The end of FARC?

[Karl Marx's Camel]

The 70-member La Gaitana company of the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC, handed over 63 weapons and a small aircraft Tuesday during a ceremony near Alvarado, a town 50 miles west of Bogota.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060308/ap_on_...wN5bnN1YmNhdA-- (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060308/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/colombia_rebels;_ylt=Aky.tf_D5vBbzq3FsB1VaVy3IxIF; _ylu=X3oDMTBjMHVqMTQ4BHNlYwN5bnN1YmNhdA--)

[BattleOfTheCowshed]

Its only 70 people out of an army of 12,000. Why would it be the end for FARC?

[FULL METAL JACKET]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2006, 02:27 PM
Its only 70 people out of an army of 12,000. Why would it be the end for FARC?
Many soldiers will follow. All those right-wing groups thought it was unthinkable to give in to surrender but once a few started many followed.

[TC]

Thats stupid its just a drop in the bucket it means nothing. Similar numbers of government soldiers often get killed in single battles.



Many soldiers will follow. All those right-wing groups thought it was unthinkable to give in to surrender but once a few started many followed.


The paramilitaries didn't 'surrender', the decomissioned themselves and joined the government forces when their candidate, Uribe, won the scam elections. The FARC is more than thirty years old and stronger than ever, theres no reason to think this changes anything.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

The FARC is more than thirty years old and stronger than ever

How have they become "stronger than ever"? In terms of battle experience? Equipment?


I've read that, a few years ago, FARC numbered 17,000. So obviously not stronger in numbers.

[McLeft]

I personally don't like FARC, they are notorious and they kill innocent civilians everyday, i think they got the wrong end of the sitck of what Marx actually wrote, they don't know what Marxism is, they just want to come to power at any cost, no matter what, even if it involves mass killing. I would want a colombia free of guerrillas and paramilitaries, free of violence and obviously a colombia headed by a Leftist government like the PDI (the mayor of Bogota actually belongs to the PDI, he is very popular among the elcetorate) Down with the FARC.

and as to whether this is their end, I hope it is the beginning of a fruitful end! I'm sorry but they musunderstood the whole ideology of what Marxism actually is. I look at it this way, if 70 surrendered, others will follow.

[TC]

How have they become "stronger than ever"? In terms of battle experience? Equipment?


I've read that, a few years ago, FARC numbered 17,000. So obviously not stronger in numbers.



these are not official numbers though they're just gross estimates, often they write numbers like 12,000 13,000 15,000 17,000 20,000 but its not clear where they get those figures from.

http://www.isn.ethz.ch/news/sw/details.cfm?id=14921 (reports Farc 'stronger than ever' and estimatees their numbers from 13,000 to 17,000 from about a week and a half ago)

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle....&archived=False (http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2006-03-07T220700Z_01_N07161425_RTRUKOC_0_US-COLOMBIA-REBELS.xml&archived=False) (this is a story on exactly the same event but it quotes the FARCs numbers at 17,000).

[violencia.Proletariat]

Are you sure you/the writer didnt get this mixed up with the ELN? The ELN is in surredering talks.

[Cult of Reason]

A question now from one who is ignorant: what ideological difference is there between ELN and FARC? I have been under the impression that they are both Marxist, at least. Or are they seperate for non-ideological reasons?

[fernando]

For some reason all the interpretations of Marxism and all the movements remind me of this bit from The Life of Brian in which you have the People's Front of Judea and the Judean People's Front...

[Phalanx]

I think the ELN is more religious-based, whereas FARC is focused largely on pure Marxism.

[Edelweiss]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 12:21 AM
For some reason all the interpretations of Marxism and all the movements remind me of this bit from The Life of Brian in which you have the People's Front of Judea and the Judean People's Front...
Oh, what a coincident! What do you they are parodying? :P

[TC]

The ELN has never been in 'surrender talks', they entertain ceasefire dialog with the central government whereas the FARC refuses any ceasefire discussion.

They're not religion based. The ideological differences are less practical, more historical. The FARC came from Maoist roots and helped to develop 'Bolivarianism' as a pan-Latin American variant of Maoism (Their political front aside from the Colombian Communist Party was called the '"the Bolivarian Movement for a New Colombia.'). The ELN on the other hand was a Cuban supported communist guerilla army and took ideological and political leadership from Cuba, which is why they use Cuban style communist flags (red over black horizontally divided with he initials of their organization printed in white), and like the Cuban revolutionaries and the Cuban inspired revolutionaries in central america, they tolerated but do not endorse psudo-catholic 'revolution theology.'

[chebol]

What a load of nonsense! It would be nice if someone here actually went and found out SOMETHING about the FARC-EP and ELN before posting (and, yes, I know some of you do, but this thread is awful).

The FARC and ELN were formed out of the bands of liberal and communist guerrillas who did not accept the militarist National Front governemnt of the Liberal and Conservative parties in the wake of the violence that wracked Colombia during the early part of the C20.

The majority of these bands came from the independent communities in rural colombia, trying to exist outside of the terror and violence that had plagued the country for years. On May 27, 1964, the government forces attacked Marquetalia, one of these areas, and the FARC , the ELN, and other groups were formed in response, to defend peasants and workers from this violence.

The FARC-EP are not "pure Marxists" (and what is this anyway?), they are not Maoists either. Nor are they some kind of horrible military outfit, trying, at all costs to take power. Feel free to criticise their methodology and theory, but get it right. They, are, however, guided in their struggle by marxist theory- what form that takes has changed over the years.

The ELN had some support from Cuba early on, but that has long been ceased. They also have an historical connection with liberation theology, especially through their one-time leader Father Camilo Torres, and from time to time have been described as "guevarists" due to their adherence to foco-ism. But they have long been on the margins of the insurgency, and their current moves towards peace talks are related to that weakness, combined with pressure from Cuba and Venezuela to end the guerrilla war and place more emphasis on the grass-roots movements (including not only the unions, but also peasant organisations, students, and the Boloivarian Movement for a New Colombia). The FARC-EP are also involved in these movements, but refuse to end their fight, correctly recognising that to do so would be to abandon the Colombian population to what is essentially a proto-fascist state and would set back the struggle by a hundred years.

This doesn't mean that they are opposed to peaceful solutions. On the contrary, the major peace initiatives over the past decades have come from the FARC, and they have been repeatedly betrayed by the government. In the 80's they took part in the UP political party's attempt to run in elections, calling a ceasefire, and raising the issue of disarmament. The candidates and leaders of the UP were massacred in their THOUSANDS by government forces and their proxies. There were negotiations in the late 90's, and again, under the cover of talking peace, the Colombian government and military initiated "Plan Colombia", eventually betraying the peace process, the FARC, and the colombian people in the interests of more years of all-out war.

Who are the people who massacre men women and children- sometimes with chainsaws? Certainly not the FARC. The rightwing AUC paramilitaries are. They're also tight with the government and the army. Many AUC commanders are former army officers, there are accusations that some members are still in the army, they have often worked in tandem with the army, and they, with the army and government, are responsible for the VAST majority of cocaine production in the country, as well as heroin.

The FARC want peace. But they don't trust the government to allow it- especially not the government of Alvaro Uribe, whose father was a drug-lord killed by the FARC. Uribe also has long-term connections with the paramilitaries, and was a close friend of notorious narco Pablo Escobar, who funded many of the 'projects' Uribe started in Antioquia state, particularly Medellin.

The AUC who are "giving themselves up" are simply handing in arms, getting new arms and being set up as a new "civil militia"- essentially the same thing. And the same thing happened before with the previous paramilitary organisation, the Convivirs.


I would want a colombia free of guerrillas and paramilitaries, free of violence and obviously a colombia headed by a Leftist government

So do the FARC-EP, comrade. But they know that the government, paras and army won't allow that to happen.

Down with the FARC??? I think not comrade, I think not. Go do some serious study of the situation before you go making these kind of statements and assertions.

http://www.farcep.org/pagina_ingles/
http://www.farcep.org/

[chebol]

Furthermore, judging from this paragraph of the article on the matter, I am regarding this as a piece of Black Ops until otherwise indicated.

"Colombian Peace Commissioner Luis Carlos Restrepo, who attended the disarmament ceremony, provided few details about the guerrilla platoon’s history or its decision to desert, saying only that the rebels operated in the central province of Tolima."

Especially when they spin THIS bullshit! 23,000??!?!???!

"In exchange for renouncing violence, each of the combatants will receive a monthly stipend of around $180 and amnesty from prosecution. The benefits are identical to those received by 23,000 paramilitary fighters who have disarmed as part of a peace deal between the government and right-wing militias." :lol:

[Janus]

I seriously doubt that this will have any major effect on FARC. It's just one small group out of an army of around 12,000-13,000. Just because the AUC is "disarming" doesn't mean that FARC will reciprocate. The ELN is currently negotiating with the Colombian government but I have yet to see FARC go that path which I doubt they will.

Chebol, I'm sure that the FARC website will provide some good information but do you really see that website as a good, neutral, and unbiased source? Just wondering 'cause the news coming out of Colombia seems to be controlled by the government there.

[chebol]

I'm not suggesting it would be 'unbiased'. On the contrary. But where better to start finding out about the horse than in his mouth.

[fernando]

Originally posted by Malte+Mar 9 2006, 01:14 AM--> (Malte @ Mar 9 2006, 01:14 AM)
[email protected] 9 2006, 12:21 AM
For some reason all the interpretations of Marxism and all the movements remind me of this bit from The Life of Brian in which you have the People's Front of Judea and the Judean People's Front...
Oh, what a coincident! What do you they are parodying? :P [/b]
I know what they are parodying, but all this stuff in real life just seems like the parody in my mind at the moment

[McLeft]

The FARC-EP are not "pure Marxists" (and what is this anyway?), they are not Maoists either. Nor are they some kind of horrible military outfit, trying, at all costs to take power. Feel free to criticise their methodology and theory, but get it right. They, are, however, guided in their struggle by marxist theory- what form that takes has changed over the years.

So you're saying that they are fighting a struggle right? Their initial cause was good, people supported them during "La Violencia" but now they have gone too far, filling up bikes with explosives so that when a child rides it he explodes, kidnapping a woman and wrapping explosives around her neck so that when the clock reaches 0 her head blows off, raiding farms and threatening to kill a baby in front of a poor family, then severing the child's genitals in front of his mother and then killing him in front of his mother, then grabbing his older sister and killing her in front of her mother and then killing the mother in front of her husband and then killing the husband! and yet you are saying that they are not just some kind of military outfit. then what are they? a peaceful guerrilla? I don't think so, I lived in Colombia a few years ago and i myself have witnessed these similar extortionate acts, the news show attrocities like these daily, the FARC are ruthless, my friend you seem to be very well misinformed.


The FARC-EP are also involved in these movements, but refuse to end their fight, correctly recognising that to do so would be to abandon the Colombian population to what is essentially a proto-fascist state and would set back the struggle by a hundred years.

So the FARC reckon that by ending 40 years of violence against the people they have so violently killed and abused would be abandoning them? I'm sorry but how can they expect to be a popular government when 100% of the population disapproves of them, the people are tired, they want no more violence, on average FARC destry at least 1 village a month, now is this justifiable? they are taking the freedom from the people, the freedom they once fought for has now become an obssessive rage for control, I don't see FARC as leftists, they don't know what the word left means, they have to go and read over their first manifesto for they have forgotten what it contains. The Colombian people aren't pro-fascist, their governments have simply never allowed the left to stand in elections for the presidency, but times are changing now, expect the upcoming congress elections to have a leftist outcome, there are two very popular left wing parties contesting many sentate and representatives seats, they're called Cambio Radical (Radical Change) and Polo Democratico Independiente PDI (Independent Democratice Pole), however, the current dictatorship of Alvaro Uribe is certainly pro-fascist


Who are the people who massacre men women and children- sometimes with chainsaws? Certainly not the FARC. The rightwing AUC paramilitaries are. They're also tight with the government and the army. Many AUC commanders are former army officers, there are accusations that some members are still in the army, they have often worked in tandem with the army, and they, with the army and government, are responsible for the VAST majority of cocaine production in the country, as well as heroin.

I'm not defending the AUC and nor I am defending FARC, in fact i attack both because they carry out these attrocities in equal meassure, one thing though, the FARC always leave their mark whenever they carry out an attack of these sort (chainsaw) and most drug laboratories have been known to belong to FARC, ELN and AUC alike.


The FARC want peace. But they don't trust the government to allow it- especially not the government of Alvaro Uribe, whose father was a drug-lord killed by the FARC. Uribe also has long-term connections with the paramilitaries, and was a close friend of notorious narco Pablo Escobar, who funded many of the 'projects' Uribe started in Antioquia state, particularly Medellin.

I agree with you on this, but if FARC want peace, then why the heck didn't they negotiate with the moderate government of Ernesto Samper in the early 90s, Samper was never known to be a verbal attacker of FARC, in fact it can be said that FARC became stronger and more powerful than ever during the Samper presidency, this could be said to be their 'climax' era.


The AUC who are "giving themselves up" are simply handing in arms, getting new arms and being set up as a new "civil militia"- essentially the same thing. And the same thing happened before with the previous paramilitary organisation, the Convivirs.

You are quite right, now their next step is to be elected to congress, a real concern and something must be done, my real hope lies on the two leftist parties named above.


So do the FARC-EP, comrade. But they know that the government, paras and army won't allow that to happen.

Down with the FARC??? I think not comrade, I think not. Go do some serious study of the situation before you go making these kind of statements and assertions.

I am half Colombian, my father was a trade unionist and an activist for the UP so I know a lot of what goes on, i have witnessed this myself, in fact one of the reasons I live in London is because my dad was threatened by FARC for working with the PDI and decided to flee Colombia before anything happened. The PDI is a leftist party and I believe they are the future for Colombia. Why are FARC fighting against other Socialist parties, they are contradicting their own ideology.

I'm sorry my comrade but you seem to be justifying their every move, if FARC seeked peace under the next leftist government maybe there would be hope to end the never ending period of violence, as I said before, FARC have forgotten what their own ideology means, they contradict themselves.

And thanks for the link but I have already read most of what says in there, I know it all sounds very convincing but do they mention the other half of their tactics?

[Karl Marx's Camel]

I don't think so, I lived in Colombia a few years ago and i myself have witnessed these similar extortionate acts

What did you see?

I ask you, because I would rather trust you, than any media.

[McLeft]

I don't want to go into detail about my own personal incident but I could tell you what once happened while travelling from Armenia to Cali.

Basically, there is a highway which connects both cities, my dad was driving us there, I was very young and I might have not understood what was going but I certainly understood what I saw.

After 3 hours or so of driving, our journey came to a halt, we joined a very long queue of cars, there was all sorts of motorists, but the majority were lorry drivers who make a living by transporting agricultural produce from farms to the cities. My dad stopped the car and got off thinking that what was going on was a normal police check on all vehicles but as he was getting out of the car, a man dressed in military uniform claiming to be FARC told us to stay calm and to get off the car and go with him. So we did, my dad looked worried and i innocently thought we were being arrested by the police, you know, what a 6 year old would think. The man guided us up the highway, it was a ten minute walk and on the way he kept telling people to get off their vehicles and people did so unhesitantly but i did hear a woman cry, she took her purse and gave it to the man, now i understand that she was trying to bribe him, the man rejected it and grabbed her by the arm and pushed her violently and called her a 'puta', anyway she joined us and we continued up the highway, I started crying when I saw a group of what appeared to be soldiers carrying big guns, they then ordered all the men to line up i was separated from my dad and an old lady took me and hugged me and that sort of made me come down a bit) Anyway, a middle aged man in uniform asked all the lorry drivers to step forward and around 10 of them did, these men were made to walk up to their lorries. All I heard after were shots, for a good 10 minutes, it was terrible, i wanted to go to my dad but he was being held nearly at gunpoint and i started having a sort of nervous break down, i had never felt so scared in my life and i think i never will do again.

After a good 1/2 hour, the same man that guided us up the highway told us that we could go back to our vehicles and continue on with our jurney, on the way back to our car my dad told me that they burned one of the lorries and kidnapped the owner, the other 9 lorries were sprayed on with their usual 'FARC-EP' logo and later my dad told me that if the lorry owners took it off they would get killed, that's one more of their extortionate tactics. I myself saw the truck, it was in flames and all the tyres were shot at.

Now you may or may not believe what happened, that day was our lucky day, my dad and I simply happened to be two more people out of the dozens that were standing in the middle of the highway, my dad also had to give them all of his money including the tools that he used to carry in the carboot.

That event is one I will never forget and I feel sincerely sorry for the people of Colombia who see worse things than what I saw, thankfully i didn't witness any murders at that age, if i had i think i would've been traumatised. In that same year my dad sent me back to live with my mum here in the UK, she then took me with her to her native Ireland where we spent a few months trying to find a way of going back to Colombia but she came to the conclusion that it was too dangerous, my dad however, continued to live in Colombia until 2002 when he was targetted along with many of his colleagues of a Trade Union called Sinaltrabavaria (the largest in the country) It just became too dangerous, he had to leave his job and came to live with us. The last time we went to Colombia together as a family was last year, i'm hoping to go again next Christmas.

[chebol]

McLeft, I'll respond to your account later (bit busy atm).
Meanwhile, here's the FARC-EP's response:

Colombian Guerrillas Deny Demobilization

Bogota, Mar 13 (Prensa Latina) Colombia´s Revolutionary Armed Forces (FARC)
denied on Monday existence among its ranks of the so called Cacica La
Gaitana Company, which was supposedly demobilized on March 7.

Jeronimo Galeano, insurgent Adan Izquierdo Joint Command coordinator, sent a
communique to the FARC Central General Staff Secretary´s Office, asserting
that there has never been a company called Gaitania or Gaitana among his
troops.

There has never been either a Commander Biofilo, and none of our aircrafts
has been ever seized, as it was reported during the supposed demobilization
of the so called Cacica La Gaitana Company, Alvarado town, in the central
Tolima department.

For the insurgent group, with the show in Alvarado, Alvaro Uribe and his
High Commissioner for Peace Luis Carlos Restrepo´s reelection campaign is
intending to draw attention from the "absolute failure of his Democratic
Security policy."

mh/iom/ale

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

And that ladies and gents is why you can't trust the bourgeois press.

[Rosario Central]

The Farc-ep is not over, theyve been fighting for 40 years. Traitors wil always come and go, its just a set back, my fear is the growing american presence in Colombia.

[McLeft]

@Rosario Central: you're right, there now over 70,000 Americans living in Colombia, and the worst thing is that they are permanent residents. Colombia is a vital link for the US to establish its presence on the continent because it is the country that unites central and south america and it is also the throughfare to Caracas, it is indeed worrying, my greatest hope now is that Ollanta Humala gets elected president in Peru, that way Americans will have reduced chances of getting into Peru, South America needs to continue its leftists tredn, it has already kick-started the process of placing the continent on the world's political stage but if Americans keep moving into those countries, i'm not sure that trend can continue, why? because i fear these people are coup-de-etat strategists. :(

[Guerrilla22]

This is about the thousandth time I've said this on here, bit if the US would stop pouring millions into the Colombian defense budget and providing the Colombian military and national police with weapons, they wouldn't be out kidnapping people.

[Andy Bowden]

kidnapping a woman and wrapping explosives around her neck so that when the clock reaches 0 her head blows off

I don't know about the other claims you have made, but the Colombian military later admitted that it was not the FARC who carried out this attack - but common criminals trying to extort money.

[FULL METAL JACKET]

Originally posted by Andy [email protected] 17 2006, 07:11 AM

kidnapping a woman and wrapping explosives around her neck so that when the clock reaches 0 her head blows off

I don't know about the other claims you have made, but the Colombian military later admitted that it was not the FARC who carried out this attack - but common criminals trying to extort money.
The rightwing groups use those kind of extortion tactics.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f192/clockworkorange192/collar-bomba2.jpg

That was done by a right wing group. R.I.P

[metalero]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 02:35 PM
So you're saying that they are fighting a struggle right? Their initial cause was good, people supported them during "La Violencia" but now they have gone too far, filling up bikes with explosives so that when a child rides it he explodes, kidnapping a woman and wrapping explosives around her neck so that when the clock reaches 0 her head blows off, raiding farms and threatening to kill a baby in front of a poor family, then severing the child's genitals in front of his mother and then killing him in front of his mother, then grabbing his older sister and killing her in front of her mother and then killing the mother in front of her husband and then killing the husband! and yet you are saying that they are not just some kind of military outfit. then what are they? a peaceful guerrilla? I don't think so, I lived in Colombia a few years ago and i myself have witnessed these similar extortionate acts, the news show attrocities like these daily, the FARC are ruthless, my friend you seem to be very well misinformed.



Mcleft, I don't know if you bring these on purpose or out of leftist innocence. Considering the way you recreate the events (a hoollywood movie about Colombia) and how you brought the example of the neckless bomb (something that even the Army had to recognized was done by common criminals) I strongly recommed you to at least do some research appart from watching RCN, and CARACOL, in order to have an historical sense of the colombian armed conflict. I've lived in colombia for more than 20 years, I've travelled all around by Bus (Cartagena, Medellin, Bogota and Barranquilla), and I've never come across any sort of problem; there are high risk zones, but you obviously take the necessary steps not to have any problem (bring your ID and avoid any kind of political propaganda). Unless you are big landowner, who support paramilitarism, or your capital is more than 1 million dolar (in colombia!) and haven't paid the "war taxes" to the guerrilla, you shouldn't have any problem in Guerrilla territories. On the other side, if you want to make something as simple as to organize a labor union, demand your constitutional right to education and health care, you might be harassed, arrested by the security forces(even executed, the number of union leaders executed in Colombia in one year, is greater than the world's combined), and tortured or dissapeared by Paracos in northern rural colombia.

[McLeft]

Fine then, you all win! FARC are angels and they're all going to heaven for wanting to liberate the Colombian people, i'm sorry if i angered anyone.

[A Man of no Nation]

Another thing, Las FARC is not as involved with the drug trade as everyone thinks. Yes, they do demand a "war tax" on cocaine factories and some guerrillas are known to own some of their own. However, Las FARC is not involved with smuggling or transport in anyway ("History of THE Cocaine industry")

The Colombian military is using this as an excuse to stop support for Las FARC-EP saying they are "just thugs who only care about drug money". But how do you think Los Paramilitares are making their cash? Yes from military support, but also drug money.

If the Colombian government does not do anything to provide economic aid or work to those in the oriente, what do you expect them to do? They have no choice but grow coca leaves.

[A Man of no Nation]

Have you ever looked at the Human Rights Violations of the Colombian military and the AUC? It is fucking incredible. More than 70% of all human rights violations are commited by the AUC combined with the military. Sure Las FARC has commited some horrific crimes as well. But at least Las FARC is providing work, education, healthcare (though pathetic) water irrigation and hopoe for a better future for the people the Colombian government could give a shit about (especially in arauca, casanare, vichada, guainia, vaupes, amazonas, caqueta, putumato, and meta).

I hate every side of the Colombian war. You know why? There is no such fucking thing as freedom of speech. I spent two months in Colombia and I could not voice shit.

If I talk bad about the military, they throw me in prison and beat the shit out of me. I talk bad about the AUC, The torture me by cutting off my tongue, ripout my finger nails, and cut off my penis...and then chop of my head. I speak out against Las FARC-EP, they kill me. ELN, yes, they kill me.

What is freedom without freedom to say or write whatever the fuck I want to?



Here is a typical story you will hear over and over again when you visit Colombia:


You are a farmer of yucca in guainia; you live with no electricity, running water, no education, no health, no future, and no plata. You are making just enough food to provide for your family to eat. Then, one scarry night 20 men with guns come to your village demanding food. It´s Las FARC. Of course, you give them all the food they want so that they do not take you away; most likely with an execution. That night, your family goes hungry because the "guerrillas" stole your cattle. The next day is worse. The AUC comes into your village with even bigger guns and knives (provided by the US military). They round up everyone in the village with a list of names in their hand. They take men, women, children, elderly and even babies in the middle of the town. Then they masacre them with unspeakable tortures because they are "FARC supporters" or "They provided help for the guerrillas". When all they did was provide food to the men with guns because they feared for their lives. Then, the survivors are forced to leave their homes when all they did was give food to the men with guns. Worst of all, the Colombian military allows this kind of behavior to thrive because it is "cleansing Colombia of guerrillas". All they are cleansing is innocent people´s lives who are caught up in this conflict (of course not by choice). The remaining people in the village have no where to go and usually go to the cities for help...but most of them die along the way.

Is this a revolution for the people? This is not a fight for freedom, it is a fight for death. Colombia is "ONE NATION UNDER THE GUN"


I ask that the paramilitares be destoryed at any cost. I ask that the revolutionary forces try not to involve civilians in this bloody war, and try to abide by human rights laws. I ask for freedom to oppose one side or the other.

I am not saying I am a supporter of Las FARC-EP. I am saying that at least they are not as bad as the rightwing scum.


xViva Colombiax

-a man of no nation


I recommend everyone read

"War Without Quarter: Colombia and International Humanitarian Law"
by Human Rights Watch

This book is an indepth look at the war in Colombia. I doubt you will support the military after reading this book.

[Kaboly]

i don't know much about FARC, i have just learned about this group in the past week or so, but from what i understand they are a terrorist organization who pray on the lives of the people they claim to want to save. Now i don't care how you justify war, no cause is worth the lives of innocent people.......one innocent life is too much. I think that the leftist ideals of FARC probably attract alot of people who want to fight for change, but the terrorism that takes place is doing nothing for there cause, infact it's probably strengthening the peoples suport of the columbian government. They need to fight the real enemy, terrorism is a cowardly form of warfare and should not be tolerated, this includes any legal war where innocent civilians were killed (eg. Iraq). As for this being the end of FARC, I certainly hope it is the end of a terrorist group, but it doesn't really sound like it.

[violencia.Proletariat]

A helpfull hint. If you are getting information on the FARC from a major media source, it's probably a lie 99% of the time :) FARC is not a communist wet dream kind of organization, but it's anti-imperialist and will advance Colombia on Colombia's terms, not America's.

[A Man of no Nation]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 08:48 AM
no cause is worth the lives of innocent people.
Thank you! someone here understands the importance of life! All of these so-called "revolutionaries" put human life aside as if it is not important for "the cause". Mierda is all I have to say.

I am so damn tired of all these militant leftists supporting every side that claims to be left. But have they ever thought, "Maybe this particular leftist group is not good for this particular society"?

Sometimes these militants are so brainwashed by their own propaganda that they forget that everyone does not think exactly like they do. They do not believe in freedom of speech or freedom of the press because it is not what they believe. People who think like this should be kept away from society.

Why the hell would I want to support a revolution with violence as the first resort? Killing any living person for "your dream" is not liberation.

This war in Colombia has been going on for more than 50 years, and as of now it looks like it will be another 60 years before it is over.

Niether side of this war has a clear post-revolution plan. Just ammo and masacres.

[A Man of no Nation]

A helpfull hint. If you are getting information on the FARC from a major media source, it's probably a lie 99% of the time

Just because it is a major media source or a conservative media source does not necesarily mean it is a lie. However, information on las FARC-EP from a major media source is over exaggerated the majority of the time. So try your best to obtain your information from both sides to get a clear understanding of this bloody war.

[chebol]

The point is, violence has NOT been the "first resort" of revolutoinaries in Colombia. If you knew anything about the history of Colombia over the past 100 years (not just 50) you'd realise that the guerrilla were formed as a defensive action, against violent state repression. The FARC have tried to take a peaceful road several times, and, for the perfect example I point to the UP project of the 80's, have been met with the murderers and machine-guns of the fascist paramilitaries and their benefactors in Bogota and Washington. So don't preach to the FARC about "first resorts". Time to do some research.

[A Man of no Nation]

If you knew anything about the history of Colombia over the past 100 years (not just 50) you'd realise that the guerrilla were formed as a defensive action, against violent state repression.

I admit, I do not know enough of Colombian history before La violencia. However, I do know that origionally the guerrilla used violence as the last resort. But now, it seems that this war will never end while the escalation of violence and loss of innocent lives (whom do not want to take part in any side of the war) becomes greater and greater. At least the ELN is taking steps to participate in humanitarian laws and peace talks to end this comflict.


The FARC have tried to take a peaceful road several times, and, for the perfect example I point to the UP project of the 80's, have been met with the murderers and machine-guns of the fascist paramilitaries and their benefactors in Bogota and Washington.

This is true and I have done a lot of research on this. Same thing happened with the m19s who had put down their arms and began a political party. By being peaceful, they were masacred. So it is easily understood why Las FARC does not want to take part in the peace process. But why be like the rightwing paramilitares by using revenge? Why not start being the example to follow? This "civil" war has been basically retaliation for who killed who for decades.

Also, it is very difficult to start a political party (such as the UP) when the party has troops planting land mines in towns all across nueva colombia as well as parts of antioquia and chocó.

The worst thing about doing research on the Colombian Conflict is that the majority of everything writen or read about the conflict is bias. I am so tired of bias literature (from both sides). Fuck it.

By the way, has anyone read "Killing Peace: Colombia's Conflict and the Failure of U.S. Intervention" by Garry M. Leech? I am looking forward to reading if I return to the states.

thanks, it has been cool learning something from everyone

[A Man of no Nation]

...

[SilentRevolution]

Ok, here it is. Listen and listen good.

I am Colombian 100% born and bred living in the U.S. (My parents are part of the bourgeois society).In Colombia I had a good life. Peaceful and protected.

Yet Everyday I was witness to the atrocities of the so called "People's Army" THEY ARE MURDERING COWARDS ALL OF THEM!!!! Maybe at one point in the early years of the "revolution" they stood for something, just like the ELN. Unlike M-19 movement they were not revolutionaries.

They Are NARCO-TERRORISTS!!! They strap bombs to the necks of innocent civilians and ask for ransoms, that family members can't pay.

How dare any of you support this group, created on the blood of a nation that has had a "revolution" for the last 40!!! YEARS!!!

How dare you praise them as if they were gods?! Like they actually cared about the people they say they represent.

Marxist? Maoist? Guevarists?

CHE NEVER WOULD HAVE ALLOWED THE KILLING OF INNOCENT CIVILIANS IN A WAR WHICH DID NOT INVOLVE THEM! WTF DO A BUNCH OF FARMERS GAIN BUY SUPPORTING A MOVEMENT THAT FORCES THEM TO CREATE AN ILLICIT DRUG OR IT'S OFF THE PEOPLES COURT OR JURY OR WHATEVER MOCK TRIAL SYSTEM IT IS THEY USE!

I am disgusted to be associated with some of you. A true revolutionary knows that the War is not against the people but against the OPPRESOR of the people. And in this situation it is FARC that has become the Oppresor.


I Hope They Die And Rot In Hell, ALL Of Them.


Signed,
SilentRevolution


"Hasta La Victoria Siempre"

[A Man of no Nation]

It is difficult because I agree with SilentRevolution. The Colombian struggle has been one of the most complicated of struggles in recent history. You know why? Because every side is fucked up (Las FARC, AUC, and the Colombian military). Too be honest, I do not support any side in colombia. And while I was in Colombia, I could not voice my opinion because freedom of speech does not exist. Where there is no freedom of expresion, there is no freedom at all.

I am so tired of people on this leftist form who supports anyone who claims to be "de izquierda".

Leftism is about peace and about helping humanity. This "civil" war in Colombia has been far from peace and helping humanity. Leftism is not about picking up a gun and killing people who disagree with you.

[chebol]

Once again, in the late 90's, the FARC were again negotiating withe the Colombian government, right up until the moment when that same government withdrew from talks unilaterally and implemented Plan Colombia, which they had been secretly preparing anyway, with no intention of honouring any negotiations.

Now, neither, you, nor I, nor the Colombian people, nor the FARC-EP, want the continuation of violence. The question is, what is the next step?

Can you imagine a constructive step forward towards immediate 'peace' in Colombia that doesn't involve the surrender of the FARC, or the betrayal of those millions of people they are protecting from Narco-terrorist, paramilitary and army violence, or that doesn't leave all these ex-guerrilla leftists totally exposed to being massacred in their beds with chainsaws (as is a fave method of the paras)? Can you? Or do you just want to pontificate about how you think violence is bad, and people should stop being violent?

The FARC make mistakes. Some of them maybe can be excused. Perhaps to many people other mistakes cannot. Tell me, however, what Colombia would look like tomorrow if the FARC unilaterally laid down their arms....

The issue of FARC involvement with drugs has been covered enough on this board already- I don't need to repeat the figures AGAIN to say it's bullshit.


I am Colombian 100% born and bred living in the U.S. (My parents are part of the bourgeois society).In Colombia I had a good life. Peaceful and protected.

That much is clear. Whenever Colombia comes up, some people inevitably start attcking the FARC-EP, almost to the exclusion of anyone else. Well, let me put it simply comrade. Just because you are colombian, doesn't make you an expert, and your political analysis of 'your' country's problems doesn't provide anything in the way of a solution, except to excuse you from having to be part of it.
Well done!

The rest of us realise that, yes, it's horrible, but there has to be a practical, realistic solution- not just moralistic posturing.

[chebol]

World War 4 Report - May 2006
http://www.ww4report.com/node/1901

COLOMBIA QUAGMIRE

FARC Indictments Spell Escalation in Andean Oil War

by Peter Gorman

During the past several years, five apparently separate events have
taken place involving Colombia that are actually quite interrelated.
The first was that during the late 1990s, massive oil resources were
discovered in the southern areas of Colombia predominantly controlled
by the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC), the leftist
rebels who've been waging a civil war for 40 years. The second is that
Colombia and the US have been working on a Free Trade Agreement which
just signed this past February 27. Third, last year Colombian
President Alvaro Uribe successfully pressured the country's Congress
into writing an amendment to the constitution that will allow him to
run for a second consecutive term. The fourth occurred in early March
2006, when General Mario Montoya Uribe (no relation to the president)
was put in charge of the Colombian military. The fifth and last domino
fell later that month, when 50-members of the FARC were indicted (with
huge rewards placed on their heads) by the US government for alleged
massive cocaine trafficking. While many will see these as distinct
events, they're probably better seen as separate pieces of a complex
puzzle.

[McLeft]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 03:37 AM
Once again, in the late 90's, the FARC were again negotiating withe the Colombian government, right up until the moment when that same government withdrew from talks unilaterally and implemented Plan Colombia, which they had been secretly preparing anyway, with no intention of honouring any negotiations.

Now, neither, you, nor I, nor the Colombian people, nor the FARC-EP, want the continuation of violence. The question is, what is the next step?

I would be quite happy if they just disappeared!! I wouldn't care if they weren't to be held accountable for all the evil and terror they have caused, all I want for Colombia is peace and peace alone my desire for peace is so great that I would forgive them their crimes so long as they just leave the people alone.

That my friend is the next step, to tell them to go and to tell them not to worry about what they did.

THEY'RE EVIL OPPRESORS!! :angry:

[Commie Rat]

born and bred living in the U.S. (My parents are part of the bourgeois society).

Im sure you have complete acess to all the facts. <_<



They strap bombs to the necks of innocent civilians and ask for ransoms, that family members can&#39;t pay.

Debunked further up this thread


They Are NARCO-TERRORISTS&#33;&#33;&#33;

Basically if the ecinomic system in Columbia was in better shape, then farmers could grow crops to feed their families. For now they have to rely on cash crops, mainly coca, instead of abusing FARC for the help is recives from farmers, abuse the FTA and the poverty causing system of capitalism in Columbia.


"revolution" for the last 40&#33;&#33;&#33; YEARS&#33;&#33;&#33;


What? Its going to happen overnight? <_<


CHE NEVER WOULD HAVE ALLOWED THE KILLING OF INNOCENT CIVILIANS IN A WAR WHICH DID NOT INVOLVE THEM

There is no person who is not involed in class war. from the poorest farmer to the richest farmer, we all belong to a class in this system, and thus we are involed and responsible for this conflict.


FARMERS GAIN BUY SUPPORTING A MOVEMENT THAT FORCES THEM TO CREATE AN ILLICIT DRUG

FARC doesn&#39;t force them to make coca as i explained before.




Leftism is about peace and about helping humanity

What are we? a bunch of beatnick and hippies? To make an omlette you have to break some eggs.



would forgive them their crimes so long as they just leave the people alone.


What leave the people to raped and pilaged by american intersts in the area (espacially for oil) Think the Niger Basin abuses all over again.


Tell me, however, what Colombia would look like tomorrow if the FARC unilaterally laid down their arms....


An American supported "democracy". <_<

[chebol]

I would be quite happy if they just disappeared&#33;&#33; I wouldn&#39;t care if they weren&#39;t to be held accountable for all the evil and terror they have caused, all I want for Colombia is peace and peace alone my desire for peace is so great that I would forgive them their crimes so long as they just leave the people alone.

That my friend is the next step, to tell them to go and to tell them not to worry about what they did.

THEY&#39;RE EVIL OPPRESORS&#33;&#33; mad.gif

Are you that fucking insane that you think that 1. The FARC cause the violence, and 2. It would magically disappear if they disarmed&#33;?&#33;?&#33;?

You are either an idiot or a counter-revolutionary. Full stop. You a big fan of the AUC, then???? Perhaps you would like to put a picture of a chainsaw in your avatar.

And I make no apologies for being rude this time. Your "desire for peace" is so great that you would consign Colombia to fascism, arbitrary mass-murder, torture, narco-governments and the chainsaw murder of infants. Well-fucking-done, comrade.

[McLeft]

My desire for peace is perhaps unrealistic but one can only hope. Colombia is a fucked up country and FARC aren&#39;t doing anything to help. I simply want them gone, I want the AUC to disappear too. I&#39;ve simply had enough of them. And not i&#39;m not counter-revolutionary, the thing is that FARC are not in pursuit of a revolution, they&#39;re in pursuit of filling up their Swiss bank accounts with drugs money, this is what the disguise of the Revolution is used for. They insult Communism and I want them gone :angry:

[chebol]

McLeft, I understand what you are saying. I don&#39;t believe that you&#39;re a counter-revolutionary. I think you genuinely want peace, and I respect that. But you are right- you are being unrealistic.
My comments above were meant to provoke, however, and I don&#39;t back away from them. As much as we&#39;d all like violence to all "disappear", it just won&#39;t, so we have to work out a practical way of removing it from the planet forever. And spending time in discussions on Colombia targeting the FARC with criticism that echoes the bourgeois press, instead of isolating the cause of the problem, only reinforces people&#39;s misunderstanding of the situation- and that will only prolong the pain.

Of course, a key part of any solution is a rebuilding of the urban and union movements in Colombia. A strong alternative with mass support could go a long way to ending la violencia and towards building Nueva Colombia.

My main point is, sure, disagree with the FARC. But let&#39;s concentrate on the main problems Colombia faces, and view the FARC as part (a flawed part, yes, but a part) of the solution, which is the organised working class taking power and ending the rule of the paras and narcos. You are quite wrong- the FARC are playing a role, for without them, the entire population would be at the mercy of the worst of the worst of the paras, US companies, etc. The environment would be destroyed even further, the oil would be pumping out at rates high enough to endermine the Venezuelan revolution and OPEC, the rural population of Colombia would have even worse living conditions and less food, nutrition, health and education, paras and the US would have even more opportunity to destabilise Venezuela and possibly Ecuador- the list goes on.

[The Beat]

FARC isn&#39;t the answer.

They have shown that they are influenced by the CIA.

We need a grass roots movement in Columbia.

[chebol]

And how exactly do you figure that....???
:lol:

Bullshit&#33;&#33;&#33; Utterly ludicrous insane bullshit&#33;

[Colombia]

McLeft, I feel sorry for you for having to see what you saw, however, at your age you probably did not know the reasoning behind it. The FARC may have had a logical reason for killing those people. We just don&#39;t know.

What is sad though is that FARC-EP are always attacked, but when one looks at the history of Colombia, they see it was just a bunch of wars between the liberals and conservatives. As Chebol mentioned before, they were a self defense group that simply grew stronger. If FARC were such tryants, then I seriously doubt they could have lasted over 40 years with such a record. The truth is that the FARC do relatively well in relations to the people. You all should really read anything Gary Leech has ever written because it gets so much more indepth than I can do.

It is also unrealistic to have peace. THe FARC tried and the government just screwed them over.