Hard evidence against the DPRK

[Phalanx]

I'm not saying that I necessarily believe this at all, but I have to ask:

How much real evidence does the South Korean and US governments have on the supposed gulags of North Korea? The only evidence I've seen is former prison guards explaining what they did and a few papers.

For all I know, these papers could easily have been forged by the South Korean government and the supposed prison guards could be South Korean agents. There isn't any other evidence either government has against the DPRK.

In situations like this, all sides have propoganda, and I know S. Korean and the US aren't exceptions. They could be making all of this up for all we know.

[Rosario Central]

Originally posted by Chinghis [email protected] 13 2006, 03:55 AM
I'm not saying that I necessarily believe this at all, but I have to ask:

How much real evidence does the South Korean and US governments have on the supposed gulags of North Korea? The only evidence I've seen is former prison guards explaining what they did and a few papers.

For all I know, these papers could easily have been forged by the South Korean government and the supposed prison guards could be South Korean agents. There isn't any other evidence either government has against the DPRK.

In situations like this, all sides have propoganda, and I know S. Korean and the US aren't exceptions. They could be making all of this up for all we know.
I would not beleive it to much comrade. I mean I also saw that documentary with the prison guard, and I have seen the Journey To North Korea special on CNN, and there is not much truth to it, I mean did Hitler not spread propoganda against the Jews and Russians? of course he did, Its the same thing here, the ROK and USA are trying to gain support from the international community in order to attempt to destroy Communism around the world.

There is no doubt that the DPRK is run strictly but its still much better then life in America or the ROK for that matter, The citizens in the DPRK have security from being murdered etc, yes crimes against them have happened from government officials, but how much of this is the soldiers acting without order? We will never know so.

My advice is to let these things go in one ear and out the other, there is absolutely no proof of these supposed Gulags or of this Mass Famine, if there was they would be all over the UN with proof , Proof that they do not have.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

One thing we do have proof of is the fact that one in three Black men in the US will go to jail.

[Zeruzo]

The 'mass famine' has been aknowledged by the North Korean government but had nothing to do with the socialist system but with the weather conditions and the collapse of the USSR. The 'gulags' have never been denied by the North Korean government (i do not know if they ever aknowledged it, could be).

[RedGeorge]

I guess the safest thing to say is that nobody has a clue what goes on in the DPRK. However, I think that the secrecy the government shrouds the country in does it no favours. Heck, it might be a really nice place- who knows?

[Wanted Man]

There's no way that one could somehow "use" the famine of the 90s as "evidence of the cruelty of the regime". It doesn't even make sense, as if they didn't do anything, or aren't doing anything, to fight it. The famines in the 90s have multiple reasons:

-Series of natural disasters.
-Loss of relations with friendly countries after the Cold War.
-Sanctions imposed by other countries.
-Lack of arable land.
-Lack of countries to import fertiliser from

Etc.

As for "hard evidence" against the country, some rather awful video has been made in 1999(I think) when the country had only just begun recovering from the famine(the one with the guy with the hidden camera who films starving kids). Most recently there was a video from late 2004 which showed horrible conditions at some sort of labour camp. There isn't any background on this though, or at least no substantial evidence that this is government policy, that it's widespread, etc...

RedGeorge: it is possible to travel to the DPRK. Very limited possibilities at the moment, but www.koryotours.com is doing everything possible. More expensive, but, from what I've heard, more bang for your buck, are the annual "solidarity tours" by the Korean Friendship Association.

http://www.korea-dpr.com/kfa2006/

That organisation is pretty much the official "mouthpiece" of the DPRK in other countries(although I've never seen them in my country in real life, I have no idea if they are actually active outside the internet...), so tours with them are obviously a lot less restricted and closer to the people. It might also be easier for U.S. citizens.

The downside of KFA, of course, is if you don't like group travel. Then you'll probably be better off with an independent(don't let the name fool you, there will still be guides, but from what I've read, they're nothing like the Orwellian "minders" as the media present them) tour from Koryo Tours. I myself hope to go on a trip with Koryo Tours in 2 or 3 years.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I think a better question would be what is defensible about the DPRK? <_<

[Zeruzo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 08:02 PM
I think a better question would be what is defensible about the DPRK? <_<
It is a socialist state, the question should be: what is not?

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 08:02 PM
I think a better question would be what is defensible about the DPRK? <_<
Ahh, I remember you from earlier discussions on this subject. Still as much content as always. :lol: Noxion, in discussions on the DPRK, you&#39;ve never gone beyond "It&#39;s evil&#33; Duh&#33; Anyone who doesn&#39;t see that is a fucking asshole, I don&#39;t need no proof&#33;" Go out and play.

[Phalanx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 08:02 PM
I think a better question would be what is defensible about the DPRK? <_<
That&#39;s exactly what I&#39;m asking: Do critics of the DPRK actually have substantial proof that there are human guinea pigs or mass executions? To believe US news blindly would be an absolutely foolish thing to do.

[redstar2000]

Philippine Maoists endorse hereditary Confucianist despotism


GREETINGS TO COMRADE KIM JONG IL
ON HIS BIRTHDAY

Central Committee
COMMUNIST PARTY OF THE PHILIPPINES

16 February 2006

The Communist Party of the Philippines extends its warmest greetings to Comrade Kim Jong Il, General Secretary of the Workers’ Party of Korea, chairman of the National Defense Commission of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea and respected leader of the Korean people on his birthday on 16 February.

http://home.wanadoo.nl/ndf/messages/2006/message0013.html

It&#39;s a strange world, ain&#39;t it&#33; :huh:

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

It is a socialist state, the question should be: what is not?

Wow&#33; i knew there would be some people who i would disagree with, but c&#39;mon. It is not socialist state. it is a Stalinist state.

Unless of course, you still get hung up on the word “dictatorship” within “dictatorship of the proletariat”.

Unless Kim Jong IL counts as the north Korean proletariat, he must work so hard&#33;


That&#39;s exactly what I&#39;m asking: Do critics of the DPRK actually have substantial proof that there are human guinea pigs or mass executions? To believe US news blindly would be an absolutely foolish thing to do.


Look at Cuba, its not the best place on earth, but what they do got is a relative amount of openness. What North Korea don&#39;t got, is any kind of democracy. If they did have socialism the whole world would know about it because the north Korean proletariat would tell everyone, and say how great it is.

North Korea is a joke, the people who think that is socialism are total fools.

Worse than that, not only have they swallowed propaganda designed to convince peasants, they even show an inability to think for themselves.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

For the North Korean fans of their brand of "socialism".

You can now become good north korean communists and purchase some wonderful souvenirs at http://www.korea-dpr.com/souv.htm

For the other fans of north korea, i am sure you will not be suprised to learn about this page http://www.korea-dpr.com/bus1.htm

Now you can live in "Socialist" North Korea and be a capitalist&#33;&#33; amazing, i really dont know how KIM has done it. Thank ye gods he is not a revisionist, eh?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Originally posted by Zeruzo+Mar 13 2006, 08:36 PM--> (Zeruzo @ Mar 13 2006, 08:36 PM)
Originally posted by NoXion+Mar 13 2006, 08:02 PM--> (NoXion &#064; Mar 13 2006, 08:02 PM) I think a better question would be what is defensible about the DPRK? <_< [/b]
It is a socialist state, the question should be: what is not? [/b]
It&#39;s not a socialist state. It&#39;s a Juche despotism.


[email protected]
Ahh, I remember you from earlier discussions on this subject. Still as much content as always. :lol: Noxion, in discussions on the DPRK, you&#39;ve never gone beyond "It&#39;s evil&#33; Duh&#33; Anyone who doesn&#39;t see that is a fucking asshole, I don&#39;t need no proof&#33;" Go out and play.

Yes, I&#39;ve made my feelings clear on the subject in the past. That&#39;s no excuse for you to dodge the question.


Chingis Kahn
That&#39;s exactly what I&#39;m asking: Do critics of the DPRK actually have substantial proof that there are human guinea pigs or mass executions? To believe US news blindly would be an absolutely foolish thing to do.

I&#39;ve no less reason to believe the world&#39;s media than I do to the stalinists who think the place is nothing but clouds and flowers and sunshine and candy.

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 11:22 AM
Yes, I&#39;ve made my feelings clear on the subject in the past. That&#39;s no excuse for you to dodge the question.
What&#39;s the point of answering a rhetorical question? This topic is about "hard evidence against the DPRK", if anything, the burden of proof is on you.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Originally posted by Matthijs+Mar 14 2006, 12:01 PM--> (Matthijs @ Mar 14 2006, 12:01 PM)
[email protected] 14 2006, 11:22 AM
Yes, I&#39;ve made my feelings clear on the subject in the past. That&#39;s no excuse for you to dodge the question.
What&#39;s the point of answering a rhetorical question? This topic is about "hard evidence against the DPRK", if anything, the burden of proof is on you. [/b]
Dictatorships are indefensible by default, you should know that.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

http://www.korea-dpr.com/politics3.htm

check out the third paragraph of this page.

"Today the D.P.R.K is a genuine workers state where all the people are completely liberated from the exploitation and oppression. The Workers, peasants, soldiers and intellectuals are the real owners of power and defend their interests."

This is obvious utter lies, i would expect proof in a real socialist state, especially if they wanted to attract workers from other countries to the ideas of socialism. But no, they fail to provide any proof of these claims.

North Korean socialism is an obvious fraud, and defending it and then calling yourself a communist makes us all seem like a joke. Fuck King KIM of North Korea.

[RedGeorge]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 06:52 PM


RedGeorge: it is possible to travel to the DPRK. Very limited possibilities at the moment, but www.koryotours.com is doing everything possible. More expensive, but, from what I&#39;ve heard, more bang for your buck, are the annual "solidarity tours" by the Korean Friendship Association.



I&#39;ll be on the first plane over there&#33;