Trotskyist participation in elections

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

Hello,

I have a meeting in four or five hours in which i am attempting to bring up why Trotskyist participation in elections is fruitless and contradictory.

The group i am a member of i joined before knowing much about the alternatives to trotskyism, but i have made friends and don't want to give up on them.

There will be local elections near where i live in a few months. I think they are standing candidates for councilors, and i want to argue a strong case for not doing that.

I want to propose doing an anonymous flyer campaign telling people not to vote, and the reasons why.

It anonymous so we don't have to pay fines because putting flyer's up is illegal.

So, what should i say?

I'm talking more about the theory that can be used against Trotskyist arguments to stand.

ps. if posted this in the theory forum because its about Trotskyist theory with regards to participation in bourgeois elections. but feel free to move it to another forum if its more appropriate

[xprol]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 03:29 PM
"Hello,

I have a meeting in four or five hours in which i am attempting to bring up why Trotskyist participation in elections is fruitless and contradictory.

The group i am a member of i joined before knowing much about the alternatives to trotskyism, but i have made friends and don't want to give up on them.

There will be local elections near where i live in a few months. I think they are standing candidates for councilors, and i want to argue a strong case for not doing that.

I want to propose doing an anonymous flyer campaign telling people not to vote, and the reasons why.

It anonymous so we don't have to pay fines because putting flyer's up is illegal.

So, what should i say?

I'm talking more about the theory that can be used against Trotskyist arguments to stand.

ps. if posted this in the theory forum because its about Trotskyist theory with regards to participation in bourgeois elections. but feel free to move it to another forum if its more appropriate"

I think the main question you should be concerned about is not whether to stand or not or weather to put out and anonymous leaflet or not but WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO SAY IN AN ELECTION (WHETHER YOU SAND OR NOT) AND WHAT IS YOUR LEAFLET GOING TO SAY.

What everyone will always welcome is your best understanding of the world. US and British imperialism are on a war drive because of the economic crisis of over production. Not overproduction of goods for peoples needs but overproduction of capital. This capital has to be destroyed in war. This affects everything and everybody without exception. If you aren't telling people this, what are you telling them? If you (your group) aren't explaining the need to understand this and to build a revolutionary movement to end this crisis ridden warmongering system, what are you telling them? Tactics are endlessly flexible, but if you have no REVOLUTIONARY THEORY you might as well say at home and watch the box. Go and ask the group to discuss what REVOLUTIONARY understanding they are going to introduce into the election parliamentary/council circus. You will keep your friends if you get better at discussing THE HIGHEST POINT OF YOUR UNDERSTANDING, not some reformist watered down version. Best wishes.


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[bloody_capitalist_sham]

Thanks for the response!

Yeah i planned on doing fliers that explain why voting doesn't get anything done, how the system is not really a democracy, how people have no influence because liberal democracy is business centric.

I didn't think about going for the imperialist angle, that might be good to highlight also given how many people oppose it, even if they are not vocal about it.

I have talked to the organizer and we are going to talk about revolutionary theory tonight hopefully, i really hope i can win them over and we can move away from the participatory method.

[YKTMX]

Why do you object to particpating in elections, comrade?

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

Why do you object to particpating in elections, comrade?

Well i think the main reasons are that communists dont think liberal democracy is actually a real democracy. And so it does not seem like a good idea to participate and then say it is shit.

Secondly, if in the remote chance a communist party was voted in, or even members were voted into parliament everything that they would do would be reformist, yeah? and meaning there not real marxists.

[YKTMX]

Well i think the main reasons are that communists dont think liberal democracy is actually a real democracy. And so it does not seem like a good idea to participate and then say it is shit.


Yes, but comrade, Marxists are not only concerned with dogma. Although we do like a bit of it now and again!

“The sect sees the justification for its existence and its point of hono ur not in what it has in common with the class movement but in the particular shibboleth which distinguishes it from the movement.” (The emphasis is Marx’s own.)


That is from Marx.

What he's saying is that we have to engage with the class movment as it exists, and, today, unfortunately perhaps, a large section of that is electoral.

Of course we should always emphasise where the real power lies in society - but that doesn't mean we "cut ourselves off" in the meantime.

