crisis of marxism

[realleft]

The need of hour,as you 've rightly stated that to fight with utmost ressolve and an undomitable will with all the forces of revisionism. You'll agree with me when I say that the whole intelligentia of world is engulfed into a graet HAZE- A Haze of confusion,chaos,lack of clarity and in a great deal lack of any visible theory which can throw the dimmest light upon this state of affair. I personaly feel that the act of Lenin when he chose to write "Materialism and Emperio-critism" has to understood in total historical perspective and we must put forward the theory from the thread he had left. To have an iconoclatic perspective upon any of theretical promlem 'll be the a great folly for which history'll never forgive us. See -the greatest attribute of POWER(let us accept the Foucaultian intrepreatation of history) is to appropriate /sumsume even the greatest rebel. Budha,Mohamad even Christ were greatest rebels of their time but history has shown that the POWER could apprpriate them and assimilated into itself. More or less the same thing has happened with Marx/Lenin also and we must accept that the present Power(to Quote US et el. shall be over-simplification) has made them unfashionable/out of context/histoeical blur. You talk to the most opperessed youth - even he 'll not envince slightest interest into the marxian theory.
I strongly feel that as far as Economic Theory is concerned, there is no better or even the reply to Marx. The whole gamut of economists througout have only tried to falsify the surplus value theory and the inherent contradictions of capitalism - may it be Keyense,Schumpeter,Samuelson - they are only trying to cover up the glaring contradictions of capitalism which was so clearely expounded by Marx.But the historical blunder has happened that nobody since marx have even tried to further develop/evolve the economic theory which is core of whole Marxism.Instead the focus was sifted to superstructure-cultutral studies / sexuality and other polemics. The result is so clear- Bourgesis has simply appropritated the whole leftist movement.
:ph34r:

[Lamanov]

Originally posted by realleft+--> (realleft)I personaly feel that the act of Lenin when he chose to write "Materialism and Emperio-critism" has to understood in total historical perspective and we must put forward the theory from the thread he had left.[/b]

I disagree. Lenin only repeated the pattern of old bourgeois materialism in that work where he totally copied Plekhanov. Plekhanov's and Lenin's work in the realm of philosophy gave rise to so-called "dialectical materialism", contrary to the whole Marx's project of transcendence of old materialism and old idealism.

In other words, Materialism and Empirio-critism is a worthless piece of shit.


Originally posted by [email protected]
You talk to the most opperessed youth - even he 'll not envince slightest interest into the marxian theory.

Depending on what you would say :lol: , to be more honest. If you show them the ol' "Marx-to-Lenin" pattern, no wonder they'd decline.


realleft
But the historical blunder has happened that nobody since marx have even tried to further develop/evolve the economic theory which is core of whole Marxism.

This is one of the major problems which occur when we project the 20th ct. "Marxism" upon Marx himself. There's no "Marxist economics" as a scientific system, but there's only a critique of political economy which started with Marx.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

From the way i understand it, it doesnt matter too much how much support there is for marxism at the moment, because it will only be important when there is a revolutionary mood!

Once the workers revolt, its then we really need to spread marxist ideas. No amount of ideological support is really gona change the need for workers to realise they would benifit from a system with no capital.

[xprol]

Why wouldn't there be a "HAZE" when 'left' accademic debate is permiated with such middle class scolastic pessimism.

What is happening in the world outside our heads is the object of revolutionary activity. Revolutionary? accademics could be assisting the movement by helping to describ the $ crisis, the war drive, the sucsesses of the anti-imperialist movemens the setbacks for imperialism. Change the world by developing better theory ABUOT THE WORLD! What gose on in our heads then will be what gose on in our heads, and that is not as yet predictable. Is it?

And before any wingeing accademic wants to protest, just stop and think what a real tremendous revolutionary contribution you could make by describing the Dollar crisis better than it has alredy been described, but compressed into no more than say 3/4 A4. It would help me when I'm trying to explain it to people.

