Socialisn and the Northern Irish question...

[Dr Mindbender]

Most leftist tendencies within Ireland seem to have been the monopoly of the Republican lobby. However, although I am a leftist hailing from a protestant background, I still have hesistancy supporting the Sinn Fein program. My reasons are thus. I do not believe that Irish unity is the best route to a socialist ireland, North or South. For too long the conservative lobby have held a grip on the dail, and for this brand of cuddly thatcherism to make its way to Belfast, would be damaging to class conciousness north of the border. The Republic of Ireland is a playground for the big business suits of Brussels, and unity would bring Northern Ireland within their market madness.
Furthermore, is the Vatican influence on the republic. Without the limitations of the border, another 750 000 women would lose the right to choose what happens to their bodies. However this does not mean N. Ireland should preserve its connections with Westminster either. Under the Blair project Northern Irish students have lost their right to free university education. Ulster pensioners have lost the link between pensions and earnings. Not to mention the rampant privatisation that could take place, evident on the British mainland.
I propose the solution is building class conciousness on a cross community basis, under a red banner- not a green or orange one. A secular banner which can counter the lies of reactionary groups on both sides of the divide, leading to an independent socialist statelet. Then the hope would be, that we could prove to both our british and irish counterparts that socialism is the way forward and once again, the British isles could be united- Not under a banner of tierany or imperialism - but one of truth, peace, comradeship and social justice.

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by Ulster [email protected] 13 2006, 06:43 AM
Furthermore, is the Vatican influence on the republic.
Or as Big Ian would say "The Provisional IRA is the military wing of the Roman Catholic Church." :rolleyes:

[Conghaileach]

Originally posted by Ulster [email protected] 13 2006, 07:43 AM
Furthermore, is the Vatican influence on the republic. Without the limitations of the border, another 750 000 women would lose the right to choose what happens to their bodies.
Abortion is also illegal in the Occupied Six Counties, thanks to religious fundamentalists like Paisley.



I propose the solution is building class conciousness on a cross community basis, under a red banner- not a green or orange one. A secular banner which can counter the lies of reactionary groups on both sides of the divide, leading to an independent socialist statelet.
A socialist Norn Iron? This colonial statelet is completely untenable, in fact it's sectarian nature pretty much solidifies that. The border is an artificial line drawn on a map by British Imperialists to ensure that they would have a loyal 'majority' in a statelet that they required at the time only for its ports and certain industries like the shipyards.



Then the hope would be, that we could prove to both our british and irish counterparts that socialism is the way forward and once again, the British isles could be united- Not under a banner of tierany or imperialism - but one of truth, peace, comradeship and social justice.
Until the questions of British Imperiailsm and the interests of the English bourgeoisie in Ireland, Scotland, Wales, and England too, is addressed, there is no hope of uniting the workers.


"Washing one's hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral." - Paulo Friere

[The Grey Blur]

You can't buld Socialism in a colony

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by ComradeOm+Mar 13 2006, 10:58 AM--> (ComradeOm @ Mar 13 2006, 10:58 AM)
Ulster [email protected] 13 2006, 06:43 AM
Furthermore, is the Vatican influence on the republic.
Or as Big Ian would say "The Provisional IRA is the military wing of the Roman Catholic Church." :rolleyes: [/b]
Im not saying the IRA and vatican are entwined. What I am saying is that the vatican controls the fundamental belief system of the existing Irish state whose theology contradicts the principals of socialism.

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by Conghaileach+--> (Conghaileach)Abortion is also illegal in the Occupied Six Counties, thanks to religious fundamentalists like Paisley.[/b]Despite the fact that, the British ruling class prescence in Ulster is damaging at a cross community level, there is an element of limited political freedom that Ulster enjoys as its own entity. I beleive the women of Ulster should take advantage of that flexibility, to steer it towards feminism and the pro choice cause before the Catholic lobby of the Irish right have the opportunity to hijack the issue.
It is this front which will also remove the influence of bigots like Paisley.

Originally posted by [email protected]
A socialist Norn Iron? This colonial statelet is completely untenable, in fact it's sectarian nature pretty much solidifies that. The border is an artificial line drawn on a map by British Imperialists to ensure that they would have a loyal 'majority' in a statelet that they required at the time only for its ports and certain industries like the shipyards.
Although the Northern Irish state has a colonial past, it is still a state of working, middle and upper classes whose proletarian ranks are victims of class oppression.
Because of the influence of loyalist fascists, many left wingers from protestant backgrounds cannot speak up against the status quo for fear of their lives.
Due to this, we need a roadmap with a view to simulaneously bridge the divide, as well as overthrowing the Northern Irish beourgiouse.

Conghaileach

"Washing one's hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral." - Paulo Friere
It isnt a question of washing ones hands - it is a matter of following the right path with as little bloodshed as possible.

[The Grey Blur]

Originally posted by Ulster Socialist+Mar 13 2006, 09:03 PM--> (Ulster Socialist @ Mar 13 2006, 09:03 PM)
Conghaileach
Abortion is also illegal in the Occupied Six Counties, thanks to religious fundamentalists like Paisley.I beleive the women of Ulster should take advantage of that flexibility, to steer it towards feminism and the pro choice cause before the Catholic lobby of the Irish right have the opportunity to hijack the issue.
[/b]
I'm sorry, you still seem to think the South is the model Catholic state it was in the 70's - the Catholic Church has very little clout left, whether with working-class people or the government

I'm not saying there aren't right-wing/ religious types theer but I'd say they'd be comparable to the amounts in the North

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by Rage Against The Machine+Mar 13 2006, 09:36 PM--> (Rage Against The Machine @ Mar 13 2006, 09:36 PM)
Originally posted by Ulster [email protected] 13 2006, 09:03 PM

Conghaileach
Abortion is also illegal in the Occupied Six Counties, thanks to religious fundamentalists like Paisley.I beleive the women of Ulster should take advantage of that flexibility, to steer it towards feminism and the pro choice cause before the Catholic lobby of the Irish right have the opportunity to hijack the issue.

I'm sorry, you still seem to think the South is the model Catholic state it was in the 70's - the Catholic Church has very little clout left, whether with working-class people or the government

I'm not saying there aren't right-wing/ religious types theer but I'd say they'd be comparable to the amounts in the North [/b]
I dare say the influence has been diminished somewhat through the neo liberal Fianna fail administration, however I believe that there was an abortion referendum in the republic that was held, but unfortuanately was defeated thanks to whatever clout the catholic right still have.
The case for building a socalist independence voice in the north is this - The Sinn Fein mandate cannot appeal to working class protestants who are too culturally entrenched in the pro unionist mindstate.
If a united Ireland were to occur suddenly, there would be a bloody retribution by the loyalists on a par with nothing seen in 30 years of conflict.
Irish unity must be a gradual, cultural metamorphosis until the social influence of the loyalists has been eradicated.
Left wingers from unionist families such as myself, feel unable to approach the alternatives to unionism due to fear of violence from thugs who fear change. There must be a 3rd way, with a neutral manifesto if this cross community divide is ever to be shattered.

[Crazyvichistan]

I agree. Religous conflicts have always been a tool of the colonialists and economic ruling classes. It turns the common people against each other so that the powerful can maintain power and do what they want. Unity--for Socialism or not--is needed for positive change to happen.

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 02:25 AM
I agree. Religous conflicts have always been a tool of the colonialists and economic ruling classes. It turns the common people against each other so that the powerful can maintain power and do what they want. Unity--for Socialism or not--is needed for positive change to happen.

Unity is easier said than done. You really need to visit Loyalist strongholds in Ulster to get an appreciation of how bad the situation is in terms of local politics.
The British ruling class have a greater base of popularity and support here than in any other part of the UK.
The only way this allegiance can be broken down IMO is to create a secular front that both protestant and catholic workers can mobilise behind without fear of violence from their own side.