The only way we're ever going to win people to Marxism is by engaging with them.


Secondly, if in the remote chance a communist party was voted in, or even members were voted into parliament everything that they would do would be reformist, yeah? and meaning there not real marxists.

The goal is not be 'elected' into power, comrade. We don't believe 'power' lies in parliament. The goal is to raise class consciousness by putting out class politics to as wide a section of society as possible. And elections are a big, but not the only, part of that struggle.

:)

[xprol]

As I said, tactics are endlessly flexible and we can stand on any shit heap to shout and council/parliamentary democratic elections are certainly a shit heap and the workers knows it. They don't need a hand book to explain. But their is always a danger with elections because it is easy to be drawn into the circus. Try it, make your own experience by all means, but it really is not the most important stuff to get to bothered about. Getting the best understanding of the world that you can and explaining that and getting a better grasp and explaining that etc etc, is by far the best 'practice'. Do it with anyone who will give you a hearing and don't put up any Chinese walls between people in 'left' groups and others. Theory can be and is spayed on walls, put on leaflets,placards,banners,talked about,argued about in kitchens, pubs, buses, anywhere get a chance. And listen!

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

I see little harm in voting, actually, because it can make a difference in a sense. It has limitations, of course, but the difference between two parties can cause individual people to have a better life. Will voting change the system - no. Will giving a poor person in Africa money change the system there - no. Regardless, there is little harm in doing so.

Personally, I support voting for a leftist party, in some cases, if only to make the left look more active to the proletariat who follow the electoral system. For instance, if I voted, I would vote NDP in Canada (I object to the centralization of our communist parties). If I was from the United States, I would vote for the Democrats even though I despise the party. If the revolution isn't coming now, there is no reason not to help people. I refuse to let the proletariat suffer from the electoral system until they get fed up - I will use the system until a revolution comes.

Rethinking this, I am not sure whether voting is justified at all. In a sense, voting makes a difference in people's lives, but it does not eliminate the problem - class structure. Like religion, it gives people temporary relief and makes whatever problems exist continue. I am quite uncertain, and I would be interested in hearing more arguments from both sides.

[xprol]

Originally posted by Dooga Aetrus [email protected] 15 2006, 12:26 AM
I see little harm in voting, actually, because it can make a difference in a sense. It has limitations, of course, but the difference between two parties can cause individual people to have a better life. Will voting change the system - no. Will giving a poor person in Africa money change the system there - no. Regardless, there is little harm in doing so.

Personally, I support voting for a leftist party, in some cases, if only to make the left look more active to the proletariat who follow the electoral system. For instance, if I voted, I would vote NDP in Canada (I object to the centralization of our communist parties). If I was from the United States, I would vote for the Democrats even though I despise the party. If the revolution isn't coming now, there is no reason not to help people. I refuse to let the proletariat suffer from the electoral system until they get fed up - I will use the system until a revolution comes.

Rethinking this, I am not sure whether voting is justified at all. In a sense, voting makes a difference in people's lives, but it does not eliminate the problem - class structure. Like religion, it gives people temporary relief and makes whatever problems exist continue. I am quite uncertain, and I would be interested in hearing more arguments from both sides.
The parliamentary electoral racket was brilliantly evolved by the 'revolutionary' capitalist class in its fight against feudalism. It creates the impression that voting can "make a difference" as you say. If you want to vote, go ahead but it wont make a difference as long as the capitalists "as a class" hold all the real economic, political, propaganda, and police/military power. State power.

I hope you don't mind me saying but I think you are starting with the wrong question. What would the capitalists most like you and the rest of the proletariat to do? When you answer that, do the opposite, because every kind of defeat, setback or embarrassment for their foul exploiting system is a step closer to the revolutionary liberation of all workers.

But its not sufficient to simply contradict them, it is vital to develop our independence from them and developing our own all-round revolutionary theory about everything. That they definitely don't want us to do. I'm confident that the best antidote to the parliamentary racket is develop the best understanding of the class system and explaining it.

The US $ economic crisis is the revolutionary driving force of all war and class struggle on earth. It is far more important to understand that rather than the circus tricks of the various reformist parties posturing as "friends of the people".