gay in Iran

[dusk]

Our minister of immigrations, Rita verdonk.
Want to send back the gay asylumseekers from iran back.
While everybody knows that they can get the death penalty for that.

Her argument is that it is save now for them.
And that they all can go back without worrying.
Because the gay people that are hanged in iran,
were hanged because they did another 'crime' too !

I think that's bullshit!

The authorities there make up a crime they did.
As an excuse for the world, that they get hanged for that.

And when those people go back it's even easier for the authorities
To prosecute them.
Now they know who these gay people are.

And another argument of minister verdonk was:
That if they wanna be gay in iran they got to be it in secret.
What kind of life is that to have to live like that?!

Does anybody have a opinion about this? :angry:

[GWX]

Of course.. fuck Rita. Iran isn't save for gays.

This is so.. strange..

[Sentinel]

I think it's inhuman to send them back, and would be even if they didn't risk getting hanged.

The atmosphere in Iran makes it impossible for gays, or any sane person, to live their lives in a satisfactory way.

Until the Islamic Revolution has been defeated, I have absolute sympathy for, and support anyone wanting to leave Iran.

I'd of course rather like to see them stay and overthrow the government, but if the circumstances aren't there yet, the only possibility to stay alive for them might be to escape. :(

[Noah]

I agree, sending them back will kill these gay men, whether hanged or simply murdered in some gruesome way or maybe even raped.

[WUOrevolt]

Sounds kinda like Rita might be a homphobe. And the fact that all the gays in Iran were hanged for "other crimes" is completely ridicluous. You and I, as well as Rita and all then people of Iran know that the only reason for them being hanged is that they were gay.

I think that what is needed is a world wide gay rights revolution, so things like this will never happen again, and soon will truly be a thing of the past.

[WUOrevolt]

http://silostudios.com/~thebearoutpost/catalog/images/Rainbow%20flag.JPG

I wonder what Stonewall is in Farsi?

[fernando]

I dont know if the Dutch minister of Integration and Migration is a homophobe...I do know that she isnt really interested in the lives of refugees....I dont think she send these people back as a sign of homophobia. I mean if Christians would get killed in Iran she would send those back to, its nothing against the gender, sexual orientiation or culture of these people, its the fact that they come to the Netherlands what is bothering her and the current Dutch government.

And wtf is up with that flag? I never got that thing...its as if gay people want to preserve the "negative" stereotyping...its like "oh I want to be treated equally in society in which sexuality shouldnt be a problem but I do feel the need to segregate myself by creating overly happy coloured flags, join exclusive homosexual movements and get very bitter and angry at any potentially homophobic remark" No offense meant here...but this sounds kind of strange to me...you want to be treated as an equal but still you feel the need to segregate yourself in such a manner.

[Sentinel]

And wtf is up with that flag? I never got that thing...its as if gay people want to preserve the "negative" stereotyping...its like "oh I want to be treated equally in society in which sexuality shouldnt be a problem but I do feel the need to segregate myself by creating overly happy coloured flags

As for the colours, they symbolise diversity for me.


join exclusive homosexual movements

We would not have anything if we didn't stand up, organize and demand our rights.
And queer pride and communities are also an excellent chance to hang with fellow queer people, meet potential parners and have fun.

What the fuck gives anyone the right to get "bothered" by that? . :angry:


get very bitter and angry at any potentially homophobic remark

Of course! It would be very strange at least to submit to discrimination and derogating in my opinion.


No offense meant here.

No, of course not.. *cough* bullshit *cough*


but this sounds kind of strange to me...you want to be treated as an equal but still you feel the need to segregate yourself in such a manner.

It's not about "segregation", but claiming our right to live our fucking lives.
I don't think I'm any better than anyone because I'm queer. But, sorry Fernando, I do have the right express myself in public.

[fernando]

As for the colours, they symbolise diversity for me.
Hmm...okay but why would a sexual orientation need its own flag to prove this though?


We would not have anything if we didn't stand up, organize and demand our rights.
And queer pride and communities are also an excellent chance to hang with fellow queer people, meet potential parners and have fun.

Okay you make a good point there! I can see how you have to organise yourselves against elements in our society which still have their backward hostile ideas against different sexual orientations.

But wouldnt that also mean I as a hetero sexual person could join up and support the cause of equal threatment of hetero and homosexuals?


Of course! It would be very strange at least to submit to discrimination and derogating in my opinion.
Or jsut dont take it seriously and realise its not worth getting totally pumped up when a person says "fag". I can totally understand when you get pissed off when a homosexual gets killed for his sexual orientation, I would get pissed off too if that happens, however why bother feeling all pissed off when somebody goes "fag!"...I dunno the person calling you (or anybody else) a fag is probably a homophobe...why bother with a moron like that?


No, of course not.. *cough* bullshit *cough*

none was meant...


It's not about "segregation", but claiming our right to live our fucking lives.
Okay you explained that already and I took your point ;) perhaps its the experience I had with dutch society in which everything was segregated as in "catholic schools, newspapers, swimmingpools, parks, pubs, etc etc" and that for every group in society, I dunno...I just thought we could all live in one big happy mix.


I don't think I'm any better than anyone because I'm queer. But, sorry Fernando, I do have the right express myself in public.

Where do I say you cant express yourself in public? For all I care you put big giant billboards with say "queer and proud of it" on it, that is not the problem...I just found it kind of odd that there were so many things such as papers, magazines, radio shows, cd compilation etc etc etc which were "exclusively" gay. No harm is meant here and if I did offend you by questioning this Im sorry, but there is no reason for you to get uptight and cocky about it.

[NovelGentry]

We would not have anything if we didn't stand up, organize and demand our rights.
And queer pride and communities are also an excellent chance to hang with fellow queer people, meet potential parners and have fun.

We're reading "On the Jewish Question" for a study group over at the RA forums... it's interesting to see some of Marx's points about religion have now seen full recognition in other social areas.

[Sentinel]

Hmm...okay but why would a sexual orientation need its own flag to prove this though?

It's about visibility, showing that we exist encourages young people to come out. The heterosexist society teaches that being gay is something to be ashamed of. The gay rights movement counters this by saying everyone should be proud of themselves.


But wouldnt that also mean I as a hetero sexual person could join up and support the cause of equal threatment of hetero and homosexuals?

At least where I live, many straight "famous people" and politicians do that, the swedish queer movement actually annually elects a "Straight of the year" among those people.

Whatever their intentions to show their solidarity, honest or less honest (like fishing votes for some bullshit party or such) their contribution matters.


Or jsut dont take it seriously and realise its not worth getting totally pumped up when a person says "fag". I can totally understand when you get pissed off when a homosexual gets killed for his sexual orientation, I would get pissed off too if that happens, however why bother feeling all pissed off when somebody goes "fag!"...I dunno the person calling you (or anybody else) a fag is probably a homophobe...why bother with a moron like that?

See it's a little more complicated. I'm a 25 year old already out with my sexuality. But many young people don't dare to come out because of the hostile atmosphere in society.

All those little remarks, however trivial, contribute to a general atmosphere in society, which deprives young gay people years of their lives when they hide their identities in fear of persecution.

Then, we have hate crimes.

If say one person gets away with joking about gays, another one gets the impression that it's ok to bash gays more brutally because "they are laughable clowns no one cares about".

The whole thing accelerates, until finally someone thinks it's ok to kill gays. This is the way homophobia breeds and works in society. You might think I'm exaggerating but I am not.

Hate crimes against gays are an increasing feature even here in Sweden, often referred to as "the people's home", a model for equality in the west and so on (a huge exaggeration by bourgeois morons, naturally).


none was meant...

Well, whatever the case, I hope this post clarifies to you, and other readers, why I reacted.

[Black Dagger]

And wtf is up with that flag? I never got that thing...

I'm not suprised!



its as if gay people want to preserve the "negative" stereotyping.

How is a rainbow flag preserving 'negative stereotyping'? The stereotype that queer people are 'happy' and 'colourful'? Those are new to me...



..its like "oh I want to be treated equally in society in which sexuality shouldnt be a problem but I do feel the need to segregate myself by creating overly happy coloured flags,

How is creating a protest flag a form of segregation? And what about the flag is 'happy'? This is an interpretation that you seem to be implying... that has no basis. The flag is about pride, and unity, it's more about anger (it's a flag of protest) than about happiness.



join exclusive homosexual movements

Feeling excluded are you? Despite what you might think, most queer organisations are open to participation from non-queer people, and are not 'separatists' or 'segregationists' that is an absurd accusation.

The reason why queer orgs. and movements exist is because queer people are by default the best people equipped to understanding and thus combating heterosexual oppression/normativity in society, and unlike non-queer people will not approach queer issues from a prejudiced position - something that heterosexual people can be guilty of given their status in and the nature of our society.



and get very bitter and angry at any potentially homophobic remark"

Yeah, sorry, people should take a more relaxed approach to structural discrimination, particularly something in regards to something as peripheral as queerphobia... :unsure:



No offense meant here...

Why'd you even put that in? You must have known it wouldn't save you. It's like people prefacing statements with, "i'm not racist but..." - you're not gonna deflect anything with that i'm afraid.



but this sounds kind of strange to me...you want to be treated as an equal but still you feel the need to segregate yourself in such a manner.

Do you disapprove of the Black Panther Party too? Indigenous movements? Womyn's movements?

As i said above, and numerous times in this forum, the best people to combat oppression are the oppressed. The grave diggers of capitalism are the working class, the grave diggers of queerphobia are queer people themselves. In the same way that working class movements need to be built to struggle against and smash capitalism and the state, black/queer/indigenous/womyn's etc. movements need to be built to struggle against and smash the oppression faced by these groups.

Your continued reference to segregation is also interesting. There is nothing segregationist about queer theory, queer identity politics, queer movements etc.

The goal of queer theory is to smash hetero-patriarchy and the binaries in gender and sexuality that lead to it. This is to be achieved in this society, not in some kind of separate queer utopia, the smashing of hetero-patriarchy is just one facet of a complete social revolution that must take place if a meaningful anarchist-communist society is ever to exist.

Revolution is not just about one's relationship to the means of production, yes - this is crucial, but any successful class war would be a hollow victory if it meant that we still lived in a society characterised by racism, queerphobia, sexism and so forth.



Hmm...okay but why would a sexual orientation need its own flag to prove this though?

You're missing the point. It's not to 'prove' diversity and unity, but to display it - something to be proud of, rather than something that need divide queer people.



But wouldnt that also mean I as a hetero sexual person could join up and support the cause of equal threatment of hetero and homosexuals?

Of course, non-queer allies are always welcome.



Or jsut dont take it seriously and realise its not worth getting totally pumped up when a person says "fag".

Uh... no. 'Fag' is an incredibly offensive word, do you tell black peoples not to get 'totally pumped up' when a person calls them a 'nigger'? These terms are completely bigoted and their use as slurs should not be ignored.

Ignoring heterosexist and racist slurs does nothing to challenge the prejudice that comes with their use. Racists and queerphobes need to be confronted, and such prejudice - smashed. When such obviously prejudiced language is ignored it can also make the words more normative (and thus acceptable for people to use), such as the case with 'gay'- which has been appropiated prejudically on a massive scale, which in turns has made this form of queerphobia a norm amongst young people today.



I can totally understand when you get pissed off when a homosexual gets killed for his sexual orientation,

First of all, not all queer people or 'homosexuals' are men. Secondly, i sincerely doubt that you 'understand', seeing as how you fail to appreciate the negative effects of prejudiced language in society, for people who are subject to it, and how this effects societal norms, attitudes etc.



however why bother feeling all pissed off when somebody goes "fag!"...I dunno the person calling you (or anybody else) a fag is probably a homophobe...why bother with a moron like that?

Why bother??? :huh:

Perhaps because as an anarchist communist, and as a queer man, i want to see queerphobia eradicated?

How do you expect this can be achieved if we just ignore queerphobic speech/queerphobes?

That is just baffling :blink:



..I just thought we could all live in one big happy mix.

Not until structural discrimination has been eradicated, otherwise there will remain a whole lot of angry, oppressed people.



I just found it kind of odd that there were so many things such as papers, magazines, radio shows, cd compilation etc etc etc which were "exclusively" gay.

:lol:

I find this kind of odd, considering how so many things in society are 'exclusively' heterosexual... society itself is hetero-normative.

It's absurd to complain about all this 'special queer stuff', when society itself is geared towards heterosexuals, TV, cinema, language, all aspects of culture - our lives, are hetero-normative.


but there is no reason for you to get uptight and cocky about it.

I'm sorry, but your comments in this thread have been shocking and offensive, and even more so as you a member of the CC... the people who are supposed to 'get it'.

[Reuben]

very well said black dagger

[fernando]

I'm not suprised!

I figured...


How is a rainbow flag preserving 'negative stereotyping'? The stereotype that queer people are 'happy' and 'colourful'? Those are new to me...

The negative stereotype is of overly and artificially happy, overly happy and colourfull are seen as odd. I think I should not have used the word "negative" in it.



How is creating a protest flag a form of segregation? And what about the flag is 'happy'? This is an interpretation that you seem to be implying... that has no basis. The flag is about pride, and unity, it's more about anger (it's a flag of protest) than about happiness.

A flag with lots of shiny and bright colours doesnt look really angry to me...


Feeling excluded are you? Despite what you might think, most queer organisations are open to participation from non-queer people, and are not 'separatists' or 'segregationists' that is an absurd accusation.

The Sentinel already explained that to me thank you very much!


Yeah, sorry, people should take a more relaxed approach to structural discrimination, particularly something in regards to something as peripheral as queerphobia...
Hmm is that how you feel when somebody says the word "fag"? I thought structural discrimination would be more alike to excluding people from society because of for example their sexual orientation. This is just childing offending using homophobic terms, perhaps its because Im not a homosexual myself that to me these are two very different things.


Why'd you even put that in? You must have known it wouldn't save you. It's like people prefacing statements with, "i'm not racist but..." - you're not gonna deflect anything with that i'm afraid.

In an attempt to prevent you from getting all pumped up and probably giving you bad dreams now...


Do you disapprove of the Black Panther Party too? Indigenous movements? Womyn's movements?
I agree with them, however the element of sergegation seems odd to me.


Your continued reference to segregation is also interesting. There is nothing segregationist about queer theory, queer identity politics, queer movements etc.
Yeah...to me this sounds a lot like this dutch term called the "verzuiling" you should look it up.


You're missing the point. It's not to 'prove' diversity and unity, but to display it - something to be proud of, rather than something that need divide queer people.

So its also ok if there would be some sort of flag for hetero sexuals in which they can all feel proud and unified in their own heterosexuality?


Uh... no. 'Fag' is an incredibly offensive word, do you tell black peoples not to get 'totally pumped up' when a person calls them a 'nigger'? These terms are completely bigoted and their use as slurs should not be ignored.

True...well partly...I know enough black people who dont get pumped up when you call them a nigger, they just dont get pumped up about it, realising its not worth starting a fight or whatever over somebody else's ignorance. Same goes for the couple of queer friends I have.


First of all, not all queer people or 'homosexuals' are men. Secondly, i sincerely doubt that you 'understand', seeing as how you fail to appreciate the negative effects of prejudiced language in society, for people who are subject to it, and how this effects societal norms, attitudes etc.

Where did I state that all queer people are men? I used a male as an example because personally I noticed homophobia to be more directed towards men. For some reason lesbianism is practically totally acceptable (bi sexuality is a 'trendy' thing to do) while a homosexual relationship is viewed as disturbing...popular culture is quite fucked up and hypocrit in this matter.


Why bother???

Perhaps because as an anarchist communist, and as a queer man, i want to see queerphobia eradicated?

How do you expect this can be achieved if we just ignore queerphobic speech/queerphobes?

That is just baffling
I agree with you that queerphobia has to be eradicated, but do you think by giving a lecture of beating somebody up who says the word "fag" he/she will no longer use the word. Also note that the word 'fag' has become somewhat of a "normal" offensive remark, not just to use towards gay men/women.


I find this kind of odd, considering how so many things in society are 'exclusively' heterosexual... society itself is hetero-normative.
You should definately watch dutch television sometimes, eventhough its not totally equal in the matter, I mean heterosexuality still sells (we are a capitalist society after all) but its not everywhere totally hetero-normative.
Perhaps movies such as Brokeback Mountain and that other one about the writer (I forgot the title) could be seen as a possible step to making media more equal, so not specifically queer or hetero normative...


I'm sorry, but your comments in this thread have been shocking and offensive, and even more so as you a member of the CC... the people who are supposed to 'get it'.
You get offended so easily? Dear God I wasnt even trying to be offensive! :blink: Besides the CC...well sometimes its the group that is supposed to "get it" other times its just a bunch of people who have been here for some time or have proven to be loyal members and then can talk for hours on who to ban/restrict or not.


very well said black dagger
Wow...that post really added meaning to this thread...

[Sentinel]

Originally posted by NovelGentry+--> (NovelGentry) it's interesting to see some of Marx's points about religion have now seen full recognition in other social areas. [/b]

How is that, Gent? I haven't read "The Jewish Question". I browsed the topic in your forum but I still don't understand what you mean by this. :unsure:

But you got my interest, what do you mean?


fernando
So its also ok if there would be some sort of flag for hetero sexuals in which they can all feel proud and unified in their own heterosexuality?

Since straight people are in majority, and are not opressed for their sexuality, why would they? The only reason I can think of would be them declaring other sexualities inferior.

And pride is not only about displaying the existence of the queer movement to heterosexuals, but to young, "closeted" queer people, to encourage them to be proud of themselves and come out.

I'd say that is the most important reason behind it, as a matter of fact.
It's not about the straight, but the queer people.


do you think by giving a lecture of beating somebody up who says the word "fag" he/she will no longer use the word.

Beating someone up is a different issue. :D

But if "lectured"?

Yes, if he/she used the word out of youthful ignorance or unfamiliarity with these issues.

Obviously not if the person is an asshole, but the people witnessing the conversation might indeed get educated.


Also note that the word 'fag' has become somewhat of a "normal" offensive remark, not just to use towards gay men/women.

Implying there is something so wrong with being homosexual, that being called one should be taken as an insult.

Not so acceptable, eh? :rolleyes:


Perhaps movies such as Brokeback Mountain and that other one about the writer (I forgot the title) could be seen as a possible step to making media more equal, so not specifically queer or hetero normative...

Absolutely, see my comments in this thread (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=45277) about the progressive impact of capitalist popular culture (!) on homophobia, they also apply to commercial movies of this type.

But until that process is complete, as long as queer discrimination exists, queer pride is necessary.

And I agree with BD that you as a leftist and CC member should be aware of it.

[NovelGentry]

How is that, Gent? I haven't read "The Jewish Question". I browsed the topic in your forum but I still don't understand what you mean by this.

But you got my interest, what do you mean?

You'd have to read it to fully understand what I mean.

If I try and summarize it, it'll just sound like bigotry no doubt.

[Guerrilla22]

I personally am offended by anyone who does not like rainbows.

[PRC-UTE]

Man, how difficult would it be to be an Iranian asylum seeker and be gay? You'd get it from all sides.

Has this been done yet, or are they just talking about sending them back? Don't they face certain death?

[fernando]

Ironic in this situation is that the Dutch government has decided that Iranian Christians asylumseekers are allowed to stay. So what can we conclude for this? The Dutch government views that its okay to send homosexuals to a certain death, but its wrong to send Christians to a similar situation.

I love right wing morality! :rolleyes:

[Black Dagger]

The negative stereotype is of overly and artificially happy, overly happy and colourfull are seen as odd.

Ok, but why does the queer flag mean 'overly' or 'artificially happy'? You are the first person that ive ever seen give it this meaning... I'd wager that most people don't give the flag any specific meaning at all, besides of course that they probably know its the flag for 'gays'.



A flag with lots of shiny and bright colours doesnt look really angry to me...

You're missing the point. The flag does not represent 'anger' or 'happiness', it's not that simple. My point was that the flag more often represents protest (people angry at oppressors) than 'happiness', simply because it is a political flag. The flag represents unity, diversity, pride and so forth, and the flag itself is then flown in a context of queerphobia, in a society dominated by a heteropartiarchy. In this context, the flag is one of protest, a flag of the oppressed flown proudly.

The fact that you dont understand the meaning or role of the flag is evident, to you the flag is simply a bunch of 'shiny and bright colours'- that's fine, but your ignorance does not somehow over-ride the meaning that the flag has for queer people, or anyone incuding non-queer people, who do actually understand the flag, queer theory or the queer movement(s).



Hmm is that how you feel when somebody says the word "fag"?

I was being sarcastic.



I thought structural discrimination would be more alike to excluding people from society because of for example their sexual orientation.

It's not about 'excluding' people necessarily, it's using socials structures to reinforce a prejudice.. Language reflects our social structures, and can reinforce structural oppression, taking it to yet another level.



This is just childing offending using homophobic terms, perhaps its because Im not a homosexual myself that to me these are two very different things.

They are connected, language reflects the social structures and is itself created by society. And regardless, none of this negates the fact that 'ignoring' queerphobia is a horrible idea - an idea you never really backed up in this post.



In an attempt to prevent you from getting all pumped up and probably giving you bad dreams now...

Haha, you're not that significant i'm afraid. :P There's so much ignorance and prejudice on this board that your posts really don't stand out, especially since i spent three pages of another thread addressing members with such views.



I agree with them, however the element of sergegation seems odd to me.

So you do 'agree' with the queer movement as well or not?

You misunderstand the purpose of the BPP, womyn's movements, indigenous, queer movements etc. The goal is not segregation, nor are they segregationist, that would be an abuse of the term. Self-determination for the oppressed is not segregation it's common sense, well unless you find working class movements 'odd' too.



Yeah...to me this sounds a lot like this dutch term called the "verzuiling" you should look it up.

I don't understand your point.



So its also ok if there would be some sort of flag for hetero sexuals in which they can all feel proud and unified in their own heterosexuality?

*sigh*

I can't believe 'leftists' keep coming up with these arguments, but here we are again! :(

No, because it would make no sense, in the same way that 'white pride' makes no sense.



True...well partly...I know enough black people who dont get pumped up when you call them a nigger, they just dont get pumped up about it, realising its not worth starting a fight or whatever over somebody else's ignorance. Same goes for the couple of queer friends I have.

That's great, but this is hardly the norm would you agree? If it was these words would have lost their very strong stigmas, which clearly they have not.



Where did I state that all queer people are men?

The way you framed your statement.



For some reason lesbianism is practically totally acceptable (bi sexuality is a 'trendy' thing to do) while a homosexual relationship is viewed as disturbing...popular culture is quite fucked up and hypocrit in this matter.

'Lesbianism' as you call it, and 'homosexual relationships' are the same thing.



but do you think by giving a lecture of beating somebody up who says the word "fag" he/she will no longer use the word.

It's definately more effective than doing nothing at all, as you suggest :unsure:



Also note that the word 'fag' has become somewhat of a "normal" offensive remark, not just to use towards gay men/women.

Exactly! Except that this is not a 'good' thing as you seem to be suggesting, you couldn't be more wrong!

The normalising of queerphobia is exactly what happens when people take YOUR approach to prejudiced language. That is, by ignoring peoples use of prejudiced language, people assume its acceptability and thus its use becomes normalised.



You should definately watch dutch television sometimes, eventhough its not totally equal in the matter, I mean heterosexuality still sells (we are a capitalist society after all) but its not everywhere totally hetero-normative.

No, society is hetero-normative, that is not disputable. A handful of TV shows, a channel or even a whole queer TV station does not alter the fact that our social structures are thoroughly hetero-normative, and that we live in a hetero-patriarchal capitalist society.



Perhaps movies such as Brokeback Mountain and that other one about the writer (I forgot the title) could be seen as a possible step to making media more equal, so not specifically queer or hetero normative...

There have been queer movies or queer-themed movies in the past, these do very little to change the nature of society. You need to appreciate the scale here, for every queer or queer-themed film there are billions that reinforce heterosexuality as normative, and either ignore queer sexualities or reinforce their position as inferior, unnatural and so forth. The same goes for TV shows, books, any media you can think of. Religions, politicians, even the bloody restrooms that we use, all reinforce hetero-normative constructions of gender and sexuality.



You get offended so easily?

What you said was ignorant and offensive, i didnt start crying, but yes, you did/do irritate me. Quite simply because your views do not contribute to combating queer oppression, they worsen it.



Dear God I wasnt even trying to be offensive!

That doesn't really matter, ignorance can be offensive, but whatever, i'm not going to be losing sleep over this thread.

[RedKnight]

This is like when the U.S. turned back ship carrying Jewish refugees, during the Holocaust. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Bi_flag.svg/250px-Bi_flag.svg.png

[Sentinel]

Originally posted by NovelGentry
You'd have to read it to fully understand what I mean.

If I try and summarize it, it'll just sound like bigotry no doubt.

I had a look on it. To not hijack this thread any further, I have started a new one (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=47233&st=0&#entry1292032672) on this topic.