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by Ulster [email protected] 13 2006, 08:47 PM
Im not saying the IRA and vatican are entwined. What I am saying is that the vatican controls the fundamental belief system of the existing Irish state whose theology contradicts the principals of socialism.
Imagine that. They forgot to tell me that I was living in a Papist state :o Or is Protestantism much more suited to socialism?

How about you stop sprouting bullshit of which you know nothing. Perhaps if you can look beyond your narrow minded sectarian outlook you might see how far you are from reality.

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by ComradeOm+Mar 14 2006, 01:18 PM--> (ComradeOm @ Mar 14 2006, 01:18 PM)
Ulster [email protected] 13 2006, 08:47 PM
Im not saying the IRA and vatican are entwined. What I am saying is that the vatican controls the fundamental belief system of the existing Irish state whose theology contradicts the principals of socialism.
Imagine that. They forgot to tell me that I was living in a Papist state :o Or is Protestantism much more suited to socialism?

How about you stop sprouting bullshit of which you know nothing. Perhaps if you can look beyond your narrow minded sectarian outlook you might see how far you are from reality. [/b]

No Im not saying either theology is better suited to socialism. What I am saying though is there is a greater appetite for alternative ideas on the north side of the border because Northern Ireland is in an economic quagmire, as well as the fact that both republican and unionist parties have failed to deliver peace, despite 30 years of pointless bickering.

As for me spouting sectarian bullshit, I have nothing against Republican politics. Far from it, I relish the thought of the day Ireland becomes a single entity. Im simply being realistic because (A) i spent 10 years of my childhood in the most bigoted area of Belfast and (B) im open to the fact that the protestant working class must be approached under a neutral banner. Im guessing you come from a nationalist community, in which case count yourself lucky that you at least have the freedom to criticise the British state.
If I was to publicly voice my opinions Id probably end up in a back alley in East Belfast somewhere with my throat slit open.

[redflag32]

I can see why any left thinking person in the protestant community would not favour a united "socialist" Ireland under SF,If sf were to take power then they would just be looking to become a better more nationalist FF,the catholic church would still have its power,even if it is very little,and it would still be a capitalist country,only run by left of centre politicians.Would you not therefore support the policies of the IRSP which is a radical party which wants to see the overthrow of the state as it is currently with its catholic church connections and build a true socialist 32 county country where everyones right are gaurenteed wheather you happen to be protestant,catholic,ethnic minority,traveller,woman or man.They see the onyl way of achieveing this through cross-community debate and co-operation and have made some headway in this policy with talks with the PUP.You cant hope to achieve a true socialist country that is divided,that is why the IRSP make no excuse about there determination to destroy british controll of the 6 counties as a way towards the 32 county socialist country they hope to achieve.

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 10:22 PM
I can see why any left thinking person in the protestant community would not favour a united "socialist" Ireland under SF,If sf were to take power then they would just be looking to become a better more nationalist FF,the catholic church would still have its power,even if it is very little,and it would still be a capitalist country,only run by left of centre politicians.Would you not therefore support the policies of the IRSP which is a radical party which wants to see the overthrow of the state as it is currently with its catholic church connections and build a true socialist 32 county country where everyones right are gaurenteed wheather you happen to be protestant,catholic,ethnic minority,traveller,woman or man.They see the onyl way of achieveing this through cross-community debate and co-operation and have made some headway in this policy with talks with the PUP.You cant hope to achieve a true socialist country that is divided,that is why the IRSP make no excuse about there determination to destroy british controll of the 6 counties as a way towards the 32 county socialist country they hope to achieve.
I dont disagree with anything you say. The problem is the hardliners on the unionist side refuse to sit down on principal to dialogue with anyone opposed to the continuation of partition. With the exception of the SDLP, therefore the nationalist community is all but unrepresented at Stormont which is why we have this vicious circle.
I see no reason why the catholic and protestant working class could not rule the province together and for themselves, free from the big business friendly meddling of Whitehall and the Dail.

[Crazyvichistan]

I dont disagree with anything you say. The problem is the hardliners on the unionist side refuse to sit down on principal to dialogue with anyone opposed to the continuation of partition. With the exception of the SDLP, therefore the nationalist community is all but unrepresented at Stormont which is why we have this vicious circle.
I see no reason why the catholic and protestant working class could not rule the province together and for themselves, free from the big business friendly meddling of Whitehall and the Dail.
As you would say and I would agree, its easier said then done. My question would be, should the banner be under only socialism or something wider to attract more people?

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 02:39 AM

I dont disagree with anything you say. The problem is the hardliners on the unionist side refuse to sit down on principal to dialogue with anyone opposed to the continuation of partition. With the exception of the SDLP, therefore the nationalist community is all but unrepresented at Stormont which is why we have this vicious circle.
I see no reason why the catholic and protestant working class could not rule the province together and for themselves, free from the big business friendly meddling of Whitehall and the Dail.
As you would say and I would agree, its easier said then done. My question would be, should the banner be under only socialism or something wider to attract more people?
Sectarianism, unemployment, poverty and social injustice are all part of the same rotten package that is capitalism. They cant be seperated.

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by Ulster [email protected] 14 2006, 09:57 PM
No Im not saying either theology is better suited to socialism. What I am saying though is there is a greater appetite for alternative ideas on the north side of the border because Northern Ireland is in an economic quagmire, as well as the fact that both republican and unionist parties have failed to deliver peace, despite 30 years of pointless bickering.
Now that is very different from the notion that the South is some Papist state ruled by Rome.

[The Grey Blur]

I just want to say that I have a great deal of respect for you Ulster Socialists and I am able to understand exactly what you're saying. That sort of bigoted atmosphere you were talking about also occurs on the Catholic side, though I dare say to a lesser degree.

It's not that there isn't much political common ground available, it's that there are a lack of willing participants that would be an obstacle to any such movement - Catholics would be extremely wary of moving beyond the protection/ direction of Sinn Féin and Protestants would be understandably averse to giving the appearance they were deserting the DUP's anti-IRA line.


but unfortuanately was defeated thanks to whatever clout the catholic right still have.
Many wise people, un-influenced by religious ideology, people who have seen the facts presented to them still have a concientious objection to Abortion. I think you should also consider that only those over 21 (or was it 18?) were allowed to vote

[redflag32]

Originally posted by Ulster Socialist+Mar 15 2006, 01:30 AM--> (Ulster Socialist @ Mar 15 2006, 01:30 AM)
[email protected] 14 2006, 10:22 PM
I can see why any left thinking person in the protestant community would not favour a united "socialist" Ireland under SF,If sf were to take power then they would just be looking to become a better more nationalist FF,the catholic church would still have its power,even if it is very little,and it would still be a capitalist country,only run by left of centre politicians.Would you not therefore support the policies of the IRSP which is a radical party which wants to see the overthrow of the state as it is currently with its catholic church connections and build a true socialist 32 county country where everyones right are gaurenteed wheather you happen to be protestant,catholic,ethnic minority,traveller,woman or man.They see the onyl way of achieveing this through cross-community debate and co-operation and have made some headway in this policy with talks with the PUP.You cant hope to achieve a true socialist country that is divided,that is why the IRSP make no excuse about there determination to destroy british controll of the 6 counties as a way towards the 32 county socialist country they hope to achieve.
I dont disagree with anything you say. The problem is the hardliners on the unionist side refuse to sit down on principal to dialogue with anyone opposed to the continuation of partition. With the exception of the SDLP, therefore the nationalist community is all but unrepresented at Stormont which is why we have this vicious circle.
I see no reason why the catholic and protestant working class could not rule the province together and for themselves, free from the big business friendly meddling of Whitehall and the Dail. [/b]

The problem is the hardliners on the unionist side refuse to sit down on principal to dialogue with anyone opposed to the continuation of partition.

We need to leave the hardliners behind,we need to show the people the benifits of a socialist 32 county country and hope they come with us and leave the sectarian hardliners behind.Thats were the struggle is today,convincing the unionist/nationalist workers to unite under socialism.

[Seven Stars]

Ulster Socialist, I can understand why you would oppose the politcs of Sinn Fein, I do aswell, but have you looked at groups like the Republican Socialist Movement (http://www.irsm.org)? or their youth wing RSYM (http://www.rsym.org)

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by Ulster Socialist+Mar 13 2006, 08:47 PM--> (Ulster Socialist @ Mar 13 2006, 08:47 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 10:58 AM

Ulster [email protected] 13 2006, 06:43 AM
Furthermore, is the Vatican influence on the republic.
Or as Big Ian would say "The Provisional IRA is the military wing of the Roman Catholic Church." :rolleyes:
Im not saying the IRA and vatican are entwined. What I am saying is that the vatican controls the fundamental belief system of the existing Irish state whose theology contradicts the principals of socialism. [/b]
Theocracy is on the wane in the south, and unlike the north, people don't care as much what religion you are there.

But more fundamentally, to end the clerical state on either side of the border, the best method would be to remove said border and get the two communities together. This is what Connolly meant by the 'carnivals of reaction.' In a united Ireland neither an orange state or a 'papist' one would be tenable.

Aside from that, the south has probably a stronger union culture and movement today than the north, better social benefits and so on, so your basic argument is invalid. If anything, it's the other way around, though I wouldn't make that argument myself.

[Dr Mindbender]

Originally posted by REPOMAN+Mar 17 2006, 06:26 AM--> (REPOMAN @ Mar 17 2006, 06:26 AM)
Originally posted by Ulster [email protected] 13 2006, 08:47 PM

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 10:58 AM

Ulster [email protected] 13 2006, 06:43 AM
Furthermore, is the Vatican influence on the republic.
Or as Big Ian would say "The Provisional IRA is the military wing of the Roman Catholic Church." :rolleyes:
Im not saying the IRA and vatican are entwined. What I am saying is that the vatican controls the fundamental belief system of the existing Irish state whose theology contradicts the principals of socialism.
Theocracy is on the wane in the south, and unlike the north, people don't care as much what religion you are there.

But more fundamentally, to end the clerical state on either side of the border, the best method would be to remove said border and get the two communities together. This is what Connolly meant by the 'carnivals of reaction.' In a united Ireland neither an orange state or a 'papist' one would be tenable.

Aside from that, the south has probably a stronger union culture and movement today than the north, better social benefits and so on, so your basic argument is invalid. If anything, it's the other way around, though I wouldn't make that argument myself. [/b]
I realise how the partition is damaging to class conciousness, within Ireland at least. However, with the mainland ties in place, Northern Ireland sudenly becomes a fuse which could in my opinion, potentially destroy the British establishment. lets not forget that history has shown, whenver revolution occurs, it spreads across regions very easily. I would beleive that if capitalism in N.Ireland was removed, it would take down the British establishment with it, as well as the ramifications that would have for greater Europe.

[redflag32]

I would like to invite anybody who would like to see the uniting of orange and green under a new flag,the red one,to a new forum that was set up to try kick off cross community debate and dialogue between lefties from both cultures.There is currently a lack of a neutral space for dialogue to take place,we hope the CCWDF will fill this gap and be the stepping stone to a united working class under socialism.The first thing the site needs is numbers so if you think our objection is right please sign up and get involved,I would like to strongly reach out to any protestant culture lefties to join up and also to unionists who are willing to debate maturely and openly our ideals of a socialist Ireland.I must stress strongly that this is not a republican board,it is also not a unionist board,it is a socialist board trying to deal with Irish politics so please consider this before you sign up!Thank you.See you there comrades!

Link here!

http://ccwdf.proboards52.com/index.cgi