And for fuck sake cheer up!

[piet11111]

i dont see any reason for pessimism its obvious capitalism is becoming weaker and that the standards of living are falling because of that.

these days are finally the time to start raising class awareness because poeple are beginning to listen.
and if things keep going on the same way its right now i dont think its unlikely that we will see the revolution in our lifetime.
just scrape some money together and buy weapons and munitions even if for some reason the revolution is going to take longer those weapons can still be used by other revolutionary's.

[emokid08]

again- I find myself agreeing with piet11111.
This discussion tetered on collapsing into " Lenin is stupid! Trotsky is so much cooler! Lenin is such an idiot and has nothing to contribute! Trotsky should have been in charge! Y did stalin kill trotsky? blah blah blah"

It's true, and apparent on this board certainly, that the left has become a bit hazey and unclear. Not to mention divided and splintered and factionalized. Sectarian if u will.This is no doubt what the capitalists want. If we r to succeed, we must unite!

WORKERS OF THE WORLD UNITE- YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE BUT YOUR CHAINS!

[Squirel52]

Emokid08 has hit the nail on the head. There is 1 Very good reason why the left wing is so weak (though admittedly gaining support through sheer ineptitude of the Right) in todays world. That reason is clearly demonstrated in Monty Pythons "the Life of brian" - an unusual thing to bring up in a politcal argument for sure, but bear with me. The judean peoples front! Splitters!

Every individual branch of the left wing spends more time arguing with those who share similar, but Slightly different views, from themselves than they do arguing against capitalism. As a member of one of the only socialist groups in my city (it's a small city) i have the rare opportunity to observe this in other cities in NZ without being actively involved in it myself.

The Right have the distinct advantage that, no matter which approach they take to it, they all want the same thing and most of all they want Us to disappear. Mor even than we want them to dissapear because they have a lot to loose, where as we only have a lot to gain (i know it sounds like i'm downplaying our own political desires, but it's a lot easier to let go of something you don't have)

There is a lot of political ambiguity amongst the left wing, each group taking different approaches to the downfall of capitalism and each with their own ideas of what the dieal future society would be like. This is an obvious and gaping weakness to lefty's as a whole. and a more or less unavoidable one.
But the politcal atmosphere is heating up (and not just because of all our greenhouse emissions) and the revolution will come. Be it a workers revolution that the marxists hope for, or a minority revolution like the maoists aim for, or some unforseen kind of thing, unless there is a unified front against the inevitable capitalist backlash (think of the 1917 october revolution) we are just as doomed to failure as every "socialist" revolution to date.

Lack of political clarity os not our enemy, lack of Solidarity is.

Viva Le Revolution

[realleft]

Dear DJ-TC,- When u simply put the work of Lenin - Materialism and Emirio-critisism" as the old copy of Pekenov - thereafter only the polemics statrts. It very clearly shows that you have not gone through honestly with the book. Ab initio ,the very purpose of writing of the book was to clear the great confusion/chaos /revisionism in the basic theory of scientific marxism(not the old orthodox marxism) created by Mach et el. The scholorly credentials of Plekenov can not and must not be questioned but the very fact that the path chosen by Plekhenov post 1905 was historical blunder can not be ignored. Hope you'll take the Greatest Remark of Marx " The question is not to understand the world , but how to change it"(I am quoting by memory - may it not be word by word same) " in true spirit and comprehend the things in right perspective. Nothing personal.
LONG LIVE REVOLUTION AND REVOLUTIONARY THEORY. :hammer: :D

[emokid08]

Thank you comrade squirel for standing up with me.

Look at us, for example. Marxism is, and probably has to be, the most divided ideology ever. And usually it's over the littlest of things, even about people! It's silly really. I know our differences make us unique-but we will have to comprimise for our sake- - - and for the sake of our fellow workers comrades!

Look at the right! It's all that militaristic discipline that keeps everyone marching in lockstep.
I'm glad we're not like them! We should strive to be thier exact opposite (duh),
BUTT! A little unity would be nice, wouldn't it?

Hold high the great RED banner Of Marxism-Leninism-Maoism :hammer:

[More Fire for the People]

The need of hour, as you have rightly stated that to fight with utmost resolve and an indomitable will with all the forces of revisionism. You will agree with me when I say that the whole intelligentsia of world is engulfed into a great HAZE- A Haze of confusion, chaos, lack of clarity and in a great deal lack of any visible theory that can throw the dimmest light upon this state of affair.
The ‘intellectuals’ are not a homologous group. Each class develops a section of organic intellectuals to that class. The bourgeoisie develops conservatives and corporations. The petty-bourgeoisie develops fascists, anarchists, technicians, and professors. The working class develops communists, teachers, and scientists.
Every social group, coming into existence on the original terrain of an essential function in the world of economic production, creates together with itself, organically, one or more strata of intellectuals which give it homogeneity and an awareness of its own function not only in the economic but also in the social and political fields.
— The Intellectuals, Antonio Gramsci

I personally feel that the act of Lenin when he chose to write "Materialism and Empero-criticism" has to understand in total historical perspective and we must put forward the theory from the thread he had left. To have an iconoclastic perspective upon any of theoretical problem will be a great folly for which history will never forgive us.
The proletariat must maintain a scientific-dialectical outlook on life. One must remember that in science a theory is a tested hypothesis. When a theory fails to correlate to the ‘facts’ i.e. the material world it must be reanalysed and rewritten.


See -the greatest attribute of POWER (let us accept the Foucauldian interpretation of history) is to appropriate / subsume even the greatest rebel. Buddha, Mohammad even Christ were greatest rebels of their time but history has shown that the POWER could appropriate them and assimilated into itself.
The notion of ‘power’ as an independent is fundamentally idealistic. Power, i.e. state-cultural power, is a means. The ruling classes use power as a means to suppress or hegemonize rebel notions. For instance, revolutionary socialism became ‘fierce baby-eating communism’ and social democracy.


More or less the same thing has happened with Marx/Lenin also and we must accept that the present Power (to quote US et el. shall be over-simplification) has made them unfashionable/out of context/historical blur. You talk to the most oppressed youth - even he will not evince slightest interest into the Marxian theory.
I strongly feel that as far as Economic Theory is concerned, there is no better or even the reply to Marx.
Marx did not maintain an economic theory rather he proposed theoretical concepts to explain capitalism. There is no one Marxian theory but rather a combination of the theories dialectical materialism, materialist concept of history, labour theory of value, etc.

The reason why Marxism appears uninteresting to the proletarian youths is that it has been distorted into being a programme of ‘evil dictatorship’, ‘commie atheism’, and ‘freedom-hating’.

The advancement of Marxian political economy is a further analysis of the material base. Much of Marxian political economy has been established. The few issues that remain are globalisation, social democracy, corporations, and postindustrialism. This is merely the base of society. The base while significant is incredibly small in comparison to the superstructure. The cement foundation of a skyscraper is small in comparison to the massive structure atop of it.

[xprol]

No, No, No. Stop thinking about 'unity'. We are not interested in a 'life stile choice'. Start thinking and talking about what is happening in the world and start explaining it! Thats what we need to do to develop revolutionary theory. The spread of this revolutionary theory (understanding of the world as it is changing ) is the most powerful weapon we have. Try it. Break out of the daft academic middle class whirlpool by examining capitalist crisis and explaining it. You do not need to be in a party to do that. Everyone can do it. Come on , get a grip, you're revolutionaries. Start behaving like leaders. Take initiatives on your own. Explain the world! That is the most revolutionary thing you can do!

