Your politics are boring as fuck

[Atlas Swallowed]

Essay that is relevant to some members here.

http://www.crimethinc.com/library/english/yourpoli.html

[Orthodox Marxist]

On the other hand, if you spend the afternoon typing an angry letter to an obscure leftist tabloid objecting to a columnist's use of the term "anarcho-syndicalist," that's not going to accomplish shit, and you know it.


I bet that person spent the whole afternoon writing that short piece of garbage rather than doing what she preaches.


2. All political activity must be joyous and exciting in itself. You cannot escape from dreariness with more dreariness.

Political activity isnt meant to be joyous or fun its meant to be action taken out of a sense of responsibility for revolutionary change.


Join us in making the "revolution" a game; a game played for the highest stakes of all, but a joyous, carefree game nonetheless!


To assume revolution is a game is pure Idiocy if you treat it as such then your a fool.

[Atlas Swallowed]

Yes some of the essay is quite idiotic but it does make some points. If you speak to workers using out dated terminology and preaching the writing of Marx as Christians preach the words of bible you are not going to get very far, and are probably just going to annoy the piss out of people. The authors viewpoint in a whole is alot more shollow and selfcentered and trivial than that of my own but it does make some good points.

[Ol' Dirty]

But we must not dumb down our beliefs for those who don't understand. We musn't bore them, but we musn't treat them as children, musn't make politics "fun"; because politics are seldom fun; never sugar coat, never preach. What we should do is this: send out a strong, simple, clear message to the proletariat; make loud, make it "lift the spirits", but never dumb our messge down!

[Atlas Swallowed]

Yes but the same message can be said without using archaic terminology.

[YKTMX]

Stupid.

We're not involved in a fucking PR excerise here.

We'll keep our 'archaic' language, thanks very much.

[Dyst]

Originally posted by Atlas [email protected] 11 2006, 12:58 AM
Yes but the same message can be said without using archaic terminology.
Hehehe.

"Archaic terminology".

[xprol]

"But we must not dumb down our beliefs for those who don't understand. We musn't bore them, but we musn't treat them as children, musn't make politics "fun"; because politics are seldom fun; never sugar coat, never preach. What we should do is this: send out a strong, simple, clear message to the proletariat; make loud, make it "lift the spirits", but never dumb our messge down! "

Well go on then!

All this talking about talking would bore the pants off a Jesuit.

The only thing that is going to interest anyone as this $ overproduction crisis threatens to drag us all into WW III, is how we get rid of capitalism once and for all so we can live lives of peace, prosperity and endless social and personal development. And for those who "don't understand", its probably because no one has said it to em.

[Andy Bowden]

I think when you talk to people on a stall though, you shouldnt use terms like "proletariat" or "bourgoise", you'll confuse them.

Use "working class" or "the world lizard conspiracy' instead.

Or "the bosses", whatever.

:lol:

[Atlas Swallowed]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 07:02 PM
Stupid.

We're not involved in a fucking PR excerise here.

We'll keep our 'archaic' language, thanks very much.
Thats fine and dandy but you Communists should at least be able to communicate with the working class that you say you represent or is it just about another form of elitism as every example of Communism past and present has been. Mikael Bakunin predicted any Marxist government would turn into a totalotarian government and so far he has been correct. He will always be correct until the working class represents itself abolishes government and are not ruled by a small group of quasi-intellictual weenies with too much time on thier hands.

[Atlas Swallowed]

Originally posted by Andy [email protected] 10 2006, 07:29 PM
I think when you talk to people on a stall though, you shouldnt use terms like "proletariat" or "bourgoise", you'll confuse them.

Use "working class" or "the world lizard conspiracy' instead.

Or "the bosses", whatever.

:lol:
Confuse them probably not, annoy them most definatly.

If you are refering to the David Icke thread I started by refering to lizard people conspiracy was a joke that is why it is in Chit Chat. I doubt anyone besides Icke and maybe 5 other people globally buy that shit.

Rich, poor, yuppie, office puke, elite, Joe sixpack whatever....

[piet11111]

Originally posted by Atlas Swallowed+Mar 10 2006, 07:30 PM--> (Atlas Swallowed @ Mar 10 2006, 07:30 PM)
[email protected] 10 2006, 07:02 PM
Stupid.

We're not involved in a fucking PR excerise here.

We'll keep our 'archaic' language, thanks very much.
Thats fine and dandy but you Communists should at least be able to communicate with the working class that you say you represent or is it just about another form of elitism as every example of Communism past and present has been. Mikael Bakunin predicted any Marxist government would turn into a totalotarian government and so far he has been correct. He will always be correct until the working class represents itself abolishes government and are not ruled by a small group of quasi-intellictual weenies with too much time on thier hands. [/b]
totally agreed i try to avoid fancy words as much as possible.
aswell as political correctness because under capitalism there is no correctness either.

but trying to make the revolution "fun" sounds a hell of a lot like acting like hippy's hugging and picknicking.
im counting on something that will look a lot like the cuban revolution when the time comes myself.

[black magick hustla]

I love that essay.

It bluntly points out one of the biggest flaws of the "left". The whole workerism bullshit is unatractive to the newer generations.

You make it seem as if revolution needs to be extremely boring.
However, the revolution should be against boredom itself.

There is a whole marxist intelligentsia who just loves to spout bullshit rhetoric.

[piet11111]

then how do you picture the revolution Marmot ?
i myself dont expect to have the luxery of having time to be bored.

[More Fire for the People]

No matter how boring communist ‘politics’ — i.e. theory and practice — they represent an accurate narrative of the world. The proletariat is ignorant of our politics not bored with them. The hegemonic dictatorship of the bourgeoisie overcomes the material tendency towards revolution by making concessions with the proletariat — the welfare state, parliaments, trade unions.

Our ‘jargon’ of dialectics, hegemony, and praxis explain the world. Our ‘antiquated’ movements, strikes, revolutions, etc. are based upon a scientific and dialectical understanding of the universe.

To make politics interesting is to de-alienate the proletariat. That is, the Communist Party must raise class consciousness amongst the proletariat via popular education and agitation.

Though politics is not necessarily interesting. Life is not a television drama; it is real sensuous activity that creates feelings of positiveness, negativeness, and apathy. No matter how we may ‘feel’, somethings that are necessary are not interesting.

[xprol]

A Nice fore piont Manifesto as daft as all the 'left' mainfestos and "what we think" crap.


"1. Make politics relevant to our everyday experience of life again. The farther away the object of our political concern, the less it will mean to us, the less real and pressing it will seem to us, and the more wearisome politics will be."

<span style='color:red'>If the collapse of the &#036; is far away from you, what planet are you on exactly?
So, go on then, YOU show us how to make it happen. We will all be with you.
"2. All political activity must be joyous and exciting in itself. You cannot escape from dreariness with more dreariness."

Try being in Guantanamo and make it "joyous",. Better still jet a "workers" job in a textile factory in Bangladesh and make it "joyous"."3. To accomplish those first two steps, entirely new political approaches and methods must be created. The old ones are outdated, outmoded. Perhaps they were NEVER any good, and that&#39;s why our world is the way it is now. "

Go on then smatr ass, tell us about your "new political approaches". You haven&#39;t got any. Not even in your head."4. Enjoy yourselves&#33; There is never any excuse for being bored... or boring&#33; "

You said it.
"Join us in making the "revolution" a game; a game played for the highest stakes of all, but a joyous, carefree game nonetheless&#33;"</span>

I rest my case.

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 09:31 PM
However, the revolution should be against boredom itself.
This a typical example of the bullshit that marks both these articles and those who find any worth in them. The "revolution should be against boredom itself"... what exactly does that mean? Its nonsense.

[violencia.Proletariat]

This has got to be one of the worst pieces of garbage I&#39;ve ever read.


The truth is, your politics are boring to them because they really are irrelevant. They know that your antiquated styles of protest—your marches, hand held signs, and gatherings—are now powerless to effect real change because they have become such a predictable part of the status quo.

First of all if this were true, then shouldnt Crimethinc have inspired revolution by now :lol:

Whats predictable is the lifestyle tactics. Tagging, lock glueing, etc. This is very revolutionary and totally undectable by cops you know :lol: Shit even the "black block" is probably in all police hand books in major cities.


Why haven&#39;t they sat down and learned all the terminology necessary for a genuine understanding of the complexities of Marxist economic theory?

What "complex Marxist economic theory terminology"? Are proletarian and bourgeoisie too big of terms for their little petty-bourgeois minds? :lol:

These kids SAY that it doesnt work because its "boring" and people arent going to want to listen. However thats not true. They really say this because THEY DONT WANT TO DO THE WORK thats involved with being a revolutionary. They want to throw rocks, spraypaint, glue locks, yell and make noise, etc. Now mind you there is a time for that, but how can you do anything like that and expect change? They OPENLY deny ALL theory, yet they are taking action. That&#39;s like running off a cliff before the bridge is built, "we&#39;ll worry about building the bridge later". :lol: But they immediately fall to their deaths or in other words, go back to exploitation after they tire from their "leftist excursion".


They know that your infighting, your splinter groups and endless quarrels over ephemeral theories can never effect any real change in the world they experience from day to day.

And yet these fools cant organize a protest. They have to call everyone a stalinist at least 57 times before they can start to talk about doing something productive.


Could it be that it is, above all, a feeling of guilt that drives you to fulfill your "duty" to be politically active?

I dont do shit because I feel guilty, THAT IS WHY THESE FUCKHEADS DO WHAT THEY DO. I as a member of the working class participate in revolutionary ideas because its LIBERATION.


politics of our everyday lives. When you separate politics from the immediate, everyday experiences of individual men and women, it becomes completely irrelevant.

Since when do the everday lives of ordinary people contain dumpsterdiving, *****ing on the internet about marxists, and liberating a fucking chicken from a farm?


in a way that is itself entertaining, exciting, joyous—because political action that is tedious, tiresome, and oppressive can only perpetuate tedium, fatigue, and oppression in our lives.

I guess we are fucked as human beings then. Because work is always going to be tiresome and tedius. So does that mean we should no longer eat? Even once we divide up the work that creates the basic needs for living, its not going to be "fun". It&#39;s just something we HAVE to do.


politics relevant to our everyday experience of life again. The farther away the object of our political concern, the less it will mean to us, the less real and pressing it will seem to us, and the more wearisome politics will be.

How is capitalism and its un-appealing conditions not related to a WORKERS (these crimethinc kids think working is a bad thing, all the ones I&#39;ve talked to say they hate work and dont want to do it) everyday life? How can people who DON&#39;T WORK make decisions about WORKERS REVOLUTION.


political activity must be joyous and exciting in itself. You cannot escape from dreariness with more dreariness.

I&#39;ve already shown this statement to be bullshit.


ccomplish those first two steps, entirely new political approaches and methods must be created. The old ones are outdated, outmoded. Perhaps they were NEVER any good, and that&#39;s why our world is the way it is now.

This is not a bad suggestiong but the people who suggested it dont do anything new and "revolutionary".


y yourselves&#33; There is never any excuse for being bored... or boring&#33;

:rolleyes: Workers never get bored, thats not a part of their everyday lives :lol:
Crimethinc Brats.

Join us in making the "revolution" a game; a game played for the highest stakes of all, but a joyous, carefree game nonetheless&#33;

This is the epidemy of crimethinc. We will say we should change shit, but we will add in statements like this to make sure we can give up any time we want when we get "bored".


I advocate putting all these lifestylists in opposing idealogies. :D

[piet11111]

politics as done by capitalists is indeed irrelevant to our cause.

if we tried to claim otherwise then thats in my opinion criminal.

[TomRK1089]

The way I see it, if people aren&#39;t interested in improving the quality of their own lives, then they can live with the consequences. You can&#39;t make someone believe something.

Also, politics has been for too long the domain of the PR experts and fancy tagline people. Politics is not about using words like &#39;synergy,&#39; it&#39;s about effecting change.

Now obviously, you have to know your audience--talking to a bunch of high schoolers, you want to avoid language like the proleteriat and bourgeoise. But there&#39;s a difference between using a strategy for speaking, and making public speaking for your own fame or recognition the be-all and end-all of your beliefs.

[RebelDog]

That article is just garbage spouted by someone who would be shown up as an idiot if they participated in a real debate.

I detest this ongoing myth that socialism is archaic. It is a pioneering ideology thats time is yet to come. Socialism has hardly been born. If socialism is old, outdated and irrelevant then what is capitalism?

People who expouse this crap are getting away with murder (metaphorically speaking) and are oblivious to the irony that they uphold a savage, brutal global system that has overstayed its welcome and is as modern and civilised as sending kids down chimneys.

When the time comes it will be anything but boring.

[xprol]

You are bang on mate&#33;

This guys&#39; politics is middle class shit. BUT he should be invited to explain his program. Apart from giving the entire planet a good laugh, it will help us to understand exactly how these people think, &#39;if you know what I mean&#39;?

[bcbm]

This is boring.


First of all if this were true, then shouldnt Crimethinc have inspired revolution by now :lol:

Whats predictable is the lifestyle tactics. Tagging, lock glueing, etc. This is very revolutionary and totally undectable by cops you know :lol: Shit even the "black block" is probably in all police hand books in major cities.


What "unpredicatble tactics" do you propose? What harm does it do to fight smaller battles against capital in our own ways, while working on larger projects?


What "complex Marxist economic theory terminology"? Are proletarian and bourgeoisie too big of terms for their little petty-bourgeois minds? :lol:

Are those the only words Marxists use to discuss their theories? I&#39;ve met communists who talked so much jargon they didn&#39;t make any sense and I can certainly see how many of the approaches taken would be alienating.


They really say this because THEY DONT WANT TO DO THE WORK thats involved with being a revolutionary.

If "these kids" are the same ones I am thinking of, they&#39;ve probably put in a lot more work towards "being a revolutionary" than a good deal of people here. Furthermore, this is ad hominem, not a real argument.


They OPENLY deny ALL theory

All theory? Not anywhere I&#39;ve seen. I could be wrong. Let&#39;s have it.


And yet these fools cant organize a protest. They have to call everyone a stalinist at least 57 times before they can start to talk about doing something productive.

Ad hominem. And who are "these fools?" CI? They&#39;ve organized protests, not to mention large convergences. The part you quoted was actually one of the better ones in the piece.


Since when do the everday lives of ordinary people contain dumpsterdiving, *****ing on the internet about marxists, and liberating a fucking chicken from a farm?

Ad hominem.


I guess we are fucked as human beings then. Because work is always going to be tiresome and tedius. So does that mean we should no longer eat? Even once we divide up the work that creates the basic needs for living, its not going to be "fun". It&#39;s just something we HAVE to do.

Why take such a defeatist attitude? I can envision a number of ways to make "work" more bearable for everyone, if not making it "fun."


How is capitalism and its un-appealing conditions not related to a WORKERS (these crimethinc kids think working is a bad thing, all the ones I&#39;ve talked to say they hate work and dont want to do it) everyday life? How can people who DON&#39;T WORK make decisions about WORKERS REVOLUTION.

Gee, do you suppose people who call themselves Ex-workers and take a very Situationist position on work would be pushing for a WORKERS REVOLUTION or something else?



I&#39;ve already shown this statement to be bullshit.

No, you just said "Tough shit crybabies, that&#39;s life." Sounds familiar...


This is not a bad suggestiong but the people who suggested it dont do anything new and "revolutionary".


Ad hominem. You acknowledge the argument has validity, that is all that is needed.


This is the epidemy of crimethinc. We will say we should change shit, but we will add in statements like this to make sure we can give up any time we want when we get "bored".

I don&#39;t recall them saying we should give up when we get bored. I believe the point was that we should try to figure out why we&#39;re bored and work towards something that isn&#39;t boring.

[TomRK1089]

BTW, dude, it&#39;s epitome, not epidemy.

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 10:02 PM
then how do you picture the revolution Marmot ?
i myself dont expect to have the luxery of having time to be bored.
A revolution is not a "burden" in the classic sense.

A true revolution against the encroaching mechanisms of alienation would make creativity sinonymous to everyday life. The revolution should destroy all the institutions of old morality and capitalism to replace them by non-alienating associations.

There is nothing boring about destroying the institutions that make our lives miserable&#33; I would definitely enjoy burning down churches and dissasembing the whole mediated relations of hierarchy&#33;

The classical marxist tries to transform the true revolutionary spirit into a fucking profession.


This a typical example of the bullshit that marks both these articles and those who find any worth in them. The "revolution should be against boredom itself"... what exactly does that mean? Its nonsense.

How is it nonsense?

if the revolution isn&#39;t really against boredom, then what is its true goal?


Marching around waving red flags and chanting communist songs about the glorification of the industrial worker?

The glorification of work?

The idealistic nonsense of adding a morality to labor and brandishing ridiculous workerist symbols is disgusting.


Whats predictable is the lifestyle tactics. Tagging, lock glueing, etc. This is very revolutionary and totally undectable by cops you know laugh.gif Shit even the "black block" is probably in all police hand books in major cities.

Most "lifestylist" tactics revolve around creative expression and art. A true revolution would unleash everyone&#39;s creative potential in order to make a dialectical society that combines different tactics and opinions to create new synthesis.

Waving your little red and black flags in a march is not exactly the definition of revolutionary.


What "complex Marxist economic theory terminology"? Are proletarian and bourgeoisie too big of terms for their little petty-bourgeois minds?

They are very separated terms from common language.

Most people find annoying a guy who loves to spout that kind of rhetoric.

Besides, that petty bourgeois shit is a really crap argument. I still don&#39;t understand how someone who lives in probably worst "material" conditions than you is petty-bourgeois.

Living in a squatted house from food found in dumpsters is not really "bourgeois" at all.


These kids SAY that it doesnt work because its "boring" and people arent going to want to listen. However thats not true. They really say this because THEY DONT WANT TO DO THE WORK thats involved with being a revolutionary. They want to throw rocks, spraypaint, glue locks, yell and make noise, etc. Now mind you there is a time for that, but how can you do anything like that and expect change? They OPENLY deny ALL theory, yet they are taking action. That&#39;s like running off a cliff before the bridge is built, "we&#39;ll worry about building the bridge later". laugh.gif But they immediately fall to their deaths or in other words, go back to exploitation after they tire from their "leftist excursion".


Crimethincers are probably better read than you.

Besides what the fuck do you want them to do? Spray prainting art is certainly much more revolutionary than reciting workerist garbage and sheltering yourself in the little leftist religious ceremonies. Academical hogwash in small "marxist" circles is certainly not revolutionary at all.

Not using crap rhetoric is not synonimous to ignoring all theory.



Since when do the everday lives of ordinary people contain dumpsterdiving, *****ing on the internet about marxists, and liberating a fucking chicken from a farm?

Many lifestylist dumpsterdive because they don&#39;t want to work. Work is the capitalist&#39;s time and our dead-time.

Certainly, if everyone stopped working capitalism would collapse&#33;



I guess we are fucked as human beings then. Because work is always going to be tiresome and tedius. So does that mean we should no longer eat? Even once we divide up the work that creates the basic needs for living, its not going to be "fun". It&#39;s just something we HAVE to do.

Most work can be either eliminated or translated into hobbies.



I advocate putting all these lifestylists in opposing idealogies.

Hah&#33; You consider yourself an anarchist yet you are a huge authoritarian-

Fuck you to all the guys who want to make of the revolutionary a fucking decadent specialist.

[piet11111]

well i dont consider the revolution a joyous event either.

sure we will do a lot of things we always wanted to do but at the same time we will be shot at and many of us will be killed.
i expect the revolution to mostly exist out of sadness sorrow and boredom more then anything else.
a revolution is anything but enjoyable to a sane person but it has to be done and personally i would rather avoid it but thats simply not possible if we are to overthow capitalism.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I advocate putting all these lifestylists in opposing idealogies.

Seconded. We&#39;ll let them out when they get jobs.

[violencia.Proletariat]

This is boring.

Then why dont you go liberate yourself from life :lol: Everything is boring to the lifestylists.


What "unpredicatble tactics" do you propose? What harm does it do to fight smaller battles against capital in our own ways, while working on larger projects?

You arent fighting any battles with capitalism. Vandalism is not going to bring down capitalism, it will only bring down a cops club on your head. Mind you, I dont care if you vandalize, but its not revolutionary nor will it bring revolution. What larger projects? Crimethinc DOES NOT take part in the class struggle. Most of them are against working&#33;


Are those the only words Marxists use to discuss their theories? I&#39;ve met communists who talked so much jargon they didn&#39;t make any sense and I can certainly see how many of the approaches taken would be alienating.

Most working class people in 1st world nations can read. In order to make a revolutionary society, they have to be based off ideas. When people read these theories they will grasp the "jargon" easily, its not hard. This is just a petty crimethinc excuse of being "boring". Words are not the reason there hasnt been a revolution.


If "these kids" are the same ones I am thinking of, they&#39;ve probably put in a lot more work towards "being a revolutionary" than a good deal of people here. Furthermore, this is ad hominem, not a real argument.

Working for what lifestylists think is a better future is not WORKING. To be a part of the working class you have to um, WORK&#33; Lifestylists visions are actually opposed to the working class. When they do their little vandalism they are in turn taking away the workers struggle and replacing it with their own. It&#39;s NOT a middle class kids, who does not want to work, decision as to how a WORKERS revolution is going to happen.


All theory? Not anywhere I&#39;ve seen. I could be wrong. Let&#39;s have it.

Ill find the specific quote in a day or so. It&#39;s in their phamplet that has half a city and half countryside on the cover. It says something to the extent of "forget all the old guys with beards".


They&#39;ve organized protests, not to mention large convergences.

Really? And what did these protests do?


Why take such a defeatist attitude? I can envision a number of ways to make "work" more bearable for everyone, if not making it "fun."

I&#39;m not having a defeatist attitude I was being sarcastic. Improving the working conditions is completely realistic. But work is not "fun". But it has to be done.


I don&#39;t recall them saying we should give up when we get bored. I believe the point was that we should try to figure out why we&#39;re bored and work towards something that isn&#39;t boring.

You know whats not boring. Getting lots of capital and having a bunch of nice shit. You can even make your house a theme park like Michael Jackson. :rolleyes:

Why do they call it a class struggle? Because its tough, its not always fun, it can even be terrible at times. Looking to have fun at all times is not a theory, its a middle class kids solution to suburban boredom.

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by Marmot
How is it nonsense?

if the revolution isn&#39;t really against boredom, then what is its true goal?
How about worker control of the means of production or the overthrow of the capitalist state? I appreciate that they&#39;re not as vague or sexy as "overthrowing boredom" but I think I&#39;ll stick with them all the same.

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by ComradeOm+Mar 11 2006, 07:56 PM--> (ComradeOm @ Mar 11 2006, 07:56 PM)
Marmot
How is it nonsense?

if the revolution isn&#39;t really against boredom, then what is its true goal?
How about worker control of the means of production or the overthrow of the capitalist state? I appreciate that they&#39;re not as vague or sexy as "overthrowing boredom" but I think I&#39;ll stick with them all the same. [/b]
The worker wants to control the means of production and overthrow capitalism in order to fight against boredom.

If the worker takes the means of production, it is to work less and to have an abundance of resources. Basically, it is to live a more joyous life than the one in the capitalist paradigm.

Working 12 hours a day in a factory is boring.

[violencia.Proletariat]

The worker wants to control the means of production and overthrow capitalism in order to fight against boredom.

:lol: The worker overthrows capitalism to END his EXPLOITATION not because s/he was bored that day.


Working 12 hours a day in a factory is boring.

As is working 4. But its better than 12.

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 08:26 PM

The worker wants to control the means of production and overthrow capitalism in order to fight against boredom.



Working 12 hours a day in a factory is boring.



:lol: The worker overthrows capitalism to END his EXPLOITATION not because s/he was bored that day.


What is the capitalist exploitation?

The capitalist makes you work countless of hours for little material output. The worker doesn&#39;t wants to work that much because it is tiresome and boring.

Its not a difficult concept to understand chap.


As is working 4. But its better than 12.

As I said before, most boring work can be reduced significantly.

We pretty much agree in that&#33;

[tambourine_man]

it&#39;s really pretty disgusting how so many of you self-proclaimed "anti-lifestylists" so willingly and faithfully equate revolutionary "work" with work as defined in a traditional, constraining, unequal society.

as marmot has already stated, all "work" - tasks aimed towards satisfying individual or communal needs and desires - can be translated into nonrigid, pleasurable, self-satisfying activity. in a stateless, classless society, what else would you want?
does the idea that people will live purely for pleasure and happiness, and will be completely free of constraint & external authority, upset your noble, puritan consciences? or have you all simply accepted traditional methods as the only legitimate methods?
why should we aim to make people just a little less bored and alienated, when we can eliminate boredom and alienation altogether...

[violencia.Proletariat]

The capitalist makes you work countless of hours for little material output. The worker doesn&#39;t wants to work that much because it is tiresome and boring.

Of course its boring but thats not the workers main concern. The working class people I know are worried about putting food on the table, not boredom.

Workers want to end exploitation because what they produce is stolen from them, and they have no decision over the matter. They do not control their workplace or communities. Capitalists could make their workplaces a lot more "fun". So if thats the case then you would no longer want to destroy capitalism right?

Whats boring is subjective, maybe some workers find working that long fun.


As I said before, most boring work can be reduced significantly.

We pretty much agree in that&#33;

I&#39;d hope youd agree. But that wasnt my point, reducing work hours doesnt make work fun, it makes it more bearable. We cant have fun all the time, nothing would get produced.

[chuq]

I read the essay and why is this debate even going on? The essay is laughable at best and best used as toilet paper. But we explained boring and fun better than it has ever been explained.

Now revolution--keep doing it until it is done right. Opinions are like....... No one will convince a dedicated revolutionary that his/her beliefs are boring (damn there is that word again).

All I say is let us try any and all techniques until victory is ours.

[Djehuti]

Boredom is counter-revolutionary as the good ol&#39; situationists said, but so is crimethinc and their lifestylist hippie bs. BUT I actually find myself agreeing with the larger part of this specific article.

For example point number one.

"1. Make politics relevant to our everyday experience of life again. The farther away the object of our political concern, the less it will mean to us, the less real and pressing it will seem to us, and the more wearisome politics will be."

I totally agree. Build where your stand, struggle in your everyday life.

[Martin Blank]

Join us in making the "revolution" a game; a game played for the highest stakes of all, but a joyous, carefree game nonetheless&#33;

KISS&#33; MY&#33; A&#036;&#036;&#33;

This is not a game -- at least not to those of us whose lives are on the line. Revolution is about human lives; it is about the futures of billions. I have no tolerance for people like these. They need to just re-style their hair, put on their business suits and go join the establishment ... like they will in a few years anyway.

Miles

[red team]

Life is the ultimate game and you&#39;re the player. The problem is that we are forced to play a game that we don&#39;t particularly like. The Capitalist game goes something like this: He or she who has the most money and toys at the end wins. We all know there&#39;s an end to the game and you only get 1 life. You don&#39;t get bonus lives no matter how many points you collect. On a personal level "game over" is inevitable. What is in dispute is how we want to play the game. Revolution is about ripping out the game cartridge and labeled "Capitalism" and replacing it with another one called "Communism". :lol:

But, alas each player still only get 1 life per game and on average we only have 72 turns if you choose to play as a male.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Nadia C.
When you separate politics from the immediate, everyday experiences of individual men and women, it becomes completely irrelevant.

To those "individual men and women" who can&#39;t see past their own shoes, perhaps.

A revolutionary perspective necessarily means being able to see further than this evening&#39;s dummyvision schedule.


Whether we enjoy what we do to get food and shelter.

We usually don&#39;t. At best, it&#39;s barely tolerable.

Why do you think people buy lottery tickets? :lol:


Whether we feel like our daily interactions with our friends, neighbors, and coworkers are fulfilling.

Occasional "bright spots"...but mostly we&#39;re too busy or too damn tired for "fulfilling interactions".


Whether we have the opportunity to live each day the way we desire to.

Get real&#33; :lol:

The main strategic perspective for any sensible individual under capitalism is to avoid as many of the complete catastrophes as possible.

If you manage to avoid any wars or natural disasters, stay out of prison, and escape any financial responsibilities for others, you&#39;re doing about as well as can be reasonably expected.


And "politics" should consist not of merely discussing these questions, but of acting directly to improve our lives in the immediate present.

Apply for that "better" job? Move to a more "interesting" or "pleasant" city? Try drinking at a different bar?

There was a fellow back in SDS who coined a phrase to describe this sort of thing. He said it amounted to people trying to figure out how to redecorate their cells.


Acting in a way that is itself entertaining, exciting, joyous...

Like those people in the dummyvision commercials...romping hand-in-hand through the green fields of capitalism?

They look like they&#39;re really having a great time, don&#39;t they? :lol:


Never again shall we "sacrifice ourselves for the cause." For we ourselves, happiness in our own lives and the lives of our fellows, must be our cause&#33;

I&#39;m opposed to the rhetoric (and the mentality) of "sacrifice" myself.

But "happiness" under the despotism of capital does not seem to be something I was ever really capable of.

Just getting the "misery index" down to tolerable levels was the best I could ever do...save for those brief periods when I was unemployed with enough money in the bank not to have to sweat it.


After we make politics relevant and exciting, the rest will follow.

In revolutionary periods, politics is "relevant and exciting". In reactionary periods -- like this one -- it ain&#39;t nearly as much fun.

But, you know, it all really depends: do you really want to give in to the bastards who run things just because "things look especially grim"?

I don&#39;t.


But the foundation of our politics must be concrete: it must be immediate, it must be obvious to everyone why it is worth the effort, it must be fun in itself.

I don&#39;t think that&#39;s possible.

I have said in the past that whatever political work we decide to do ought to be political work that we enjoy doing because we&#39;re good at it.

I think that&#39;s needed in order to sustain a life-time&#39;s commitment.

But "fun"? Well, I think it&#39;s "fun" to think up and implement something that will genuinely weaken the despotism of capital. Their pain is my pleasure.


...entirely new political approaches and methods must be created.

Fine. What do you have in mind?

Every sensible revolutionary is "in the market" for a fresh idea that really works.

But you must actually come up with the idea, you know?


Enjoy yourselves&#33; There is never any excuse for being bored...or boring&#33;

Like beauty, it&#39;s in the mind of the beholder. Your "exciting activity" might well be intolerably boring to me...and vice versa.

We each have to "find our niche". :)


Join us in making the "revolution" a game; a game played for the highest stakes of all, but a joyous, carefree game nonetheless&#33;

I find it difficult to reconcile the idea of "being carefree" with the idea of being imprisoned, tortured or killed.

They don&#39;t seem to "fit together" very well.

Revolution is hard and dangerous...not attributes that one normally associates with "game-playing".

When people flooded into the streets of Petrograd in February of 1917, they were angry...not "joyous" or "carefree".

Some of them were massacred&#33;

But I will concede that it&#39;s highly unlikely that anyone was "bored".

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[bcbm]

Then why dont you go liberate yourself from life laugh.gif Everything is boring to the lifestylists.

I&#39;m not a lifestylist.



You arent fighting any battles with capitalism.

I didn&#39;t say I was.


Vandalism is not going to bring down capitalism

I didn&#39;t say it would.


its not revolutionary nor will it bring revolution.

I would say it depends on the vandalism, but, again, I didn&#39;t say otherwise.


What larger projects? Crimethinc DOES NOT take part in the class struggle. Most of them are against working&#33;

They have a number of projects going at any given moment. Usually community oriented things. I know a number of CI kids are working on large collective gardens and other community sustainability projects.


Most working class people in 1st world nations can read. In order to make a revolutionary society, they have to be based off ideas. When people read these theories they will grasp the "jargon" easily, its not hard. This is just a petty crimethinc excuse of being "boring". Words are not the reason there hasnt been a revolution.

As I said, it isn&#39;t just the word but their methods of "spreading" the words. I believe CI is right in that we need to make the connection between ideas and everyday life. Despite the exploitation and brutality people live with most of their lives, that connection doesn&#39;t seem to be there. Or at least the class consciousness one would expect if it was there hasn&#39;t materialized very well.


Working for what lifestylists think is a better future is not WORKING. To be a part of the working class you have to um, WORK&#33; Lifestylists visions are actually opposed to the working class. When they do their little vandalism they are in turn taking away the workers struggle and replacing it with their own. It&#39;s NOT a middle class kids, who does not want to work, decision as to how a WORKERS revolution is going to happen.

As I said in my first post, do you think Ex-Workers are working for a WORKERS revolution? I would doubt it. They&#39;re aiming for total social, political and economic revolution towards a society based on anarchism, situationism, dadaism and god knows what else. When they say revolution, they don&#39;t mean the same thing as you. Nonetheless, I think a lot of their projects have been positive for anarchist and other revolutionary ideas and they have done much to get community building taking place.

And, um, work sucks under any sort of capitalist system, so I don&#39;t think people wanting to not participate in THAT type of work should be held against them.


Really? And what did these protests do?

I don&#39;t recall that being the point.


I&#39;m not having a defeatist attitude I was being sarcastic. Improving the working conditions is completely realistic. But work is not "fun". But it has to be done.

Why can&#39;t work be fun?


You know whats not boring. Getting lots of capital and having a bunch of nice shit. You can even make your house a theme park like Michael Jackson. :rolleyes:


That sounds dreadfully boring.


Why do they call it a class struggle? Because its tough, its not always fun, it can even be terrible at times. Looking to have fun at all times is not a theory, its a middle class kids solution to suburban boredom.

Better looking for a solution than playing video games. I think you also make the mistake of taking all CI works at face value. They&#39;re eloquent propaganda designed to elicit the "baby steps" towards revolution. Why do you think DOWNOL is "for beginners?" I&#39;ve safely made the journey from CI and primitivism to hardcore class-struggle politics, I don&#39;t see why others can&#39;t do the same.

[Orthodox Marxist]

This is not a game -- at least not to those of us whose lives are on the line. Revolution is about human lives; it is about the futures of billions. I have no tolerance for people like these. They need to just re-style their hair, put on their business suits and go join the establishment ... like they will in a few years anyway.

Miles



I couldnt have said it better.

[violencia.Proletariat]

I&#39;m not a lifestylist.

But you support it...


I believe CI is right in that we need to make the connection between ideas and everyday life.

Yet they CAN&#39;T do that. It&#39;s one thing to suggest, another to criticize and not deliver.


Despite the exploitation and brutality people live with most of their lives, that connection doesn&#39;t seem to be there.

What the hell are you talking about? Exploitation is THERE, its in every proles life, each day.


I would doubt it. They&#39;re aiming for total social, political and economic revolution towards a society based on anarchism, situationism, dadaism and god knows what else.

How can they do that if they arent involved in production?


I think a lot of their projects have been positive for anarchist and other revolutionary ideas

I and many other say lifestylism is the reason anarchism is looked down upon today.


so I don&#39;t think people wanting to not participate in THAT type of work should be held against them.

And who are those who dont have to participate? Oh yeah, RICH PEOPLE. This clearly shows they arent a working class movement.


Why can&#39;t work be fun?

Because "fun" is subjective. If everything in life were focused around fun, we wouldnt be able to produce the materials to sustain that life.


That sounds dreadfully boring.

To you, but to Crimethinc, people should do what they think is fun. So what if thats fun to me? Are you gonna stop me?


Better looking for a solution than playing video games. I think you also make the mistake of taking all CI works at face value. They&#39;re eloquent propaganda designed to elicit the "baby steps" towards revolution. Why do you think DOWNOL is "for beginners?" I&#39;ve safely made the journey from CI and primitivism to hardcore class-struggle politics, I don&#39;t see why others can&#39;t do the same.

If your hardcore class struggle politics is Crimethinc, then your hopeless.

[black magick hustla]

Of course its boring but thats not the workers main concern. The working class people I know are worried about putting food on the table, not boredom.

Yes, but why?

Obviously, to most people survival is much more important than boredom-

However, why shouldn&#39;t the revolution aim for a world of pleasures?

Is it a sin to have those workers interact more with their family and friends?

I am not even a lifestylist&#33; I still understand the importance of class-struggle. However, I do realize that we should just throw away the morality of labor and sacrifice.




Workers want to end exploitation because what they produce is stolen from them, and they have no decision over the matter. They do not control their workplace or communities. Capitalists could make their workplaces a lot more "fun". So if thats the case then you would no longer want to destroy capitalism right?

The capitalist won&#39;t make it fun because it simply needs people doing extremely boring labor. The capitalist has created a whole artificial sector like the service sector just to sustain the capitalist system.

The capitalist also needs people working countless of hours in industry for little pay, because the capitalist&#39;s main concern is profit.

Capitalists want machines, not people.

As I said before, what is your problem with a society against alienation and for pleasure?



We cant have fun all the time, nothing would get produced.

Perhaps we can&#39;t have fun always, but we certainly can have much more fun than in capitalism.

[AK47]

I have always thought politics were only boring when they worked right.


Let us hope for a long and boring stretch of history with on wars to study, no major international scandals to learn about, no iconistic leaders to lead us into great empires, and no black ops coups to uncover. When this starts, we won&#33;

[bcbm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 02:15 PM
But you support it...
I do? Where?



Yet they CAN&#39;T do that. It&#39;s one thing to suggest, another to criticize and not deliver.

So if they aren&#39;t getting it done themselves, they can&#39;t say it needs to be done, or criticize previous efforts? That&#39;s stupid. If we follow that logic, you can&#39;t criticize CI either, since you haven&#39;t made a revolution. A valid point is a valid point, no matter who is making it.


What the hell are you talking about? Exploitation is THERE, its in every proles life, each day.

Did you read the fucking paragraph, or what?

"... we need to make the connection between ideas and everyday life. Despite the exploitation and brutality people live with most of their lives, that connection doesn&#39;t seem to be there."

I said exploitation was there, in every prole&#39;s life, each day. The problem is that the connection between the politics of removing that (ie communism) and the exploitation itself do not exist and we need to figure out how to make that connection apparent to workers everywhere. Get it?


How can they do that if they arent involved in production?

Only workers involved in production are eligible for decision making now? I believe that leaves about one-tenth of Americans with decision-making power in the revolution. That isn&#39;t what I am aiming for. I think all revolutionary minded individuals should have a say in how their communities are organized.


I and many other say lifestylism is the reason anarchism is looked down upon today.

Anarchism wasn&#39;t exactly popular before the 1990&#39;s when these guys came on the scene. Furthermore, the fact that they&#39;re involved in a shit-ton of community building work (ie, not just eating trash and dying their hair but, uh, working) makes me somewhat suspicious of the "lifestylist" claims being thrown around. Sounds like more newspeak to seperate and demonize (and that is indeed why it was created, by Bookchin, if I recall correctly).


And who are those who dont have to participate? Oh yeah, RICH PEOPLE. This clearly shows they arent a working class movement.

Do you really think every kid (or adult&#33;) who doesn&#39;t work and makes a living through alternative means is "rich?" Please. I know a number of kids who learned to eat out of dumpsters because, get this, THEY WERE TOO POOR TO BUY FOOD. Many of them have seen their parents work their entire lives and get jack. Why repeat that? Why work 9-5 and come home exhausted when you could spend all day building a cooperative garden or working in your area and actually creating community with all sorts of people? There are plenty of radical strategies that don&#39;t need to involve selling your labor and are hardly "lifestylism."



Because "fun" is subjective. If everything in life were focused around fun, we wouldnt be able to produce the materials to sustain that life.

Fair enough, but the point is that work does not have to be as bad as it is under capitalism. Agreed?


To you, but to Crimethinc, people should do what they think is fun. So what if thats fun to me? Are you gonna stop me?

Taking one little article from CI and trying to apply it across the board seems somewhat silly to me. There is more to their ideas then "Pro-fun, anti-boredom, whatever it means to you&#33;"


If your hardcore class struggle politics is Crimethinc, then your hopeless.

Once again, reading comprehension: learn it.

"I&#39;ve safely made the journey from CI and primitivism to hardcore class-struggle politics, I don&#39;t see why others can&#39;t do the same."

FROM in this sentence clearly implies that I have moved AWAY from CI politics and into more serious class-struggle politics. You seem to be mistaking my questioning of your arguments as unwaivering support for all things Crimethinc. There is a difference between understanding and supporting. I think I understand CI&#39;s ideas fairly well, and I think some of your interpretations are wrong and further, I think your ad hominem attacks against entire groups of people are unfounded. I know its trendy to demonize CI these days, but I think they&#39;ve done a lot of good, whether I agree with all of their ideas or not. Sorry. :rolleyes:

[violencia.Proletariat]

I do? Where?

Have you not been argueing in favor of this dumbthink essay in this thread?


So if they aren&#39;t getting it done themselves, they can&#39;t say it needs to be done, or criticize previous efforts?

Of course they can, but thats hypocrisy :(


The problem is that the connection between the politics of removing that (ie communism) and the exploitation itself do not exist and we need to figure out how to make that connection apparent to workers everywhere. Get it?

And tell me, what great thing does crimethinc propose that can do this? Lifestylism does not propose a realistic alternative for WORKING PEOPLE.


Only workers involved in production are eligible for decision making now?

Yes, if you have the ability to contribute to the means of production but dont do it, there is no reason why you should designate what happens with those goods.
Nor would the community want you in the commune.


I think all revolutionary minded individuals should have a say in how their communities are organized.[quote]

Crimethinc isnt revolutionary :(

[quote]Anarchism wasn&#39;t exactly popular before the 1990&#39;s when these guys came on the scene.

But it was a more defined and much more credible movement.


Furthermore, the fact that they&#39;re involved in a shit-ton of community building work (ie, not just eating trash and dying their hair but, uh, working) makes me somewhat suspicious of the "lifestylist" claims being thrown around.

You can keep suggesting that there making a difference, doesnt mean its tru.e


Do you really think every kid (or adult&#33;) who doesn&#39;t work and makes a living through alternative means is "rich?"

Yes lots of them are. But these kids dont really live off of nothing. They play the trainhopping game for a few years then quit. ;) It&#39;s about the equivalent to all the rich kids in 60&#39;s being "revolutionary", then going back home when the "game" is over.


THEY WERE TOO POOR TO BUY FOOD.

Yes, some people are too poor to buy food. Im not saying dumpster diving is a bad thing, but if you do this when you DON&#39;T need to I have to question your intentions when you try and relate it to revolution.


Why repeat that?

So eating out of a dumpster and not having a place to live is better? :blink: By supporting this bullshit as an alternative, you are taking an angry wage slave from the workplace where they can incite realistic change. You cant have a revolution when your revolutionaries have no relation to the means of production.


Why work 9-5 and come home exhausted when you could spend all day building a cooperative garden or working in your area and actually creating community with all sorts of people?

You guys will be working on it by yourselves, the working people your "helping out" dont get home till 5, or later :(


but the point is that work does not have to be as bad as it is under capitalism

Of course not. But this doesnt mean we should base a serious movement, with lives at stake, over a subjective concept and calling it a game.


Taking one little article from CI and trying to apply it across the board seems somewhat silly to me. There is more to their ideas then "Pro-fun, anti-boredom, whatever it means to you&#33;"

So what. I want to only pay attention to the fun part. I just killed you because it was fun. What are you gonna do about it? Better watch out, if you stop me I&#39;ll call you a Stalinist :o


"I&#39;ve safely made the journey from CI and primitivism to hardcore class-struggle politics, I don&#39;t see why others can&#39;t do the same."

Why the fucking hell would you do that when you can go straight to class struggle, WHICH IS WHAT IS RELEVANT TO WORKING PEOPLE.


I know its trendy to demonize CI these days

I think you mean its trendy to be CI these days. I know its always been big in the punk scene, with the crusties who&#39;d rather get pissed and ***** about animal rights all day than actually get a job and be a part of class war.

[bcbm]

Have you not been argueing in favor of this dumbthink essay in this thread?

No. I was questioning some of your arguments, not really arguing in favor of anything.


Of course they can, but thats hypocrisy

http://www.crimethinc.com/library/english/practical.html ;)

But seriously, this brings us right back to my second statement: "If we follow that logic, you can&#39;t criticize CI either, since you haven&#39;t made a revolution. A valid point is a valid point, no matter who is making it."


And tell me, what great thing does crimethinc propose that can do this?

You&#39;re misrepresenting my position again. I&#39;m not saying CI has the answers, I&#39;m saying their opinion is valid: we haven&#39;t made this connection yet and we aren&#39;t going to get anywhere until we do.


Lifestylism does not propose a realistic alternative for WORKING PEOPLE.

There&#39;s that again. <_<


Yes, if you have the ability to contribute to the means of production but dont do it, there is no reason why you should designate what happens with those goods.

Obviously workplaces would be worker managed. But I am not talking about just workplaces, I am talking about entire communities. The "means of production" have, for the most part, left the United States for other areas, however there are still plenty of people left working (or not) who have a stake in the community after the revolution and would presumably have something to contribute, even if it isn&#39;t in terms of "production." Do you think those people should be denied a part in decisions regarding the community as a whole?

I also see other problems with only workers running the means of production having a say. There should be some community, or larger, say in what is produced, or else there may be quite a bit of things not needed being produced, while necessary items are neglected. But that is another discussion.


Nor would the community want you in the commune.

Now we&#39;ve moved from those who work in production to the entire community... the two aren&#39;t the same.


Crimethinc isnt revolutionary

I tend to view all of those wanting to completely destroy modern society and replacing it with something resembling anarchy revolutionary, even if some of their ideas are a bit off.


But it was a more defined and much more credible movement.

I&#39;d say anarchism has gained leaps and bounds since then and is more popular and credible then ever.


You can keep suggesting that there making a difference, doesnt mean its tru.e

The same applies to your claims about them being lazy do-nothings who haven&#39;t accomplished shit. I&#39;m only judging what I&#39;ve seen and been told by those involved, you&#39;re more than welcome to go to these communities and find out for yourself.


Yes lots of them are. But these kids dont really live off of nothing. They play the trainhopping game for a few years then quit. It&#39;s about the equivalent to all the rich kids in 60&#39;s being "revolutionary", then going back home when the "game" is over.

That is true for some of them, I definitely agree. But not all CI kids are trainhoppers (or at least not in the way you&#39;re implying) and not all of them (I wouldn&#39;t say lots, or few, as its impossible to really know) "quit" or come from "rich families." I&#39;ve known such kids (and adults&#33;) from all backgrounds and plenty of them seemed sincere. Plenty of scumbags too.


Yes, some people are too poor to buy food. Im not saying dumpster diving is a bad thing, but if you do this when you DON&#39;T need to I have to question your intentions when you try and relate it to revolution.

I don&#39;t HAVE to dive, but I do it because the food we be wasted otherwise and its free, meaning less money I have to put into things I disagree with. I am not saying everyone should do it, or that it is revolutionary, but to suggest there is no reason to do it unless you have to is absurd.


So eating out of a dumpster and not having a place to live is better?

Depending on the individual situation, yes, in some cases it is. And there are more options than "work = food, home" and "no work = dumpster, homeless."


By supporting this bullshit as an alternative, you are taking an angry wage slave from the workplace where they can incite realistic change. You cant have a revolution when your revolutionaries have no relation to the means of production.

The vast majority of the people in the first world have NO RELATION to the means of production, or at least as much relation as any CIer. I think doing community-building work outside of jobs can be just as powerful and important.


You guys will be working on it by yourselves, the working people your "helping out" dont get home till 5, or later

Not everyone has a job and not everybody works every day of the week. People with regular jobs can come by on their days off, stop by after work or contribute in any number of other ways. Community gardens have been popular in lots of poorer, working-class areas.


Of course not. But this doesnt mean we should base a serious movement, with lives at stake, over a subjective concept and calling it a game.

I&#39;m not suggesting otherwise. My point is that I don&#39;t think work absolutely must be dreadfully tedious and boring; there is a great deal of room for improvement.


So what. I want to only pay attention to the fun part. I just killed you because it was fun. What are you gonna do about it? Better watch out, if you stop me I&#39;ll call you a Stalinist

:rolleyes: You can only pay attention to "the fun part" but trying to apply it while ignoring other CI ideas and writings in order to prove CI wrong, or whatever, is intellectually dishonest.


Why the fucking hell would you do that when you can go straight to class struggle, WHICH IS WHAT IS RELEVANT TO WORKING PEOPLE.

Are you taking the piss or are you really this fucking dense? I&#39;m saying that I, me, myself, personally was, at one time, involved in CI-type politics and ideas and, since then, my political ideas have changed and moved into a class-struggle analysis. There is no "why would you do that," that&#39;s just how it fucking happened, and I&#39;m saying other people could make the same path, which isn&#39;t to say THAT IS THE ONLY PATH. Fucking hell.


I think you mean its trendy to be CI these days. I know its always been big in the punk scene, with the crusties who&#39;d rather get pissed and ***** about animal rights all day than actually get a job and be a part of class war.

I know more anarchists (not to mention people of other political persuasions) that complain about CI (constantly and consistently) than actual CIers. That is what I was addressing. I don&#39;t think CI has been (or is) all bad.

[red team]

I think you mean its trendy to be CI these days. I know its always been big in the punk scene, with the crusties who&#39;d rather get pissed and ***** about animal rights all day than actually get a job and be a part of class war.


Aren&#39;t we overlooking something. Not all people who want a job can get a job. It&#39;s all part of the profit maximization of businesses. This is basic business administration 101. You maximize your profit by making the existing worker labour more intensively while firing the ones that are "redundant". I suppose those that are now "redundant" are privileged crusties eh? :lol:

Also, I&#39;m curious what you think of term "work". What is your definition of work. What is the entire justification for work? Is work a means to an end or an end in itself? If you think work is an end in itself then you&#39;re a Protestant no matter how much you wish to deny it. Work is simply for material ends. There&#39;s nothing sacred about work. If you uphold the "sacredness" of work you get stupid shit like people working in pointless, meaningless jobs for the sake of some meaningless, pointless "work ethic". After the revolution you could simply substitute "Marxist work ethic" for "Protestant work ethic" and you&#39;ll get the same crappy rat race we have now. Worth fighting for eh? :lol:

[violencia.Proletariat]

But seriously, this brings us right back to my second statement: "If we follow that logic, you can&#39;t criticize CI either, since you haven&#39;t made a revolution. A valid point is a valid point, no matter who is making it."

Of course I can criticize CI. Historical evidence no where points to lifestylism as a potential for anti-capitalist revolution, it has always been class struggle movements.


There&#39;s that again. <_<

Tell me, how do they help working people? How does a community garden fight to abolish wage slavery?


The "means of production" have, for the most part, left the United States for other areas

Manufacturing of textiles has, but the means of productions are still in this country, we wouldnt be an industrialized country if they werent.


however there are still plenty of people left working (or not)

If they can work, they must do their share. I&#39;m not supporting people who sit on their asses.


would presumably have something to contribute, even if it isn&#39;t in terms of "production."

Those who cant work can do what they can. I&#39;m not saying everyone has to work in a factory, but we cant have people be sitting around pretending to be "artists", or whatever, and say they are actually contributing.


Do you think those people should be denied a part in decisions regarding the community as a whole?

Yes, if they have the ability to do productive labor, which the community will decide and divide up, and they do not take part.

Capitalists live in cities, does that mean they should have a part in the decision making in that city?


I also see other problems with only workers running the means of production having a say.

The communities would have control over this. Not the wokers in one factory would decide soley where their goods go. The retired and those who can not work will still have say.


Now we&#39;ve moved from those who work in production to the entire community... the two aren&#39;t the same.

All those who can work would work. That would be large majorities of the community.


I tend to view all of those wanting to completely destroy modern society and replacing it with something resembling anarchy revolutionary, even if some of their ideas are a bit off.

Crimethinc doesnt want to destroy modern society, they want to live in a dual power to it, thinking their alternative will win out. I find this completely unrealistic and pure fantasy. Of course time will tell, but it&#39;s already not looking good for them.


I&#39;d say anarchism has gained leaps and bounds since then and is more popular and credible then ever.

What is anarchism? "It&#39;s whatever you want it to be" according to crimethinc anyways. I&#39;m sorry but thats not the case. Their lifestylism is very popular amongst teenage counterculture.

Anarchism on the other hand, platformism that is, is actually realistic. We platformists are now stereotyped as naive kids because the common person doesnt know theres anything more to anarchism than lifestylism. :(


The same applies to your claims about them being lazy do-nothings who haven&#39;t accomplished shit

What are you referring to? When I was speaking theoretically in the future? We dont live in a revolutionary society so that doesnt apply to this.


you&#39;re more than welcome to go to these communities and find out for yourself.

What communities? You do know that many places have community gardens that arent related to anarchism or crimethinc, right? It&#39;s not as if crimethinc is doing something that hasnt been done before, hell its been done in capitalism with no revolutionary intentions.


I don&#39;t HAVE to dive, but I do it because the food we be wasted otherwise and its free, meaning less money I have to put into things I disagree with.

And I&#39;m not criticizing people for this. It&#39;s a free meal&#33; But it&#39;s not revolution or revolutionary.


The vast majority of the people in the first world have NO RELATION to the means of production

People who work in the service industry are still wage slaves.


I think doing community-building work outside of jobs can be just as powerful and important.

I might agree depending on what "community-building" involves. But most proles dont have time to community build, they have to work.


Community gardens have been popular in lots of poorer, working-class areas.

They are popular in rich areas too. They dont however increase class consciencess or necessarily build revolutionary collectives of people.
As I&#39;ve said, ordinary pro capitalist workers take part in community gardens, but that doesnt make them want revolution, or bring them closer.


You can only pay attention to "the fun part" but trying to apply it while ignoring other CI ideas and writings in order to prove CI wrong, or whatever, is intellectually dishonest.

I&#39;m just a common person, I can pick and choose what I please&#33; You said its a game of fun, well let me have fun damnit :lol:


I know more anarchists (not to mention people of other political persuasions) that complain about CI (constantly and consistently) than actual CIers.

Most likely because those people have some sense&#33; Your obviously going to get more criticism from people outside these organizations than from those who activily participate in them.

[bcbm]

Of course I can criticize CI. Historical evidence no where points to lifestylism as a potential for anti-capitalist revolution, it has always been class struggle movements.

And you can scroll back a post or two to see what I think about your claims of "lifestylism" as applying to CI as a whole.


Tell me, how do they help working people? How does a community garden fight to abolish wage slavery?

Having free vegetables and other produce available in your community certainly helps working people. A community garden can be used to build strong community ties, which are absolutely neccessary in a revolutionary situation.


Manufacturing of textiles has, but the means of productions are still in this country, we wouldnt be an industrialized country if they werent.

We&#39;re a post-industrial country. We still have some industry in the US, but much of it is no longer here. The economy has shifted towards the service industry.


If they can work, they must do their share. I&#39;m not supporting people who sit on their asses.


You&#39;re quoting things out of context and making responses to them that don&#39;t make any sense.


Those who cant work can do what they can. I&#39;m not saying everyone has to work in a factory, but we cant have people be sitting around pretending to be "artists", or whatever, and say they are actually contributing.

If they really are artists, is that okay? I&#39;m not suggesting any different, I&#39;m saying the majority of the people in this country are no longer working directly with the means of production.


Yes, if they have the ability to do productive labor, which the community will decide and divide up, and they do not take part.

You&#39;re not understanding what I was saying. I&#39;m not talking about people who aren&#39;t doing anything, I&#39;m talking about people who are not currently working with the means of production.


All those who can work would work. That would be large majorities of the community.

Again, you missed what I was saying. Yes, I agree.


Crimethinc doesnt want to destroy modern society, they want to live in a dual power to it, thinking their alternative will win out. I find this completely unrealistic and pure fantasy. Of course time will tell, but it&#39;s already not looking good for them.

Hmm. My readings of CI literature has suggested they want to destroy modern society. They themselves say so, quite clearly.


What is anarchism? "It&#39;s whatever you want it to be" according to crimethinc anyways.

No it isn&#39;t. They have two essays detailing exactly what they think anarchism is, and it isn&#39;t "whatever you want it to be."


Anarchism on the other hand, platformism that is, is actually realistic. We platformists are now stereotyped as naive kids because the common person doesnt know theres anything more to anarchism than lifestylism.

I&#39;d say most people have never had a clue what anarchism meant. Before lifestylism, anarchism was murder, chaos, etc, but none of that was true either.


What are you referring to? When I was speaking theoretically in the future? We dont live in a revolutionary society so that doesnt apply to this.

I&#39;m referring to your repeated claims about what CI is today.


What communities? You do know that many places have community gardens that arent related to anarchism or crimethinc, right?

Yes, I do. So presumably I am talking about those communities with community gardens started by CI affiliated individuals with revolutionary intentions, ja?


And I&#39;m not criticizing people for this. It&#39;s a free meal&#33; But it&#39;s not revolution or revolutionary.

I agree.


People who work in the service industry are still wage slaves.


Duh. But they aren&#39;t working with the means of production, so clearly workers besides those working with the means of production will need to be participating in a revolution.


I might agree depending on what "community-building" involves. But most proles dont have time to community build, they have to work.

Community building involves, um, starting to give a shit about your neighbors and the area you live in, in order to try and improve it? If most proles don&#39;t have time to community build, how are they going to find time to, you know, organize a revolution?


They are popular in rich areas too. They dont however increase class consciencess or necessarily build revolutionary collectives of people.
As I&#39;ve said, ordinary pro capitalist workers take part in community gardens, but that doesnt make them want revolution, or bring them closer.


I agree. My point was that they can be used by revolutionaries in a revolutionary manner and that some CI-types are doing this, and trying to build things. Obviously they are not the solution in and of themselves, they need to be combined with other efforts, as most things do.


I&#39;m just a common person

Shouldn&#39;t you be working? :rolleyes:


Most likely because those people have some sense&#33; Your obviously going to get more criticism from people outside these organizations than from those who activily participate in them.


Bashing entire groups with sweeping generalizations and dismissing EVERYTHING they do doesn&#39;t sound very sensical.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by black banner black [email protected] 14 2006, 01:47 PM




And you can scroll back a post or two to see what I think about your claims of "lifestylism" as applying to CI as a whole.

CI denies ALL THEORY. The only option they take is lifestylism.


Having free vegetables and other produce available in your community certainly helps working people.

I was referring to the revolutionary context, this is rather obvious. The vegetables arent free however, they require labor, which is time.


community garden can be used to build strong community ties, which are absolutely neccessary in a revolutionary situation.

As I&#39;ve already stated, it can create a group space, it doesnt necessarly make any "ties" nor does it increase class conciousness.


We&#39;re a post-industrial country. We still have some industry in the US, but much of it is no longer here. The economy has shifted towards the service industry.

So there are no more mining, construction, farming means in this country? :rolleyes: The US bourgeois has done us a favor by knocking down all the old mills in a sense, we can build efficient new ones when the time comes.


You&#39;re quoting things out of context and making responses to them that don&#39;t make any sense.

No I&#39;m not. You obviously think people who dont work (as I&#39;ve already stated this doesnt apply to those who CAN&#39;T) can make community decisions.


I&#39;m not suggesting any different, I&#39;m saying the majority of the people in this country are no longer working directly with the means of production.

Which would obviously change after the revolution. The necessary work with the means of production would be split up. Luxuries seem like they will be voluntary, it all depends on how many people we need to do what.

This is not an excuse to do nothing.


My readings of CI literature has suggested they want to destroy modern society.

I&#39;m sure they do. Through a dual power, which is an unrealistic, unpratical, downright stupid idea.


No it isn&#39;t.

Then why do they say it is?


I&#39;d say most people have never had a clue what anarchism meant.

I agree, and thats why I&#39;m opposed to crimethinc pushing more people away from what anarchism really is.


Before lifestylism, anarchism was murder, chaos

Before lifestylism, anarchism was platformism. It still is.


So presumably I am talking about those communities with community gardens started by CI affiliated individuals with revolutionary intentions, ja?

How is it revolutionary? Sure it makes community space, but a garden is not class struggle. It&#39;s not revolutionary to grow your own food.


But they aren&#39;t working with the means of production, so clearly workers besides those working with the means of production will need to be participating in a revolution.

Never said that. Service industry jobs won&#39;t really exist after the revolution, people will work more with the means of production. Little work for the average person really.


If most proles don&#39;t have time to community build, how are they going to find time to, you know, organize a revolution?

I&#39;ve never heard of a revolution being "organized". It&#39;s usually more spontaneous, its not organized by a small group of people. Besides, before a likely revolution in the advanced capitalist countries there will probably be mass layoffs. Now this is where your community building can be good. But again, a garden is not class struggle.


My point was that they can be used by revolutionaries in a revolutionary manner and that some CI-types are doing this

I would disagree. Many people might want a community garden, but just because it has revolutionary messages with it doesnt mean those people will agree with that part. Making a garden is not revolutionary, and I doubt people are going to associate it with any kind of revolution unless they are already aware of class.


Shouldn&#39;t you be working? :rolleyes:

Devil&#39;s advocate :)


Bashing entire groups with sweeping generalizations and dismissing EVERYTHING they do doesn&#39;t sound very sensical.

I&#39;m not really dismissing what they do. Community gardens arent a BAD idea. But I am dismissing the ORGANIZATION and it&#39;s overall system and aims.

[black magick hustla]

It is utterly disgusting how people like nate advocate the abolition of any sense of ludicrity in order to replace it with a boring, dry, and alienated conception of life. :(

We see him complaining about a group of people who just want to have fun.


To him, there is no space for ludicrity in the revolutionary project.

After all, the anarchist advocates a workerist revolution, thus he advocates work as an end in itself.


He grips contemptuously the anarchist label for himself, for only the specialists of the revolution that follow the bakuninist heritage can call themselves anarchists&#33;

How dare those petty bourgeois lifestylists call themselves anarchists?


work work work fucking work&#33;

What a load of pretentious bullshit. :angry:

[bcbm]

CI denies ALL THEORY.

Waiting for quotes on that, still, actually.


So there are no more mining, construction, farming means in this country?

I didn&#39;t say they all were gone, I said the economy has shifted and much of the means of production are now located elsewhere.


No I&#39;m not.

Yes you are. You do it several times in this post, too.


You obviously think people who dont work (as I&#39;ve already stated this doesnt apply to those who CAN&#39;T) can make community decisions.

No, and I&#39;ve never stated so.


This is not an excuse to do nothing.

Not an excuse to work some shit job either.


I&#39;m sure they do. Through a dual power, which is an unrealistic, unpratical, downright stupid idea.

Back this up with actual quotes.


Then why do they say it is?

They don&#39;t. I already mentioned they have articles dealing with what it is, specifically.


Before lifestylism, anarchism was platformism. It still is.

Another out of context reply that makes no sense.


How is it revolutionary? Sure it makes community space, but a garden is not class struggle. It&#39;s not revolutionary to grow your own food.

I didn&#39;t say it was revolutionary, read what I wrote again.


I&#39;ve never heard of a revolution being "organized". It&#39;s usually more spontaneous, its not organized by a small group of people.

Organization has to occur before a revolution for it to take place, or its doomed to failure. Spontaneous uprisings are great as a catalyst, but I&#39;ve yet to see any prove sustainable.


I would disagree. Many people might want a community garden, but just because it has revolutionary messages with it doesnt mean those people will agree with that part. Making a garden is not revolutionary, and I doubt people are going to associate it with any kind of revolution unless they are already aware of class.

As I said, I think it can be used by revolutionaries to further specific things (ie community) and thus has revolutionary potential in that way.


I&#39;m not really dismissing what they do. Community gardens arent a BAD idea. But I am dismissing the ORGANIZATION and it&#39;s overall system and aims.

You were dismissing a lot more than that, or are just confused, as the actual CI "organization" is tiny.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Waiting for quotes on that, still, actually.

Ask and you shall recieve, these are just a few that caught my attention,

"any time you by-pass ridiculous regulations when no ones looking, your an anarchist"

"the root of anarchism is the simple impulse to diy"

"the renegades who painted their faces and threw tea in Boston harbor, and all others who took matters into their own hands, they were anarchists"

"anarchy is a mode of being, a matter of responding to conditions and relating to others, a class of human behavior...and not the working class&#33;"

"forget about the history of anarchism as an idea-forget the bearded guys"

"this is not about theories"

http://www.crimethinc.info/media/fighting_for_our_lives.pdf

According to this garbage you "live" anarchy, there is no such thing as anarchism.

THIS IS THE BIGGEST PILE OF HORSE SHIT I&#39;VE EVER SEEN FROM A SO CALLED ANARCHIST ORGANIZATION IN MY LIFE. I am no longer responding to this thread, these quotes should be enough for any sensible person to throw this filth out.


I said the economy has shifted and much of the means of production are now located elsewhere.

They arent. Quite a bit of manufacturing of textile goods is being relocated but the means of production still exist in America, do you think we import all of our food?


Not an excuse to work some shit job either.

So proles just waste their time working shitty jobs :rolleyes:


If you support organizations that PUBLISH things such as this from their collectives, your not an anarchist, your a dumbass. :angry:

[bcbm]

That piece is an introductory work designed to draw people into anarchist ideas by showing they aren&#39;t crazy, scary or about murder and chaos. It isn&#39;t a work of heavy theory. :rolleyes:



They arent. Quite a bit of manufacturing of textile goods is being relocated but the means of production still exist in America do you think we import all of our food?

AGAIN, I did NOT say they were ALL moved, I said the economy shifted and most people are not working directly with the means of production. And a lot of food is imported, though US agriculture is heavily subsidized, which is all that allows us to keep up locally.


So proles just waste their time working shitty jobs

Yes, most jobs under a capitalist economy, especially those available to proles, are shit.

[violencia.Proletariat]

That piece is an introductory work designed to draw people into anarchist ideas by showing they aren&#39;t crazy, scary or about murder and chaos. It isn&#39;t a work of heavy theory. :rolleyes:

THEY COMPLETELY DENY THEORY&#33; This is a shitty excuse, they are not "ushering" people in the easy way and showing them Bakunin, Kropotkin, etc later, they are denying theory period&#33;


Yes, most jobs under a capitalist economy, especially those available to proles, are shit.

The point I was getting to was that they HAVE NO CHOICE. You seem to not be grasping the basic theory of wage slavery, I guess its the lifestylism.

[bcbm]

The point I was getting to was that they HAVE NO CHOICE. You seem to not be grasping the basic theory of wage slavery

Not all working-class people have NO CHOICE. Many people are in that situation, but not everyone is, and the point I was making is that I see nothing wrong with people who can get by without working a job choosing not to work.


I guess its the lifestylism.

Ad hominem. And I&#39;m not a lifestylist. How many fucking times do I need to explain my position in this argument, since you don&#39;t seem to be getting it?

[citizen_snips]

Personally, I fucking love the old guys with beards. If I make a webpage or bunch of pamphlets ever, it will celebrate old guys with beards and have slogans like "forget the cringeworthy fools at crimethinc"&#33;

More seriously, they say that socialists and communists bore the workers. What about them? It&#39;s probably less a case of their being boring than being intensely irritating and also very condescending.