Capitalism [Archive]

Eoin Dubh

13th March 2006, 18:15

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 05:49 PM
Right, so if someone walked up to you and offered you millions of dollars, you'd turn him down.
No I wouldnt turn them down!

Are you crazy?

Of course I would take it!!!

Then.................................he he he

I would set it all on fire! ^_^

I would light up the night sky and watch the Cappie scream, moan and cry as the fiscal feces turned into exactly what it is in the first place....Nothing!

I know you don't believe me, but I am one serious S.O.B.
I have burned money plenty of times before to prove a point and I would gleefully remove millions of dollars from circulation.

Oh but you counteract by saying " you could feed the hungry--some socialist you are Eoin Dubh".
A ha Cappie...You are wrong again! Why should the hungry have to pay for food at all?
Money exists only in your head, it is a barrier to human progress.

I would burn it..........all of it.

I would.

:hammer:

Zephir

13th March 2006, 18:18

At the risk of sounding slightly capitalisitic, I really don't think you can accomplish anything burning money at the current point. Once we no longer need money to manipulate the capitalists into aiding out cause, then it can be burnt.

Then again, that's my opinion.

I have no qualms about using their tools against them. Once they have outlived their usefulness, I also have no qualms about destroying said tools.

Ã‘Ã³ẊÃ®Ã¶ŉ

13th March 2006, 18:20

Hey look, a hardcore troll.

Eoin Dubh

13th March 2006, 18:33

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 06:21 PM
At the risk of sounding slightly capitalisitic, I really don't think you can accomplish anything burning money at the current point. Once we no longer need money to manipulate the capitalists into aiding out cause, then it can be burnt.

Then again, that's my opinion.

I have no qualms about using their tools against them. Once they have outlived their usefulness, I also have no qualms about destroying said tools.
Zephir, if you are politically active, give this a try sometime: At a demonstration, preferably an anti globalization/anti corporate one or even more appropriately on May 1 (Our day! :) )
Get a damn good "soundbite" ( thats what media types call a well worded clip which conveys a big idea in a short sentence) in your head, pull out a fiver $$$ and yer Zippo lighter, stand about 5- 10 feet away from the bored news people and for the low, low price of 5$, puchase some air time on the corporate media- a commercial for the revolution if you will.
Seriously, I do this from time to time and it has the effect of a mental car bomb on bystanders, leftist and Cappie alike.
Burn it while silently grinning...pause for dramatic effect...let them get their shock and surprise out of their system then look right at the person sitting on the couch watching you on tv and say your peice.
It is great propaganda for 5$ well spent! ;)

Zephir

13th March 2006, 18:34

Not usually too politically active, but sounds fun. If I get the chance, I'll give it a go.

HARDCORECAPITALIST

13th March 2006, 19:24

So let's get this straight, you hate money, but you'd use it to advance your agenda against money?!?!

redstar2000

13th March 2006, 22:31

One of the most amusing demonstrations in left history took place in the 60s at the New York Stock Exchange. Abbe Hoffman and a few of his associates went to the visitor's gallery at the Exchange...where people then could actually look down on the frantic activity on the trading floor.

At a signal from Hoffman, they all removed bundles of bills that they had concealed and started dropping the loose bills on the Exchange floor...I assume they were small bills but there were lots of them.

It totally disrupted trading on the floor as all those "high fliers" stopped trading stocks and madly scrambled around trying to pick up the loose bills before anyone else could. :lol:

It wouldn't work now as stock trading is all computerized...but it must have been a truly hilarious sight to see.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

Zingu

13th March 2006, 22:35

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 10:34 PM

It totally disrupted trading on the floor as all those "high fliers" stopped trading stocks and madly scrambled around trying to pick up the loose bills before anyone else could. :lol:
Thats really sad. :(

Nothing Human Is Alien

13th March 2006, 22:38

Yeah that and the fact that the visitors gallery is now enclosed with glass.

violencia.Proletariat

13th March 2006, 22:48

I wonder how much money that flag on the stock exchange was. It's the biggest flag I've ever seen in my life.

