iraqi's rejoice [Archive]

Zombie

23rd March 2003, 00:29

Quote: from hawarameen on 6:38 pm on Mar. 22, 2003
pictures from liberated towns in southern iraq show a great deal of rejoicing and high spirits now that they are free from saddams reign.

the citizens are out on the streets, dancing and chanting "saddam your days are numbered"

these are the very people that the stop the war coalition (half of which i believe consist of either arabs or children who are up for a ruk) would want to deny any freedom.

this time the people are not forced out on the streets to chant "with our blood and soul we give our lives to saddam", this is real emotion, a new chapter, the begining of a free iraq

this is just another chapter in american propaganda. oh sure they only show u the footage of people rejoicing, that's cause Bush desperately needs to show the world that he's somewhat of a liberator! i mean this is low even for that fucker.don't believe everything u see hawa.

canikickit

23rd March 2003, 01:01

Hawar is using intelligence. He's also using emotion, and who can blame him?

Hawar, I'm fucking delighted that Saddam's regime is going to be smashed. I'm fucking delighted that Iraqis, and Kurds will have more civil liberties than before.

I am filled with trepidation about the Turks at the moment, though. Those guys are starting to piss me off.

The reason I went to the anti-war protest, and the reason I am against the war, is because Bush and Blair (and associates) do not give a fuck about the fact that Saddam is repressing people. They only care because it gives them an excuse - if Ireland was in the Middle East, and they had the excuses and motivation - they'd do the same thing. I'd also have a tan, but that's beside the point.

We have to let the powers that be know that we do not support imperialism.

I'm glad a new chapter is beginning, I just wish it was coming about in another way.

(Edited by canikickit at 1:03 am on Mar. 23, 2003)

hawarameen

23rd March 2003, 01:11

we shall see what happens.

one thing i will say is that this whole anti war movement is based on "we dont want innocent lives lost" "we this and that" has anyone asked the iraqi people what they want? the first signs show that they welcome the troops.

does the propaganda also consist of US admiting that they have met more resistance than they expected? that most of the allied deaths have come about due to accidents?

arabic tv shows the same pictures!

of course i could be wrong, the iraqi people could really love saddam even though he has killed many of their friends and family. they could really love him for totally fucking up a country that should be one of the wealthiest in the world, i could be wrong.

thursday night, please try to use a little more intelligence than me

thursday night

23rd March 2003, 01:14

What you do not seem to understand is that democracy will not come to Iraq. The USA hardly has a good track record when it comes to installing new governments, and I don't see why Iraq will be any different than any other American installed dictator.

Zombie

23rd March 2003, 01:21

they could really love him for totally fucking up a country that should be one of the wealthiest in the world, i could be wrong.
those 12 years of hard sanctions, embargos and bombing from the US didn't help the situation either, hawa.
See this is how good the US hypocrisy actually is. Saddam this, Saddam that, but they never blame anything for themselves, how they made a whole population starve, with the pretext that it was for their good....
Live and tell, as they say. It's not a few iraqis rejoicing at the allied troops' sight that's gonna predict the overall population's 'situation' (ill find a better word for that later) in the times ahead.
wait and see, yes. just don't rejoice too fast. u might get disappointed. im not saying this to piss u off, just being realistic here.

canikickit

23rd March 2003, 01:23

Hawar, I have seen/encountered/met as many anti-war Kurds or Iraqis as pro-war. Last night there were a large number of citizens of Iraq on Irish TV, on a chat show - their sentiments about the war were split quite evenly down the middle. That's outside Iraq.

In Iraq, on the news today, it was also reported that translators heard many feelings of resentment towards the troops, there were dissaproving looks and muttered grievences - I wonder if that was reported on CNN? Of course the majority welcomed them.

I don't know man, I'm sure you're sick of hearing the same crap. The whole planet is fundamentally wrong anyway.

hawarameen

23rd March 2003, 01:24

CIKI - turkey has been pissing me off for a long time but thankfully it looks like the world has wised up to its antics and warned it of doing something silly. germany says it will recall its weapons it has sent, and other countries (inc. US, AUS, SWEEDEN) have given turkey clear warnings.

i had an interview with a local TV channel and one of their questions was "do you think that US cares about people in iraq?"

