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mzalendo
6th March 2006, 06:44
Here's what some of the crictics say;

>opposers of Guevara including Cuban exiles think of Che as a killer and terrorist

>as quoted in an article by Alvaro Vargas Llosa.For example, in his "Message to the Tricontinental" he writes of "hatred as an element of struggle; unbending hatred for the enemy, which pushes a human being beyond his natural limitations, making him into an effective, violent, selective, and cold-blooded killing machine"

>New York Sun writer, Williams Myers, labels Che as a "sociopathic thug".

>Other US newspaper critics have made similar remarks. They point out that Che Guevara was responsible for the torture and execution of hundreds of people in Cuban prisons, and the murder of many more peasants in the regions controlled or visited by his guerrilla forces

>critic Alvaro Vargas Llosa states "His greatest military achievement in the fight against Batista—taking the city of Santa Clara after ambushing a train with heavy reinforcements—is seriously disputed. Numerous testimonies indicate that the commander of the train surrendered in advance, perhaps after taking bribes

>They believe that Che murdered individuals on dubious grounds and took their property, seized private manors for himself, and distributed property among communist bureaucrats rather than the peasants.

>these critics believe that Che was a major failure at managing the Cuban economy as he "oversaw the near-collapse of sugar production, the failure of industrialization, and the introduction of rationing—all this in what had been one of Latin America’s four most economically successful countries since before the Batista dictatorship

>In addition, some critics believe that because there is no physical evidence of Che earning a medical degree that he was not actually a doctor

>Although much criticism of Guevara and his legacy emanates from the political center and right, there has also been criticism from other political groups such as Anarchists and Civil libertarians, some of whom considered Guevara an authoritarian anti-working class Stalinist, whose goal was the creation of a more bureaucratic state-Stalinist regime

But I tend to digress based on the following facts:


>It was after his tour around his native argentina that he first began to take notice of the poverty of others.

>.even after training as a doctor he chose to forgo the luxuries that came with his career "Guevara got money by writing archaeological articles every now and then but basically he was in rags. This is essentially where he decided how he wanted to live his life and how he was going to overthrow governments. He also developed his disdain for the United States government because he saw them trying to stop socialism (the group that overthrew Arbenz was led by the CIA). "

>but even his most vocal critics attest to the fact that Che Guevara is one of the greatest revolutionaries and greatest Latin Americans to ever live

>soon after the cuban revolution was accomplished he introduced the agrarian reforms program:Che's agrarian program was simple. It was the Zapatista line of "Land for those who work it." This seemed simple to him and was justified by the reality of the countryside, where those who worked the land had nothing and it caused all sorts of problems

>Che leading the Rebel Army, felt that the Rebel Army should be the guarenteeors of the agrarian reform, since the army was made of those who were peasants and those peasants were fighting not only for the Revolution, but indeed that they were fighting for a better way for the peasants of Cuba.

> Che also instituted a principle known as Voluntary labor, which consisted of men doing work for free during a day. It was the beginning of Che's philosophy of "a new man", where people worked for the benefit of society and from that an individual received his reward. This "moral" incentive (as opposed to a material one, where the worker receives a monetary incentive or a house or something for working hard) was far more important to Che's "New" man because it involved improving the lives of the many over the life of the individual.

> all were equal in his eyes In March, rationing was declared for milk, meat, shoes and toothpaste (Taibo, 322). Che insisted that even ministers of the government obey the ration.

>its inconceivable that anybody after fighting his way into the "ideal" life would abandon all he had for a life in the middle of uncertainty He resigned all his offices and renounced his citizenship of Cuba and gave away all his property. Guerilla was the vocation he decided he would return to and this is the vocation he had when he died.