Oh-Dae-Su

13th March 2006, 23:29

LMAO!! hehehe dude, did you really have to put that big ass picture of hundreds of dollars , we get you like money but damn hahaha thats crazy, im sure that pissed a couple of lefties in here :lol:

anyways, like everything in life, capitalism isn't a bed of roses. Capitalism is the best system in making people rich, and even better with productivity, all this because it harvests one of the universal human qualities: "greed"; the down side of capitalism is of course that it is not good with distribution. Of course some 3rd world countries that try out capitalism end up fucking up, mainly because they have a corrupt government, which fucks up even more the distribution of wealth. But developed industrialized countries with democratic strong governments etc. are able to control more the distribution of wealth but ultimately can't stop it completly, that is why even though America is the strongest country in the world economically, politically, and militarilly there are homeless in the streets. This is where the leftists come in, and of course its the only thing they can come up to bash at capitalism, the uneaven distribution. Rightly so, but the leftists solutions don't help either because they can't be realized. Either they can be realized by oppression from government, or in some novel because if not it remains what it is , utopia.

the fact is economics, just like everything in life as well is a win loose situation. Competition, you can't take it away no matter what. Thats where the impossible hits leftists in the face. Also many homeless here in America believe it or not, are like that because they chose to, many are drug adicts etc. If you can't get a job here, at least as toilet cleaners is because you don't want to i can tell you that much.

Zephir

13th March 2006, 23:55

Oh, I wouldn't say that it's impossible. It's just a relatively unrefined concept as of yet. There's a link in my sig where something is being worked upon, if anyone cares to take a look.

Anyway, you're incorrectly assuming that all leftists wish to completely strangle competition. I, for one, recognise it as a major driving force toward advancement. Something that should be kept.

You're right, of course. Distribution problems are my main qualm with capitalism. It's because of those distribution problems that all other capitalistic problems arise, though, so it's a fair thing to be livid about.

TomRK1089

14th March 2006, 00:03

Ah, Zeph, you beat me to this thread.

As he's already stated, competition is useful to motivate people--it's something most people are hard-wired for, it seems. (Interesting thought--does that tie into the alleged 'human nature of greed?' But that's a different topic.)

But as for distribution, that sucks. Capitalism simply can't adjust for catastrophic failure in a market. Just look at the Dust Bowl in the twenties. Plenty of people who were farmers, wanted to work, and couldn't. And the capitalist system couldn't do a damn thing to help them.

As for the 'the poor are poor because of their decisions...' Well, some, perhaps, landed in their situation because of stupid mistakes. But not all. It's a bit unfair to lump them all together. That's the standard response I get from right-wingers and cappies, is that the poor are all incompetent morons. To which I say there are plenty of incompetent moronic cappies, too. ;)

Zephir

14th March 2006, 00:06

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 12:06 AM
As for the 'the poor are poor because of their decisions...' Well, some, perhaps, landed in their situation because of stupid mistakes. But not all. It's a bit unfair to lump them all together. That's the standard response I get from right-wingers and cappies, is that the poor are all incompetent morons. To which I say there are plenty of incompetent moronic cappies, too. ;)
Most of them in high positions. Like president.

LSD

14th March 2006, 00:14

Doesn't it look good?

Not really. American money is pretty fucking boring, actually.

You'd think that the "bastion of capitalism" could come up with something more exciting. If you're going to be greedy sods, at least do it with some style!

I mean, really, black and white? Haven't you yanks ever heard of colour???

14th March 2006, 00:20

I mean, really, black and white? Haven't you yanks ever heard of colour???

Hey, there's some green in there!

cyu

14th March 2006, 00:57

Capitalism is the best system in making people rich

If there was a great way of creating wealth, but it required enslaving the majority of the population, would you support it? If it just involved enslaving one person, would you support it?

Capitalism can do some amazing and useless things. The main thing about capitalism is that it doesn't know how to set its priorities straight. Because of the way the market economy works when there's a large gap between rich and poor, you have a lot of people building giant mansions for the wealthy while nobody is bothering delivering food or health care to those who have little spending power.

Sure some people might be better off if a disproportionate percentage of the population were working only to serve their needs, but if you want the general population to be better off, those serving only the wealthy will have to do change their target customers to the average person.

Oh-Dae-Su

14th March 2006, 01:42

alright im glad we understood eachother. For one, no , i understand some of you leftists of course understand the concepts of human behavior, and that competition is an every day thing. Also i just don't buy the belief that people are going to want to "work together happily ever after, and get everything for free". Listen, hehe i can't stress it more, get off that wagon and step into reality.

