International Women's Day 2006 [Archive]

PRC-UTE

9th March 2006, 01:15

8 March 2006
Irish Republican Socialist Committees of North America

International Women's Day 2006

On behalf of the Irish Republican Socialist Movement, the Irish
Republican Socialist Committees of North America issue the following
statement to mark International Women's Day 2006.

International Women's Day is observed on 8 March every year to
celebrate the economic, political, and social achievements of women
and to call for full gender equality worldwide.

On 8 March 1857, female garment workers in New York City staged a
protest against inhumane working conditions and low wages. The
protestors were attacked by police and dispersed, but two years later
they formed a labor union to fight for their rights as workers. On 8
March 1908, 15,000 women marched through New York City demanding
shorter work hours, better pay, voting rights, and an end to child
labor. Their slogan was "Bread and Roses", with bread symbolising
economic security and roses a better quality of life.

In May 1908, the Socialist Party of America designated the last Sunday
in February for the observance of National Women's Day, which was
celebrated for the first time on 28 February 1909. In 1910, the
Socialist International established the first International Women's
Day to honor the movement for women's rights and to assist in
achieving universal suffrage for women. The first IWD was held on 19
March 1911 in Germany, Austria, Denmark, and other European countries.

In 1917, with 2 million Russian soldiers dead in the war, Russian
women again chose the last Sunday in February to strike for "bread and
peace", despite the opposition of political leaders to the timing of
the strike. The strike occurred on 23 February by the Julian calendar
then in use in Russia, but on 8 March by the Gregorian calendar in use
elsewhere. Four days later the Czar was forced to abdicate and the
provisional government granted women the right to vote.

In 1975, which had been designated International Women's Year, the
United Nations gave official sanction to and began sponsoring
International Women's Day.

While we recognise that women have made economic, political, and
social gains, it must be kept in mind that this is not the same thing
as liberation. Middle class women in western capitalist nations may
have more life options now than at any time in the past, but
throughout the world women, especially workers and peasants, continue
to be victims of poverty, labor exploitation, sexual exploitation,
violence, rape, and religious dictates. The modern day slave trade
exploits women primarily for sexual purposes, and the number of women
who have been victimised by this trade is staggering. Even in the US,
the rights of women are under assault by religious fundamentalists,
especially the right of women to choose abortion. Women who are
lesbian, bisexual, or transgendered are doubly oppressed as women and
as sexual minorities.

In Ireland, the Irish Republican Socialist Movement has always been at
the forefront of supporting women's liberation, and women have always
been an integral part of our movement. When the Irish Republican
Socialist Party was founded on 8 December 1974, four women were
elected to its first national executive. At its first Ard-Fheis
(convention) in 1975, it became one of the first parties in Ireland to
support a woman's right to choose abortion and to call for full
equality for lesbians. Its second chairperson was a woman, Miriam
Daly, and at one point in the early 1980s much of its leadership was
female. Women have also been active as volunteers in the Irish
National Liberation Army.

In conclusion, we say that women's liberation can only be realised
within the context of a global struggle to liberate all oppressed
people. We must boldly go forward in our struggle for socialism and
the liberation of humankind from its shackles. We salute all of the
women and men who have fought for women's liberation. Let us all do
our part to make future International Women's Days victorious
celebrations of the full liberation of all women.

###

Irish Republican Socialist Committees of North America
PO Box 8266
Austin TX 78713-8266
USA
[email protected]
http://www.irscna.org/
http://www.irsm.org/irsm.html

Phalanx

9th March 2006, 01:58

We've got alot of work to do to achieve equality...

Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4784784.stm)

Niall

9th March 2006, 13:31

also on march 8th 1987/88 im not 100% sure mairead farrell, an irish volunteer was mercilessly gunned down along with two comrades in arms by an SAS murder squad in Gibraltar. All three were unarmed at the time

Atlas Swallowed

9th March 2006, 14:40

I am for equality. Is thier international mens day? Fuck this politically correct holiday bullshit. It is just a way for the government to pertend they are doing thing about equality. Lets build a monument and have a holiday and all the problems will go away :rolleyes: Maybe the greeting card companies will start printing up some cards and idiots can depart with more of thier money :lol: Crap like this has nothing to do with any issues and is just a distraction. Everyday should be everybodys day in an society run with equality for all. Bullshit holidays will not make this happen.

Red Heretic

9th March 2006, 19:41

I am for equality. Is thier international mens day?

That arguement is like "why isn't there a white pride month?" Or "why is there an international workers day? what about international bourgeoisie day?"

All of those poor white people, men, and capitalists are so oppressed! Boo hoo!

We all know that it's women who beat and rape men, and who domesticate them at the home to serve as maids and sex slaves. It was those oppressor women who bound the feet of men in China, so that they couldn't leave the home and only serve the purpose of sex slaves.

That arguement is absolutely chauvinistic, and you should take a self-criticism on it.

Fuck this politically correct holiday bullshit.

Excuse me? International Women's Day and International Worker's Day (May Day) are both holiday's that were initiated by communists.

Crap like this has nothing to do with any issues and is just a distraction.

Women are a mighty revolutionary force, and the heart of the proletariat. The liberation of women is KEY to the success of the world wide porletarian revolution.

Comrade Lenin said "A revolution is measured by the degree to which it liberates women."

Once again, I strongly stress that you should take a self-criticism on these points.

bolshevik butcher

9th March 2006, 19:44

I think that its an important day and all real communists are feminists. However I was reading somewhere that originally it was internationl working womens day, dont know if theres any truch in that though.

Xanthus

9th March 2006, 20:33

Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 9 2006, 11:47 AM
I think that its an important day and all real communists are feminists. However I was reading somewhere that originally it was internationl working womens day, dont know if theres any truch in that though.
Yup, that's absolutely true. Like everything else which should be a celebration of workers' struggle, it's been watered down by capitalist society.

Here's an excellent article about the history of International Working Women's Day.

Women and Revolution - On International Working Women's Day 2005 (http://www.marxist.com/international-working-womens-day-2005-2.htm)

Edit: decided to add a historical document to this:
V. I. Lenin: International Working Women’s Day (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1921/mar/04.htm)

Atlas Swallowed

9th March 2006, 20:40

Originally posted by Red [email protected] 9 2006, 07:44 PM

That arguement is absolutely chauvinistic, and you should take a self-criticism on it.

Excuse me? International Women's Day and International Worker's Day (May Day) are both holiday's that were initiated by communists.

Women are a mighty revolutionary force, and the heart of the proletariat. The liberation of women is KEY to the success of the world wide porletarian revolution.

Comrade Lenin said "A revolution is measured by the degree to which it liberates women."

Once again, I strongly stress that you should take a self-criticism on these points.
Equality is a two edged sword, which means if everyone is equal, putting one group on a pedestal is not equality. I don't want International Mens day it was sarcasam. How is being for true equality between both sexes chavunistic?

My post was not a critisism of women. My wife and I live as equal, we both work, we both do housework, we both cook, we both raise the children and we make decesions together as equals. The word obey was taken out of our wedding vows.

I am not a Communist but an Anarchist and really do not care what Comrade Lenin said as I am not a big fan of his.

The point I was trying to make, which I admit I did a shitty job in trying is that everyday should be equality day. We should live it everyday and not need a special day to tell women or any other groups how we appreciate them because it will be obvious everyday.

Sorry I lost my bottle of self-criticism so I can not take them :)

OkaCrisis

9th March 2006, 22:45

:(

If you're an anarchist, why even subscribe to the capitalist, patriarchal insitution of marriage? Do you refer to your wife, and do others, as "Mrs."? Is she your property? Do you own her?

I was saddened by both of your posts.

should live it everyday and not need a special day to tell women or any other groups how we appreciate them because it will be obvious everyday.
But we don't. Every day women are vicitmized, raped, brutalized, go missing, get served last, make less money, and get less education, than their male counterparts.

I can't feel safe walking down my street at night because every day is NOT women's day, every day is crazy capitalist day, and the products of this are unsafe streets and unsafe homes for women. That's reality, every day.

Equality is a two edged sword, which means if everyone is equal, putting one group on a pedestal is not equality.
Nobody wants to be put on a pedastol. Women need a day to be recognized in a society that all too often diregards them and their achievements.

Don't feel jealous or whatever that men don't have a day to commemorate thier... whatever. JOIN in and celebrate (Working) Women's Day, and show women that you support their liberation, the end of their exploitation, and their freedom from oppression.

redstar2000

10th March 2006, 16:37

IRAN'S BRUTAL ASSAULT YESTERDAY ON WOMEN CELEBRATING INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY (http://direland.typepad.com/direland/2006/03/irans_brutal_as.html)

The peaceful gathering of women's rights activists, women's groups and human rights defenders who had gathered in Park Daneshjoo (Student Park) yesterday, in commemoration of March 8th, International Women's Day, ended in violence, when they were attacked and assaulted by plain clothes militia, special anti riot forces of the Revolutionary guards, soldiers and police.

Defenders of Islam are welcome to comment. :angry:

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

10th March 2006, 17:04

Shia fundementalist islamist law as its practiced by the Iranian government has nothing to do with mainstream or progressive islam. The Mujahedin-E-Khalq Organization, the principle opposition group against the Iranian government is both marxist and islamic and has a female president for instance.

Rakshas

10th March 2006, 17:17

Shia fundementalist islamist law as its practiced by the Iranian government has nothing to do with mainstream or progressive islam.Another apologist for Islam. :o

The Mujahedin-E-Khalq Organization, the principle opposition group against the Iranian government is both marxist and islamic and has a female president for instance.I have formed a party which is both Marxist and Capitalist and it is headed by a proletarian. :lol:

Atlas Swallowed

10th March 2006, 17:37

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 10:48 PM
:(

If you're an anarchist, why even subscribe to the capitalist, patriarchal insitution of marriage? Do you refer to your wife, and do others, as "Mrs."? Is she your property? Do you own her?

I was saddened by both of your posts.

should live it everyday and not need a special day to tell women or any other groups how we appreciate them because it will be obvious everyday.
But we don't. Every day women are vicitmized, raped, brutalized, go missing, get served last, make less money, and get less education, than their male counterparts.

I can't feel safe walking down my street at night because every day is NOT women's day, every day is crazy capitalist day, and the products of this are unsafe streets and unsafe homes for women. That's reality, every day.

Equality is a two edged sword, which means if everyone is equal, putting one group on a pedestal is not equality.
Nobody wants to be put on a pedastol. Women need a day to be recognized in a society that all too often diregards them and their achievements.

Don't feel jealous or whatever that men don't have a day to commemorate thier... whatever. JOIN in and celebrate (Working) Women's Day, and show women that you support their liberation, the end of their exploitation, and their freedom from oppression.
Marrage has been around longer than capitalism.

Why do you assume I own my wife, you could make the assumption she owns me. Both are incorrect.

I have been married longer than I have been an Anarchist. I used to have faith in working within the system and was a Ralph Nader supporter. My wife is not an Anarchistand she is a devout Catholic and if I did not marry her we would probably not be together :) Love is a long string of compromises.

What is so sad about hating holidays? bah humbug.

Feel jealous :rolleyes: I believe in equality for all and do not think holidays or going to change a damn thing. I do not need to celebrate a stupid holiday to appreciate women since it is an everyday thing with me. The people who oppess women are not going to be swayed by a holiday, it usually takes violence to sway people such as them. In the USA it will take the current government and system being toppled.

redstar2000

10th March 2006, 23:20

Originally posted by TragicClown
The Mujahedin-E-Khalq Organization, the principle opposition group against the Iranian government is both Marxist and Islamic and has a female president for instance.

I am quite ready to cheer on any political group in Iran that wants to overthrow the mullahs.

Going further, what needs to happen in Iran is to hang every last one of those bastards! :angry:

Nevertheless, it is not possible to be "both Marxist and Islamic"...and anyone who makes such a claim is either confused or lying.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

piet11111

11th March 2006, 01:22

well a muslim exposed to marxism is atleast a step in the right direction.
now they have to realise that islam is mere superstition and something hammered into your head since childhood is hard to get rid of.

i have been bombarded with christianity in school and i managed to get rid of it after a very very long time.
its incredible hard to force yourself to realise the world is a hell-hole because some poeple made it that way.
nobody wants to accept something like that and as such i think its harder to get rid of it then any other addiction and i indeed consider religion an addiction.

Red Heretic

11th March 2006, 07:04

I'm interested to hear your take on things RS2000, what do you think of the Communist Party of Iran (Maoist) which is also a member of the RIM (ie. affiliated with the Communist Party of Nepal (Maoist)), and it's preparations to launch a People's War in Iran?

Their website is here (http://www.sarbedaran.org/) if anyone can read/translate Farsi for us.

PRC-UTE

11th March 2006, 08:07

Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 9 2006, 07:47 PM
I think that its an important day and all real communists are feminists. However I was reading somewhere that originally it was internationl working womens day, dont know if theres any truch in that though.
Yes, it says that in the statement I posted above actually. Apparently the holiday has socialist roots.

redstar2000

11th March 2006, 08:59

Islam Craps on Women Again!

Originally posted by BBC+--> (BBC)Malaysia 'apartheid' row deepens

There has been an angry reaction in Malaysia to remarks by the daughter of the former PM comparing Muslim women to black South Africans under apartheid.

Conservative Muslim women's groups say Marina Mahathir brought shame on the country by saying new Islamic laws have made local women second class citizens.

Her remarks were published with cuts in her regular newspaper column on Friday after being held back for several days.

Marina Mahathir is a prominent campaigner for women's rights.

"Her prejudiced views and assumptions smack of ignorance of the objectives and methodology of the Sharia, and a slavish capitulation to western feminism's notions of women's rights, gender equality and sexuality," the Muslim Professionals Forum (MPF) said in a statement to the BBC.[/b]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/asia-pacific/4795808.stm

What a surprise! :angry:

Red Heretic
I'm interested to hear your take on things RS2000, what do you think of the Communist Party of Iran (Maoist) which is also a member of the RIM (i.e., affiliated with the Communist Party of Nepal (Maoist)), and its preparations to launch a People's War in Iran?

Off hand, it strikes me that Iran is too urbanized to make a protracted People's War practical. But if the CPI(M) wants to try, that's fine with me and I hope they win!

Not least because it would be a potentially stunning set-back for Islam. :)

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

Tekun

11th March 2006, 11:43

I agree with Atlas completely

The fact is that commemorating an International Women's Day will do nothing to bring about equality throughout the world
Sure women have been more brutalized than men, but no holiday will ever change the past or the future
Its just another holiday ignored by most people
The only way for true gender equalilty to come about is through revolution to overthrow class and gender hierarchies
Our commitment to revolution and freedom, is IMO our way of showing solidarity for the liberation of women

Here in Southern California, none of the people I know realized or knew about Intl Women's day
As such, u can imagine the interest that people around my neck of the woods have in regards to feminism
So it goes to show that holidays: Christmas, Valentines, Women's Day
Do nothing to empower the people who have been oppressed, its just a day for ppl to feel good about themselves, when if they joined our movement they would do something active to bring about equality

Red Heretic

12th March 2006, 07:30

Marrage has been around longer than capitalism.

Why do you assume I own my wife, you could make the assumption she owns me. Both are incorrect.

Of course it has, but it takes the expression of the class that rules a particular society. For example, in fuedalism, when it was the fuedal aristocracy that ruled society, thier set of morality put forth that a marriage was between a man and his many wives, who were considered to be a part of his property.

For example, Engels pointed out that the word "family" is derived from the Roman word which means "all of the property which belongs to a man." A traditional family is composed of a man's cattle, wives, and children. All of these were considered to be his property.

In capitalism, marriage takes a different form and expression. It rejects polygamy for the monogamous ownership of women.

Capitalist marriage still uses the same general oppressive relations that fuedal marriage uses. For example, the tradition that a woman is to take the last name of the man who she is wed to, is derived from feudalism, which had women take the last name of the man which owned them, so as to show the other men in town which particular man's property they were. In capitalism, women take a man's last name in marriage to show that they are this man's property.

Never in Human history have women "ruled" over men, like you whine about.

Socialist marriage is a radically different institution which is based on love and equality, but until the proletariat is the class which is in command of society, that will not be the case.

Women who have been more oppressed that men, need more liberation than men. It is the same reason why Black people are still more oppressed than white people, even though they have "equal" opportunities under capitalism.

To use the example of Black people, consider the situation of Black people for a moment. They grow up in a society that tells them they are inevitably stupid, that they are gangsters, and that they are worthless. In a society like that, it is EXTREMELY progressive for a Black person to come forward and say "I'm proud of my people! I'm proud to be Black!"

In the case of women, women grow up being told they cannot excell in society, that they should be domesticated and kept at home. That the entire purpose of their lives live under a "protective" and dominating male who keeps them at home, and whose children they must raise. They are taught that they best thing they could ever do with their life is raise a "man's" children, and that they should dream about that, that that should be the sole purpose of their lives. That when they engage in sex, their primary goal should be to please the male and not seek satisfaction themselves. They are taught that they are naturally more stupid and more weak than their male peers.

In a capitalist society like that, where women come forward and say "We're proud to be women! We don't need to be ruled!" Nothing could be more radical, more revolutionary, and more liberating, short of the actual proletarian revolution itself.

I believe in equality for all and do not think holidays or going to change a damn thing.

Of course holidays in themselves are not going to end the oppression of women. The purpose of them is to further the struggle of women, to tie the struggle of women for liberation into the proletarian revolution, and to help other women to become conscious of their revolutionary potential.

Women will not really ever be liberated until all class distinctions have been abolished and we get to a world-wide classless society (communism). However, great strides will be made toward the liberation of women in socialism, and actions like International Women's Day will help further the revolutionary consciousness of women, just like May Day (International Worker's Day) furthers the revolutionary consciousness of workers.

Atlas Swallowed

12th March 2006, 12:56

Originally posted by Red [email protected] 12 2006, 07:33 AM
Why do you assume I own my wife, you could make the assumption she owns me. Both are incorrect.

Never in Human history have women "ruled" over men, like you whine about.

Socialist marriage is a radically different institution which is based on love and equality, but until the proletariat is the class which is in command of society, that will not be the case.

[/quote]
In many marrages the woman is dominant and could be concidered the owner of the husband. I respect women and thier strenths. I never stated anthing about women owning men in a historical content. How did you get whining out this statment? :rolleyes:

Our marrage is between myself and the woman I love. The society has nothing to with it. We would be married regardless of what type of society we lived under. If you think that we should not marry because we live in a capitalist society then you sir are a jackass. By the way my wife kept her maiden name :)

Your spiel would have been appropriate if I were a chavunist. If you are against marridge, fine that is your problem. My marridge is a personal relationship of equals who love each other. Society and history be damned. The society I live under does not dictate my beliefs.

OkaCrisis

12th March 2006, 17:27

Atlas,

It has almost nothing to do with your individual marriage, where your wife and yourself act as equals and love each other. It has more to do with the vast majority of the rest of the marriages in this world where the woman is seen as no more than a vessel for semen, as a carrier of men's children, and as a mother/maid/servant/slave to her working husband- often while she also works!

The fact is that too many women never have the opportunity to have a successful career (be it due to children, or the 'glass ceiling' that they encounter in workplaces, or their indoctrination that marriage is thier sole purpose in life). They never have the opportunity to get a full education, or to travel the world.

In a capitalist society like that, where women come forward and say "We're proud to be women! We don't need to be ruled!" Nothing could be more radical, more revolutionary, and more liberating, short of the actual proletarian revolution itself.

If Women's Day accomplishes nothing at all, except to force women to consider why they should have a day to commemorate them (just like you, Atlas, question the validity of the 'holiday') then that is enough, because when they look for the reasons why there should be a Women's Day they may find the truth- that they are oppressed! And when they discover this shocking fact, they are that much more likely to participate in the movement, and to take a stand against their oppression.

Educating women about their oppression is the first step to their emancipation and liberation. If they have no idea that they exist for other purposes than for men's purposes alone, then they will never break the cycle and fight back.

Women need to see other women working, learning, fighting, and marching in solidarity to know that they have power, as a mass, and as individuals, to rule their own lives, and maybe to change the world.

I just think it's silly to denounce a 'holiday' that does so much to further the cause of exactly half of the population on this planet.

Red Heretic

12th March 2006, 18:42

In many marrages the woman is dominant and could be concidered the owner of the husband.

What the fuck planet do you come from?

Is it the poor "oppressed" men who get beaten every night? Is it the poor oppressed men who are raped by the men they are married to, and then told that there is nothing wrong with that? The poor oppressed men who are forced to stay at home and slave in servitude of those ruler women? Do men have thier feet broken in half and then bound so that they cannot leave the home of the man which they "belong" to?

I respect women and thier strenths.

Then drop the fucking chauvinist shit. You are making yourself out to be a class enemy.

Our marrage is between myself and the woman I love. The society has nothing to with it. We would be married regardless of what type of society we lived under. If you think that we should not marry because we live in a capitalist society then you sir are a jackass.

I never said that people living under bourgeois rule should not be married, or should not fall in love. I'd like to fall in love myself. However, it is the responsibility of every communist to do whatever they can to work to make that marriage or relationship to be a liberating social relation, and not an oppressive one.

Men must work to do their fair share of the house work. Men should do their own dishes, their own laundry, clean the home, vacuum, etc. They shouldn't attempt to control the women whom they are married to, or in love with. etc.

It is impossible to actually have a relationship that exists solely on the basis of love and equality in capitalism, because social pressure in capitalist society push and even force women into relationships. The society as a whole pushes her toward male oppression, even within individual marriages. You are essentially trying to abstract yourself from the rest of society like a bourgeois man who doesn't want to belive he is as bad as he really is, and pretends that while the rest of the bourgeoisie may be bad, he is "different" and he is a "good man."

However, we must strive to have loving relationships on the basis of equality, even if they are not completely attainable, until we get to socialism, and eventually communism.

The society I live under does not dictate my beliefs.

Whether you realize it or not, it plays an enourmous role in the social relations in your life. It compels her to stay in a marriage with you, whether she wants to or not. It tells her she needs a man. It tells you that you are some sort of protector and guardian of her. You claim the social relations of this system don't effect you, but you don't even realize what these social relations are.

Oh, and OkaCrisis, good post ;)

Atlas Swallowed

12th March 2006, 21:28

Originally posted by Red [email protected] 12 2006, 06:45 PM

1.What the fuck planet do you come from?

2.Then drop the fucking chauvinist shit. You are making yourself out to be a class enemy.

3. However, it is the responsibility of every communist to do whatever they can to work to make that marriage or relationship to be a liberating social relation, and not an oppressive one.

4.Men must work to do their fair share of the house work. Men should do their own dishes, their own laundry, clean the home, vacuum, etc. They shouldn't attempt to control the women whom they are married to, or in love with. etc.

5. You are essentially trying to abstract yourself from the rest of society like a bourgeois man who doesn't want to belive he is as bad as he really is, and pretends that while the rest of the bourgeoisie may be bad, he is "different" and he is a "good man."

The society I live under does not dictate my beliefs.

6. You claim the social relations of this system don't effect you [/quote]
1. Earth.

2. I made no chavunistic statements. Just because we disagree that makes me a class enemy? Nice totaltarian attitude are you a Stalinist?

3. My marridge is not an oppressive one, so stop the preaching.

4. You obviously did not read my previous posts.

5. Fuck you and your inaccurate assumptions. That is very insulting and based on nothing except what you pulled out of your asshole.

6. They do not effect my beliefs.

Atlas Swallowed

12th March 2006, 21:34

Oka Crisis, you are preaching to the choir. My point was I do not believe a holiday is going to change anything and perhaps just trivialize womens inequality.

OkaCrisis

13th March 2006, 05:43

Originally posted by Atlas [email protected] 12 2006, 05:37 PM
Oka Crisis, you are preaching to the choir. My point was I do not believe a holiday is going to change anything and perhaps just trivialize womens inequality.
You know, I think I see your (poorly communicated) point, Atlas.

In today's world, where we all agree that women are constantly recieving the proverbial 'short end of the stick', a day purpoting to celebrate the "accomplishments and/or equality" of women may actually be serving to pacify a population that otherwise should be pretty fucking angry...

Is the apparent celebration, recognition, organization, and community-building, of Women's Day more valuable than the negation of class-consciousness, that keeps women complacent by giving them one day a year to be valued as, and proud to be, a woman?

Maybe.

Or, perhaps it might be more effective to counter-demonstrate, on something like an anti-Women's Day, to reveal to women the cold hard reality that they are still oppressed, and that there is still so far to go.

Who knows...?!

Red Heretic

13th March 2006, 06:39

I made no chavunistic statements.

"Is thier international mens day?"

"Crap like this has nothing to do with any issues and is just a distraction."

So, in other words, the liberation of women is a "distraction."

"In many marrages the woman is dominant and could be concidered the owner of the husband."

This is a chauvinistic bourgeois outlook. It pretends that the outside world doesn't play into the relationship of the individual. It pretends that economics, family, mass media, friends, etc. do not compel women into relationships unconsensually.

Nice totaltarian attitude are you a Stalinist?

Oh yeah, that was so totally totalitarian, because we all know that I had the secret police check you out before I made this post. :rolleyes:

As for Stalin, I criticize his many mistakes, but I stand in firm solidarity with the experience of socialism that existed under his leadership. That is, I applaud the advances that were made for women, and the defense of socialism against the Kulaks and the Nazis. That is, I don't condemn the entire larger experience of socialism just because of the mistakes that were made because of Stalin's many shortcomings.

Chairman Mao said that most of the advancements for socialism had to be made by the proletariat acting against Stalin's wishes, because his beauracratic attitude toward handling contradictions got in the way of the advancement of the proletariat.

My marridge is not an oppressive one, so stop the preaching.

First of all, I don't "preach" anything. I am a communist. We communists are scientists, and we struggle with people not on the basis of a dogma, but rather scientific reality.

Second of all, all marriages in a society with classes contain elements inequality and compulsion in romantic relationships. They may or may not come through you, but they always exist in your marriage and relationships, in some relationships more so than others. These inequalities and various forms of compulsion come through from class society in itself, which forces women into relationships.

The two main modes by which class society does these things are through:

1. The economic structure of society which creates an economic need for women to seek out a man, in order for her to rise up above the level of subsistence poverty.. Even after she is in the relationship, economics continue to play a role, as they force her to be unable to leave an unfulfilling or even abusive relationship from fear of poverty or even homelessness.

and

2. The superstructure of society, which is composed of culture and social forces. Her family, friends, television, books, religion, etc. tell her that she needs to be in a marriage and she needs to serve a man to be a respectable woman in this society. Free spirited women are labelled either "*****es" or "sluts," depending on which way it is that they deviate from male domination.

They do not effect my beliefs.

NEWSFLASH! You beliefs are not the only factor in your marriage! Your marriage did not take place, and does not exist, inside of a vacuum or a void! You are a part of this society, and this society enforces oppressive social relations!

Atlas Swallowed

13th March 2006, 12:59

Originally posted by Red [email protected] 13 2006, 06:42 AM
1."Is thier international mens day?"

2."Crap like this has nothing to do with any issues and is just a distraction."

So, in other words, the liberation of women is a "distraction."

3."In many marrages the woman is dominant and could be concidered the owner of the husband."

4.
Nice totaltarian attitude are you a Stalinist?

Oh yeah, that was so totally totalitarian, because we all know that I had the secret police check you out before I made this post. :rolleyes:

5.Chairman Mao said that most of the advancements for socialism had to be made by the proletariat acting against Stalin's wishes, because his beauracratic attitude toward handling contradictions got in the way of the advancement of the proletariat.

6.
My marridge is not an oppressive one, so stop the preaching.

First of all, I don't "preach" anything. I am a communist. We communists are scientists, and we struggle with people not on the basis of a dogma, but rather scientific reality.

7.Second of all, all marriages in a society with classes contain elements inequality and compulsion in romantic relationships. They may or may not come through you, but they always exist in your marriage and relationships, in some relationships more so than others. These inequalities and various forms of compulsion come through from class society in itself, which forces women into relationships.

8.NEWSFLASH! You beliefs are not the only factor in your marriage! Your marriage did not take place, and does not exist, inside of a vacuum or a void! You are a part of this society, and this society enforces oppressive social relations!
1. Sarcasm

2. No the holiday itself :rolleyes:

3. Some women have stronger personalities than the men they married. I am refering to a personal basis, not society or history as a whole. For your defense of women tou do not seem to give them much credit for thier strenths. Thieves have a tendancy to accuse honest men of being thieves, maybe the same is true of chauvenists :)

4. Do not be a jack ass. You accused me of being a class enemy, for a thought crime.

5. Do not tell me of oppression when you defend the tyrant Stalin and top it off with a quote from the tyrant Mao.

6. If by scientist you mean anal retentive, control freak, tyrant defending twit then I agree with you 100%.

7. Oh yeah, that is right she was forced into a relationship with me :unsure: Yeah both of our famillies were against our relationship initially and it would have been easier for both of us if we broke up. Yup you are right she was forced, I must have held a shotgun to her head and forgot about it(sarcasm).

8. Never said they were but as a non-conformist I do what I believe is correct regardless of societys norms.
Yeah, you caught me I am an oppresser, my real name is Ike Turner. Have to go soon it is time for me to rape and beat my wife(more sarcasm).

Newsflash! Put down your books, leave your house and live. As husband and a father of two and full time worker I do not have the leisure to live in the abstract as you do. If it judgmental uncompromising people such as yourself running a Communist society it will only end up in tyranny :angry:

Atlas Swallowed

13th March 2006, 13:10

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 05:46 AM
You know, I think I see your (poorly communicated) point, Atlas.
Thats good, my appologies for my writing skills which are lacking to say the least :) In my years of working I have seen first hand a variety of oppression not only of women but of male minorities and immigrants. It has always disgusted me and has always sparked my anger. If the subject were Black Appreciation day my response would be similar.

Red Heretic

13th March 2006, 20:03

1. Sarcasm

Sarcastic chauvanistic jokes aren't funny. You're like someone who tries to justify jokes about rape as "just a joke." THEY'RE NOT FUCKING FUNNY!

2. No the holiday itself

International women's day is an expression of the revolutionary determination of women. An attack on International Women's Day is an attack on women, just like it is an attack on workers when the American government tries to replace International Workers Day with "Prayer Day."

3. Some women have stronger personalities than the men they married. I am refering to a personal basis, not society or history as a whole. For your defense of women tou do not seem to give them much credit for thier strenths. Thieves have a tendancy to accuse honest men of being thieves, maybe the same is true of chauvenists :)

You just called me a male chauvinist. That is a very bold claim, which I take seriously. If you can point on one place in this thread, or EVER on this entire board that I have made a chauvanistic comment, I will take a full self-criticism.

4. Do not be a jack ass. You accused me of being a class enemy, for a thought crime.

It is not a "thought crime." It is an expression of opressive inequalities and ideas. If you went around talking about lynching Black people, even if you never did it, it would still make you a class enemy.

5. Do not tell me of oppression when you defend the tyrant Stalin and top it off with a quote from the tyrant Mao.

How about you learn to back up your statements? I criticize Stalin's mistakes, but defend his accomplishements. That is called objectivity. You don't just throw out the majority of a program because a smaller protion of of the program is wrong. You correct the mistakes and take the revolution forward.

Oh, and if you are going to call Chairman Mao Tse Tung a tyrant then you better be able to back that up, because it's pure reactionary horseshit.

6. If by scientist you mean anal retentive, control freak, tyrant defending twit then I agree with you 100%.

So are you going actually make any points, or will you continue to waste my time with personal attacks and name calling?

7. Oh yeah, that is right she was forced into a relationship with me :unsure: Yeah both of our famillies were against our relationship initially and it would have been easier for both of us if we broke up. Yup you are right she was forced, I must have held a shotgun to her head and forgot about it(sarcasm).

Did you even read my post? Reread the section on superstructure. It is alot large than you or your family, or even her family. It is society, culture, and economics as a whole that compel women into relationships.

Newsflash! Put down your books, leave your house and live. As husband and a father of two and full time worker I do not have the leisure to live in the abstract as you do.

Leave my house and live? I go to school from 7-2, and then work from 4 until midnight. That's a 15 hour day, plus homework. I give up a large portion of of my free time to post on this forum because I think it is important to struggle with other comrades, and to participate in discussions on this board. When I'm not posting on this forum, I'm generally out working to with friends and comrades working among the masses. Not to mention, I do all of this in secret, because my parents have threatened to send me to boot camp.

I do not "live in the abstract" and sit out sipping tea and crumpets. In two months, I will be moving to a housing project, when I turn 18. My ideology is not the result of me sitting around all day doing nothing, as you are trying to portray it.

If it judgmental uncompromising people such as yourself running a Communist society

So in other words, you're upset that I don't compromise or capitulate with male chauvinism.

I'm actually flattered. :blush:

Led Zeppelin

13th March 2006, 23:09

Originally posted by Red Heretic
It is society, culture, and economics as a whole that compel women into relationships.

Of course this is not always the case, for example; what if the woman is a Communist herself?

You should leave room for individual cases.

Red Heretic

14th March 2006, 07:55

Originally posted by Marxism-Leninism+Mar 13 2006, 11:12 PM--> (Marxism-Leninism @ Mar 13 2006, 11:12 PM)
Red Heretic
It is society, culture, and economics as a whole that compel women into relationships.

Of course this is not always the case, for example; what if the woman is a Communist herself?

You should leave room for individual cases. [/b]
Errr... I need to clarify that statement, comrade. It is wrong to a degree, and I need to take a self-criticism on that.

First of all, let me elaborate some more before directly answering your question comrade. Those things which I listed are not the only forces which compel women into relationships, and I'm sure that in many relationships, real consensual desire and affection play a significant role. However, and this comes back to your question to comrade, it is impossible is a capitalist society to have a relationship based solely on love and affection, even among communists.

For example, a couple of communists might be radically in love with one another, and between the two of them things might seem completely consensual, but that doesn't change the fact that regardless of those things, society, culture, and economics as a whole still weigh on the woman to remain in the relationship, or to seek out the relationship in the first place. If the love dies out, she will still be compelled, at least to some degree, to stay with him out of fear of reprisal from economic turmoil, social forces, and even culture. The fact is that even though she is a communist, and may act against those forces because of her revolutionary determination, those forces still exist.

Only when that entire culture root has been ripped out of society, and in which women can easily move away from their lover without fear of economic reprisal, can relationships be based completely on consensus and equality.

Good question though comrade.

Red Heretic

14th March 2006, 07:59

I think this section of the RCP's Draft Programme is relevant:

Personal and Intimate Relationships

Under capitalism, the human capacity for romantic love and sex as an expression of an intimate relationship between people is twisted into a relation between commodities to be bought and sold, and into relations of domination and exploitation. In the dog-eat-dog world of bourgeois sexual relations, the rules of the game are “use or be used.” And given the patriarchal relations in society, it is overwhelmingly women who suffer the consequences.

People’s desires for intimacy and closeness are continually thwarted because in class society marriage and family relations have historically been a matter of property relations. While capitalist society may modify the forms of this, it does not change the essence of it and in fact gives rise to some new and extreme expressions of these oppressive property relations.

People often view romantic relations as the only shelter they have from the hard realities of life in this system. And the culture of capitalism exploits this need by bombarding people with these notions at every turn. From advertising and popular culture to literature and self-help psychology, this society makes sure that people are inordinately fixated on sex and romance, and this serves as a means of social control.

Proletarian morality, as applied to intimate and sexual relationships, puts fundamental emphasis on overcoming and uprooting the relations of inequality that oppress women.

The new socialist society will foster personal, family, and sexual relations that are based on mutual love, respect, and equality—and not on dominating, disrespecting or taking advantage of people. Social practices that are harmful and demoralizing to the people—for example, sexually objectifying, exploiting, and demeaning people in popular culture—will be abolished. Hedonistic lifestyles that put individual self-gratification over contributing to society or that uphold “male right” in opposition to the liberation of women, will be the subject of criticism and transformation.

An atmosphere in society will be created where people can speak about such things frankly without the influence of religious Puritanism that keeps people ignorant, or fear of repression. At the same time, people will be free to criticize and change social practices that are oppressive, even if they take place in the “privacy” of the family.

Women, who have historically been victimized by the traditional authority of the man in the family, will have the backing of society to rebel against and change op*pres*sive family and personal relationships. (For further discussion of intimate and sexual relations and how they are linked to the pivotal question of the emancipation of women, see the appendix “The Proletarian Revolution and the Eman*ci*pation of Women.”)

Not only are romantic and sexual relations distorted and corrupted in capitalist society, but so too is people’s need for friendship. The endless promotion of competition among individuals and the notion that each person should seek their own “self-fulfillment” above all; the individualizing and isolating influences of the way the functioning of this society structures people’s basic living-family units; the male supremacist relations and conventions and the dominant notions of “gender roles” and of what is appropriate, and inappropriate, conduct among people of the same, or the opposite, sex; the inequalities between nationalities and the racist notions that accompany this; and the exploitative values of capitalist society in general—all this combines to make it difficult for people to establish, and to maintain, close relationships of friendship.

The proletarian revolution shatters the hold of bourgeois power over society. As the transformation of the basic economic, social, and political relations proceeds, and as the moral standards and ideology of the proletariat exert increasing influence in the new society, the basis will more and more be created for people to enter into relationships of friendship and intimacy as fully equal individuals.

Genuine friendships between women and men will flourish. This will be in contrast to capitalist society, where the influence of patriarchy and “male right,” the objectification of women as sex objects, and in general the preoccupation with sex that is promoted, all create serious obstacles to such friendship. Relationships will not be a place to escape the world, take out your anger, or be a petty oppressor, but a place to find love and warmth and closeness between people, sexual and other*wise.

In socialist society, personal relationships, while valued as such, will also be seen in the larger social context in which they exist and in terms of their effect on the ability of the individuals involved to take part in and change society. Do they contribute to revolutionizing society and serving the people, or do they tend to perpetuate the old traditional property and social relations?

redstar2000

14th March 2006, 08:37

Originally posted by RCP
Hedonistic lifestyles that put individual self-gratification over contributing to society...will be the subject of criticism and transformation.

No fun in Chairman Bob's "benevolent despotism". :(

Get over there, boy, and start shoveling those pig turds! :o

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

piet11111

14th March 2006, 09:22

why would anyone even support avakian its obvious that he is a wannabe dictator.
as far as i am concerned he is just another person we need to take care of along with the facists and capitalists.

Atlas Swallowed

14th March 2006, 15:54

Originally posted by Red [email protected] 13 2006, 08:06 PM
1.Sarcastic chauvanistic jokes aren't funny. You're like someone who tries to justify jokes about rape as "just a joke." THEY'RE NOT FUCKING FUNNY!

2.International women's day is an expression of the revolutionary determination of women. An attack on International Women's Day is an attack on women,

3.You just called me a male chauvinist. That is a very bold claim, which I take seriously. If you can point on one place in this thread, or EVER on this entire board that I have made a chauvanistic comment, I will take a full self-criticism.

It is not a "thought crime." It is an expression of opressive inequalities and ideas. If you went around talking about lynching Black people, even if you never did it, it would still make you a class enemy.

5.How about you learn to back up your statements? I criticize Stalin's mistakes, but defend his accomplishements. That is called objectivity. You don't just throw out the majority of a program because a smaller protion of of the program is wrong. You correct the mistakes and take the revolution forward.

6.Oh, and if you are going to call Chairman Mao Tse Tung a tyrant then you better be able to back that up, because it's pure reactionary horseshit.

7.So are you going actually make any points, or will you continue to waste my time with personal attacks and name calling?

8.Did you even read my post? Reread the section on superstructure. It is alot large than you or your family, or even her family. It is society, culture, and economics as a whole that compel women into relationships.

9.
Newsflash! Put down your books, leave your house and live. As husband and a father of two and full time worker I do not have the leisure to live in the abstract as you do.

10
If it judgmental uncompromising people such as yourself running a Communist society

So in other words, you're upset that I don't compromise or capitulate with male chauvinism.

I'm actually flattered. :blush:
1.Exagerate a little more :rolleyes:

2. That statment is quite a large pile of bovine excrement.

3. Your whole attitude could be considered chavunistic. Your posts make it seem as though women are helpless. Shoot if you ever encountered a real chavunist here your fingers would probably fall off from so much typing :)

4. You are quite the master of exageration.

5. http://www.trussel.com/hf/stalintr.htm

http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/write...stalin/post.htm (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/souvar/works/stalin/post.htm)

http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/dupka/dupka14.htm

http://www.lewrockwell.com/ostrowski/ostrowski71.html

You defend a paranoid murderous tyrant and want to lecture me? For all of the millions of Stalins victims, Fuck you :angry: The majority of his program was right? his program was simply attaning and keeping power.

6. http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/tyrants.htm

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2102-1626700,00.html

http://www.geocities.com/franith/

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE2.HTM

I suppose you do not believe suporting tyrants is reactionary?

7. What goes around comes around.

8. Unfortunatly I did. So many words to say the same things repetitly. Since you see it that way, how again is that my fault? Critsising me and my marridge over things that are beyond my control, real nice.

9. Sucks when somebody makes false assumptions about you :) What goes around comes around again but this one is forgivable most of us do this from time to time as foolish as it may be.

10. I am not a chavunist and that comment illustrates my point perfectly.

Your priorities are all wrong, you support mass murderers and get bent out of shape because I critsised a holiday that trivializes womens struggle for equality. We basically see things very simarlly(as far as woman equality goes) but you accuse me of being a chavunist and a class enemy because my views are not exactly like yours. Maybe when you grow up and gain more expierence in life, you will not be so inflexable and stop admiring demogoges like Mao, Stalin and Avakian :lol: As a apologist for mass murderers you have no justification, lecturing me or anyone else. You should take a self critisim for every humanbeing your heroes have murdered.

Red Heretic

14th March 2006, 20:33

Ahh fuck........ I just did a huge response to that and then accidently x'd out when trying to exit one of my sources. I'll reply when I get home from work. Shit.

Atlas Swallowed

14th March 2006, 21:50

Sorry to hear that. Maybe we should just drop it before it gets uglier. We are both busy people and it is getting silly insulting each other over an interpertation of a holiday. That is entirerly up to you though. My comments seem to have offended you and for that I apologize. If we were discussing the issue face to face they probably would not have because my facial expressions and tone of voice would have made it obvious that some of what I stated was 'tongue in cheek' which is hard to relay in written word especially for someone with my writing skills.

Red Heretic

15th March 2006, 08:50

1.Exagerate a little more :rolleyes:

It's called an analogy. Even if your chauvinism isn't as extreme as my analogy, it is still chauvinism.

2. That statment is quite a large pile of bovine excrement.

How about you quit talking about feces and make some objective points or self-criticisms?

3. Your whole attitude could be considered chavunistic. Your posts make it seem as though women are helpless. Shoot if you ever encountered a real chavunist here your fingers would probably fall off from so much typing :)

Yeah, posting images a Nepali Maoist women with rifles is so totally making women out to be helpless.

When did I make it seem as if women are helpless?

4. You are quite the master of exageration.

See quote 1

5. http://www.trussel.com/hf/stalintr.htm

http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/dupka/dupka14.htm

http://www.lewrockwell.com/ostrowski/ostrowski71.html

You defend a paranoid murderous tyrant and want to lecture me? For all of the millions of Stalins victims, Fuck you :angry: The majority of his program was right? his program was simply attaning and keeping power.

So let's get this straight, you think Stalin is a tyrant, so you post an article by Nikita Khruschev, who restored capitalism, turned the soviet union into an imperialist country, built the Berlin Wall, threatened to nuke China for not submitting to Soviet Imperialism and trying to hold on to socialism, and slaughtering the people of Hungary. Now there's a reputable source!

Here's a few articles about the reality of socialism under Stalin (both his accomplishments and mistakes):

[url=http://rwor.org/a/029/socialism-communism-better-than-capitalism-pt5.htm]The Soviet Experience: Building the World's First Socialist Economy (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/souvar/works/stalin/post.htm[/URL)

Lies Concerning the History of the Soviet Union (http://www.geocities.com/redcomrades/lies.html)

In Search of a Soviet Holocaust (http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Embassy/7213/sov-hol.html)

Life Expectancy Under Stalin Better than Russian Life Expectancy Today (http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/faq/lifeexpectussr.html)

Book: Another View of Stalin (http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/book.html)

Book: The Stalin Era (http://www.plp.org/books/strong_stalin_era.pdf)

6. http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/tyrants.htm

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2102-1626700,00.html

http://www.geocities.com/franith/

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE2.HTM

I suppose you do not believe suporting tyrants is reactionary?

*yawn* Way to dig up those bourgeois sources. If you'd like to make some actual points I would be very happy to respond to them. What is it specifically that makes you believe Mao was a "tyrant?"

9. Sucks when somebody makes false assumptions about you :) What goes around comes around again but this one is forgivable most of us do this from time to time as foolish as it may be.

I never made any assumptions about you personally. My statements were about the institution of male chauvinism as a whole.

I am far to sleepy to respond any further tonight....