protests could develop. Any government that is confident of enjoying majority support does not oppose free elections. Castro is even afraid of holding a referendum, as the Varela Project asks. It should be clear, for those who want to see, that mass mobilizations carried out by totalitarian regimes to orchestrate a facade of public support are just exercises in mass coercion. Many signs also indicate that there is considerable discontent with the regime among members of the Communist Party, the armed forces and other state institutions, for example, defections abroad, widespread corruption and even expressions of criticisms.

if you have any doubts here is your source: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=31177 (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31177)

February 22, 2003&#33;

thank you come again&#33;