Another thing, distribution is not such a big big problem in the major capitalist countries, but of course it is the ONLY problem in 3rd world countries, which is where we have to focus. Like i said, these countries are like this 1st of all not really because of capitalism (although yeah of course it is one of the causes), but mainly because of their respective governments that don't get anything done and instead become the fucking oligarchy and starve the people to death. Capitalism should not be tried in a 3rd world country, without restrictions or something.

Of course not ALL the poor are like this because they chose to, i mean this is a ridiculous thing to say, but many i can tell you that are like that because they chose to, but what im trying to say is that you CANNOT!! you CANNOT!! tell me you can't get a job, thats just as ridiculous, because like i said at least cleaning toilets in a McDonald's, there are at least 300 job listings every day in the newspapers. So if the will is not there, well nothing in life comes free, if they were under Stalin, they would be getting many things for free, but without a will to "better" themselves, many people don't have motivation, and you can end homeless, thats just how capitalism is, capitalism is like a challenge, if your up to it you can make it, if you don't have motivation or a will than sorry, life is not fair.

Latsly, im willing to say, that if you take all American citizens and do a research as to whom are the homeless, i can tell you that it would be a smaller precentage than if you did of all immigrants. Have to understand that immigration is a big problem for us. Although if it wasn't for Mexican immigrants for example, hehehe American wouldn't even be functioning right now, you know how many Mexicans cross the border "legally" each day? 1 million!!

Zephir

14th March 2006, 02:32

Oh wow, that totally changed my outlook! By your ignorance of various people's posts, you've totally made a believer out of me![/sarcasm]

That said, to address the one thing you brought up that wasn't already addressed before you posted that... Yeah, immigration is a problem. Wouldn't be a problem, of course, under a socialistic/capitalistic system, but hey, since all problems seen with capitalism are distribution problems, that must be one in and of itself, eh?

...

Well, kinda is. Funny, that.

Don't Change Your Name

14th March 2006, 03:03

Originally posted by Oh-Dae-[email protected] 13 2006, 10:45 PM
you know how many Mexicans cross the border "legally" each day? 1 million!!
This means that 365 million Mexicans get into the US each year...at this rate, about 367000000 Mexicans "crossed the border "legally"" over the last ten years.

?

Oh-Dae-Su

14th March 2006, 03:31

oops my bad hahaha just realized that was a little far off hehehe, i think its a year not sure, all i know is that its a whoooooooole lot of them, well practically all of agricultural work is done by Mexicans.

Connolly

14th March 2006, 16:11

I wouldnt bother arguing statistics and crap - itll just end up jibbering about whou killed more people, "communism" or capitalism!

Also i just don't buy the belief that people are going to want to "work together happily ever after, and get everything for free". Listen, hehe i can't stress it more, get off that wagon and step into reality.

I dont know how many times iv blabbled about this -_-

How we work together - how we act - how we think - are all defined by our material conditions.

Our material conditions (in terms of society), are defined by our economic mode of production.

greed and consumerism and what not!, are an economic function.

If the mode of production does not need us to be greedy or consumerist - we wont be!

The rest of your post isnt worth responding to. :lol:

And I get the feeling your a tad bit racist?

Connolly

14th March 2006, 16:16

Also, if you arnt a materialist,

GO PRAY TO YOUR FANTASY GOD. (which is most probable)

well see whos based in reality then

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh-Dae-Su

14th March 2006, 17:12

And I get the feeling your a tad bit racist?

HUH? racist? so im racist now too? what else? fascist? :lol: i dont really know where you get your ideas from, but please if you don't even know me stop defining me by any terms.

Also, if you arnt a materialist,

GO PRAY TO YOUR FANTASY GOD. (which is most probable)

well see whos based in reality then

yet again :blink: !!!? HUH? ooooook? yeah ill go pray to my fantasy god :blink: lmao whatever you say wacko

Connolly

14th March 2006, 17:22

Definition of over reaction:

HUH? racist? so im racist now too? what else? fascist? i dont really know where you get your ideas from, but please if you don't even know me stop defining me by any terms.

yeah ill go pray to my fantasy god

God believer? Y/N

Oh-Dae-Su

14th March 2006, 17:31

Why do you think im a racist? if you accuse people of something, then you have to defend yourself, if not than why the fuck do you say, "i think your racist". Just shut up if your trying to get people warned, i already have some idiots like NoXion on back of me who don't like me and look for any excuse to warn me so just shut up dude.

and do i believe in God, Y/N . I dont fucking believe in God! NO!! at least not the God portrayed in every human religion, but to me God is the universe, so yes in that sense i do believe in "GOD" than.

Connolly

14th March 2006, 17:39

"i think your racist".

If you are going to quote me - do it with a little more precision.

note the word "feeling" - something indefinite.

Not Racist? - I retract my comment.

at least not the God portrayed in every human religion, but to me God is the universe, so yes in that sense i do believe in "GOD"

Ah Ha!!!!

You believe in something not grounded in measurable reality?

and you said

get off that wagon and step into reality.

Oh-Dae-Su

14th March 2006, 18:46

in either case, why would you "feel" im racist? what is the solid background for you feeling this way? because of what i said about Mexicans working in this country? :blink: how is that racist, its the truth, mexicans are the driving force of this country's agricultural sector, and by the way im hispanic dude, so i don't understand how im racist at all.

You believe in something not grounded in measurable reality?

and you said

what is reality to you? everything you could see ? or touch? or anything you could measure? so i guess atoms are not real? Its obviously fucking imposible to "measure" the universe, but for example our galaxy is measurable, ever heard of "light years"? how is this not a reality? the universe is real mate! :D

anyways, what about you? do you believe in GOD? y/n? anyways this is a very complex question, god doesn't exist, the gods of our mental imagination, its all bullshit, but god in the context of the word, is something out of our control, out of our "power" or "reach" if you want to call it, and thus it is superior to us, so in that sense that is why i believe nature/the universe is god.

Connolly

14th March 2006, 19:05

if you want to call it, and thus it is superior to us, so in that sense that is why i believe nature/the universe is god.

God

1. (a) A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.

(b)The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.

2 A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.

3 An image of a supernatural being; an idol.

4 One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed: Money was their god.

5 A very handsome man.

6 A powerful ruler or despot.

Oh-Dae-Su

14th March 2006, 19:14

:lol: ^^^^

and who made these defenitions again? ahh yes HUMANS! do you believe or trust everything because it is written?

listen, you have to make your own interpretation of things, god to me is nothing more than the universe nature, everything that surrounds us, i dont have to "worship" him at all? i mean wtf! this is just things created by man. You don't have to do anything, its just what i think it is, nature is not a "handsome" man? wtf, listen it is an abstract thing, but i believe that we as humans are one and the same with nature and the universe. We are just "intelligent" (or so we think) organisms. I say "or so we think", because just like Homoerechtus couldn't understand things that we understand, maybe there is another organism with a bigger brain than Humans and can comprehend more things than us about our universe.

Connolly

14th March 2006, 19:28

and who made these defenitions again? ahh yes HUMANS! do you believe or trust everything because it is written?

Sorry, I couldnt make heads or tales of what you said there. You see, the word "defenitions" means "computer" to me, and the word "again" means "falling".

You see the complications in communication if we dont standardise words?

We all cant make what we want of each word, otherwise WTF!!!

This is why definitions exist, to maintain a standard of communication within a language.

So! use the definition or study the other standardised words with which you can communicate to others your beliefs!

Otherwise - make your own word up!

god to me is nothing more than the universe nature, everything that surrounds us, i dont have to "worship" him at all? i mean wtf! this is just things created by man. You don't have to do anything, its just what i think it is, nature is not a "handsome" man? wtf, listen it is an abstract thing, but i believe that we as humans are one and the same with nature and the universe. We are just "intelligent" (or so we think) organisms. I say "or so we think", because just like Homoerechtus couldn't understand things that we understand, maybe there is another organism with a bigger brain than Humans and can comprehend more things than us about our universe.

So, briefly - do you believe in anything supernatural, spiritual - any sorts of hidden energy etc etc.???

Tungsten

14th March 2006, 20:00

The RedBanner

I dont know how many times iv blabbled about this -_-

How we work together - how we act - how we think - are all defined by our material conditions.
Can you please explain, complete with examples taken from reality, how these things you mention are defined by material conditions?

Connolly

14th March 2006, 20:21

Can you please explain, complete with examples taken from reality, how these things you mention are defined by material conditions?

[the easiest way to put it]

What are you doing now?

Most probable answer: Sitting on a chair in my bedroom.

Can you put yourself in a situation right now, were you believe yourself to be falling towards the ground [as if to fall from a cliff], were, your heartbeat increases, you begin screaming, waving your hands, life flashing before your eyes etc etc etc.....?

Logical answer: NO

What has changed? but only your material conditions

So, your actions - your thoughts - are dictated by your surroundings.

Unless you believe in "mind over matter", and that you actually can put yourself in that situation :lol: :lol:

Xanthus

14th March 2006, 21:43

Granted, this topic has decended into random drivel, but to get back to the original topic, I'm quite surprised at the reactions here.

Burn it? Are you kidding?

If someone gave me a million dollars, I'd start by purchasing a printing press, an office to store it in, and several office computers. Then of course, I'd fund the living expenses of several dedicated revolutionaries so they would be able to spend their working hours in that office at those computers, or anywhere on the street where they are most needed furthering the goal of revolution instead of toiling away to add to the fortune of a capitalist out of the necessity of putting food on the table.

Burn it? What a waste. We may be overthrowing capitalism, but we need to do it from within capitalism, and money is very much needed for that goal.

Tungsten

14th March 2006, 21:56

The RedBanner

[the easiest way to put it]

What are you doing now?

Most probable answer: Sitting on a chair in my bedroom.
I can assure you that I'm not in your bedroom.

Can you put yourself in a situation right now, were you believe yourself to be falling towards the ground [as if to fall from a cliff], were, your heartbeat increases, you begin screaming, waving your hands, life flashing before your eyes etc etc etc.....?
Of course I can put myself in the stituation. I can go out now, find a cliff and jump off it.

I know what you're implying, though- you think because we can't just flap our arms and wish ourselves to fly of into the blue yonder, you think we're all mindless determinist puppets, devoid of consciousness. Ever heard of compatibilism?

Connolly

14th March 2006, 23:48

I can assure you that I'm not in your bedroom.

:lol: :lol: Sorry about that comrade!!

What a blunder - Im half asleep (I am actually at home now, about 40miles away from were I wrote that)

I even made a mess of this
. (in the example, your material conditions wouldnt have atually changed at all)

[quote]What has changed? but only your material conditions

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course I can put myself in the stituation.

While remaining under your present material conditions? (which would be at your computer)

I know what you're implying, though- you think because we can't just flap our arms and wish ourselves to fly of into the blue yonder, you think we're all mindless determinist puppets, devoid of consciousness. Ever heard of compatibilism?

Glad you could use your imagination to decode the mess I made above.

Its a thin line to walk before going totaly determinist. But, to a certain extent - yes, our actions are determined.

We act within the limits of what we are allowed to do!
What our material conditions allow us to do.

If this were not the case, well, we could pretty much do anything, put our hands through solid walls, skip from sitting down to jet skiiing in an instant of thought!!!

The material reality is, we act and think based on what our senses tell us about the material external world.

Not just that, we are limited by our own material construction, our mind, our physical body.

I suppose the complete opposite is solipsism, and surely.............

Im gong to loose consciousness in about five minuites due to a lack of sleep.
Ill correct any errors (if any) tomorrow......................ZZZZzzzzz

Tungsten

15th March 2006, 00:31

While remaining under your present material conditions? (which would be at your computer)
I can't do it while at my computer, so I'm not capable of doing it ever? Am I not capable of movement ? What a ridiculous notion- and a ridiculous anology.

Connolly

15th March 2006, 15:19

What a ridiculous notion- and a ridiculous anology.

The only thing thats ridiculous is your avoidance of the main concept at hand, either purposely or through complete ignorance.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To explain what I am getting across - let me bring up a new scenario.

"Joe Bloggs" has been imprisoned and put in some impenetrable isolation cell for the rest of his life, chained wrist down. There is no chance this guy will escape (ok!).

[again I ask the same question]

Can "joe" put himself, under his present material circumstances, in a situation were he believes and acts like he is falling in mid air towards the ground, with all the bodily functions associated with such a circumstance - increased heart beat, life flashing before his eyes, hand waving, screaming and so on..... - ??
And, infact, if he is god like to be able to do this - can he suffer the injuries when he eventually hits the "imaginary ground"?

Ill answer this question for you, infact you have already answered it in the following quote.

I can't do it while at my computer

Now I ask.

Why can you, and "Joe Bloggs" not do this under your present conditions?

Suppose hypothetically, I could "teleport" Joe from his cell - were he senses the ground below his feet, senses he is not moving at any velocity, senses things are not moving past his eyes, senses there is no air resistance etc etc etc..............to a position in mid air, 5000 ft above ground - instantaneously, with out him knowing before hand what I was about to do.

When he is teleported - what would you expect to happen?

Obviously, he will no longer sense the ground that was supportying his feet, he will begin to feel his velocity increase, he will feel the air resistance - and if he gets close enough, he will see the scenery move by his eyes.

He will begin to react based on his senses, he would begin to behave in the manner I asked in the question!!!

The only thing that has changed once teleported - is his material surroundings!!!!

So, Joe, begins to act in accordance with what his senses now tell him about his new material surroundings. And he acts in relation to them.

His thoughts have been changed, his actions have been changed.

Understand it now?

I can give infinite examples of this in daily life - where people, born, or placed into certain circumstances will act accordingly.

Quick example from the top of my head - you are interacting with the computer on front of you

Why? - because its there.

If you were born 400 years ago - you wouldnt have been doing what your doing now. You are interacting with your material circumstances!!!!!

Dyst

15th March 2006, 16:27

Well of course we are reacting to the surroundings, the "material circumstances" as you call them.

The point is that everybody reacts to them differently.

Can "joe" put himself, under his present material circumstances, in a situation were he believes and acts like he is falling in mid air towards the ground, with all the bodily functions associated with such a circumstance - increased heart beat, life flashing before his eyes, hand waving, screaming and so on..... - ??
And, infact, if he is god like to be able to do this - can he suffer the injuries when he eventually hits the "imaginary ground"?

Well, I would think that he could "position" himself like that, if you mean mentally. Similar things have for example happened to me, asleep.

However I do of course not suffer damage upon "landing".

AspirinE

15th March 2006, 16:45

Money makes one person happy and another person miserable, not to mention that it also take lives(cause its a materialistic obsession).

With money people buy not happiness, but social aceptance, for a less fortunate person this aceptance comes at higher price

Connolly

15th March 2006, 17:32

Well of course we are reacting to the surroundings, the "material circumstances" as you call them.

The point is that everybody reacts to them differently.

I am not disputing this at all.

And it is not the point.

The point is, our actions and thoughts are defined by our material conditions, material construction (mentally and physically), and our material expierences.

Well, I would think that he could "position" himself like that, if you mean mentally. Similar things have for example happened to me, asleep.

How ridiculous. Im talking about MATERIAL REALITY.

Even still, your dreams are defined by your material experiences.

We could all dream of being rich, having a supercar or huge home.

If these never existed - would we be capable of just coming up with these notions from nothing?

Dont misinterpret what im saying here, I can picture/imagine an extension on my house even if one has never been built - but I need some material experience first to build upon to create this Image.

Dreams are irrelevent to this discussion, whats relevent is the fact that given a particular set of material circumstances, we would act and think in accordance with them.

Money makes one person happy and another person miserable, not to mention that it also take lives(cause its a materialistic obsession).

With money people buy not happiness, but social aceptance, for a less fortunate person this aceptance comes at higher price

This started by me saying that the way we work together, act and think are defined by our material conditions - and that these material conditions are defined by the mode of production.

Just look at some remote primitive societies on this planet, who's way of living is disapearing as we speak, such as those in Brazil, Papa New guinea, Australia and India.

Many still hunt for food. Many havnt been touched [much] by the capitalist system, or feudal.

How they relate, and organise themselves around one another is completely different to how we do.

Whats acceptable to them is not to us.

Their actions are defined by their economic system - how they work together to hunt, how they help build each others homes, look after each others children etc etc.

If this ridiculous idea of people wanting more and being greedy was an issue - their form of society would have collapsed tens of thousands of years ago.

And they havnt - and the only reason they are now, is that new technology, new systems of production, new ideas are reaching them - changing their actions and thoughts within a given set of material circumstances, tearing their societies apart.

And im sorry, if you cannot understand this materialist conception - how the hell can communism be possible any further than these IDEALIST shithole ideas of how people wont wont to do this, an people are so faithful rubbish - its bordering on the religious.

The fact of the matter is, this argument of greed can be crushed using the basis of Marxism....materialism.

Tungsten

15th March 2006, 21:20

The RedBanner

I am not disputing this at all.
Yes you are.

The point is, our actions and thoughts are defined by our material conditions, material construction (mentally and physically), and our material expierences.
Which means you are disputing it. If what you said was true, all rich people- without exception- would desire one system while all the poor - without exception- would desire another. The fact that they don't proves you wrong.