[emokid08]

But it would benefit our cause immensely if we explained the world together, and on the same page. What xprol is saying is very admirable, but unfortunately, I am no revolutionary. The idea I expouse is. Communism is still a revolutionary thought even after 200+ years.But unfortunately, I have not had the privelege of being a revolutionary. I admire those who have on this board.

I still say that unity needs to be our focus as we rocket towards the future.
:engles: :marx: :hammer:

[Punk Rocker]

Fuck yeah emokid and squirrel the only reason the left is so weak now is because we won't stop fighting each other and unite to burn down the system.

Xporl yeah it's cool to do shit on your own, but a revolution needs an undergound army, and to have that you need unity.

I just agreed with an emo kid?

[emokid08]

Don't worry punk rocker- I don't dress like an emokid, I just play one in a popular tv series drama. But seriously, I don't look or dress Emo. I just love the music and embrace what it stands for.

My friend the system needs to be more than burned, it needs to be smashed! Only the workers and proletarians can raise up and destroy the system oppressing them! Oppressing all of us!

The old saying rings true!
The only good Capitalist is a DEAD ONE!

Arm the people and they will fight

Workers of the world, UNITE! You have nothing to lose but your chains!

Hold high the RED banner of Marxism-Leninism-Maoism :hammer:

Glad to have you on our side punk rocker![/i][/u]

[Lamanov]

Originally posted by realleft+Mar 16 2006, 02:57 PM--> (realleft @ Mar 16 2006, 02:57 PM) Dear DJ-TC,- When u simply put the work of Lenin - Materialism and Emirio-critisism" as the old copy of Pekenov - thereafter only the polemics statrts. It very clearly shows that you have not gone through honestly with the book. Ab initio ,the very purpose of writing of the book was to clear the great confusion/chaos /revisionism in the basic theory of scientific marxism(not the old orthodox marxism) created by Mach et el. The scholorly credentials of Plekenov can not and must not be questioned but the very fact that the path chosen by Plekhenov post 1905 was historical blunder can not be ignored. [/b]
That's probably the worst defence in Lenin's name I've encountered in a long time on this board. The "purpose" of that book was to show how "Marxists", Plekhanov, and his disciple Lenin included, could be considered true "philosophers".

But the mechanic world outlook and bourgeois-materialist weakness posed by Lenin and supported by Plekhanov could not be hidden from anyone who knows anything about history of philosophy.


Originally posted by [email protected]
Hope you'll take the Greatest Remark of Marx " The question is not to understand the world , but how to change it"(I am quoting by memory - may it not be word by word same)

(Emphasis added)

My dear child, it's: "Philosophers have hitherto interpreted the world in various ways, the point, however, is to change it".

You just said that we don't have to understand it. That's one of the most stupid things I've ever hurd - and you can take it personal.


emokid08
Hold high the great RED banner Of Marxism-Leninism-Maoism...

:rolleyes:

Maybe you should take your sectarian bullshit elswhere.

[Punk Rocker]

Don't worry punk rocker- I don't dress like an emokid, I just play one in a popular tv series drama. But seriously, I don't look or dress Emo. I just love the music and embrace what it stands for.

What drama man?

Oh and dude I wouldn't mind if you dressed emo, that's my shit with emos, they dress punk but there music isn't, it's posing.

And I noticed you like Rise Against thats cool.


My friend the system needs to be more than burned, it needs to be smashed! Only the workers and proletarians can raise up and destroy the system oppressing them! Oppressing all of us!

Hell yeah it needs to be smashed.

[realleft]

Dear DJ, I am glad that Marx has been reincarnated in for of you. I feel so sorry for all ol’ Lenins/Plekhenovs . Where you been hiding my dear friend – the greatest theorist of 20th /21st century? Well well , really we did not know Marx also can take re-birth in form of DJ(Disk Jockey?).

