Hiding from IR

[Connolly]

Im just finished che's, "guerrilla warfare". I heard much of the content is obsolete for the modern guerrilla.

One thing that pops to mind is the old tactic of hiding within forests and bushes and the like.

But to the modern guerrilla - in terms of this particular tactic - have they been out done by technologies such as infrared chopper cams and the like?

How then, would the modern guerrilla avoid being detected in rural terrain against a techno power like the US?

What could a guerrilla build to avoid detection from IR overhead spycams?

[dannie]

i'm afraid you can't do much about IR, cops use it to track down illegal cannabisplantation's (the lights give out a lot of heat) down here and i have yet to come across an affordable solution for this problem.

if you hide out in appartments or caves you should be able to use light (heat) reflectingfoil to try and keep the heat inside (wich would cost you a lot of money) but this isn't useable as a guerilla tactic because you have to be on the move alot, wich makes it impossible to do all the time

[Connolly]

But I would have imagined, based on the history of warfare, that somehow, sometime, the opposing force will always come up with a solution to counter.

I too thought about that tin foil thing.

What if they were to make an umbrella of tinfoil?

each guerrilla could carry one, just like a normal size. - mobile and inexpensive!

just the size to cover him/her from over head visibility?

Would something like that do the trick?

[TC]

You have to remember that they can only spend so much money on so many fancy gagets which means that even if some of their helecopters have effective inferred goggles or whatever, most of them don't, many that do aren't working, or they're not properly trained, etc. We're talking about a military that can spend hundreds of millions on stealth fighters but can't outfit all of their troops with armored vests or all of their trucks with armor, that has to ration amunition and buy from other countries, whose troops discard their assult rifles for their enemies superior ones.

The US tries to portray its armed forces as an invincible, technologically supreme star-wars 1984 borg-like monolithic force, but its just propaganda.

If you want to look at an example of an effective guerrilla campaign just look at Iraq. US troops are terrified to leave their bases.

[Delirium]

Originally posted by The [email protected] 16 2006, 03:11 PM
What if they were to make an umbrella of tinfoil?
:lol: You'd have to paint it, because the last thing you want to be in the woods is shiny, tin foil also makes a lot of noise which is impractical if you are trying to go undetected.

You can construct a shelter called a scout pit which is basicly a extremely camoflauged pit in the ground. You literally recreate the layers of soil and ground cover on top of you. This of course would have to be done ahead of time and you would have to be prepared covering you tracks (physically, and scent). This is not really suitable for an army either it would only be practical for one maybe two people. So unless you are experienced in your natural evironment this probably would be out of the question.

It would protect you from IR though.

Any important warfare will be in the cities not the countryside.

[Livetrueordie]

Can't you get an infared light, shine it in their eyes making everything no longer visible...
Like this http://cgi.ebay.com/Infrared-IR-Nightvisio...1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/Infrared-IR-Nightvision-Spotlight-12V-Car-1M-CP-USA_W0QQitemZ7225768375QQcategoryZ40970QQssPageNam eZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

[Connolly]

You'd have to paint it, because the last thing you want to be in the woods is shiny, tin foil also makes a lot of noise which is impractical if you are trying to go undetected.

Good point :lol:


Can't you get an infared light, shine it in their eyes making everything no longer visible...

Good Idea. What would last longer though, chopper fuel, or torch battery :lol:

Not to mention that you wouldnt exactly be hidden. All they need is another chopper without the beam directly shining at them to spot ye.

It would come down to, who has more choppers or flashlamps, flash lamps or choppers :lol:

[bezdomni]

Steal their stuff and use it against them.

Also, people could completely isolate themselves in the rural south or any of the mountain ranges in the US. If you position yourselves right, it would be difficult to locate small guerrilla contingents.

[ahab]

Originally posted by Datura [email protected] 16 2006, 10:34 PM
[quote=Any important warfare will be in the cities not the countryside.
[/quote]
and in that case most IR which is attached to helicopters would be inaffective because of the heat and energy produced by the city, even if deserted a city produces heat by generators, animals ie rats and other rodents, also sewers and such. and if in woods you could start fires to confuse IR, i dunno just a thought

[dannie]

http://www.flirthermography.com/images/camera_images/E65.JPG

the pigs got these nifty little portable infraredcams, pigs suck

[Commie Rat]

if you light a fire i will be a beacon for them to come to you. if you leave it to burn there is a risk that it will casue a forest fire.

[Axel1917]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2006, 09:03 PM
You have to remember that they can only spend so much money on so many fancy gagets which means that even if some of their helecopters have effective inferred goggles or whatever, most of them don't, many that do aren't working, or they're not properly trained, etc. We're talking about a military that can spend hundreds of millions on stealth fighters but can't outfit all of their troops with armored vests or all of their trucks with armor, that has to ration amunition and buy from other countries, whose troops discard their assult rifles for their enemies superior ones.

The US tries to portray its armed forces as an invincible, technologically supreme star-wars 1984 borg-like monolithic force, but its just propaganda.

If you want to look at an example of an effective guerrilla campaign just look at Iraq. US troops are terrified to leave their bases.
I think that this is a very good point.

[Epoche]

How then, would the modern guerrilla avoid being detected in rural terrain against a techno power like the US?


May I ask what your objective is?

Guerrilla activity in the modernized world can use these three techniques to be successful:

Anonymity, bluffing, and distraction (decoy).

Anything you wish to achieve against the forces of technology you mention above must utilize these techniques to complete any objective. Without them it is next to impossible to complete a mission without detection and apprehension.

In other news, I recently came up with an idea on how to rob a bank without even entering the bank. Sounds ridiculous, right? Check this out:

You need three people. A small portable video player which can recieve live feeds, a video recorder which can send live feeds, and two vehicles.

Here's what you do. One person acts as a hostage keeper, one person acts as a hostage, one person drives.

The vehicle will drive up to the bank teller and send her the video player and a note reading (something along the lines of):

"This is a bank robbery. Do not attempt to alert the police. All surrounding streets are being monitored. If a police unit is seen moving inbound to the bank, a hostage will be executed. Observe the video player. Inform the other tellers quietly. Put the drawer money into bags and place the bags at the front door."

The video player will be showing a live feed of the two actors. The hostage will be sitting in a chair while the keeper will have a gun to his/her head. The camera, of course, will be filming it. The teller will not alert the police because he/she believes that you are monitoring the surrounding streets. Of course you aren't...but the teller will not call your bluff at the possible expense of someone's life.

The vehicle which drove up to the window will be safely parked out of the area. The second vehicle will then quickly drive up to the bank entrance and grab the money.

The entire operation rests on the fact that the teller will not alert the police in any way, whether by a phone call or emergency switch (under the desk).

Brilliant, eh?

[Epoche bows before the audience]

[bed_of_nails]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2006, 11:49 AM

How then, would the modern guerrilla avoid being detected in rural terrain against a techno power like the US?


May I ask what your objective is?

Guerrilla activity in the modernized world can use these three techniques to be successful:

Anonymity, bluffing, and distraction (decoy).

Anything you wish to achieve against the forces of technology you mention above must utilize these techniques to complete any objective. Without them it is next to impossible to complete a mission without detection and apprehension.

In other news, I recently came up with an idea on how to rob a bank without even entering the bank. Sounds ridiculous, right? Check this out:

You need three people. A small portable video player which can recieve live feeds, a video recorder which can send live feeds, and two vehicles.

Here's what you do. One person acts as a hostage keeper, one person acts as a hostage, one person drives.

The vehicle will drive up to the bank teller and send her the video player and a note reading (something along the lines of):

"This is a bank robbery. Do not attempt to alert the police. All surrounding streets are being monitored. If a police unit is seen moving inbound to the bank, a hostage will be executed. Observe the video player. Inform the other tellers quietly. Put the drawer money into bags and place the bags at the front door."

The video player will be showing a live feed of the two actors. The hostage will be sitting in a chair while the keeper will have a gun to his/her head. The camera, of course, will be filming it. The teller will not alert the police because he/she believes that you are monitoring the surrounding streets. Of course you aren't...but the teller will not call your bluff at the possible expense of someone's life.

The vehicle which drove up to the window will be safely parked out of the area. The second vehicle will then quickly drive up to the bank entrance and grab the money.

The entire operation rests on the fact that the teller will not alert the police in any way, whether by a phone call or emergency switch (under the desk).

Brilliant, eh?

[Epoche bows before the audience]
Slightly creepy, but good idea.

[Epoche]

Slightly creepy

Hey, nobody is going to rob a bank by giving chocolate candy and a dozen roses to the teller, sir. I'm not shooting for "politically correct" bank robberies. My idea is revolutionary and the most efficient and non-violent way possible.

But I want to make sure that any of you "anarchist" leather and chain clad youngsters (really there is no such thing as "anarchy") who got the balls to do it, check with me first about the details. I didn't give the entire sketch in that post and there is much more you need to know if you are going to try it.

[Delirium]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 03:17 PM
But I want to make sure that any of you "anarchist" leather and chain clad youngsters (really there is no such thing as "anarchy") who got the balls to do it, check with me first about the details. I didn't give the entire sketch in that post and there is much more you need to know if you are going to try it.
Or don't, because that would make you an idiot... planning crimes on an internet message board, seriously. :huh:

[Epoche]

Or don't, because that would make you an idiot... planning crimes on an internet message board, seriously.

Well I'm halfway kidding. I wouldn't ever attempt to rationalize robbing a bank, but neither would I admit to it ever being rationally "wrong."

Other than that, there is no danger in posting such stuff, except of course the bad influence it might have on some people. Now that you know I'm half kidding, don't go do it because you think I have somehow said it was the "right" thing to do.

It is nothing more than creative writing, technically, and it exercises the freedom of speech.

Hey, there's a decent irony. The freedom of speech just might be the thing that proves how dangerous the freedom of speech is.

[Connolly]

i found this little article about hiding from infrared.

according to this article, a fire extinguisher can be used!!



Such smokes do exist. They are very effective, even in pretty low
concentrations they obscure a tank or similar against UV, VIS and
IR detection enough for a missile to miss. In addition, IR-smokes are
more effective than conventional ones in general.

>No refs, other than a physics-textbook. If the smoke is hot, e.g. white
>phosphorus, each individual particle will emit thermal radiation, which
>will tend to mask other thermal sources within and behind the smoke-cloud.

It works only for a very short time. The smoke cools down quickly
(within seconds) and you are back to absorption only. Phosphorus smoke
has a little drawback, too. While it is very effectively screening
in visible wavelengths, it has a completely clear "window" down
in the IR area. If you tune your IR-designator to that "window", the
phosphorus smoke has no effect. Certain additives in the smoke can
block this window, though.

>If smoke can be produced with carefully controlled particle-sizes, in this
>case about 10 microns (where most thermal-imaging systems work) the effect

This approach is used widely today; 10..15 year old technology now. The
smokes are essentially dusts, that are scattered into the air by
pressurized gas or explosive charge. They work great, but
unfortunately, they stay only a short time in the air. Most present
IR-smoke systems in vehicles use dusts.

FYI, there is a very nice, IR-smoke dispenser available nearly
everywhere: fire extinguishers. The powder-extinguishers make up an
excellent IR-smoke, they obscure the target completely against even a
far-IR camera. Blast one into the air and the IR-whatever won't see
through the cloud; el-cheapo and effective.

[Delirium]

It works only for a very short time. The smoke cools down quickly
(within seconds) and you are back to absorption only. Phosphorus smoke
has a little drawback, too. While it is very effectively screening
in visible wavelengths, it has a completely clear "window" down
in the IR area. If you tune your IR-designator to that "window", the
phosphorus smoke has no effect. Certain additives in the smoke can
block this window, though.


This would work in the city when you could get inside a building or in the sewers or somthing but in the countryside there is nowhere to go.

Not to mention white phosphorus will burninate you like some kind of horrible fog machine accident!

[bunk]

I think wet towels may work. I seem to remember reading that they covered the alleyways in Fallujah with wet towels between the roofs to protect from satellite.

[Maximicus]

.

[silentprotest]

The only thing I can think of to avoid IR is something that will produce enough random heat signatures that it would confuse someone.
Fireworks and/or flares would probably do this, though you would probably have to make some sort of bomb out of it to scatter the IR signal recieved. I also read somewhere that if you scatter magnetic magnesium strips into the air it will confuse IR equipment. The best way to test this though would be to get yourself an IR device and test it out yourself.
The other option against a helicopter would be using some kind of EMP weapon which you can make from a microwave, though most likely you would need this setup at a position which you could retreat to to use it and then abandon as ground forces arrive. Here (http://www.eio.com/public/inductor/0024.html) is a tutorial to build 3 types of EMP weapon, though please for the love of God be careful as you will be using high volumes of electricity.