Dyst

15th March 2006, 21:34

I am not disputing this at all.

And it is not the point.

The point is, our actions and thoughts are defined by our material conditions, material construction (mentally and physically), and our material expierences.

Behavior is defined by material conditions, but on a personal level, we all act differently based on our experiences with material conditions.

It's probably just me, but I fail to see whatever point you are trying to make with the inability to position yourself, physically (that was what you said in your last post), at two places at once.

The fact is, I mentally could position myself, to the degree that I actually thought I was there, anywhere I could think of, using for example hypnosis.

But this is related to capitalism, how?

Eoin Dubh

16th March 2006, 06:00

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 09:46 PM

Burn it? Are you kidding?

Burn it? What a waste. We may be overthrowing capitalism, but we need to do it from within capitalism, and money is very much needed for that goal.
Money does not exist.
It's not real.

People think it is real, and yeah, it is as real as "Monopoly" money.

Think it through.

Believing in the myth supports the chains which bind.

red team

16th March 2006, 07:00

Money is a medium for the exchange of debts. But debts to what? In the end it's a debt to someone's greed and desire. It measures nothing and it quantifies nothing. So it's as real as that.

Connolly

16th March 2006, 13:49

Yes you are.

Please note the following lines I wrote in my last post.........

"our actions and thoughts are defined by our material conditions, material construction (mentally and physically), and our material expierences."

This is to say, we are "creatures" made of matter. Unless our material structure is exactly the same, Unless our material experiences are exacltly the same - all of which are impossible - then we wouldnt act the same.

Take this scenario - If I were to set off a bang in a field of crows, you can be pretty sure they would all get a fright and fly away. But they wouldnt all go in the same direction, they wouldnt all flap their wings at the same time, they wouldnt all flap the same wing first, they wouldnt all take off together...etc. etc. etc.

One thing I can be sure of though - they are all acting accoriding to a particular material circumstance, and 99.99999 percent of the time - they will get a fright and fly away. The other .00001 would be the possibilityof one taking a heart attack from the bang and dieing :D .

You find me one person on this planet who dosnt react to gravity or ground surface! We all pretty much relate to this condition the same way!!!!

Now, can you give me an example of something in which we dont act and think in accordance with our material conditions?

Behavior is defined by material conditions, but on a personal level

I fail to see what your saying here. Are you trying to say there are no governing material influences in which we all behave in a similar way? Gravity for example?

Are you saying we all act in a personal "anarchy"(not in the ideological way) void of any collective material influences?

It's probably just me, but I fail to see whatever point you are trying to make with the inability to position yourself, physically (that was what you said in your last post), at two places at once.

Well, yeah, I do think its just you - especially if you claim to be a materialist.

Mr "high melting point" asked me to explain how our material conditions define our actions and thought, as if to challenge materialism.

I am trying to explain to him the impossibility of acting detached from material influence.

Which he seems we are capable of doing :rolleyes:

So, I ask him, if this is possible, change your material reality? - which should be possible virtually, if we can act detached from material reality.

What I am basically trying to say, being creatures made of matter (and nothing more), our relationship with the external world of matter, can be nothing more than a material reaction.

Anything more is spiritual and supernatural - something without a shred of scientific proof or rational basis!

The fact is, I mentally could position myself, to the degree that I actually thought I was there, anywhere I could think of, using for example hypnosis.

So you can act detached from material reality when hypnotised?

If so, im really curious to know how you would manage to get out of this hypnosis?

Or would it be that once hypnotised, thats it!!........an eternity of virtual reality, void of aging in the material world?

But this is related to capitalism, how?

:lol:

Dont be foolded by the title of the thread, Ou-De(whatever) claimed greed is a stumbling block to communism - I see this arguement as absolutely bollox! Ignorance speaking!

Us materialists could crush this exact question very easy, without endless Idealist debate about temptation and "human nature". Yet we dont?...Why?...........could it be many of us dont understand materialism?.....possibly!!.......Anyway, I gave my response to the question of greed, it was challenged - hence the present topic.

So, Tungsten, can you tackle this "problem" head on?...........Can you plausibly state that we can act in detachment of our material surroundings, experiences and construction?

Dyst

16th March 2006, 14:01

I fail to see what your saying here. Are you trying to say there are no governing material influences in which we all behave in a similar way? Gravity for example?

Are you saying we all act in a personal "anarchy"(not in the ideological way) void of any collective material influences?

No, we all react the same way to (the exact same) material influences, but we also react depending on experience (with previous material influences).

For example, if you are falling, and about to hit the ground, you would probably position yourself so that you'll land in the least damaging position.

But if a newborn baby is to fall, she would probably respond differently. Because she wouldn't know which position would be the least damaging.

So you can act detached from material reality when hypnotised?

If so, im really curious to know how you would manage to get out of this hypnosis?

Or would it be that once hypnotised, thats it!!........an eternity of virtual reality, void of aging in the material world?

Well, I never said detached from material reality.

But for example, one could be hypnotized into believing there is an elephant in the room. Without it having any relevance with the material reality, other than that elephants do exist, thus, not detached from material reality.

So you are correct.

Connolly

16th March 2006, 14:22

Well, I never said detached from material reality.

My fault for not communicating this properly :) - but all my posts were to show how we cannot act and think detached from material reality.

Again, dont get me wrong, we can imagine things that dont exist - but this needs something to build on. And, in the end - even though your mind may not be thinking of something real - it will be affected by material reality.

Hypnosis for example, uo may be hypnotised into imagining something not real - but when the magician(hypnotist) clicks his fingers (or whatever), you will emerge back to reality.

The fact that you would react to the "signal" of finger clicking, shows you were not detached from material reality in the first place - but infact you were still interacting with it.

The same goes for if you were standing and remain standing when /while hypnotised.
The body is still reacting to gravity, even though you may think during hypnosis that your swimming etc etc.

My communication fault comrade! :unsure:

Xanthus

17th March 2006, 10:00

Originally posted by Eoin Dubh+Mar 15 2006, 10:03 PM--> (Eoin Dubh @ Mar 15 2006, 10:03 PM)
[email protected] 14 2006, 09:46 PM

Burn it? Are you kidding?

Burn it? What a waste. We may be overthrowing capitalism, but we need to do it from within capitalism, and money is very much needed for that goal.
Money does not exist.
It's not real.

People think it is real, and yeah, it is as real as "Monopoly" money.

Think it through.

Believing in the myth supports the chains which bind. [/b]
Well, when I have to pay to have a paper printed, it feels real.
When I have to buy groceries to eat and live, it feels real.
When I have to buy a plane ticket to fly to a congress or to intervene in a revolution it certainly feels real.
And when I have to slave away at a job I hate to do all of the above, it definitely feels real.

Money in and of it's self is nothing but paper and entries in computer databases, but what it represents is labour, and that representative quality is certainly very far away from nothing.

Though, maybe you're right... if I don't believe it, all my agitational activities will be free of charge, and all my day to day needs will mysteriously be taken care of. No wait, that's not the real world.

Comrade, I don't know what method you're using to come up with this magical land of fantasy where we can dream the realities of capitalism away, but for someone with www.marxists.org in your signature, you are very much divorsed from anything resembling materialism.

We live in a capitalist world. I hate it, and so do all on this board, but we haven't ended it yet.

вор в законе

17th March 2006, 11:00

It is relatively easier for the communists to become rich, than this bufoons, since we more or less know how the mechanism of the system works.

Eoin Dubh

17th March 2006, 11:41

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 10:03 AM

Comrade, I don't know what method you're using to come up with this magical land of fantasy where we can dream the realities of capitalism away, but for someone with www.marxists.org in your signature, you are very much divorsed from anything resembling materialism.
In the opening stage of the transition from capitalism to communism, and prior to the organization of a fully developed system for the communist production and distribution of goods, the abolition of money is impossible. . . The Russian Communist Party endeavours to promote a series of measures favouring a
moneyless system of account keeping, and paving the way for the abolition of money.
— 8th Party Program of the U.S.S.R., 1919
Subsequent Party Programs didn't mention eliminating money

Fidel Castro says: "We've done away with a lot of privileges and inequalities and we want all of them to disappear, but the real problem isn't to redistribute income or equalize wares. We must break from the mastery of money, get rid of money altogether."
— Jerry Rubin, Do It!, 1970
--------------------------------------------------
I never had Marxists.org in my sig.
I am being a bit of a devils advocate.
I know we live in a industrial capitalist system and must 'play the game' and suffer attendant ills, but lets keep our eyes on the prize and find ways to use $$ as little as possible.
It is good to challenge accepted norms, burning money forces people to think about how stupid Capitalism really is on a very basic level.
:hammer: