Are we no better?

[Everyday Anarchy]

I've been thinking about leftist tactics vs. right-wing tactics. They seem almost identical.
My main right-wing group of focus was ProtestWarrior. They go to leftist protests and conventions and disrupt them, infilitrate them, and crash them.

So I was thinking "What fascists! We have the freedom of speech."
Yeah, but so do they. As leftists, we crash right-wing cons and sometimes, you'd think we were worse then they right-wingers!

The RCP's campaign "World Can't Wait" had a specific goal at this year's State of the Union address: disrupt the speech. It was clear that the actions were to be "drowning out Bush's speech with shouts of dissent."

The big Republican National Convention protests a while ago were very similar. Although, these protests were less 'attackive' then the RCP's protest. Hundreds of protesters gathered in NYC to "crash the RNC."
How would we feel if a ton of nazis, fascists, and Republicans gathered around at some leftist meeting.

Not that long ago, salad dressing was thrown at a speaker by a member of the Socialist Party. This act was probably the worse that I can recall. At the moment, nobody necessarily knew it was just salad dressing. It could have been acids for all anyone knew.


However, I understand that the revolution will be illegal. It will be violent. And right-wing blood will be spilled (^_^).
So, I raise the questions: Are we any better then the right? and Where is the line drawn between violent protests, that actually favor the anti-left propagand, and a move towards revolution?

[Abakua]

If we were in underground conditions we would have to fear a lot more than "salad" being thrown at us.


We have the freedom of speech."
Yeah, but so do they. As leftists, we crash right-wing cons and sometimes, you'd think we were worse then they right-wingers!


The difference is we are mostly working within legal framework - the fascists are committing illegal acts - incitement to racial hatred etc.. We should not advocate any kind of platform for Fascism.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Xero
Are we any better than the right?

"Better"? Why should we be?

To them, we're sub-human scum who need to be exterminated.

Why shouldn't we think the same about them?

It's class struggle.

How "raw" it gets depends on circumstances.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Goatse]

Our tactics perhpas are the same... however... Che fought with guns, just like the Batista. Does that mean he is as bad as them? The end justifies the means. ^_^

[More Fire for the People]

We are not for such liberal notions as ‘freedom of speech’ but rather proletarian expression. Racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. are not forms of proletarian expression but rather manifestations of bourgeois class rule.

[Everyday Anarchy]

We are not for such liberal notions as ‘freedom of speech’
I was referring to freedom of speech as a basic human right, not something "protected" under the Bill of Rights.

[More Fire for the People]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2006, 04:02 PM

We are not for such liberal notions as ‘freedom of speech’
I was referring to freedom of speech as a basic human right, not something "protected" under the Bill of Rights.
And ask yourself, why is the freedom to discriminate and assault part of such human rights? Leftism is not liberalism, we reject such bourgeois notions as racism, sexism, and homophobia.

[Body Count]

Why do people care if we use similar tactics?

Its not the tactic that is "good" or "bad"...its the idea behind it.

I don't dissagree with the war in Iraq because of the violence....I mean the bottom line is that a revolution involved killing...I disagree with the war in Iraq because it is an american imperialist war for oil!

[Atlas Swallowed]

Tactics may be similar but it is thier government we want abolished. Our tactics have to be somewhat different, we don't get police protection :)

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by redstar2000+Mar 6 2006, 09:24 PM--> (redstar2000 @ Mar 6 2006, 09:24 PM)
Xero
Are we any better than the right?

"Better"? Why should we be?

To them, we're sub-human scum who need to be exterminated.

Why shouldn't we think the same about them?

It's class struggle.

How "raw" it gets depends on circumstances.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif [/b]
This.

I used to think about how being violent toward fascist groups and denying them "freedom of speech" was "bad".

However, we all know that if fascist groups would seize power, many of us would get killed.

Why be nice to them? To show them how we are better?

Revolutionaries shouldn't have any consideration for fascist scumfucks.

[loveme4whoiam]

Indeed, screw the right. But what about what the average bloke on the street thinks of our actions? If we make ourselves look like the right (through the tactics we use), we lose any kind of support we might gain from them.

[Kia]

Does the Ends really Justify the Means?? Could we really justify killing millions of people off and then say, "its okay! The world is a better place today!". I know i couldnt. Becuase we're the underdog in this fight we need to be just as careful about choosing the tactics we fight with as the principles we adopt. The Right holds many important playing cards against us (the media being one) and if we are reckless in presenting ourselves to the average bloke or lady we will loose the "propaganda war".

[Goatse]

Does the Ends really Justify the Means?? Could we really justify killing millions of people off and then say, "its okay! The world is a better place today!"

It depends how much better...

"The end justifies the means" does not mean "If the end result is a tiny bit better, then who cares if we tortured millions of people to get there?" It means the end result justifies the methods if the end is significantly better... it means some things can be sacrificed.

[Commie Rat]

War is War, and if yelling and trashing their meetings are all it takes to rid this world of them then i happy that our jobs is easy.

When push comes to shove, nazi's wont hesitate to pull the trigger and i personally wouldn't think twice about it either.

Am i as bad as them? no, im fighting to rid the world of this scum, and if i have to kill to do it then so be it.

[Iroquois Xavier]

This aint no picnic, of course it is going to get messy when left meets right.

[loveme4whoiam]

Am i as bad as them? no, im fighting to rid the world of this scum, and if i have to kill to do it then so be it.
From their perspective, we are the scum, and they are perpared to kill us to rid the world of scum. Just something to think about.

[cbm989]

Everyone says "the right thinks we are scum and subhuman." Yet everyone here has said we need to kill those nazi scumfucks....im not supporting the right at all. But i HATE hypocrisy. are we not just as hateful?

[Zero]

You also have to compare our ideals to theirs.

Nazis: Rid world of Jewish, gay, retarded, or any sort of Nazi-proclamed "blemish" in society. Establish a single world leader, to which everyone would flock to, and try to please.

Commies: Rid world of inequality, emancipate the worker, get rid of class system, destroy the idea of profit.

You tell me which one is more destructive to human life.

[piet11111]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2006, 10:55 PM
Everyone says "the right thinks we are scum and subhuman." Yet everyone here has said we need to kill those nazi scumfucks....im not supporting the right at all. But i HATE hypocrisy. are we not just as hateful?
we are just as hatefull or even more hatefull.

the thing is that we should not be so damn afraid of how poeple percieve us or worse how history will percieve us.

if we refuse to do the revolution right in 1 time because of some bizarre notion that we must "be better than" the rightwingers and not kill them on sight.
then we pretty much defeated ourselves they will just have to pick up the gun we did not use against them to finish us off.
if that happens it would be century's before another revolution can happen.

[loveme4whoiam]

if that happens it would be century's before another revolution can happen.
Do you see a revolution around the corner, in a Western country that is? A proper revolution really is that far away (less if you ask me, but still several decades off), because the majority of the working class are not politicised, or if they are they do not see an alternative to Capitalism.
It is going to take that long for the proletariat to get so fed up with the current system that they will be willing to change it, which is why we need to be seen as "better than the right", because if they don't like us they will see the right as the alternative, and that's no good for anyone.

And I'm not afraid of how history will perceive us, but I'm very aware of how people will perceive us. As many people have pointed out, a revolution is not a small group of "us", it is the mass uprising of "all". The difference between the two is how the working class perceive "us" and then chose to join the "all".

[piet11111]

i dont see a revolution happening in this decade but i would not be surprised if something happens tomorrow that can change things radically.
the world probably has never been this dynamic since the days of ww2 and the western economy's are highly unstable.
especially so now that america is going for a record debt.

we dont have any reason to be "nice" to the ruling class and if anything we need to become louder in our resistance to the capitalists.
it clear enough to the working class everywhare that current political party's are full of shit especially the ones calling themselves "socialist"
we need to make clear we dont aprove of the current scam the media refer to as "democracy"
everybody more or less knows the capitalist good times are over and that democracy wont chance things unless for the worse.

we need to make clear who we are and what we want and this is especially important because the time of the revolution is not here yet.
if it indeed was the time already i would estimate our chances to be close to nothing for communism because so far we did a very poor job of spreading communist ideology to the working class.

[TomRK1089]

Simple rule of thumb--the hostility of the environment determines the hostility of your reaction.

As has been said, there are worse things than salad dressing. We, if we believ our system is better, need to rise above these petty acts. Not because "It'll look good," but because it's what we believe.

But if you're going to get shot, or are in a revolution like Che, then you deserve the right to live more than the aggressor. It's the guy who throws the first punch who deserves it.

However, in America, we haven't gotten quite that bad. And we should avoid any actions that make it get that bad. The reason people lose interest in leftist appeals is because there will always be extremists who make the rest look bad. Let's mimimize the number of those extremists.

[piet11111]

It's the guy who throws the first punch who deserves it.

it will be us that start the revolution so what are you trying to say ?


However, in America, we haven't gotten quite that bad. And we should avoid any actions that make it get that bad.

so communists should be nice against capitalism ?


The reason people lose interest in leftist appeals is because there will always be extremists who make the rest look bad.

i really dont have a clue what you are saying here.
but im assuming you have a problem with communist extremists.
well thats ok because i have a problem with those ass-kissers of capitalism that are claiming to be socialists.

i dont negotiate with capitalists i kill them when given half the chance to do so.
and if you want to play it save you can stay at home just dont get in my way.

[TomRK1089]

Did I say that there's never a time to fight? No. But you have to choose your battles.

Yeah, at some point there'll be a revolution of some form or another. But when I refer to throwing the first punch, I'm talking about the neo-Nazi who shoots up a leftist convention. Feel free to drop him right there, in my opinion. Blow his head away.

But someone who runs out into the streets and starts killing businessmen isn't a revolutionary, he's a murderer. Let the right wingers continue to 'kill for peace.' I'll have no part in unnecessary bloodshed.

As for extremists, mainstream America will see an anarchist who stes a bad example for the rest and classify the entire left that way, is my point. It's not right, but you can't change it, so avoid it.

[YSR]

i dont negotiate with capitalists i kill them when given half the chance to do so.
and if you want to play it save you can stay at home just dont get in my way.

Somehow I doubt that you do. Perhaps it's the reason that you're posting on an internet message board and not being given the death penalty by the State.

I understand your feelings, comrade, but I think the macho attitude that accompanies them is unneccesary. I'm sure we all agree that capitalists need to be destroyed (whether in a literal or metaphorical sense is open to debate).

Furthermore:

Originally posted by "piet"
we dont have any reason to be "nice" to the ruling class and if anything we need to become louder in our resistance to the capitalists.

No, of course we don't have any reason to be nice. But we do have a reason to not alienate our supporters in the working class. We do have a reason to wait until the time is right. This is because if you, personally, go out and shoot a capitalist tomorrow, not only will you be strung up, there will simply be another one to replace it. I would actually qualify your thoughts on this (to play on what you Marxists call North Korea, China, et al) "deformed liberal". Radicals seek to address the root of the working class's problems: capitalism. Liberals seek to only address the symptoms. Your violent call only deals with the symptoms of capitalism (ie capitalists) not its roots (money, first world complecency, corruption, the state, a thousand other things).

Your words sound really revolutionary and radical and powerful but they simply will not accomplish our goals. The revolution will be messy, no disagreement there. But we have an obligation to minimize that bloodshed. I'm not saying there aren't people who don't deserve death. But piet's words are simply absurd.

[piet11111]

:lol: well i am not going to shoot them when i see them hence the "given half the chance"

i have no intention to do something stupid that would get me killed.
also i dont have a lust for blood but i do want to do everything in my power to keep my komrades save from harm.
and i certainly wont risk leaving a capitalist alive because he seems harmless enough only to hear later that he killed some komrades later on.

also from what i can tell from the posts on this board is that the poeple you are in contact with are less radical then the working class i see and talk with.
perhaps its because i am of the lower lower class (no i did not make a mistake with the lower)
i used to be a cleaner but now im unemployed living on social security that is about 90 euro's a month (dont laugh)
thats because i still live with my parents and with that whooping 90 euro's a month i dont stand a chance in hell of saving money to get my own rental house.