.> But no matter what, one fact remains that no capitalistic critic of Che Guevara or the Cuban revolution will ever be able to erase. The people of Cuba enjoyed a better life after the revolution than before it. Illiteracy was wiped out. Unemployment was eliminated. Cuba became somewhat of an industrial power

i rest my case

guevarista
7th March 2006, 16:42
Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2006, 07:12 AM
Here's what some of the crictics say;

>opposers of Guevara including Cuban exiles think of Che as a killer and terrorist

>as quoted in an article by Alvaro Vargas Llosa.For example, in his "Message to the Tricontinental" he writes of "hatred as an element of struggle; unbending hatred for the enemy, which pushes a human being beyond his natural limitations, making him into an effective, violent, selective, and cold-blooded killing machine"

>New York Sun writer, Williams Myers, labels Che as a "sociopathic thug".

>Other US newspaper critics have made similar remarks. They point out that Che Guevara was responsible for the torture and execution of hundreds of people in Cuban prisons, and the murder of many more peasants in the regions controlled or visited by his guerrilla forces

>critic Alvaro Vargas Llosa states "His greatest military achievement in the fight against Batista—taking the city of Santa Clara after ambushing a train with heavy reinforcements—is seriously disputed. Numerous testimonies indicate that the commander of the train surrendered in advance, perhaps after taking bribes

>They believe that Che murdered individuals on dubious grounds and took their property, seized private manors for himself, and distributed property among communist bureaucrats rather than the peasants.

>these critics believe that Che was a major failure at managing the Cuban economy as he "oversaw the near-collapse of sugar production, the failure of industrialization, and the introduction of rationing—all this in what had been one of Latin America’s four most economically successful countries since before the Batista dictatorship

>In addition, some critics believe that because there is no physical evidence of Che earning a medical degree that he was not actually a doctor

>Although much criticism of Guevara and his legacy emanates from the political center and right, there has also been criticism from other political groups such as Anarchists and Civil libertarians, some of whom considered Guevara an authoritarian anti-working class Stalinist, whose goal was the creation of a more bureaucratic state-Stalinist regime

But I tend to digress based on the following facts:


>It was after his tour around his native argentina that he first began to take notice of the poverty of others.

>.even after training as a doctor he chose to forgo the luxuries that came with his career "Guevara got money by writing archaeological articles every now and then but basically he was in rags. This is essentially where he decided how he wanted to live his life and how he was going to overthrow governments. He also developed his disdain for the United States government because he saw them trying to stop socialism (the group that overthrew Arbenz was led by the CIA). "

>but even his most vocal critics attest to the fact that Che Guevara is one of the greatest revolutionaries and greatest Latin Americans to ever live

>soon after the cuban revolution was accomplished he introduced the agrarian reforms program:Che's agrarian program was simple. It was the Zapatista line of "Land for those who work it." This seemed simple to him and was justified by the reality of the countryside, where those who worked the land had nothing and it caused all sorts of problems

>Che leading the Rebel Army, felt that the Rebel Army should be the guarenteeors of the agrarian reform, since the army was made of those who were peasants and those peasants were fighting not only for the Revolution, but indeed that they were fighting for a better way for the peasants of Cuba.

> Che also instituted a principle known as Voluntary labor, which consisted of men doing work for free during a day. It was the beginning of Che's philosophy of "a new man", where people worked for the benefit of society and from that an individual received his reward. This "moral" incentive (as opposed to a material one, where the worker receives a monetary incentive or a house or something for working hard) was far more important to Che's "New" man because it involved improving the lives of the many over the life of the individual.

> all were equal in his eyes In March, rationing was declared for milk, meat, shoes and toothpaste (Taibo, 322). Che insisted that even ministers of the government obey the ration.

>its inconceivable that anybody after fighting his way into the "ideal" life would abandon all he had for a life in the middle of uncertainty He resigned all his offices and renounced his citizenship of Cuba and gave away all his property. Guerilla was the vocation he decided he would return to and this is the vocation he had when he died.

.> But no matter what, one fact remains that no capitalistic critic of Che Guevara or the Cuban revolution will ever be able to erase. The people of Cuba enjoyed a better life after the revolution than before it. Illiteracy was wiped out. Unemployment was eliminated. Cuba became somewhat of an industrial power

i rest my case
I totally agree in your defense of Che...he was a man with the guts so many of us don´t have. He fighted till the end for what he thought was better for humanity. And he was not currupted by anything or anybody, he was clean in his ideas and wanted to die for them. Crictics of Guevara dream each night of being so fucking GREAT (in every way) as he was...

fernando
7th March 2006, 22:22
Critics of Guevara have nightmares of El Che...they are scared of a unified Latin America which would no longer tolerate the Yankee Imperialists! They fear it every day and night....and they fear it so much that they wil do anything to destroy those who might succeed in Che's legacy!

Niall
9th March 2006, 10:32
american journalists and cuban exiles arent exactly the most unbias people to give opinions on che now are they?

eigenvector
9th March 2006, 10:36
Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 04:45 PM
[QUOTE=mzalendo,Mar 6 2006, 07:12 AM]
I totally agree in your defense of Che...he was a man with the guts so many of us don´t have. He fighted till the end for what he thought was better for humanity. And he was not currupted by anything or anybody, he was clean in his ideas and wanted to die for them. Crictics of Guevara dream each night of being so fucking GREAT (in every way) as he was...
the exact same could be said for ronald reagan <_<

be less general

Le Libérer
9th March 2006, 18:15
Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 10:39 AM

[QUOTE=mzalendo,Mar 6 2006, 07:12 AM]
I totally agree in your defense of Che...he was a man with the guts so many of us don´t have. He fighted till the end for what he thought was better for humanity. And he was not currupted by anything or anybody, he was clean in his ideas and wanted to die for them. Crictics of Guevara dream each night of being so fucking GREAT (in every way) as he was...
the exact same could be said for ronald reagan <_<

be less general
the same could NOT be said by Ronald Reagan. RR never took up arms and defended his people. He gave them to young men to do his bidding.

Clarksist
9th March 2006, 20:04
>opposers of Guevara including Cuban exiles think of Che as a killer and terrorist

Nice to see they give examples. :lol:


>as quoted in an article by Alvaro Vargas Llosa.For example, in his "Message to the Tricontinental" he writes of "hatred as an element of struggle; unbending hatred for the enemy, which pushes a human being beyond his natural limitations, making him into an effective, violent, selective, and cold-blooded killing machine"

He also said, "At the risk of seeming ridiculous, let me say that the true revolutionary is guided by a great feeling of love. It is impossible to think of a genuine revolutionary lacking this quality."


>New York Sun writer, Williams Myers, labels Che as a "sociopathic thug".

I could call Myers a "petit-bourgeois neo-liberal propagandist" but that won&#39;t get anybody anywhere, will it Myers?


>Other US newspaper critics have made similar remarks. They point out that Che Guevara was responsible for the torture and execution of hundreds of people in Cuban prisons, and the murder of many more peasants in the regions controlled or visited by his guerrilla forces

In a revolution, you kill your enemies. That&#39;s the point of war. Some peasants were Batista loyalists who sought to harm the revolution, and of course he would execute Batista&#39;s cronies... they committed horrific atrocities.


>critic Alvaro Vargas Llosa states "His greatest military achievement in the fight against Batista—taking the city of Santa Clara after ambushing a train with heavy reinforcements—is seriously disputed. Numerous testimonies indicate that the commander of the train surrendered in advance, perhaps after taking bribes

And I ask, so? That doesn&#39;t mean anything, he fought to free the Cuban people. How he freed them, within reason, doesn&#39;t matter.


>They believe that Che murdered individuals on dubious grounds and took their property, seized private manors for himself, and distributed property among communist bureaucrats rather than the peasants.

Really? And so he had all these great things and turned into a corrupt government official? Do you remember that he went and died in another revolution??? That doesn&#39;t scream, "corrupt government official" to me.


>these critics believe that Che was a major failure at managing the Cuban economy as he "oversaw the near-collapse of sugar production, the failure of industrialization, and the introduction of rationing—all this in what had been one of Latin America’s four most economically successful countries since before the Batista dictatorship

Sorry, but even the great Che couldn&#39;t have turned it one way or another. He worked over 12 hours a day, and worked weekends extensively, all volunteer unpaid work. I don&#39;t think he sought to wreck Cuba.


>In addition, some critics believe that because there is no physical evidence of Che earning a medical degree that he was not actually a doctor

No physical evidence, but there was widespread testimony from people at his university, his family, and people who knew him.


>Although much criticism of Guevara and his legacy emanates from the political center and right, there has also been criticism from other political groups such as Anarchists and Civil libertarians, some of whom considered Guevara an authoritarian anti-working class Stalinist, whose goal was the creation of a more bureaucratic state-Stalinist regime

And yet, in his personal writings he reflecting feelings of an anti-authoritarian anarchist. Yes, he supported Stalin, but at the time, nobody outside the upper realm of the ruling Communist Party in Russia knew about his crimes.

chebol
14th March 2006, 06:20
From "Man and Socialism in Cuba"
http://www.marxists.org/archive/guevara/19...n-socialism.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/guevara/1965/03/man-socialism.htm)


The Party: Vanguard organisation

The Party is a vanguard organisation. The best workers are proposed by their comrades for membership. The party is a minority but the quality of its cadres gives it great authority. Our aspiration is that the party become a mass one, but only when the masses reach the level of development of the vanguard, that is, when they are educated for communism. Our work is aimed at providing that education. The party is the living example; its cadres must be full professors of assiduity and sacrifice; with their acts they must lead the masses to the end of the revolutionary task, which means years of struggle against the difficulties of construction, the class enemies, the defects of the past, imperialism...

Written like a true anarchist.....

:lol:

YA BASTA VIVA
15th March 2006, 00:03
I have a Cuban friend her dad sall me with a WWCD shirt on(what would che do?)he called him a terrorist and i simply said so did u vote for batista?

~*HastaLaVictoriaSiempre*~
15th March 2006, 04:15
the remarks against che are written purley out of fear. These right wing scum are scared of us communists, anarchists, and libertarians therefore they must express their insults and remarks through non-constructive and cowardly ways. These capatalists call us terrorists and killers when they are the ones who start wars and exploit the lesser just so they can make the dollar. They are cowards, they insult our leaders in attempt to damage us in some way. Cheap insults and remarks like this frusturate the hell out of me <_<

[QUOTE]I have a Cuban friend her dad sall me with a WWCD shirt on(what would che do?)he called him a terrorist and i simply said so did u vote for batista?


"so did you vote for batista?"<<<great response

Omar-forever
15th March 2006, 19:29
The people writing all the crap about Che, want to discourage us, the admirers of Che. They are starting to realise that the youth of the 21st century have found a new beacon to guide them, CHE.
The youth in third World countries see the hollowness of capitalism. Their only defence against it is the adoption of Che&#39;s ideas and principles.
I would like to thankyou for giving me the answers to all my queries about Che. Now I can defend Che&#39;s ideas whenever somebody speaks against him in front of me.

HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE, Comrade&#33;

Karl Marx's Camel
17th March 2006, 12:56
"hatred as an element of struggle; unbending hatred for the enemy, which pushes a human being beyond his natural limitations, making him into an effective, violent, selective, and cold-blooded killing machine"

I really don&#39;t see the problem with this. If anything would drive me to eat half-rotten meat and walk dehydrated through jungles on the brink of death, sleeping only a few hours a day, always fearing military ambushes, then yes, hate would be an essential factor.

Big Boss
17th March 2006, 13:00
I no longer bother to think about every lie that pops out about Che and his actions during his short life. I know (as all of you do) that Che was one the greatest revolutionaries that ever lived and that his deeds reflected his beliefs for which he gave his life. A life aof sacrifice, principle and loyalty to the marginalized of the world.

http://www.fotoajans.com/history/che_guevara/che_guevara_015.jpg

Just wanted to post this picture which made me think about about my father