Red Salute
:rolleyes:

[Lamanov]

A Lenin's apologetic who believes in 'reincarnation'? Oh, my, what would our dear "materialist and empyrio critic" Vladimir say? :lol:

* * * Say what you like, but I can back up my claims. ;)

[wet blanket]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2006, 05:49 AM
Hold high the RED banner of Marxism-Leninism-Maoism
:lol: Sorry mate, the red banner isn't exclusive to MLM theology.

[Lamanov]

Originally posted by wet blanket+Mar 21 2006, 08:55 PM--> (wet blanket @ Mar 21 2006, 08:55 PM)
[email protected] 17 2006, 05:49 AM
Hold high the RED banner of Marxism-Leninism-Maoism
:lol: Sorry mate, the red banner isn't exclusive to MLM theology. [/b]

:D

Don't spoil the enthusiasm. ;) :lol:

[Jimmie Higgins]

Originally posted by Punk [email protected] 17 2006, 03:55 AM
Fuck yeah emokid and squirrel the only reason the left is so weak now is because we won't stop fighting each other and unite to burn down the system.

Xporl yeah it's cool to do shit on your own, but a revolution needs an undergound army, and to have that you need unity.

I just agreed with an emo kid?
I think people on both sides of this discussion are seeking shortcuts to revolution.

As far as political clarity and theory, frankly, some of this will never really be resolved in the absense of an actual working class movement. There will never be an automatic formula where if you do X at a certain time, then a revolution will happen, but when there is a new and sucsessful worker's movement, theory will be tested in practice just as WWI and the Russian revolution changed the nature of the debates on the left that existed before then.

As far as simply uniting together... well even if all the socialist groups in the US combined, they would probably not be as big as the NOI or the CP in their heydays. So now the entire left would be together and do what? Some would want to start bombing banks to incite revolution and others would dennounce such tactics and want to focus on organizing workers others would want to start shooting cops and others would want to write articles on the internet and hope it inspires workers to revolt... so basically everyone would be doing what they are doing now anyway.

I agree that there should be discussion and debate between different tendencies as well as solidarity, but this alone will not change the nature of the era we are in right now. The main problem as I see it in the US is that there is a big disconnect between worker's consiousness and the ability to organize and express that consiousness: most workers are against the war, most do not like their place in the capitalist system, most workers recognize that conditions have gotten worse, most black workers recognize that institutional racism is on the rise and so on.

At the same time there are a lot of backwards ideas in the mix and people can be against the Iraq war one minute, but then fall into some Islamopobic ideas in the very next sentance. So what's the missing link? How can 70% of troops want the war to end, but troops are not fragging officers? How can 60% of the population be against the war, yet the anti-war movement can barely get 10,000 people out to march in San-Fran-fuckin'-cisco!? How can most black people recognize the racism of the police and the prison system and yet there is no new civil rights movement?

This is the crisis of marxism right now. How do marxists, and the left in general, bridge this gap between consiousness and politcal action and movement?

[enigma2517]

Action without analysis is thuggery

Analysis without action is elitism

I think most of us are in that second one right now.

[realleft]

[QUOTE]I agree that there should be discussion and debate between different tendencies as well as solidarity, but this alone will not change the nature of the era we are in right now. The main problem as I see it in the US is that there is a big disconnect between worker's consiousness and the ability to organize and express that consiousness: most workers are against the war, most do not like their place in the capitalist system, most workers recognize that conditions have gotten worse, most black workers recognize that institutional racism is on the rise and so on.

See the problem lies with conceptualisation or the problematization. ab initio, the workers in particular and the masses in general are confused with state sponsered and propagated feel-good enviorn. They are made to belive that there is no alternative(TINA), what sombody has materially and socially achieved - he is capable of achinving that much. This is the basic premise of neo-capitalism that they present even the most reactionary and unwarrated (also inhuman) programmes/ policies in such a sugar coated manner that the real intent is concealed and the worker/pretty bourgesis get confused it with welfare measure and all the scope of resistance is blunted thereupon itself. WE must identify the real issues concerning with workers and involving them , informed about real intent and charecter of bourgesis. :huh: