More fucking propagandised drones...

[Yazman]

Not sure where to put this, but I figured I'd stick it here in the theory board as it relates to discussion of socialist/communist theory.

I was browsing another forum recently (before you make any comments, YES, I realise it is a conspiracy-based community but let's just ignore that for a second because it has no bearing on the topic at hand) and I happened across a thread full of, well, to put it simply - idiocy, and it got me thinking. There are millions out there who have absolutely no idea what socialism/communism/anarchism are all about; their views are simply those of capitalist propaganda disseminated to them during the cold war era. Have a look through some oft their posts to get an idea of the kind of people I'm talking about:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread197343/pg1

This thread contains many examples of the kind of people I'm talking about. Here's some excerpts just to give you an idea of the kind of misconceptions these people have, that I'm talking about:

Posted by iori_komei:

Why should'nt the E.U become socialist an one large entity, for one Europe has socilaist views as is

Posted by denythestatusquo

Many believe that Europe is heavily socialist now and likely on its way to communism.

Posted by Muaddib

First, I find it strange that you would link "socialism", which is what this conspiracy purportedly states, with "communism".

Muaddib in particular definitely seems to be loaded with cappie propaganda. The above quote made me laugh out loud.

Posted by Muaddib

The problem with Communism is not the Socialist aspects. The dictatorial aspects are the problem. This problem is present in every form of government yet devised by mankind, however in Communism it is compounded by the complete lack of recourse for the majority.

Posted by Muaddib

BTW, if Socialism was better than Capitalism, why is it that there were riots all over Europe not too long ago? Perhaps you should search what happened in those riots, how they started, and why, then come back and tell us how well does Socialism takes care of the poor, and how it gives everyone an ipod, a cell phone, etc, etc.

That's all I'll give you for now as you can see the original topic for yourselves. But back to my point - these people claim to want to "always question", can you believe the slogan of their whole community is actually "deny ignorance?" Well, it seems to me that quite a few of these people simply have not even a basic idea of what the terms socialism and communism mean - they are referring to the EU as "socialist", and even "heavily socialist!"

Now my main question is - there are many, cold-war-propaganda minded people out there who think along these lines - what is to be done? How do we make the truth known to these people without them simply citing the supposed "communist horrors of the gulags," for example?

*edited out north korea, I don't support NK but would simply rather not raise any sectarian issues*

[redstar2000]

This question comes up in a variety of ways...how do we overcome a century of anti-communist propaganda -- much of which has at least some basis in 20th century fact.

Do we just "have to wait" until 20th century "communism" (Leninism) is as dead to human memory as the Victorian Age is to us now?

I'm skeptical that there are any "techniques" of argument that can overcome a mindless prejudice...that is, assumptions made without thinking.

We even see it on this board, though thankfully not in great amounts.

Instead of a reasoned historical evaluation, there's the occasional post that simply proclaims "Stalin was evil" (or Trotsky or Mao or Khrushchev or whoever).

And how does one argue with that?

The excerpts you quote deploring "socialism" in the E.U. are equally uninformed...those poor ignorant sods know as much about Europe as I know about brain surgery. In particular, Americans are infamously ignorant about other countries; they've been told so much that the whole world "revolves around America" that they react like Ptolemaic astronomers confronted with the Copernican hypothesis..."that can't possibly be true!" :o

Like a gambler on a long winning streak: "I can't possibly lose!"

The assumption of "unquestionable superiority" is a symptom of a social system "on the edge of a cliff", of course.

But I know of nothing that can "get through" to people who make such assumptions from ignorance.

In the last analysis, you can only really reason with people who are reasonable.

Unfortunately, the only ways to deal with unreasonable people are (1) simply ignore them until circumstances compel them to become reasonable or (2) threaten or use unreasonable ways to deal with their obstinate unreason.

It's a sad choice...but it's a sad world. :(

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[YKTMX]

Serves you right for going on ridiculous conspiracy sites.

In my experience, most people who are terrified of the 'world government' are pretty far to the right.

The Bolshevik revolution was part of an Illuminati plan to take over the world, for instance...wait a minute, that might have been Redstar actually! :lol:

[Dyst]

What strikes me as most horrifying is the way they teach in school about communism/capitalism to youth in Norway (and from there I suppose alot of other western countries as well.)

It is very much portrayed as an alternative to capitalism (as opposed to it coming after it.) And a very bad alternative of such. They do not exactly "hesitate" to bring up Soviet as an example of a "communist" society gone wrong...


It's a sad choice...but it's a sad world.
Indeed.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I'm sorry, but if you go on a website where it's reasonable to claim that the US government is a socialist dictatorship, you shouldn't be surprised.

[anomaly]

I don't think it's just that website. Go to most any political forum on the net (besides this one, of course), and you will encounter the same ignorance. I've even come across some on reformist Trotsyist forums. I used to write quite a bit on two other forums. But, the incessant ignorance like that described became too much for me. I had to get out of that wasteland.

And I, too, have tried reason with these people. But, like RS2K says, some people are simply unreasonable. And it is sad. But, we might just have to deal with it, atleast for a little while longer.

[Yazman]

Noxion, YouKnowTheyMurderedX, by picking out the website itself you're missing the point. There are people like this all over the place, on thousands of sites out there - just as anomaly said, you'll find them on most political forums.

Redstar, anomaly, it is a good point you have made. It seems that all we can do at this point in time is simply take one of the two options presented (as RS concluded). This is sad but true.

Does anybody else have any other ideas? Any input? I would love to hear from you!

[encephalon]

I've come to realize that if you have the time to sit down with people and go over the basic tenants of communism, step by step by infant step, then they aren't so hostile to it.. I have, in fact, convinced hardcore democrats that reformism is fruitless, and that a proletarian revolution is the only way towards true progress.

Unfortunately, the internet complicates things. People are less willing to listen to what you say and instead showcase their argument, however flawed. In addition, it's difficult to find the time to actually sit down with people and explain things step by step.. for those I've convinced, it's taken weeks of explanation when the occassion arose.

My experience is that once you establish that the soviet union, china, DPRK etc. are about as communist (or socialist) as florida, they tend to approach it with less of a knee-jerk reaction. The problem is adequately pointing that out before they disappear, since it takes quite a bit of explanation as to what communism actually is.