A- "not for one moment, i believe that america and UK are driven by economic and imperialistic gains but if the freedom of the iraqi people comes about by such greed then not only i but all iraqi's i believe will be happy to pay such a price, the people freedom is priceless"

i also have been to anti war marches it may suprise people, i have protested against imperialism and i also wish that it could have been done another way.

canikickit

23rd March 2003, 01:35

i also have been to anti war marches it may suprise people, i have protested against imperialism and i also wish that it could have been done another way.

Glad to hear it. Good answer also, were you on the telly? :biggrin:

hawarameen

23rd March 2003, 01:38

i have also encountered iraqi's who are against the war, but the ones i have spoken to (not representative) are supporters of saddam. examples i can give are that when i informed one of them that iraq had launched missiles into kuwait their initial reaction was "good". another iraqi i have spoken to was a soldier in the iraqi army who had recieved medals from saddam.

dont get me wrong there ARE supporters of saddam but they care non for the ordinary people of iraq.
also there is the issue that ANY incoming force may be viewed as invaders nomatter the intentions of the soldiers, and this is understandable.

Nobody (not even thursday night with his superior intelligence) can tell what will happen once this war is over and the sooner it is over the better.

back to the turkish issue in an interview with a local radio station i said "i trust turkey as much as i trust saddam"
except that the rest of the world is far more willing to turn a blind eye to turkeys tyranny

hawarameen

23rd March 2003, 01:41

Yeah i was on the telly

however it was on S4C digitol with viewing figures of about 13 (5 of whom are my family) and it was dubbed over in welsh (they wont allow english on the chanell)

Zombie

23rd March 2003, 01:46

where ya from hawa?

hawarameen

23rd March 2003, 01:51

OK, originally i am from southern kurdistan (north iraq for those who deny it exists) from a city called sulaimani about 3 hours away from baghdad. i along with my parents and sisters had to flee and i have been living in UK (cardiff) for about 21 years on and off

Zombie

23rd March 2003, 01:57

thx mate :)
i have been in quite a similar situation myself.

(Edited by Zombie at 8:57 pm on Mar. 22, 2003)

hawarameen

23rd March 2003, 23:20

so where are you from?

Zombie

23rd March 2003, 23:30

Born in Lebanon (city called El Mina) in the middle of the war (1982).
Had to flee the country with my family when i was 6yo, to Canada (Quebec) where i stayed there for roughly 5-6 years.
Then went back to Lebanon, stayed there another 8 years, and now I'm back in Canada... been 9months and counting.

Angie

24th March 2003, 01:24

My experience with the protests leading up to, and within, this war is that people are quite happy for Saddam to be removed from power. What differs between their view and that of the pro-Bush crowd is the method in which Saddam is removed.

How fucking dare you presume that we're there because we support him, Hawarameen. How fucking DARE you assume that people like myself wish to deny the Iraqi people their freedom.

As each day passes, I have witnessed that you are acting more and more like the pro-Bush crowd, and that's nothing to be proud of. It's like watching Capitalist Imperial within the "Opposing Ideologues" forum - sometimes he sounds normal, other times he sounds like a fantatical, genocidal maniac who would be best served wrapped in a straight jacket and bouncing off cushioned walls.

I have met some amazing Kurds in my lifetime. People who rightly wish freedom upon their own people, and don't want war to be brought down upon their nations for such freedom to arrive. Those are the amazing people of this battle, Hawarameen.

IMO, you do not fill their ranks.

Hodgo

24th March 2003, 08:12

Quote: from Angie on 1:24 am on Mar. 24, 2003
My experience with the protests leading up to, and within, this war is that people are quite happy for Saddam to be removed from power. What differs between their view and that of the pro-Bush crowd is the method in which Saddam is removed.

How fucking dare you presume that we're there because we support him, Hawarameen. How fucking DARE you assume that people like myself wish to deny the Iraqi people their freedom.

As each day passes, I have witnessed that you are acting more and more like the pro-Bush crowd, and that's nothing to be proud of. It's like watching Capitalist Imperial within the "Opposing Ideologues" forum - sometimes he sounds normal, other times he sounds like a fantatical, genocidal maniac who would be best served wrapped in a straight jacket and bouncing off cushioned walls.

I have met some amazing Kurds in my lifetime. People who rightly wish freedom upon their own people, and don't want war to be brought down upon their nations for such freedom to arrive. Those are the amazing people of this battle, Hawarameen.

IMO, you do not fill their ranks.

I dont wanna get involved in a big slag-fest here because I havnt been with this forum for long, but Angie, maybe you should have listened to what he was REALLY saying.

