New Venezuelan flag creates major controversy

[Janus]

BBC News

Venezuela's leftist President Hugo Chavez has officially unveiled the country's controversial new flag.
Parliament last week approved changes to the 200-year-old design including the addition of an eighth star to honour the province of Guayana.
A white horse on the national coat of arms which appears on the flag now faces left instead of right.
The opposition has condemned the new flag as illegitimate saying there was no proper consultation.
Mr Chavez used the 200th anniversary of Venezuela's first flag to present the new one to the general public.
Ordinary Venezuelans caught a first glimpse of their new flag at a large military parade.
Soldiers carrying the flag goose-stepped past the podium of Mr Chavez who himself hoisted the new banner.
The eighth star was added in line with the thinking of Mr Chavez's idol, the 19th century independence leader Simon Bolivar.
Praising the new design, Mr Chavez said the white horse had now been "freed".
Rival banners
But on the other side of Caracas, around 1,000 opposition members were demonstrating against the new national symbol.
They say they cannot accept the changes because they were not consulted and spokesman Oscar Perez said the opposition would go on using the old banner.
"We will continue using our flag of seven stars, the flag that we democrats recognise.
"At this moment, the Venezuelans have two flags - one of totalitarianism, autocracy and communism, that is the eight stars, and one of democrats - that is seven stars, which is the only one we recognise."
The government wants to keep the changeover costs down by allowing a five-year transition period.
Within that time frame all public buildings will have to switch to the new flag.
Stamps, coins and passports will also have to be revamped.

[Phalanx]

I think Chavez's opposition has nothing better to do than complain about than the flag. They don't seem to realize that Chavez is there by the popular support of the Venezuelan people.

[Tekun]

A flag? :lol:
I like how they accuse him of being a "communist", its obvious that they use the word, knowing full well that such a term can muster anti-authoritarian sentiment

Idiots

[Rosario Central]

LOL, Tell me about it. Chavez has done so much for South America that the only thing his opponents have left to ***** about is a flag.

[Axel1917]

It is funny to hear of the absurd claims that Chavez's opponents make; him being a totalitarian, Pat Robertson's nonsensical accusations of Chavez sending money to Bin Laden, and now this. :lol:

[loveme4whoiam]

"At this moment, the Venezuelans have two flags - one of totalitarianism, autocracy and communism
:lol: - Damn, do these guys actually know anything about what their saying?

[Niall]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 03:20 PM

"At this moment, the Venezuelans have two flags - one of totalitarianism, autocracy and communism
:lol: - Damn, do these guys actually know anything about what their saying?
idiots

[The Grey Blur]

Originally posted by Niall+Mar 13 2006, 03:26 PM--> (Niall @ Mar 13 2006, 03:26 PM)
[email protected] 13 2006, 03:20 PM

"At this moment, the Venezuelans have two flags - one of totalitarianism, autocracy and communism
:lol: - Damn, do these guys actually know anything about what their saying?
idiots [/b]
They know exactly what they're saying

[Yazman]

They know what they're saying to the degree that a parrot knows what it's saying.

[Correa]

Can someone post a picture?

[loveme4whoiam]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/06/americas_enl_1142204372/img/1.jpg

[Noah]

It is an awesome looking flag I must admit.

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

As a descendent of Guyanese heritage, Chavez has always threatened to take over parts of Guyana. In fact, he has threatened on numerous occassions to take over the Essiquibo part of the country - because of the vast resources it has.

Is it right? Well, if we are to believe every country is soveriegn, then it isn't. Under international law (it's validity is up to your interpretation), this would put Chavez on-par ideologically with Bush going into Iraq for resources. Again, I make the distinction here with a pursuit of IDEOLOGY - no, Chavez hasn't killed innocent Guyanese ppl, nor has he waged a war. But ideologies of wanting resources are there:

"The most pressing dispute involves Venezuela's claim to all of Guyana west of the Essequibo River; a maritime boundary dispute with Colombia in the Gulf of Venezuela is less of a priority. The Chávez administration has made moves to normalize these situations by moving towards repudiating Venezuela's outstanding territorial claims."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_policy_of_Hugo_Chávez

It should be noted that Guyana currently is under Bharrat Jagdeo's leadership - a follower of Cheddi Jagan (for those who do not know - Mr. Jagan was a Marxist and very close friend with Fidel Castro and Che Guevara).

[Dr Mindbender]

I thought Guyana was a French colony.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

That's French Guiana, and no Knowledge 666 the situation is nothing like the imperialist invasion of Iraq at all.

Venezuela has a claim to a large part of what is now Guyana, but it has been in negotiations with Guyana for years for a peaceful settlement.

Also the PPP, PNC and the WPA in Guyana are all social democratic parties now.

[kingbee]

I think people are against the idea of him changing the flag as it is wasting money on something as petty as a horse facing the wrong way on a flag, rather than spending it on something slightly more valueable.

I do like Chavez, but frankly I think it's a stupid idea.

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 14 2006, 02:47 AM
That's French Guiana, and no Knowledge 666 the situation is nothing like the imperialist invasion of Iraq at all.

Venezuela has a claim to a large part of what is now Guyana, but it has been in negotiations with Guyana for years for a peaceful settlement.

Also the PPP, PNC and the WPA in Guyana are all social democratic parties now.
If it's for resources (which is a form of economic prosperity indirectly) then yes, it is a form of imperialism. Granted, not some hyper-imperialism like the U$ does to the rest of the world, but imperialism nonetheless.

It's a border dispute for resources, which means monetary gain. If Essiquibo didn't have any resources, would Chavez want to take it over? Didn't think so.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Um, the territoral claim goes back years.. it's not something Chavez initiated.

[Correa]

Who mapped up Guyana? The Brits? Like they did Iraq and then amended it and redrew Kuwait?

[The Grey Blur]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 05:06 PM
They know what they're saying to the degree that a parrot knows what it's saying.
Communists = totalitarian madmen

So, yeah they know exactly what they're saying

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 08:31 PM
Who mapped up Guyana? The Brits? Like they did Iraq and then amended it and redrew Kuwait?
The Deutsch settled there first, so I'd assume they did.

Cdel - I know it goes back years, but for a time, there was a cooling-off period about talks between the two nations. Now, Chavez has refueled an old dispute. And why you may ask? Resources...like I originally said, which you did not pay attention to.

[Dreckt]

Heh, I thought Chavez was going to change the flag beyond recognition or something like that, but then it was one new star and the horse running Left. Jesus, it almost looks like the flag of the Soviet Union now!

[BattleOfTheCowshed]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 12:24 AM
Heh, I thought Chavez was going to change the flag beyond recognition or something like that, but then it was one new star and the horse running Left. Jesus, it almost looks like the flag of the Soviet Union now!
Haha, word. I was hoping he was going to drastically remake it into something a bit more...revolutionary, lol. Anyway, as far as the Guyana issue goes it would be interesting to find out more info, i.e. what do the citizens of that region think? Would their lives be better if they were a part of Venezuela? etc. I'm suspect because I know that the right-wing opposition in Bolivia has tried to make such claims against Evo Morales (not that Im a huge fan of Evo, but hes definitely better than the right-wingers). I.e. arguing that one group of indigineous people is opposed to Morales, even though that indigineous group has been co-opted politically by the right, and the right doesnt even give a fuck about their well-being, just using it as an example of how Morales is "oppresive" and "totalitarian".

[Punk Rocker]

actually i don't really like the flag at all, but the capitalists need to stop *****ing about which way the horse is facing, they're lucky he didn't put a huge hammer and sickle on it.

i am so fucking sick of fascists in america and in venezuela casually calling Chavez a dictator but never giving 1 fucking reason why.

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

I'm a firm supporter of Chavez, but I do think he's refueling a once dead debate. The dispute was resolved in 1899 and since then, the two countries have agreed to put talks aside. Like I said, its resources he's after - if there were none in the Essiquibo region, there would be no debate or controversy.

[McLeft]

But the essequibo region is just forest, there's nothing there not even cities!

[Guerrilla22]

Originally posted by Knowledge 6 6 [email protected] 15 2006, 02:22 PM
I'm a firm supporter of Chavez, but I do think he's refueling a once dead debate. The dispute was resolved in 1899 and since then, the two countries have agreed to put talks aside. Like I said, its resources he's after - if there were none in the Essiquibo region, there would be no debate or controversy.
yes, but wasn't the dispute settled rather unfairly? The western part of Guyana as I'm sure you are aware was part of Venezuela, but the British kept pushing westward into Venezuelan territory, frankly I'd say Venezuela has a legitimate claim.

[bezdomni]

Why did they add an 8th star to the flag?

Nevermind, I answered my own question.

"To honor the province of Guyana."

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

Originally posted by Guerrilla22+Mar 17 2006, 12:18 AM--> (Guerrilla22 @ Mar 17 2006, 12:18 AM)
Knowledge 6 6 [email protected] 15 2006, 02:22 PM
I'm a firm supporter of Chavez, but I do think he's refueling a once dead debate. The dispute was resolved in 1899 and since then, the two countries have agreed to put talks aside. Like I said, its resources he's after - if there were none in the Essiquibo region, there would be no debate or controversy.
yes, but wasn't the dispute settled rather unfairly? The western part of Guyana as I'm sure you are aware was part of Venezuela, but the British kept pushing westward into Venezuelan territory, frankly I'd say Venezuela has a legitimate claim. [/b]
Yes, but this was resolved in 1899. Since then both sides have agreed to end talks on the matter - like I said, Chavez is refueling an old debate.

In all fairness, Essiquibo should go to the 9 Amerindian tribes who live there. But then again, they do control over 85% of Guyana's land mass.

McLeft - yes it is entirely forest, but the land is not only very arable, but there are resources like bauxite, coal, and other minerals. A region isn't considered important just because it has cities.

[encephalon]

oh dear. He's added a star and changed the direction in which the horse is facing.

Now the shit has really hit the fan!

[Dreckt]

As far as I know he added the eight star in honor of Simon Bolivar, who apparently himself wanted an eight star back in the 1800's:

The main changes are the addition of an eighth star, which President Hugo Chávez has called the "Bolivar Star" in honor of Simón Bolívar who had himself proposed the eighth star in 1817.

From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Venezuela