He said he didnt want a war and was against imperialism, but that if imperaliasm in this case leads to the freedom of his people, so be it.

He said he protested against the war. You should maybe read his posts again, it sounds as though you werent paying attention or were reading selectively.

Angie

24th March 2003, 12:22

Quote: from Hodgo on 6:12 pm on Mar. 24, 2003

I dont wanna get involved in a big slag-fest here because I havnt been with this forum for long, but Angie, maybe you should have listened to what he was REALLY saying.

He said he didnt want a war and was against imperialism, but that if imperaliasm in this case leads to the freedom of his people, so be it.

He said he protested against the war. You should maybe read his posts again, it sounds as though you werent paying attention or were reading selectively.

No, I read it very carefully. And I stand my ground stronger than ever.

Did you not read the line: "these are the very people that the stop the war coalition (half of which i believe consist of either arabs or children who are up for a ruk) would want to deny any freedom." ? Did you not sign the Stop The War coalition's signatory? Apparently not. Well, m'dear, I did - very proudly. And I take great offence to such generalities being applied to "my type".

The issue that I picked up on and still uphold offence upon is that he made an absurd generality. I specifically didn't make a generality, in response - I pointed out where he didn't resemble all those Kurds who I have met. Perfectly decent human beings who know better than to let Imperialism "bring their freedom" - exactly what freedom do you honestly think it's going to bring? Like the "freedom" in Afghanistan? Yes, yes. Wonderful freedoms they have there.

I'll have to remember that. Any time I feel I'm struggling in my life, I'll just call on the U.S Military to bomb the fuck out of my enemies, place sanctions upon my entire country, cripple my way of life, sell my oil to overseas organisations on my behalf ensuring that none of the money paid for it actually gets back to me, and guarantees that my life is just going to be ever so lovely for the rest of my existence, and that of my unborn, no doubt fated to be disfigured and/or stillborn, children.

Only a truly fucked up person would wish that upon their people. But hey. Go right ahead and back up his right to claim it's acceptible if his people will be "free" at the end of it all.

I suppose it's acceptible for the conservative Florida Cubans-in-exile to request that their people be "liberated" from Socialist Cuba by having the U.S Military storm the beaches and drop bombs from 5,000 feet above Havana - all in the name of "humanity" and "freedom"? It's essentially the same thing, really - Hawarameen's presently not in Iraq, either.

Perhaps it is YOU who should read more carefully.

Reuben

24th March 2003, 13:16

Hawar, i understanfd where you are coming from, and iam sorry to hear about your experiences (both in iraq and having to grow up in wales;))

I do think that some times the left are a little to clear cut on these issues.

At the recent demonstration in london i did see Iraqis speak against the war who disliked saddam one of whom was a Kurd. Ths war, it must be understood, has consequences which go way beyond Iraq. If America is allowed to act unilaterally in going to war and toppling a regime, and this occurs with no public backlash, it will set an extremely dangerous precedednt, particularly given America's track record of supporting and installing anit-democratic regimes in countries such as Chile and guiatemala as well as supporting the house of saud and suharto.Of course you know all this, and i do feel some ambivelence. If 1939 came again I, like most on this board, would join up and fight, and i do understand the position you are in. I was arguing with my mum who wants this to turn into another vietnam so that America get a bloody nose. I told her that 3 million vietnamese were killed. So i am ambivelent - i want this war to be conducted with as few casualties as possiblesandp referably quickly yet i know the consequences for the rest of the world if america come through this unscathed.

hawarameen

24th March 2003, 13:23

LOL Funny,

i said in my opinion half of the anti war protestors are there not for the people of iraq but on ulterior motives. the amount of palestinian flags i have seen is incredible. on the stages where important people speak, they speak with a "free palestine" backdrop.

the antiwar marches are being used by MANY as a chance to protest against america. the people i have seen at marches consist mostly of arabs and other muslims who would protest against america nomatter what the issue. these people support saddam, one example i can actually provide you with is in this forum. there is a thread in Ernesto Che Guevara titled "what would che think of saddam", there is someone called "comrade"1917 who's only reason for protesting against the war is that saddam supports palestine against israel.
the now famous Al-Qudz reporter (i dont know his name but its something like Ahmed Al Shitforbrains) on arabic TV is a staunch anti american whatever the issue and he too is against the war because he supports saddam who helps palestinians.

In my experience most kids were out protesting simply because it meant they had a day off school.

i was not generalising i said MOST and i still say MOST!

Iraq and Afghanistan are two very different countries, in the north for example you can go into a city and you could as well be in any eas european city, there has been democracy in north iraq for the past 12 years, and it has been very successful.

but of course you should know this having kurdish friends.

saddam placed the sanctions on iraq, he is allowed to sell oil for food but you know what, non of it has got to the people. i have personally BOUGHT free UN flour for my relatives. deliveries of food and medical aid are collected at ports by Udais men (saddams son) and then sold.

and of course i hadnt realised that the iraqi people's lives have been SSOOO lovely for the last 30 years.

but of course you should know that having kurdish friends.

and the stillborn, disfigured cancerous babies that are born in Halabja as a result of chemicals dropped on the city 12 YEARS AGO is just a coincidence.

but of course you should know that having kurdish friends.

i went to the anti-war marches because i protest at the killing of innocent lives. My banner - "no war on the innocent"

i dont know how intelligent you are but unless you are a certified fortune teller please dont tell me what is and what is not going to happen, i do not know what will happen in the future but i do know that the future of iraq is fucked under saddam and his sons who are even worse than him once saddam dies.

i keep hearing that there has to ba another way and war is not the answer.

if you are such an authority on the subject TELL ME WHAT THE ANSWER IS.

TELL THE WHOLE WORLD HOW TO REMOVE SADDAM WITHOUT KILLING ANYBODY

you are nieve, your kurdish friends are nieve

I AM AS MUCH ANTI IMPERIALISM AS ANYONE

very sharp of you to pick up on the fact that i dont live in iraq, did you read why i left? i have friends and family in iraq, they all want saddam to be removed and you will NEVER know the position i am in.

(Edited by hawarameen at 1:29 pm on Mar. 24, 2003)

hawarameen

24th March 2003, 13:34

Quote: from Reuben on 1:16 pm on Mar. 24, 2003
Hawar, i understanfd where you are coming from, and iam sorry to hear about your experiences (both in iraq and having to grow up in wales;))

I do think that some times the left are a little to clear cut on these issues.

At the recent demonstration in london i did see Iraqis speak against the war who disliked saddam one of whom was a Kurd. Ths war, it must be understood, has consequences which go way beyond Iraq. If America is allowed to act unilaterally in going to war and toppling a regime, and this occurs with no public backlash, it will set an extremely dangerous precedednt, particularly given America's track record of supporting and installing anit-democratic regimes in countries such as Chile and guiatemala as well as supporting the house of saud and suharto.Of course you know all this, and i do feel some ambivelence. If 1939 came again I, like most on this board, would join up and fight, and i do understand the position you are in. I was arguing with my mum who wants this to turn into another vietnam so that America get a bloody nose. I told her that 3 million vietnamese were killed. So i am ambivelent - i want this war to be conducted with as few casualties as possiblesandp referably quickly yet i know the consequences for the rest of the world if america come through this unscathed.

i share your fears of america winning the war overwhelmingly and living in wales has not made me too mad, YET!

Beccie

25th March 2003, 06:09

Angie,

It is easy for a leftist, whom lives in a western country (you live in Australia?), to say something like:

Only a truly fucked up person would wish that upon their people

The problem with saying something like this is that you (and most other people on this board including myself) have not lived under a brutal dictatorship. It is hard for us to relate to somebody who has lived under Saddams regime. It is understandable that the oppression and lack of freedom that Iraqis and Kurds have experienced would evoke strong emotions and a desperate need for liberation. What if Hawar is clinging on to the only chance that he can see will bring about a change for his people rather then wishing America to come drop bombs on American civilians.

Does a wish for freedom make someone fucked up?

Angie

25th March 2003, 13:43

Ohhh... poor darling Hawarameen, it appears that I hit a raw nerve! I'm so sorry, precious! Let mummy kiss it better.

You've convinced me, oh Great and Righteous One. Congratulations! Let's bomb the shit out of Iraq. Let's make it's sand dunes glisten and shine with their new covering of dark green glass. Let's start with the Kurds, shall we? A few strategically positioned NUCLEAR BOMBS should do the trick! Oh, what's that? You weren't aware that the U.S weren't ruling out the use of nuclear weaponry? Hadn't ruled out the idea of repeating Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Or that nuclear weaponry tends not to differentiate between class, race, gender, ethics, religious belief, language, etc...? Ooops!

Apparently you aren't aware of the various alternatives (yes, there were a number of them, go look it up instead of being so fucking lazy and complaining, "Well, I never heard of them!" as if that mattered anything) to war that have been presented to the world, talking heavily about how to secure Iraq from violence - both it's own and from outside, while the inspectors continue searching for illegal weaponry - and then having been systematically ruled out by the United States, in favour for it's own overly-violent tactics? Pity for the Iraqis, huh. Oh well.

How about we make an official, "I hereby un-sign the Stop The War petition", statement and present it to the world! After all, we're only sitting on the edge of WWIII. Country after country are turning against each other, a large number of them previously calling themselves allies, and a number of them turning their weaponry towards each other at the same time. Let's allow the U.S to continue hitting Iraq because it'll save the Kurds - be damned with the fact that the rest of the world will suffer GREATLY from such a thing! Be damned, Planet Earth! Be damned! Let the rest of the world burn, because Kurdistan will finally be secured!

Reminds me of the little kid who sits in the back of the car screaming, "Stop the car, stop the car, I want an ice cream!" over and over again, depite the fact that the kid's brother needs to get to somewhere, the kid's mother needs to get to somewhere, the kid's father needs to get to somewhere, even the kid's DOG needs to get to somewhere! But no! "Stop the car, I want an IIIIIIIICE CREEEEEEAAAAMMMMM!!!! WAAAAAAA!!!!"

You're making me SICK. Some things are just bigger than you, you arrogant little shit. We're all for the Kurds having their freedom - but if this is the price the rest of the world has to pay for that to happen, then I'd rather not travel with you sitting in my car's back seat, thank you very much. You'll just be the brat that gets booted out of the car and told to walk home in the rain, hail or shine.

Don't ever DARE to speak to me again. I don't want to deal with you for another moment, lest my stomach bring up my last meal. The conversation is over.

Quote: from Commie01 on 4:09 pm on Mar. 25, 2003
The problem with saying something like this is that you (and most other people on this board including myself) have not lived under a brutal dictatorship.Oh, so you know my history, do you? You knew where I grew up? You knew about the civil war I was born into? Right. Thank you very much for sharing that precious insight into my life. I'll remember that for future conversations with you I might possibly wish to poison my mind with. Pathetic loser.

Zombie

25th March 2003, 13:56

where are you from Angie?
just asking:)

Angie

25th March 2003, 14:12

I was born in South Africa. No official dictator but a lovely truckload of violence I wouldn't wish upon my worst enemy.

Dhul Fiqar

25th March 2003, 14:17

First impressions notwithstanding, the Iraqi civilian population has now been confirmed to be heavily co-operating with the military. Recent reports on CNN and BBC talk of Civilians hindering coalition efforts with various degrees of violence and resistance...

In any case, I just hope as few innocent people as possible die in this fiasco :(

Beccie

26th March 2003, 08:49

No, I don't know anything about you. I do recall you saying though that you went to a protest in Melbourne so I assumed you were Australian. I apologise for making that assumption.

My post was not supposed to be a personal attack on you. I was trying to say that most people (including myself) would not be able to relate to hawarameens current situation, so instead of attacking him for it maybe we should try to understand.

Reuben

26th March 2003, 13:27

Angie, if you were truly confident in your arguments then you would be dealing with what Hawarameen actually said rather than distoritng and characterising his opinions to such a ridiclous extent

Angie

26th March 2003, 14:12

Quote from Reuben:
Angie, if you were truly confident in your arguments then you would be dealing with what Hawarameen actually said rather than distoritng and characterising his opinions to such a ridiclous extent.Is that so? My confidency in my arguments isn't that great because I found a MAJOR flaw in his argument and brought it to attention? Well, fuck you too, arsehole. Supporting the brainless losers of the world who claim to hate Imperialism, but find little problem in allowing it to wreak across the globe "liberating" people via the use of weapons of mass destruction and all-round carnage, tsk tsk tsk. Can you say HYPOCRISY?

You're no better than he is, as far as I'm concerned, so just fuck the hell off. The moment you supported him, you stopped being decent.

hawarameen

27th March 2003, 00:25

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST!
isnt anyone allowed to have an opinion?

actually angie i think about 3 people agree with me on this site and they are kurdish, suprising? commie01 and reuben dont agree with me.

S.A is very different from Iraq, you cant compare the two and as i have said (others have also asked you to read what i have written) "NO WAR ON THE INNOCENT"
it was in my opinion far easier for the people of south africa to revolt than it is for the iraqi people.

the whole world in its nievity has been at war with the iraqi people for 12 years in the form af sanctions.

since you are happier using childish analogies heres one for you. a child has a box of sweets in front of him and every time his mother isnt looking he steals a sweet, his mum finds out and says no stop it. the kid ignores his mum and keeps stealing, the mum says this is your last chance i really mean it. OK this goes on for another 18 times, the point? you can give someone as many chances as you like if they dont intend to behave then chances mean nothing.

and the various alternatives? please forward any credible ones to [email protected]

you idea of sweeping things under the carpet doesnt work, it doesnt work in the home and it doesnt work in real life. how can you care so little about the opression of 60 million people, are you of the opinion that as long as saddam isnt doing anything to you its ok? what about all the other dictators around the world you torment their people. Hey its ok to kill people as long as your killing your own people yes?

i really believe that the people of iraq will rejoice when saddam is gone, people are scared two men i saw being interviewed when asked what they thought of saddam replied "please dont ask me that"

on arabic TV it has been suggested that citizens are taking up arms.

i would say that it is common knowledge that the iraqi republican guard and al-fadayeen are dressing in civilian clothes and pretending to surrender then shooting etc..

Angie

27th March 2003, 13:07

*yawn* You really are full of shit. I had no idea just how much, though, until now. As if your lack of knowledge re the world or it's history weren't enough, you had to take it that one step further - no doubt to "stand your ground". You're just a big toughie, aren't you, love? You're going to take on all those meanies, I just know it! *claps hands* It really is pitiful. My heart just bleeds for you.

It must be SO incredibly difficult for someone who can't even see past their own patheticness. All along people are saying that yes, the 'Kurdish' situation should be dealt with, that yes, there are alternatives to war and that they're available if you'd just look for them (considering the fact that they came from "[email protected]", I think it pretty safe to say that a very large number of diverse people from right across the globe know about them, but no - YOU don't know about them, probably because it's not in the U.S nor it's Coalition's interest to make them available to mainstream media, so obviously no-one else does nor has the means of finding out by using their own brains! It would be too much to ask people to look beyond CNN, I suppose. Brilliant logic, bravo!), but no... that's not good enough for you, is it? Someone dares not to wish WWIII to start up over the economics-fuelled, false "liberation" of a people whom their so-called "liberators" don't give a flying fuck about and have a history of being quite happy to let Turkey bomb the crap out of them (incidentally, the Afghanis also thought they were being "liberated" into the better life, too, but - shock horror! - the Afghanis are nothing like the Iraqis are they? No! The Iraqis are all unique and no-one could ever, EVER, relate to them!) and suddenly they don't give a crap for 60 million people? After clearly showing that they would rather 6 BILLION people be safe? They also somehow showed that they thought Saddam was alright and indeed should just be left alone to wander on his merry way through the fields of daisies and blood-red poppies! Hip-hip-hooray! Now THAT'S some fantastic logic! Well done! *claps again*

Oh, and in case you need reminding, silly little boy - the 'decent' communication between you and I is long over, child. Or is it that you always make a habit of coming back for yet more trouble, in every situation you get involved in? Tsk tsk. That would explain quite a lot, really. It'll always be here just for you if you want it, so feel free to bring it on, you insufferable, ignorant, little crap-for-brains.

Use your brains. Take a hint.

hawarameen

28th March 2003, 00:22

on such a subject i feel guilty in saying that your posts make me laugh, genuinly and not in a bad way.

i can honestly say i find your rhetoric amusing

please could you educate me as to how in your opinion saddam can be removed without the use of force, and i will tell you with the best of my 'knowledge' on iraq if its credible.

there are very serious disagreements between countries at the moment but are you suggesting that there are countries out there who are willing to go to war in support of saddam? [i]tsk tsk[i] (i would be dissapointed in you if you did because you seam far more intelligent than that)

the last thing i want is for this conversation to end kido

Angie

28th March 2003, 04:57

See, that's your primary problem.

You've got that idiotic mindset of "Either you're with us, or you're against us" that Governor Bush shares. You don't seem to be able to see the layers in between. Naturally that leads you to believe that anyone who is not on Bush's side fighting against Saddam is automatically on Saddam's side fighting with him. If we're not in support of the U.S's "liberation" of the Kurds in such a violent manner, we must automatically be for their destruction.

Ask yourself: Did I sound like I was suggesting that other countries were openly supporting Saddam? Or did I sound like someone who was suggesting that other countries are against both sides and want this war ended and diplomacy to begin, come hell or high water? You simply cannot conceive that there is more to the story than what is presented in black and white. You simply cannot conceive that people are looking with the big picture in mind - 60 million people are important, absolutely, but 6 billion people? What sort of person are you who puts 60 million people before 6 billion? It's not about not caring for people - it's precisely about caring for them. If there's a risk of World War III occurring due to this conflict, isn't it better to avoid it at all costs? What part of that did you miss?

For that I pity you greatly. You are clearly closed minded enough that trying to explain anything goes nowhere. Indeed people have tried to explain and it falls on deaf ears. It's like talking to a Capitalist. Running around and around in circles. I suggest you visit the 'Opposing Ideologies' forum, for two reasons: The bulk of people in this forum will not back you, and all the Cappies in the other forum are happy to support you.

You're proving yourself to be quite the troll.
I'm sure you know what that means?

Educate yourself on this: We're not all here to 'educate' you on the world. Some of us are, some of us aren't. Most of us are here to give our opinions. A large number of us would be quite happy if you got off your arse and did some research for yourself. Whilst I'm sure there are plenty around, don't expect me to be your teacher, in everything I do here or bring here; I learnt the hard way and your laziness to research directly instead of spongeing of others is nothing short of irritating.

hawarameen

28th March 2003, 23:53

and your problem is that you dont read other people posts. where have i said i am with bush? its a problem noticed by others on this thread, you havnt read anything that you dont like, your arguments are completely selective.

i suggest that YOU are the one who cant see the layers. you havnt heard of people dieing in iraq, when thers talk of a war, you say ooo people may die bad bad, must stop.

you know you keep on about this WWIII thing but this really is a lame argument, is this all you have? name me ONE country that would be willing to support saddam in a war. using you OWN argument, you would have let a certain german/austrian carry on invading countries and killing hundreds of thousands of jews all in the name of peace!! do you realise how rediculous this argument sounds? i hope you do.
or actually are you reffering to WWIII or WArgumentI?

i know you were suggesting that countries are against both sides but i dont see how that would turn into WWIII, would they fight both sides?? (i read other people posts, try it, its great)

like i said i know most people on this site dont agree with me (yet another reference to the 'read my posts' plea), i respect them for that, i respect you for that but then again how many people have lived under a dictator who's hero is stalin?

a comparison between me and the cappies in OI is really quite bizzare, you hav'nt thought that one through i fear.

think about this - i, who am from kurdistan in iraq and suffered from saddam etc..... am witnessing a war on the person who has oppresed so many people in iraq and you dont think i have read every scrap of information i can get my hands on?? i DARE you to give me one decent way in which you in your infinate wisdom think that saddam can be removed peacfully. i have heard, read and seen countless claims that there has to be another way but no-one can give any.

Angie

29th March 2003, 02:25

*yawn* Troll.

hawarameen

29th March 2003, 22:47

What, no arguments??? c'mon angie dear you simply must be able to think of something. i was looking forward to this and now its proven to be a major dissapointment. [i]tsk tsk[i]

Reuben

30th March 2003, 01:34

Watch out Hawar, she might slap another label on, what will it be this time? Neo-liberal, imperialist (thats one of her favourites), fascist. Of course she wont answer any of your quesitons, no shes to good for that

Angie

30th March 2003, 09:32

Well, I must say this is quite refreshing.

The arrogant, pig-headed sub-human, 'Hawar', and his trusty sidekick, Reu-boy. The Kurds and the Jews lost out when you two came on the scene, that's certainly apparent.

Well, never mind. While the rest of the world deals with trying to stop a slaughter within, above and beyond Iraq, sub-human Hawar can sit back praying for more violence and slaughter in the name of "liberation".

Yes. Humanity has never been more intelligent.

You're an insult to humanity. No need to deal with you any more, then, there are much better people in existence. People who care about 6 billion people for instance, Kurds and all, and who don't support false pledges of "liberation" via the deliberate breaking of the Geneva Convention through an illegal war such as this.

I correct myself, sub-human Hawar. You're lower than sub-human. You're not human. Go shoot yourself, preferrably as soon as possible, you don't belong here. Reu-boy, feel free to follow him if you're so willing to support him. Lemmings do tend to work like that. The world will be a much better place.

(Edited by Angie at 9:06 pm on Mar. 30, 2003)

Beccie

30th March 2003, 11:54

I correct myself, sub-human Hawar. You're lower than sub-human. You're not human. Go shoot yourself, preferrably as soon as possible, you don't belong here. Reu-boy, feel free to follow him if you're so willing to support him. Lemmings do tend to work like that. The world will be a much better place.

I’m sure Hawar and Reuben will just laugh at you but this comment was completely uncalled for. If you [I]care[I] so much about people maybe you should stop the personal attacks and acknowledge other people’s opinions, even if you don’t agree with them.

Reuben

30th March 2003, 13:16

I like the name Reub-boy

redstar2000

30th March 2003, 14:49

It's like this in war, isn't it?

Hawarameen, who is a decent human being, finds himself linked with U.S. imperialism from a desire to see his people freed from Iraqi tyranny.

Angie, who is a decent human being, finds herself linked with a bloody tyrant from a desire to see U.S. imperialism defeated...not to mention staving off World War III.

It's happened before, of course, many times. Every imperial power has been hailed as "liberator" at one time or another, by one group or another. And every petty dictator has washed his bloody hands in the fountain of patriotism and resistance to empire.

As a resident of the United States and a communist, my duty is clear: to struggle against "my ruling class" above all else.

I consider the United States to be the "fortress of world reaction" and its absolute and unconditional defeat the necessary prelude to any real chance for world revolution. No country is safe while the United States is free to intervene in their affairs, economically or militarily.

What is needed, in my view, is a world-wide alliance against U.S. imperialism.

Nothing else will really do.

:cool:

hawarameen

31st March 2003, 00:03

Angie - very amusing indeed, and also very childish at the same time. do you regularly go around telling people to kill themselves? its a sorry state of affairs when you run out of arguments and resort to petty name calling, i pity you.

i give up asking you to read my posts, actually, can you read? Reuben and commie01 dissagree with me, how many more times would you like it said to you before it gets in?
your arguments are flawed, i have debated this very topic sensibly with most people here, each person has had educated and reasonable responses while you resort to encouraging me to kill myself? quite the humanitarian arnt you?
read commie01's post, actually, get somone else to read it for you, you dont seam capable. if english isnt your first language then please accept my appologies.

RS - i respect you greatly and i think you are very knowledgable. we have talked about this subject before at great length but there are a couple of points i would like to raise.

1. the iraqi people cannot overthrow saddam themselves and for me it doesnt matter who is helping them to do it. in a television interview i had with a local channel i was asked if i thought G. Bush cared for the iraqi people. i replied "not for one moment, i believe that Bush and Blair are driven by economic and imperialistic gain but if the freedom of the iraqi people is a by-product of that greed then so be it, a nations freedom is priceless" i am in NO way linked with the american government, indeed they are the cause of most of our troubles.

2. i dont agree that every imperial power has been labled liberators. i doubt native americans for e.g. had any notion of liberation and liberation was the last thing on any conquerors mind.

3. iraqis have been trying to struggle against their rulling class for 30 years, i believe they need some help.

in my view an economic tyrant is far better than a blood hungry one.

in my view, what is needed above all else is the liberation of the proletariat.

iraq has been colonised before and they rejected it, if the US has a similar plan it will be very much mistaken, the people of iraq wont accept it.

Angie - (seriously now) dont go round telling people to shoot themselves, thats just low.

redstar2000

31st March 2003, 03:13

Actually, hawarameen, the history of colonial America is quite instructive in this regard.

When the Europeans showed up, they found a situation in which some weak native American tribes were oppressed and exploited by other, stronger tribes. The oppressed tribes immediately made common cause with the Europeans, even providing warriors on both sides of inter-European conflicts in hopes of territorial and material rewards. Now and then, it paid off...at least for a little while.

Of course, they had no "western" concept of abstract freedom to guide them...they simply did not wish to be ruled by another tribe, simply because the other tribe was stronger or had more warriors. Thus, in effect, the weaker tribes did hail the Europeans as "liberators"...even though they didn't have the word.

The same thing took place in Mexico and Peru; the weak tribes joined the Europeans in a "war of liberation" against the Aztecs and the Incas. It didn't do them all that much good in the end; but you can understand why they did it.

:cool: