Why do you guys?

[Communism=Utopia]

well like Voltair once said, "I disagree completely with what you say, but i will defend 'till death your right to say so"....anyways, we dont live in a "totalitarian" country, so we can all express our views, although this site works (to no surprise, lol, as a totalitarian governement) so i can express my views in only this forum...


i just want to introduce myself, well im american, and of course i oppose the views of probably everyone in this site, but i think its interesting the ongoing political discussion of the 20th century, democracy/capitalism vs. totalitarian/commusim, that is why i joined, i have been to countries like Cuba and China, and actually experienced first hand the situation in each country, and trust me guys im no "ignorant american" , ok, and i did not spend my times in resort vacations, i actually have lived in each country, in both the countryside and in the cities....

anyways, i just find some things funny when you argue with a Che/Communist/Socialist/Anti-American/Anti-Capitalist person,


first, when i cite something, you guys always say, "OHH ITS PROPAGANDA",hahahahhaha
i find that funny because i can't believe that you guys mean to tell me that propaganda doesn't exist in countries like Cuba or the ex USSR and North Korea and Vietnam and other communsit/totalitarian couintries?or do you think that people in these country can actually speak their minds?? lmao these people have no access to other countries newspapers...i mean its obvious that the only newspapers, for example in Cuba, Granma, its all controlled by government, and if you think that its the bare truth what they say there, than wow, where have you been living?

another thing, i also find it rediculously funny, when you guys talk about America, and some country who is our ally, and you guys say: "OHH THEY ARE THE PUPPETS OF AMERICA", lmao, have you guys even heard of the Iron Curtain? or do you guys mean to say that pretty much the whole of Eastern Europe weren't puppets of the USSR?? Cuba, North Korea, Laos, Vietnam, etc.. these were not puppets of the USSR right? lmao....

anyways, like i said, i respect what you guys say, and im not trying to convice anyone, and when i see something that is true, i will admit it, there are many wrong things with our American government, and things that we have done, but please give credit where it is due, and accept when something is wrong or right...

thank you

[Zingu]

Your avatar is ridiculous. From it, I probably can conclude you are some delusional super-patriot, who wouldn't even attempt to understand our own views even if we pounded it into your head. :(

I've seen your kind before, you missed the chance to "debate" people who big fans of the State-capitalist nations of Eastern Europe and Asia which you accuse us of supporting or putting up as a strawman to us...I still wish we could redirect all of your types to fascistshithole.com, where you would have truely met that elusive, totally evil external enemy that the ruling class has indoctrinated so many people to hate and fear, and you mistake us for.

Oh well, whoever wants to, on with an other fruitless attempt to speak sense to an other dumbwit. Or defend some other burgeoisie dictatorship that waves a red flag around (Cuba, or even worse, DPRK). :rolleyes:

[ComTom]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 04:11 AM
well like Voltair once said, "I disagree completely with what you say, but i will defend 'till death your right to say so"....anyways, we dont live in a "totalitarian" country, so we can all express our views, although this site works (to no surprise, lol, as a totalitarian governement) so i can express my views in only this forum...


i just want to introduce myself, well im american, and of course i oppose the views of probably everyone in this site, but i think its interesting the ongoing political discussion of the 20th century, democracy/capitalism vs. totalitarian/commusim, that is why i joined, i have been to countries like Cuba and China, and actually experienced first hand the situation in each country, and trust me guys im no "ignorant american" , ok, and i did not spend my times in resort vacations, i actually have lived in each country, in both the countryside and in the cities....

anyways, i just find some things funny when you argue with a Che/Communist/Socialist/Anti-American/Anti-Capitalist person,


first, when i cite something, you guys always say, "OHH ITS PROPAGANDA",hahahahhaha
i find that funny because i can't believe that you guys mean to tell me that propaganda doesn't exist in countries like Cuba or the ex USSR and North Korea and Vietnam and other communsit/totalitarian couintries?or do you think that people in these country can actually speak their minds?? lmao these people have no access to other countries newspapers...i mean its obvious that the only newspapers, for example in Cuba, Granma, its all controlled by government, and if you think that its the bare truth what they say there, than wow, where have you been living?

another thing, i also find it rediculously funny, when you guys talk about America, and some country who is our ally, and you guys say: "OHH THEY ARE THE PUPPETS OF AMERICA", lmao, have you guys even heard of the Iron Curtain? or do you guys mean to say that pretty much the whole of Eastern Europe weren't puppets of the USSR?? Cuba, North Korea, Laos, Vietnam, etc.. these were not puppets of the USSR right? lmao....

anyways, like i said, i respect what you guys say, and im not trying to convice anyone, and when i see something that is true, i will admit it, there are many wrong things with our American government, and things that we have done, but please give credit where it is due, and accept when something is wrong or right...

thank you
I will first like to say that I think we should expand the rights of capitalists and other anti-leftists out of the opposing ideology forum due to the smart thinking of some of them. Argument is for the opposing ideology forum, but if they don't want to argue about something they have every right to post somewhere else.

I am a marxist against the USSR, China, Cuba, Mongolia, Cambodia, Vietnam, Laos, etc., etc. I am not a minority in this forum my capitalist freind, a large group of us are anti-authortarians, anti-stalinists, anti-maoists, and anti-leninists. WE are not a group of Stalinists, go to Marxism Online if you wanna be around Stalinists. Many of us are trotskyites, anarchists, council communists, left communists, etc. etc. Your thinking of Marxism-Leninism, Maoism, and anti-revisionism. The whole site is basically against the ideology ( with the exception of Marxism-Leninism ).

[Zingu]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 04:25 AM

I am a marxist against the USSR, China, Cuba, Mongolia, Cambodia, Vietnam, Laos, etc., etc. I am not a minority in this forum my capitalist freind, a large group of us are anti-authortarians, anti-stalinists, anti-maoists, and anti-leninists. WE are not a group of Stalinists, go to Marxism Online if you wanna be around Stalinists. Many of us are trotskyites, anarchists, council communists, left communists, etc. etc. Your thinking of Marxism-Leninism, Maoism, and anti-revisionism. The whole site is basically against the ideology ( with the exception of Marxism-Leninism ).
Is that the new site they moved to? "Marxism"-Online?

Why are you bothering? He'll just say we are giving ourselves new names/excuses in an attempt to differiante ourselves from Marxism-Leninism and 20th century 'Communism'.

As one said:
"Yeah right, a commie is a commie!"

(Insert southern redneck and country banjo "twanga-twanga" sounds)

The reason why its so stupid too attempt to even reason with these people is because Marxism is a theory, not an ideology (ideology sucks). Even by his username, its pretty clear he hasen't have a slightest clue of Marxism's historical materialism or economic theory. Its something I realized...stop wasting time with these people and just have fun...trying to do otherwise is like trying to teach a chimpanzee to write.

[somebodywhowantedtoleaveandnotcomeback]

You should try reading his political statement... :rolleyes:

[somebodywhowantedtoleaveandnotcomeback]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 05:11 AM
well like Voltair once said, "I disagree completely with what you say, but i will defend 'till death your right to say so"....anyways, we dont live in a "totalitarian" country, so we can all express our views, although this site works (to no surprise, lol, as a totalitarian governement) so i can express my views in only this forum...
Wow you can only start flaming/insluting/talking crap in this forum, so as not to let the board be fucked up by people of your kind. How totalitarian :rolleyes:


i just want to introduce myself, well im american
I'm sorry for you


and of course i oppose the views of probably everyone in this site
Yes, that was pretty obvious from your username :rolleyes:


democracy/capitalism vs. totalitarian/commusim
:lol: :lol:


and trust me guys im no "ignorant american"
*Coughs*


first, when i cite something, you guys always say, "OHH ITS PROPAGANDA",hahahahhaha
Lol? You haven't even cited anything yet, so how could we have responded to that? This shows what kind of crap you're trying to sell us here.


when you guys talk about America, and some country who is our ally, and you guys say: "OHH THEY ARE THE PUPPETS OF AMERICA", lmao, have you guys even heard of the Iron Curtain? or do you guys mean to say that pretty much the whole of Eastern Europe weren't puppets of the USSR?? Cuba, North Korea, Laos, Vietnam, etc.. these were not puppets of the USSR right? lmao....
Oh sorry, we forgot for a moment that because someone else did it, it is OK for you to do it... what are you, like 7 years or so? Grow up.


anyways, like i said, i respect what you guys say
No you don't.


and im not trying to convice anyone
Only because you know it wouldn't work. Why would you want to come to a revolutionary leftist site (hence the name, by the way) to convince people into becoming a right-winged fuck? Don't be stupid. It must be hard, but at least give it a try.


and when i see something that is true, i will admit it
You'd better, though I have a feeling you won't


there are many wrong things with our American government,
Word


and things that we have done
Uhu


but please give credit where it is due
If it wouldv'e been due, sure


and accept when something is wrong or right...
I always do


thank you
You're welcome (well, not litterately)

[Communism=Utopia]

"Your avatar is ridiculous. From it, I probably can conclude you are some delusional super-patriot, who wouldn't even attempt to understand our own views even if we pounded it into your head"..lmao, not really, but when your country is number 1 you can't help to be patriotic, lol just kidding....

alirght, well , i think that if you are pro-Stalin you have to be more than a lunatic in the first place....lol, of course we all know of the anti-Stalin era after his death even in the USSR.....

but anyways, ComTom, thats good, im glad you and i have an understanding of the regimes currently in Cuba and the others you mentioned.....although i can probably give you a debate about China, lol, i dont think China fits the category of the others, they'r the only ones with a capitalist system....(hence why their better off than the rest)......

well ComTom, you seem more reasonable, and i gotta tell you im not really well informed on the Trotskyst, left-communsit, or all the other things you claim to be, so it would be nice if you told me a little about your idiologies, because i have to admit the whole concept of communism is an interesting idea, i believe that Karl Marx really did intend it to be something good, the only flaw with Das Kapital, is itslef, the whole concept of communism in my opinion a utopian idea, and i have been proven right....hence my name Communism=Utopia, Utopia=perfect society=can not be realized in the real world.....

[Zingu]

alirght, well , i think that if you are pro-Stalin you have to be more than a lunatic in the first place....lol, of course we all know of the anti-Stalin era after his death even in the USSR.....


I'm not referring to the era after Stalin; the 'revisionists' were still totalitarian state-capitalist fucks, I would be no freind of the Soviet Union, at any time ever. Communists opossed the Soviet Union literally since 1917.


the only flaw with Das Kapital, is itslef, the whole concept of communism in my opinion a utopian idea, and i have been proven right....hence my name Communism=Utopia, Utopia=perfect society=can not be realized in the real world

Have you even read "Das Kapital"?

[Communism=Utopia]

well Srna i like your style,

"Wow you can only start flaming/insluting/talking crap in this forum, so as not to let the board be fucked up by people of your kind. How totalitarian"

when i have i insulted anyone in this forum? that i can recall by reading all your comments directed towards me the insulting has commed from your part, calling me retarded and saying that what i say is full of crap or whatever

"I'm sorry for you"

So your sorry for me for being American? , are you serious, lol, dude ignorance is your middle name, and your first is stupid.....

"Yes, that was pretty obvious from your username"
well, i dont know, i guess i probably do oppose the views of everyone, but if one thing is for certain, if you share one of your views and makes me realize something i will for sure admit it, and by the way Srna, why dont you do a little of reading, read 1984, read Brave New World, read Animal Farm...dude please educated yourself , and stop trying to be that kid who is different in high school, nobody gives a fuck....

"Lol? You haven't even cited anything yet, so how could we have responded to that? This shows what kind of crap you're trying to sell us here"

hey morong , if you do some careful reading, and your brain cells actually work you can infer that what i was trying to say is when i cited something to someone i was debatin with, i didnt mean it right now , and why do you idiots always feel like we are trying to sell you or promote or w/e something? lmao, is that how insecure you are? lmao, well no wonder your the minority in the world...

"Only because you know it wouldn't work. Why would you want to come to a revolutionary leftist site (hence the name, by the way) to convince people into becoming a right-winged fuck? Don't be stupid. It must be hard, but at least give it a try"

i actually agree with you there....there is no way we can convince eachother, but a healthy discussion is always something worth while, of course if there are idiots like you who come with hostility from the beginning than one can only feel like your living in North Korea :D

"You'd better, though I have a feeling you won't"

thats not true, i see some positive things that have comed out of communist regimes, i can even cite you some, like in Cuba, its awsome how the Castro regime got the majority of the population from being illiterate to having one of the highest literacy rates in Latin America, and how they have a free medical system....but what is this all worth? when you can't even study a career in Cuba, or when there are no medical supplies, not even penicillin or aspirin? get what i mean?

anyways, i dont really want to call you stupid or retarded anymore Srna, or to anyone else in here, i didnt come here for this, its supposed to be a healthy conversation please

thank you

[YSR]

How have you been "proven right"? Because revolutionary socialist states have failed? Big deal.

Some of us (myself included) think they're unnecessary anyway.

And you can read the rest of the forum, right? Well, read the intros to communism, Marxism, anarchism, etc. Then you'll understand our "idiologies".

[YSR]

Also, if you're using Animal Farm and 1984 as examples, I suggest you read Orwell's other great work: Homage to Catalonia. If that doesn't make you get it, nothing will.

[Ol' Dirty]

Wow. You're an asshole.

[Communism=Utopia]

Zingu, i can't tell you that iv read the whole thing, thats for sure lol

but i can tell you about what i infer from it, i mean after all, books are interpreted by people in many different ways, does the Bible, Quran, Torah ring a bell? lol

anyways, Karl Marx i have to say was a very intelligent man, and like i said inteded Das Kapital to be something good, something progressive, he even got ideas from Benjamin Franklin, but i think that what he tryed to do is look at capitalism, and pretty much criticize the bad things about it, and not take regard of the good aspects of it, so he created his own idea, but like anything in life, nothing is perfect, and the way i see it, and the way the world has proven it, is that capitalism is the only succesful economic system that actually works in real life, unlike Marx's ideas in Das Kapital........ listen the fact of the matter is that there is always going to be rich and poor people, it has been like this since the beginning of times, and it will keep on being like this, and if you try to make everyone equal it just won't work, who do you think we are? wood that you can carve and make it the same? we are humans, different from eachother, with different goals, and ways of thinking, and capitalism is the one who recognizes this better than other economic theories....

thats just my way of thinking, i would like to please hear from yours Zingu or Srna or ComTom

thanks

[Communism=Utopia]

YoungStupidRadical, lmao....

"How have you been "proven right"? Because revolutionary socialist states have failed? Big deal."

well what else do you want? jesus lol, thats one of the funniest things iv ever heard lol


So if i dont read Homage to Catalonia, and i dont get it nothing will....than i guess if you don't read Mein Kampf and you dont see that its correct your wrong? lmao

you make no sense, people read the Bible and feel like they see the truth about everything, they feel that their lifes have changed, they feel they have to live by it...

look i just cited Orwell's literacy work as examples of what im trying to say, and im sure there are literary works that bash my way of thinking....the fact is that a literary work becomes even better if what you say in it becomes real , or if it has a real world effect, why do you think Orwell's most famouse book is 1984? coincidance? right....

[YSR]

Oy vey. I'm not even a Marxist, and I'll throw the word at you: materialism. It's not about utopianism. That's why Marx wrote, because he wasn't a utopian.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by communism=utopia
well like Voltair once said, "I disagree completely with what you say, but I will defend 'till death your right to say so".

Not exactly. :lol:

The person to whom you refer -- François-Marie Arouet -- used the pen name Voltaire.

And the quote actually reads: "I do not agree with what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it."

However, he never said it.

Which was probably just as well because he didn't really believe it either. After some unhappy brushes with the French nobility, he ended up living close to the Swiss border...where he could quickly escape the unwelcome attentions of the authorities at the first whiff of trouble.

He was not willing "to die" for his own opinions...much less anyone else's.

A fairly sensible choice, all things considered. :D

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Zingu]

but i can tell you about what i infer from it, i mean after all, books are interpreted by people in many different ways, does the Bible, Quran, Torah ring a bell? lol

So economics can be "interpreted" in many different ways? :lol:

Should I build a totem pole to the "Surplus Capital" diety and start dancing around chanting economic equations?


but i think that what he tryed to do is look at capitalism, and pretty much criticize the bad things about it, and not take regard of the good aspects of it, so he created his own idea, but like anything in life, nothing is perfect,

Nah, he simply analyzed capitalism from an objective viewpoint and concluded it couldn't last, and saw that the only logical conclusion of a system replacing it was communism...hardly your "idiologie". Its called theory.


and the way i see it, and the way the world has proven it, is that capitalism is the only succesful economic system that actually works in real life,

Feudalism was a damn good functioning society that worked for hundreds of years. :D

But wait! 1789 their ass! I bet the sneering aristrocrat never saw it coming when he laughed at the petty burgher about his new "capitalism".


listen the fact of the matter is that there is always going to be rich and poor people, it has been like this since the beginning of times, and it will keep on being like this, and if you try to make everyone equal it just won't work, who do you think we are?

History proves you otherwise...grossly.



wood that you can carve and make it the same? we are humans, different from eachother, with different goals, and ways of thinking, and capitalism is the one who recognizes this better than other economic theories.

So, the hundreds of men, women and children crowded in factories of the 1800s to the dirty sweatshops today 24/7, doing a boring, monotonous, alienating job for the rest of their lives are recognized as individual human beings?

Think again.

This is fun!

[YSR]

Well played, Redstar.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 04:11 AM
anyways, we dont live in a "totalitarian" country, so we can all express our views, although this site works (to no surprise, lol, as a totalitarian governement) so i can express my views in only this forum...

Totalitarian? No we just don't need you're replies saying how you think were wrong on Communism in general on everywhere else on this board. Opposing Ideologies is the place where you can debate on such subject. And every Commie here who has wasted their time on Cappie boards has gotten restricted on those boards. So theres no need for your adolescent whining.


totalitarian/commusim, that is why i joined, i have been to countries like Cuba and China, and actually experienced first hand the situation in each country, and trust me guys im no "ignorant american" , ok, and i did not spend my times in resort vacations, i actually have lived in each country, in both the countryside and in the cities....

You've been to Cuba? Unless you're an imigrant, or a child of business people or politicians you have commited treason to your beloved country.


anyways, i just find some things funny when you argue with a Che/Communist/Socialist/Anti-American/Anti-Capitalist person,

Anti-American? I make no real decisions,the corporations have the monoply on political power, all anyone ever expected of me (parents excluded) was to join the millitary, and be over-worked and silent. By definition, I have no country.


first, when i cite something, you guys always say, "OHH ITS PROPAGANDA",hahahahhaha

Propaganda? Oh its so much more complex than that!
The list of reasons why Socialism hasn't been successful hitherto is miles long. And it doesn't mean it will never work. Number one on the list would definately be " every country that had a Communist lead revolution didn't have the material prequisite for socialism". Read up on it, information on it is on every communist website available including this one.


anyways, like i said, i respect what you guys say, and im not trying to convice anyone, and when i see something that is true, i will admit it, there are many wrong things with our American government, and things that we have done, but please give credit where it is due, and accept when something is wrong or right...

If you're really not trying to convince us, you wouldn't waste your time here.
And stop laughing at what you write, makes ya look like a mega-douche.

[KC]

but i can tell you about what i infer from it, i mean after all, books are interpreted by people in many different ways, does the Bible, Quran, Torah ring a bell? lol

You're comparing an empirical analysis to a bunch of metaphorical stories? It doesn't work that way; that's a horrible analogy.



anyways, Karl Marx i have to say was a very intelligent man, and like i said inteded Das Kapital to be something good, something progressive, he even got ideas from Benjamin Franklin, but i think that what he tryed to do is look at capitalism, and pretty much criticize the bad things about it, and not take regard of the good aspects of it

Actually he empirically analyzed it and came to the conclusions that he did. He didn't say capitalism was always bad; he knew it was better than what came before it, and worse than what will come after it. It really sounds like you didn't read it at all.


capitalism is the only succesful economic system that actually works in real life

You haven't read any of Marx's works at all. Capitalism isn't "successful". It works, and it will work for years from now, but it won't last forever (nor can it). In fact, it is very obvious that it is impossible for capitalism to last forever, and to make this assertion is climbing a mountain of evidence that destroys your outrageous claim.


unlike Marx's ideas in Das Kapital........

Do you even know what Marx's ideas in Das Kapital were? Can you provide some info for us showing that you've actually read the book? Because it sure has hell sounds like you either didn't read it, or didn't understand it at all. Let's hear some of your specific criticisms of certain parts of the book. Stop being so vague. If you want to claim that you're against his ideas in Kapital, then let's hear you explain what ideas you are against and why. Until then, I'm going to have to assume that you didn't read it (which it really sounds like you didn't).


listen the fact of the matter is that there is always going to be rich and poor people, it has been like this since the beginning of times,

Of course you would say this. You haven't read or understood any of Marx's theories! If you don't think that communism comes after capitalism, then what do you think does? Something has to; it's not going to last forever!


and it will keep on being like this, and if you try to make everyone equal it just won't work, who do you think we are? wood that you can carve and make it the same? we are humans, different from eachother, with different goals, and ways of thinking, and capitalism is the one who recognizes this better than other economic theories....

How is this even an argument? Individuality is opposed to social equality? Is this what you're saying? Then what are you doing supporting civil rights, womens' rights, etc...? After all, who do you think we are? We can't be seen as equal in the eyes of society! That's absurd! :rolleyes:

Now, if you're going to make the argument that we're naturally greedy and that greed is intrinsic in every human as human nature, then I offer you to prove this, and I would also like to warn you that you are again climing a mountain of evidence overwhelmingly not in your favour.



So if i dont read Homage to Catalonia, and i dont get it nothing will....than i guess if you don't read Mein Kampf and you dont see that its correct your wrong? lmao

you make no sense, people read the Bible and feel like they see the truth about everything, they feel that their lifes have changed, they feel they have to live by it...

What you're failing to realize is that Marx's work is scientific. It is based on the scientific study of society. We aren't talking about pseudo-truths such as religious claims, and that analogy doesn't hold at all. It is a fact that capitalist society is divided into two classes, and it is a fact that these two classes are diametrically opposed to one another, and it is a fact that this capitalist system will end with the domination of the proletariat over society and thus the abolishment of class society in general.

Have you read any of Marx's works? You are making arguments that were explained completely by Marx's writings, which was around 150 years ago!!! I suggest that if you want answers to your questions, you start there. And I suggest that if you are going to criticize Marx's work (such as your criticism of Kapital), I suggest reading it first and then stating exactly what you disagree with and why you disagree with it so we can continue to debate this issue further. If you don't do this then we can't debate it and you saying that you disagree with Marx's Kapital is meaningless ranting. So I demand that you do exactly this, so this debate can continue and perhaps you will learn a few things about Marxism and you will come away from this debate with more knowledge, regardless of what your political ideology is.

[Communism=Utopia]

"So economics can be "interpreted" in many different ways?

Should I build a totem pole to the "Surplus Capital" diety and start dancing around chanting economic equations?"

so you can't interpret economics? i dont get you Zingu...have you looked at the meaning of "interpret" in the dictionary lately? guess not, well if you would build that totem pole you would be deserting the pole you already have for "Communism Utopia".. :)


"Nah, he simply analyzed capitalism from an objective viewpoint and concluded it couldn't last, and saw that the only logical conclusion of a system replacing it was communism...hardly your "idiologie". Its called theory."

hahahaha, yeah i know he was pretty objective about it, you dont have to remind me, and yeah it couldnt last long, boy was he right!!! hahahaha, how long has it been now? ahh yes..... lol

and feudalism, hummm, damn, yeah, wait, it sounds like, COMMUNISM!! yay!!

feudalism=i own the land, you can work on it, but its mine and you pay me, and we will "PROTECT" you lmao,= COMMUNISM!, yeah wow, it lasted, didnt the monarchies last too?? im sure you love a monarchial society, well that = communism society too , what the heck....


"History proves you otherwise...grossly"

really, hahahhaa, well i think cavemans are under what it's called "pre-history" my friend....if not, please tell me i would like to know how im grossly misproven :lol:


"So, the hundreds of men, women and children crowded in factories of the 1800s to the dirty sweatshops today 24/7, doing a boring, monotonous, alienating job for the rest of their lives are recognized as individual human beings?"

how is that any different than in all communist regimes that have existed? at least that era ended in Britain and the US, i mean how is that more alienating than not having any voice in government? than not sharing your views out loud? than being persecuted for your beliefs? how is this more alienating than being opressed ?

first of all, i find it funny how you cite the beginning (which always has a rough start), but anyways, were these people obligated by a human force to do such work? or was it job demands, and forces out of their control? and industry has always been the major driving force of every communist system , does USSR ring a bell? lol, the fact is that you want everything to be bed of roses, and dude, please step into reality, step into the real world, there is always going to be the inequality factor between man, its just a fact of life, accept it, and if you try to alter it , you get opprisiveness, and make things worst....i want you to tell me what would of happen if it wasn't for the industrial revolution? how would the world look today? and please dont tell me a lot better, because if you do, turn off your computer, and trash it, and pretty much all of your material posetions.....

[Entrails Konfetti]

Hey Communism=utopia, since you claim you have read Das Kapital what are use-value, value,relative surplus value, absolute surplus value, and labour-power?
Whats this?:
C'=(c+v)+s

[KC]

hahahaha, yeah i know he was pretty objective about it, you dont have to remind me, and yeah it couldnt last long, boy was he right!!! hahahaha, how long has it been now? ahh yes..... lol


Actually it's only been about 300 years. Which is pretty short, compared to other historical stages in human development (didn't feudalism last for 1000 years?).



and feudalism, hummm, damn, yeah, wait, it sounds like, COMMUNISM!! yay!!


How the hell does feudalism resemble communism in any way? I'd love to hear this one.



feudalism=i own the land, you can work on it, but its mine and you pay me, and we will "PROTECT" you lmao,= COMMUNISM!, yeah wow, it lasted, didnt the monarchies last too?? im sure you love a monarchial society, well that = communism society too , what the heck....

Does this even mean anything?



how is that any different than in all communist regimes that have existed?

What you fail to realize is that we're not talking about Marxist-Leninist socialist states, we are talking about communist society. The two are significantly different. What you need to stop doing is arguing against these deformed workers states, and start arguing against communist society, as that is what we are talking about!!! Of course, I'm not going to go through that last paragraph, as it's irrelevant to the topic for reasons I've stated earlier in this paragraph.

[Zingu]

You just proved your a ignorant dumbwit, just like I said in the beginning. Not only is your spelling utterly convoluted, but despite us screaming in you ears that the USSR wasen't communism (Its completely absurd to call China or USSR Communist, it would turn Marxist theory upside down if it was), you continue to idiotically assume it to be a prime example of Marxist thought, which have no understanding of:

You do not know anything of Historical Materialism:


and feudalism, hummm, damn, yeah, wait, it sounds like, COMMUNISM!! yay!!



feudalism=i own the land, you can work on it, but its mine and you pay me, and we will "PROTECT" you lmao,= COMMUNISM!, yeah wow, it lasted, didnt the monarchies last too?? im sure you love a monarchial society, well that = communism society too , what the heck....


Nothing of Marxist Economic Theory:


so you can't interpret economics? i dont get you Zingu...have you looked at the meaning of "interpret" in the dictionary lately? guess not, well if you would build that totem pole you would be deserting the pole you already have for "Communism Utopia"..

Nothing of what communism actually is:



how is that any different than in all communist regimes that have existed?


first of all, i find it funny how you cite the beginning (which always has a rough start), but anyways, were these people obligated by a human force to do such work? or was it job demands, and forces out of their control? and industry has always been the major driving force of every communist system , does USSR ring a bell?



It obvious you have never read a single line of Das Kapital, (oh wait, I'm wrong, you know the title :rolleyes: ) Its not a moral or ideological arguement, its theory, and you responded to that was some unintelligable drivel:


hahahaha, yeah i know he was pretty objective about it, you dont have to remind me, and yeah it couldnt last long, boy was he right!!! hahahaha, how long has it been now? ahh yes..... lol

Not only are you hopelessly embarassing yourself to every person reading this topic, you're completely oblivious to it. Stop claiming that you read something you haven't.

Try reading Lazar's posts closely, and you might learn something.

[encephalon]

wow.. this guy surprises me not only with his lack of knowledge concerning the fundamental ideas of leftism, but his lack of understanding of economics, politics and sociology all together.

Feudalism lasted for almost a thousand years. Capitalism's been around for nearly 500. The two also co-existed for a time.

Congrats, you've won the idiot poster of the month award.

If you're going to attack something, it's best you know what the fuck you're talking about. Otherwise, you come off as.. an idiot!

[encephalon]

I smell a troll.

[anomaly]

May I suggest, Communism=Utopia, that you read a little bit on this site, at least, before further embarrassing yourself? I don't know whether to laugh or cry when reading the collective garbage you submit as a post!

Your main flaws, however, are that you: a) believe that communism is utopian, and b) believe that communism is Marxism-Leninism.

Perhaps you'll need to actually read some Marx to see it, but Marxism is scientific. There is nothing 'utopian' about it whatsoever. And Marxism-Leninism is not communism, but rather it is a system designed to produce modern capitalist states from primitive feudal ones. This happened in Russia and China, it is happening in Vietnam, and it will happen in Cuba, North Korea, and Venezuela.

[Communism=Utopia]

Lazar, im not going to reply to every single thing you said, because im frankly tired...think w/e you think...

but i will tell you to prove to you that i have read (like i said not all) some of Das Kapital, and i will tell you what i think of it, why i believe what i believe etc..

first of all , Marx did nothing but an abstract investigation, understand that the capitalist society Marx studied is not the one present and wasn't even the one back then....what he studied was an ideal society which he hypothesized about which could of never had happened in history as a fact.....some of his hypothesis extend to the modern world, but not even now anywhere in the world would Marx's hypothesies be proven dude, and you know why?? because they are ABSTRACT!!! he doesnt even cover the whole economic fact, not even of capitalism...pretty much Das Kapital is like an essay on "laws" created by Marx on Capitalism....and the only way he could have explained this laws are by deductive reasoning, he didnt study crap, he just made things fundamental, and reduced the complex into short...Marx was a practical man, a revolutionary thats why you guys like him, but the fact of the matter is he did abstract investigations and didnt know jack about the actual life, about the real world...and his main arguement is pretty much that history has supposedly shown that its all a constant struggle between classes, the "class wars", or w/e , yeah right, this would be true if there has been any class wars? in fact many classes dont even show any antagonistic interest he talks about, and they'r pretty much not even aware of it.......althogh back in his time yeah sure, there were defenitaly major differences in classes, but now its a different time....


but anyways, the "real world", planet earth, that is why communism is a failure, that is why capitalism rules the economic system of the best countries of the world....tell me a succes story that has commed out of Das Kapital? please im eager to know? humm let me see? Central America? ummm Costa Rica (nope Capitalism), South America? Chile (nope Capitalism), Africa? South Africa (nope Capitalism)Asia? Japan (nope Capitalism), Europe? UK (nope Capitalism)...see the pattern here? why are the rest not as good as them? well , Karl Marx could be a very good reason and explenation........

[Communism=Utopia]

El KABLAMO, i could just research those things online, sorry i dont live in North Korea, dumb ass

[KC]

Lazar, im not going to reply to every single thing you said, because im frankly tired...think w/e you think...

I think that you won't because you don't have a sufficient response to any of my claims. Hell, the rest of this post is even vague!



first of all , Marx did nothing but an abstract investigation, understand that the capitalist society Marx studied is not the one present and wasn't even the one back then....what he studied was an ideal society which he hypothesized about which could of never had happened in history as a fact.....some of his hypothesis extend to the modern world

What the hell are you talking about? Capitalism is the socio-economic system where social relations are based on commodities for exchange, in particular private ownership of the means of production and on the exploitation of wage labour. Obviously, this is in existence and has been in existence since the end of feudal society. This isn't even questionable!!! It's completely obvious.


but not even now anywhere in the world would Marx's hypothesies be proven dude, and you know why?? because they are ABSTRACT!!!

I suggest that you inform me of what you think Marx was wrong on. Instead of speaking of Marx's work as a whole, reduce it to specifics that you disagree with, so we can continue this discussion (as I have previously stated repeatedly). If you think Marx is wrong, let's hear where and why, or let's just not have this debate because your claims aren't debatable if you don't specifically state what you disagree with.


the fact of the matter is he did abstract investigations and didnt know jack about the actual life, about the real world...

Again with the abstractions! This isn't debatable because it isn't a point supported by anything. If I resorted to your style of debate, all I would have to say is "I disagree."


nd his main arguement is pretty much that history has supposedly shown that its all a constant struggle between classes, the "class wars", or w/e , yeah right, this would be true if there has been any class wars? in fact many classes dont even show any antagonistic interest he talks about, and they'r pretty much not even aware of it.......althogh back in his time yeah sure, there were defenitaly major differences in classes, but now its a different time....

Are you an idiot? This clearly shows that you have no grasp of what class really is. Society is defined by class struggle. Presently, between the struggle of bourgeoisie and proletariat. The bourgeoisie is those that own the means of production, while the proletariat are those that don't and are forced to sell their labour-power to survive. It is completely obvious that the interests of these two classes are diametrically opposed. The bourgeois quest for profit is in direct conflict with the proletarian quest for better pay, shorter work days, etc... This is common sense. So it is obvious that these two classes show the "antagonistic interest he talks about," and I'm pretty sure that they are aware that their demands are against those of business owners. These two classes are still defined the same way, and just because the living conditions of the proletariat in contemporary society are high doesn't mean that the antagonisms still don't exist. In fact, it means that these antagonisms exist much more strongly elsewhere, in less developed countries. Of course, as capitalist society develops, it becomes harder for the capitalist to make a profit, and because of this we will see workers' rights slip away.



but anyways, the "real world", planet earth, that is why communism is a failure, that is why capitalism rules the economic system of the best countries of the world....tell me a succes story that has commed out of Das Kapital? please im eager to know? humm let me see? Central America? ummm Costa Rica (nope Capitalism), South America? Chile (nope Capitalism), Africa? South Africa (nope Capitalism)Asia? Japan (nope Capitalism), Europe? UK (nope Capitalism)...see the pattern here? why are the rest not as good as them? well , Karl Marx could be a very good reason and explenation........

Have we not already gone over this repeatedly? Marx theorized that these class antagonisms will result in revolution when the productive forces are increased to an extent where the problem of obtaining a profit becomes significant enough for the bourgeoisie to strip workers of their rights. This obviously hasn't happened yet, and therefore your argument is completely invalid, as usual.

[Communism=Utopia]

lets do this, since you are the one with the "knowledge" here, and can talk in "specific" terms , why dont you tell me, whats wrong with capitalism, what you dont agree about it, i mean pretty much why you believe that Marx is right.....

anyways peace out i gotta go sleep, i have a life to wake up to to tomorrow, thankfully i live in a country i which i can do whatever the fuck i want (in theory at least lol)

[Entrails Konfetti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 07:12 AM
El KABLAMO, i could just research those things online, sorry i dont live in North Korea, dumb ass
Ofcourse you would have to research them on-line, because you haven't read the book.

And I'd be able to figure out if you did research them on-line, because of you're delay to my post.
Don't underestimate me.
Asshole.

Explain directly how Marx's analysis on Capitalism is clearly abstract reasoning, is clearly ethereal. Back up your evidence.

As for all those countries you site, did you not read where I said one of the reasons socialism hasn't been successful hitherto is because the material prerequisties necessary?


the "class wars", or w/e , yeah right, this would be true if there has been any class wars? in fact many classes dont even show any antagonistic interest he talks about, and they'r pretty much not even aware of it.......althogh back in his time yeah sure, there were defenitaly major differences in classes, but now its a different time....
German Peasant War, Spartacus in Rome, All the peasant uprisinings in China during the times of Dynasties, Luddites, Sans Cullotes, Roundheads, Jacobins,Levellers...ect.
Why were there theatres and free bread in Ancient Rome?
READ A FUCKING BOOK!

[KC]

lets do this, since you are the one with the "knowledge" here, and can talk in "specific" terms , why dont you tell me, whats wrong with capitalism, what you dont agree about it, i mean pretty much why you believe that Marx is right.....

Read Kapital. That is why. Better yet, if you don't feel like reading Kapital, I'd suggest reading this (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=45625) book. It basically sums up Kapital in simpler terms that you might actually be able to understand.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 07:38 AM
lets do this, since you are the one with the "knowledge" here, and can talk in "specific" terms , why dont you tell me, whats wrong with capitalism, what you dont agree about it, i mean pretty much why you believe that Marx is right.....

Search this whole website, dipshit!

[Communism=Utopia]

guys, really i mean its all around us? are you guys blind? reading a book is nothing , specially if its a book that is flawless

i mean the capitalist countries are by far the most productive and wealthiest,they enjoy the best health and longest life expectancy, even the poorest people in capitalist societies enjoy a standard of living much higher than most other in the world.

Individual rights flourish in capitalist economies as well, name me a communist society that cherishes individual rights. The Soviet Union? Communist China? North Korea? Cuba? hardly, the communist ideal of equality and deomcracy and prosperity gave its adherents neither equality nor democracy nor prosperity, Communism is a discredited social system and was one of the worst mistakes in human history.

and you guys might say that the communist regimes didnt work because of corrupt leaders, you say that the USSR wasn't communist or w/e ....

listen, communist leaders again and again have been corrupt, selfish, and have mistreated their people, so there is zero reason to think any future communist society would be any different, we must base our views of how things are based on historical experience, not on some theory or ideal. Communist ideology on the ground does not work, it has always led to a hell on earth, Capitalist society recognizes that human nature always tends toward self-oriented behvior, but it channels that energy in a constructive direction, the fact is that Communist ideology misunderstands how people operate....

this all leads me to my second point, history also shows that you cannot make all people the same, like i said before, no society in the long sweep of human history has ever had all people even close to being the same, people differ naturally, and it is impossible to snuff that out, you cannot snuff out diversity no matter how repressive the government is, it's utopian to think otherwise.......

in conclusion, Communism cannot work well, society is made up of individuals and individuals are best served by serving themsleves, it was not by mere freaking chance of "poor" leaders, in all of previous attempts at communism that it has failed, the system was doomed to fail........

Captalism thrives on the rights and achievements of individuals, like You, I, He/She are important, it gives the birth right to all people to choose how they wish to live, captalism allows you to work and propser under your own achievements and thus control your own life....

unlike it, communism does not thrive under any circumstances, it does not cherish rights of the individual, the individual is not important and thus there is no system of individual freedom and civil liberties, you must work for the betterment of nameless others and your individual success is not important. The individual is controlled by a mindless entity called "we", (the state)

and that my friends pretty much sums it up, i choose to be like this because it is a matter of ethics, of human morals, as an individual, and also as someone who wants to prosper, i dont want to be part of something, i want to be myself.....that is the human accomplishment, and capitalism suits this the best....

thank you

[KC]

i mean the capitalist countries are by far the most productive and wealthiest,they enjoy the best health and longest life expectancy, even the poorest people in capitalist societies enjoy a standard of living much higher than most other in the world.

The extreme majority of the world is capitalist. Capitalism improves lives when compared to feudal living conditions, but we agree with that.



Individual rights flourish in capitalist economies as well, name me a communist society that cherishes individual rights. The Soviet Union? Communist China? North Korea? Cuba? hardly, the communist ideal of equality and deomcracy and prosperity gave its adherents neither equality nor democracy nor prosperity, Communism is a discredited social system and was one of the worst mistakes in human history.

and you guys might say that the communist regimes didnt work because of corrupt leaders, you say that the USSR wasn't communist or w/e ....

These countries aren't communist. Communism is a classless, stateless society.



listen, communist leaders again and again have been corrupt, selfish, and have mistreated their people, so there is zero reason to think any future communist society would be any different, we must base our views of how things are based on historical experience, not on some theory or ideal. Communist ideology on the ground does not work, it has always led to a hell on earth

That's Marxism-Leninism; if you want to be opposed to Marxism-Leninism, then fine, I'm not supporting it. However, you aren't even arguing against Marxism.


Capitalist society recognizes that human nature always tends toward self-oriented behvior

Prove it. Prove that this mystical form of "human nature" exists. Let's see your evidence.


the fact is that Communist ideology misunderstands how people operate....

The fact is that you misunderstand how people operate.



this all leads me to my second point, history also shows that you cannot make all people the same, like i said before, no society in the long sweep of human history has ever had all people even close to being the same

Nobody's trying to make everyone the same. We're trying to make people socially equal. And what's wrong with that? I'm sure you aren't against equality, or you would probably be banned for being a nazi.


n all of previous attempts at communism that it has failed, the system was doomed to fail........

Again, read my last post.



unlike it, communism does not thrive under any circumstances, it does not cherish rights of the individual, the individual is not important and thus there is no system of individual freedom and civil liberties, you must work for the betterment of nameless others and your individual success is not important. The individual is controlled by a mindless entity called "we", (the state)

:lol: Communism is stateless. What you more fail to recognize is that man is a social being. When you are working to benefit society, that includes benefiting yourself as you are part of society. You have no clue about what communism is; stop saying all these deformed workers' states are communists; they aren't anywhere near so.

You fail to address any points. You fail to read posts. You fail to reply to posts. You fail to learn. You fail to listen. You aren't debating. If you want to debate, then start doing so, otherwise why the hell are you here? I'd suggest by addressing some of the points brought up in the numerous replies to your crap.

[leftist resistance]

Individual rights flourish in capitalist economies as well, name me a communist society that cherishes individual rights. The Soviet Union? Communist China? North Korea? Cuba? hardly, the communist ideal of equality and deomcracy and prosperity gave its adherents neither equality nor democracy nor prosperity, Communism is a discredited social system and was one of the worst mistakes in human history.


From page 1,many posters have dismissed this argument of yours.This obviously shows the non-"ignorant American" side of you (tsktsk) which you claim in your first post.i believe we shouldn't attack people personally in a debate,but your case is an exception due to your poor ability to think.
(whispers "dumb dumb")


i mean the capitalist countries are by far the most productive and wealthiest,they enjoy the best health and longest life expectancy, even the poorest people in capitalist societies enjoy a standard of living much higher than most other in the world.

bwahhaha :lol: most other?
well,let's see..i'll give you an example.Indonesia is capitalist,but majority of the people are living in bad conditions.Brunei is a monarchy but the people there are better off than indonesians.Most countries in Africa are capitalist too.
unless of course,your definition of capitalist countries are limited to North America and Europe.which again proves how "non-ignorant" you are (more tsktsktsk)


Captalism thrives on the rights and achievements of individuals, like You, I, He/She are important, it gives the birth right to all people to choose how they wish to live, captalism allows you to work and propser under your own achievements and thus control your own life....


Really?i live in a thriving capitalist country which doesn't have much freedom of expression.it ranked worst than somalia in a global survey.in fact,even George Soros commented that my country is not an open one.
You don't prosper under your own achievements.You prosper by exploiting or sucking up to people.I've known people who work with honesty and dedication but end up getting laid off later.what happen after they get fired?how they find food all that is not of concern to the capitalists.
but then again,your definition of capitalist countries is probably on a very limited scale.

Ignorance is stupidity.
stpidity..baaaaaaaadddd

Edited to put in more colourful expressions

[red team]

i mean the capitalist countries are by far the most productive and wealthiest,they enjoy the best health and longest life expectancy, even the poorest people in capitalist societies enjoy a standard of living much higher than most other in the world.


False, the purchasing power of the average worker in the industrialized Capitalist country have been steadily declining for years. A typical factory worker use to be able to support a family of four quite comfortably with his single wage. This is no longer true as the industrial heartland of the North American continent has been hollowed out through offshoring and asset stripping. Low wage service jobs are not able to supply the necessary amount of purchasing power to cover basic expenses. As a result consumer debt has exploded. Credit card debt alone is $735 billion in the U.S.

source: http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/jan2004/debt-j15.shtml

Also wealth is relative as it will be with any system that is based on debt and scarcity.
Money is a form of debt. It represents a negotiated debt to be paid back for an item of exchange.
In the end money is not quantifiable to anything physical, but is simply a medium of exchange subjected to human emotional abstractions like value or worth. Money itself is a game of confidence as its value as a medium of exchange is only as functional as the confidence in its worthiness in exchange for material goods, otherwise money wouldn't be worth the paper it is printed on or the byte it is stored in.

the scarcer an item is the more valuable it is in terms of money needed to be exchanged (debt the buyer agrees to repay) for it, regardless of whether or not said item could be made more abundant so fun economic games like artificial shortages and hoarding can be played by those owning material wealth.


Individual rights flourish in capitalist economies as well, name me a communist society that cherishes individual rights. The Soviet Union? Communist China? North Korea? Cuba? hardly, the communist ideal of equality and deomcracy and prosperity gave its adherents neither equality nor democracy nor prosperity, Communism is a discredited social system and was one of the worst mistakes in human history.


Prosperity is a subjective and relative term. When you prattle on about prosperity you have to specify what this is relative to for both the persons involved in this comparison and the time period, otherwise "prosperity" is a meaningless and subjective word.

Democracy is only as effective as your degree of political influence, otherwise its as irrelevant as me throwing away junk mail.

There's different types of individual rights. Ideally all individual rights will be honored, but we all this is not true in either the Capitalist or Socialist systems. Right to employment for example is absent in the Capitalist system. Furthermore, total individual rights is impossible as there always rights that if granted will interfere or potentially interfere with another person's individual rights. Individual pragmatism will always come into conflict with individual freedom. Furthermore, for a society with limited resources the effectiveness of your individual rights depends on your individual wealth.


and you guys might say that the communist regimes didnt work because of corrupt leaders, you say that the USSR wasn't communist or w/e ....


A person or group of people can only be as corrupt as the economic and political system allows them to be. Technical flaws in an economic system simply presents loopholes to be exploited by anybody willing to exploit them. An economic system which uses money as a medium of exchange which can be negotiated and hoarded and cannot be physically quantified will just present a big wide-open door for corruption because it's a practical option.


listen, communist leaders again and again have been corrupt, selfish, and have mistreated their people, so there is zero reason to think any future communist society would be any different, we must base our views of how things are based on historical experience, not on some theory or ideal. Communist ideology on the ground does not work, it has always led to a hell on earth, Capitalist society recognizes that human nature always tends toward self-oriented behvior, but it channels that energy in a constructive direction, the fact is that Communist ideology misunderstands how people operate....


The natural inclination or tendency of any person to exhibit selfish and corrupt behavior is heavily influenced by the culture in which a person is immersed in which in turn is influenced by the way wealth is acquired or not acquired in a society. Right now gambling, game shows, lotteries and "entertainment" are very popular because... Speculative gambling and swindling is the way to becoming a billionaire even for those who are billionaires many times over.


this all leads me to my second point, history also shows that you cannot make all people the same, like i said before, no society in the long sweep of human history has ever had all people even close to being the same, people differ naturally, and it is impossible to snuff that out, you cannot snuff out diversity no matter how repressive the government is, it's utopian to think otherwise.......


True, but there are a general range of behavior that society deems as acceptable and this could change over time. Cannibalism is no longer acceptable. Slavery is no longer acceptable. In prehistoric conditions cannibalism was an acceptable ritual for some tribes. Slavery was acceptable even in America until it was abolished. Certain behaviors and social norms which are viewed as acceptable would be viewed as repugnant given the society.


in conclusion, Communism cannot work well, society is made up of individuals and individuals are best served by serving themsleves, it was not by mere freaking chance of "poor" leaders, in all of previous attempts at communism that it has failed, the system was doomed to fail........


Society serves you as much or as little as you serve yourself. Self sufficiency is an illusion created from individual wealth which in turn is possible from the fact that money can be hoarded.

History has not ended and neither have social and technical progress. Capitalism is doomed to fail due to structural flaws. It's already failing in slow motion, most people just don't know it yet.


Captalism thrives on the rights and achievements of individuals, like You, I, He/She are important, it gives the birth right to all people to choose how they wish to live, captalism allows you to work and propser under your own achievements and thus control your own life....


Rights of individuals, yes. But, achievements of individuals are over-emphasized. Achievements of individuals are in the end dependent upon social support no matter how much egotistical fools wish to deny that fact.

How I choose to live becomes less important depending upon the material situation I find myself in. If find myself to be poor my prime objective would be material security not life style. The probability of me securing wealth and means of generating wealth in turn depends upon my rights as an individual in obtaining work and the obligation of someone or some institution with more resources than any given single individual in providing me with work, otherwise you would need to be someone who has vast amounts of wealth in the first place so you won't need to generate wealth for yourself. But because wealth is relative in a commodity system in which labour itself is a commodity you'll be one of the fortunate few who won't need to work.


unlike it, communism does not thrive under any circumstances, it does not cherish rights of the individual, the individual is not important and thus there is no system of individual freedom and civil liberties, you must work for the betterment of nameless others and your individual success is not important. The individual is controlled by a mindless entity called "we", (the state)


Individual rights are important. Under Capitalism, certain individual rights are unimportant. In Capitalism "individual" success is less important than individual hoarding. Example, Albert Einstein was a scientific success which I have much respect for. But what made him less successful in terms of what this economic system value as "success" is that he didn't hoard.


and that my friends pretty much sums it up, i choose to be like this because it is a matter of ethics, of human morals, as an individual, and also as someone who wants to prosper, i dont want to be part of something, i want to be myself.....that is the human accomplishment, and capitalism suits this the best....


In a system of scarcity in which debt is used for valuing wealth, prosperity is measured relative to inequality. Valuing the individual is important, but excessive individualism is simply anti-social egotism. Human accomplishment is the hybrid of individual achievement and social support and always will be and Capitalism suits this the worse....


Thank You

[somebodywhowantedtoleaveandnotcomeback]

:lol: :lol: :lol: Hahahahahaha seriously dude... get a life. Your posts are so easy to refute that I will not even begin doing it. You're not even worth anymore of my energy. Goodbye :lol:

[Communism=Utopia]

Srna i think that you can't even even try to talk about them even if you tryed....

anyways, im just going to reply to Lazar...


"These countries aren't communist. Communism is a classless, stateless society"

why?why do you and people here keep saying that the ex Soviet Union was not communist? that Korea , that Cuba, etc.. are not communist? because they are not a classless society? when are you going to understand that a classless fucking society will never fucking happend!! get it through your damn MIND!!! these countries are experimentations, and the fact of the matter is that 1 strong leader will always be what that means, and turn himslef into a "king" (Castro, Kim, Stalin, Brezhnev,etc.)........HELLO!!! its called the communist party of Cuba, of North Korea, it was called the communist party of USSR, umm you know?? it was not like China right now, which its called the Communist Party of China but we all know that having McDonald's even freaking Audi dealers and Starbuck's is def. not communism hehehehe.....because these are all failures you try to hide from the fact that communism sucks? listen get over it, the battle of influence is over, we won, thats it.....

"Prove it. Prove that this mystical form of "human nature" exists. Let's see your evidence."

so you think that humans naturally think in "group" or something? you don't believe that its human nature to want things your way? hahahha ohh please , give me a break, of course under communism you can't think that way, hence why you can't be an entrepreneur for example....


"The fact is that you misunderstand how people operate."

so my way of thinking misunderstand how people operate? tell me how you understand them, and how communism has shown anywhere in history how they operate, iv said it at least 50 times in this forum, please anyone tell me a communism success story, and i will gladly accept it, until than keep dreaming


"Nobody's trying to make everyone the same. We're trying to make people socially equal. And what's wrong with that? I'm sure you aren't against equality, or you would probably be banned for being a nazi."

listen you seem to misunderstand me, Das Kapital, communism, it looks great, it looks awsome, SHIT i wish COMMUNISM happened for god's sake!!! (NOT REALLY LOL) but dude, it just doesn't work bro, you will never get people to be socially equal , thats the fact of life, people are people, we dont want as humans to be socially equal as a matter of fact......listen i prefer the self choice method, instead of someone telling me how to live my life...and im sure the majority of humans prefer this way, hence why communism hasn't worked, because in order for it to work, you have to repress people , and do things against their will.....


"Communism is stateless. What you more fail to recognize is that man is a social being. When you are working to benefit society, that includes benefiting yourself as you are part of society."

you don't understand, you have it mixed up, see thats why communism and you fail, and why it hasnt worked, and why it will never happen, how can you benefit society first? and expect to benefit yourself later? hahahaha ohh please......
in contrast, you help yourself first, you benefit yourself first, and you at the same time not later, benefit society....


anyways, like i said, get over it, communism will never happen, you canno't get people working together like little ants, jolly all happy, ohh we are working so cool and we are helping society and each other HIHIHIHI...yeah right, never gonna happen, thats the end of the story....

[More Fire for the People]

Classless societies do not happen? Tell that to the African tribes or the Native Americans.

[Chicken of Bristol]

why do you and people here keep saying that the ex Soviet Union was not communist?

Because they WEREN'T.


when are you going to understand that a classless fucking society will never fucking happend!! get it through your damn MIND!!!

OMGZORZ you liek just fuxing convinced me!!!!1111 :rolleyes:


so you think that humans naturally think in "group" or something? you don't believe that its human nature to want things your way? hahahha ohh please , give me a break, of course under communism you can't think that way, hence why you can't be an entrepreneur for example....


You have proven nothing with this statement on "human nature".


we dont want as humans to be socially equal as a matter of fact

Yeah. Don't you just HATE social equality? :rolleyes:

Learn to use the quote button troll.

[Communism=Utopia]

the african tribes and native americans, lmao jesus

anyway, chicken how is it that you quote? i dont see it in the bottom, i see something here in the top that says quote, humm lets see what it does..

[/QUOTE]Because they WEREN'T.


alright i think i got it?, anyway, so tell me how they weren't? i already told you how they were communist but the aspect of the social equality didn't happen, because it doesnt happen even if you tried, and stateless, because that is a flawd theory, what are you guys anarchist? lol, i mean, how can an economy be stable without state infrastructure? do you realize what you speak of?

OMGZORZ you liek just fuxing convinced me!!!!1111


hahaha thanks for the joke, listen im not trying to convicne anyone although we act that way viceversa, but anyway like i said if i see something that is correct i accept it, i mean i accept that socialism is important for example, socialism is a great idea, just not to the extent that most view it, for example here in america we have a socialist aspect to our economic government relations, i mean its obvious that pure pure capitalism like communism doesn't work in the real world, so a capitalism system with some limited control from government is what we have here in america....

You have proven nothing with this statement on "human nature".


i have proven nothing? dude either you are oblivious to what i just said, or your a knucklehead who doesnt want to accept what i said....i said it clearly its human nature to think only for yourself, to be greedy, to be HUMAN!! or are you telling me that you and all commies think like Mother Theresa? lmao

Yeah. Don't you just HATE social equality? [QUOTE]

not really, i wish all people had a house and a steady job, and food to eat, but at least here in America in a capitalist society, even though many homeless people are that way because of turbulant times in their lifetime, i dont have a general sense of pity, because many choose to be that way, in a society like ours here in America, immigrants come and flourish, so why if someone born here with free education until the university becomes a homeless?? listen you choose your path, period....

[Communism=Utopia]

[/QUOTE]lmao, i made a mess out of it, hahha



[QUOTE]dfsdafsdafdsaf

[Entrails Konfetti]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 07:08 PM
anyways, im just going to reply to Lazar...
Ofcourse you're only going to reply to one person, too bad all Lazar has to do is repeat the same points because thats all you seem to do. Gee, Redteam has got you pinned pretty well, how are you going to get out of that?


these countries are experimentations, and the fact of the matter is that 1 strong leader will always be what that means, and turn himslef into a "king" (Castro, Kim, Stalin, Brezhnev,etc.)........HELLO!!! its called the communist party of Cuba, of North Korea, it was called the communist party of USSR, umm you know??...
So if the rulers turn themselves into Kings, by your own logic the Americanm Bourgoeis Revolution was totally pointless.

The Revolutions started in Russia, the Bolsheviks knew the revolutions needed to spread to the West so there could be material prequisites necessary for Socialism.
But they didn't spread because all western countries had workers organizations embedded into the state, because Capitalism was older to these countries, and there workers had been struggling against it longer, so the state knew how to deal with it more, and all the Social-Democrats were too cowardly to act--they thought they could reform everything, there was no room to move.

So because the Revolutions didn't move, the USSR degenerated due to material conditions, and every Communist Party after Lenin's death was a pawn to the USSR. Castro, Guevara, Tito, and the Sandinistas are good examples of pawns.

About Castro, you see the whole theory behind the Cuban Revolution was for self-determination, it didn't have a Socialist character until they were forced to ally with the USSR.

Now that the USSR is gone, and material conditions are more advanced we have the ability to have a truly Communist Revolution.


listen get over it, the battle of influence is over, we won, thats it.....
History is over? Thats what the Monarchy thought.


so you think that humans naturally think in "group" or something? you don't believe that its human nature to want things your way
So humans don't want their species to thrive, and continue to exist?
So our feelings of concern, compassion, and sympathy towards those who are less better off than us is totally irrational?
We understand individual rights, hence its non of our business if someone is a homosexual, or has an abortion, and real Communists welcome questioning, deal with dissent through discussion.

Under Capitalism, your individually is confined to what property you own and the limits to your wealth, and state power. Donald Trump, George Bush, are individuals, where those who are ordered around by them are cogs to their machines, our character of individually is lost.


hence why you can't be an entrepreneur for example....
Its exploits others, its treads on the rights of everyone else, it violates peace in civil society, and you don't come to a civil society by being passive. Those who oppress us must be suppressed. You should understand that logic, thats what the American Revolution did--it suppressed the English Royalty.


please anyone tell me a communism success story, and i will gladly accept it, until than keep dreaming
Until we break we our chains, there will never be a Communist success story.
You don't want us to break our chains, you said it yourself. You afriad of losing your inheritence, your rule, your control.


listen i prefer the self choice method, instead of someone telling me how to live my life...and im sure the majority of humans prefer this way, hence why communism hasn't worked, because in order for it to work, you have to repress people , and do things against their will.....
As do we want the self-choice model, working whenever we want, and enjoying the intristic activities whenever we wish, and having control over the work we wish to do, and directly determining what goes on in society. Thats what Communism is all about.


yeah right, never gonna happen, thats the end of the story....
It doesn't happen for you, you got to make it happen.

[greymatter]

There is a button just to the right of "Add Reply" that allows you to miraculously preview your post before you add it to the thread. Please use this button if you are not sure that your post will turn out.

[somebodywhowantedtoleaveandnotcomeback]

There's also a "how NOT to be a 12-year old who pretends to be mature to cover up his frustrations but fails embarrasingly" button at the top left corner. How about you press that one.

[Orange Juche]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 12:11 AM
democracy/capitalism vs. totalitarian/commusim
That is the point at which I stopped taking your post seriously. Your little "democracy" is a bourgeoisie "democracy." It represents the men behind the curtain, the corporate financers and under-the-table money pushers. If you look at history, every government in a hierarchical society has represented the interests of the ruling classes above all things. This little "democracy" we have in the United States is an illusion. To keep us under control and make us think that who we vote for or what we make a say about matters to the government. It is all bullshit.

And not all Marxist and Socialist philosophy falls along the lines of what you probably consider to be "totalitarian."

Educate yourself, because the public school system has obviously failed (surprise) at teaching any level of truth about Marxism/Socialism ect.

[Communism=Utopia]

"Until we break we our chains, there will never be a Communist success story.
You don't want us to break our chains, you said it yourself. You afriad of losing your inheritence, your rule, your control.It doesn't happen for you, you got to make it happen".........


i find this very interesting from Kablamo, listen im just going to sum it up for you, if you believe that it is such a great system why hasn't it worked yet? why is it that when i ask you to give me a success story you fail to reply, and all you say is "because it hasn't been done", you guys live in a theory world, be rational, if countries have tried it and failed miserably and the only succesful countries in the world are capitalist, well that ought to tell you something, i mean its something even a little child or a retard can infer, stop talking about how great your theories are, when they have been tried and proven to be flawd......

why is it that the majority of the world population agrees that communism is flawd that it doesn't work, and that it's opressive? i mean why do thousands of Cubans throw themselves at sea each year to escape their communist regime? either cubans are the craziest daredevils in the world, or god, there must be something horribly wrong with their government....

and how can democracy be something wrong? how can the american government be wrong? you have what it's called separation of powers, its pretty much the best form of government ever developed, and the most copied, as well as our constitution, even the freaking Iranian government with its theocratic thologians follow this method...

why tell me why is it that the best countries in the world, with the people with the highest standard of living are capitalist countries? or am i wrong? please

[Sentinel]

i find this very interesting from Kablamo, listen im just going to sum it up for you, if you believe that it is such a great system why hasn't it worked yet? why is it that when i ask you to give me a success story you fail to reply, and all you say is "because it hasn't been done", you guys live in a theory world, be rational, if countries have tried it and failed miserably and the only succesful countries in the world are capitalist, well that ought to tell you something, i mean its something even a little child or a retard can infer, stop talking about how great your theories are, when they have been tried and proven to be flawd......

Because it hasn't been done. The material conditions weren't in the place. How hard can that be to understand?

Communism will emerge in the most developed countries first. The socialist revolutions happened in underdeveloped countries who just had left feudalism behind.

But since you never understood that, basically what you are saying is that nothing new should ever be tried more than once. We'd sit in caves had our ancestors used your logic.

This shows us the regressive nature of modern capitalism excellently.

From being a progressive force during feudalism it has been reduced to an obstacle for progress. All it has to say to us is "this is as good as it gets".

And obstacles must be destroyed, that's the way evolution works. Or maybe you don't believe in evolution? Would not surprise me.. :D


why is it that the majority of the world population agrees that communism is flawd that it doesn't work, and that it's opressive?

This is fucking bullshit, frankly. Ever heard of the leftwing wave going through south america lately, for example?

The US hegemony is crumbling in what it used to consider it's "backyard", and imperialism meets fierce resistance all over the world.

This tendence is growing ever stronger. This might come as a chock to you, but capitalism and imperialism aren't exactly loved all over the world.

They're despised. :angry:

You must be one of those americans who got chocked when the Iraqis weren't welcoming you as liberators, and thought : what's wrong with those guys, why don't they understand us?? :lol: :lol:


i mean why do thousands of Cubans throw themselves at sea each year to escape their communist regime?

How do you know for sure they all throw themselves, and aren't actually thrown by the revolutionary people of Cuba? The revolution doesn't need worms. ;) :lol:


and how can democracy be something wrong?

It isn't.


how can the american government be wrong?

Because they are imperialist murderers responsible of incredible misery all over the world every day, war criminals/profiteers, bigots, christian fascists and liars?


even the freaking Iranian government with its theocratic thologians follow this method...

Exactly our point. Thanks for this one! :)

You are very deluded about all this. Like others suggested, do some reading on communism and world history etc, and come back then.

[Dyst]

i find this very interesting from Kablamo, listen im just going to sum it up for you, if you believe that it is such a great system why hasn't it worked yet? why is it that when i ask you to give me a success story you fail to reply, and all you say is "because it hasn't been done", you guys live in a theory world, be rational, if countries have tried it and failed miserably and the only succesful countries in the world are capitalist, well that ought to tell you something, i mean its something even a little child or a retard can infer, stop talking about how great your theories are, when they have been tried and proven to be flawd......


It is you who "live in a theory world". We have responded to this sooo many times, yet you don't notice!

Communism is not an "alternative" to capitalism. Stateless communism is the economical system that capitalism will evolve into.

A country can't "fail" at "trying" to be communist. You can't just "try" to "make" a country become communist. I know, there has been people through history which thought otherwise, but they failed of course. I mean, the idea of attempting to "create" a system of economics, even without the #1 prerequisite (capitalism) in place is laughable.

Your "arguments" are even more laughable as you clearly don't understand the fact that capitalism has only been around for 300-500 years and forget that society is always evolving. If you said "the only successful countries in the world are capitalist" to a historian, for example, he would laugh out loud at you.

Seriously, turn off the sports on the TV and go read a book or even read some information on the internet. Anything.

[Red Leader]

I've neglected to post here for quite some time, mainly because I've been busy, and there havn't been any threads that have come to my attention. And there hasn't been any good young naive americans to easily refute lately, until now. I have read your posts, "Communism=Utopia", and this one stood out to me the most: (btw, to use the quote button, click it, write your quote, and click it again, simple, no need to panic!)


so why if someone born here with free education until the university becomes a homeless?? listen you choose your path, period....

Well, that is the question isn't it? I would have to say this is a direct result of the oppresive system that is american style capitalism, and is a direct example of how "wroking hard and playing by the rules will reward you in the end" is a load of donkey shit. This is what you are told. Everyone has oppurtunity right? If they aren't a millionaire, its thier own fault right? How can a person get any motivation to climb the coorporate ladder when he works a forty hour week and gets paid min wage while his boss sits upstairs telling what to do?

That is how capitalism works. The few at the top use the plenty at the bottom to thier on advantage, lying to them, saying they are that way because they are inferior, and diserve to be where they are because they are lazy and not motivated enough. That is the same excuse the kings gave the peasents during the middle ages for not being as rich as they were. "oh you guys are inferior because that is the way it works.

In the so called, "land of oppurtunity", there are people who still try to get an education, go to university and work thier butt off, but because of the system, some still struggle to get by in the end because they didnt have rich mommy and daddy to pay for their tuition. Face it, because of the system, people take advantage of other people, are cuthroat, and are cruel.

Sure, you choose your own path alright, its getting there thats the problem. Unless your a rich spoiled kid whos daddy owns a porsche, then good luck making it in america. It has nothing to do with lazyness. And dont give me "there are scholarships available for the poor". Bullshit, only if they have good enough grades. And how do they get these grades? By working extra hard. Why should they have to work doubly harder then some rich snot because thier parents are too poor?

Are you getting this? It all comes back to what class you come from. it has nothing to do with self motivation, laziness, or any other bullshit. You could be the most hard working, smartest person in the world, but if your not fucking rich enough, its too bad for you.

Soory, i got caried away :blink: I jsut hate it when people blam the homeless for being homeless. It is not thier fucking fault. It is societie's and people like you who treat them like dirt. Yeah your so fucking special living in your big house, with your nice bed, and your big screen tv. Yeah you worked hard for all that didnt you?


Oh, one more thing, about the human nature bit, the only reason people in today's society are selfish and greedy has nothing to do with human nature. Again, that is some bull excuse made up to try and defend the fact that people have more money than others. There is no such thing as human nature, rather human BEAHVIOUR People react to the society they olive in, according to how it tells them to. You live in one that says" be ruthles, make money, it doesnt matter its in your nature". Have you ever heard of a part of human nature that is good? How about its human nature to cooperate with each other, help someone out who is in need, and most importantly, REVOLT AGAINST OPPRESION. Couldnt that jsut as equally be said? Well, not in todays society because it doesnt allow for that. you try helping someone in need, society says whats the point, theier that way for a reason. Human nature therefore is bullshit.

[Communism=Utopia]

right. everything i say is bullshit, the homeless, the human nature etc... listen its pointless, your gonna have to wait for hell to freeze over to convince me (and the only way to convince me is by actually seeing with my own eyes communism work) which like i said you gonna have to wait for hell to freeze lmao

anyways, i find this real retarded, by the sentinel:

"How do you know for sure they all throw themselves, and aren't actually thrown by the revolutionary people of Cuba? The revolution doesn't need worms."

listen you dumb ass, how can they be expatriated from Cuba? if this was pissible you would have a mass exodous like the one in 1980, which instead was actually controlled by the Cuban governmnet and what they did was empty their jails and send 125,000 criminals to Miami...listen dick why do you think that if you try to get out of Cuba if your cought they put you in jail? dumb ass you pretty much don't know jack shit of what you talk about specially about Cuba, and why are they worms? because they don't believe what Castro believes? you fag, if your a real man you stand by your beliefs, and in Cuba if you do your put in jail or executed, real cool regime isn't , yeah your a real defender of society aren't you Sentinel, no wonder your a communist bastard....in Cuba you cannot speak your mind about government and thats the truth, and idiots like Sentinel call these people "Worms", lmao, so you believe in the 1 party system , and that no one should be allowed to think except in one way? get out of my sight you dumb fucking commie fuck off Sentinel , its people like you that piss me off the most, you fucking Stalin lover.....

if your a real man, and this goes out to all you people here, if ya'll think el Che, Castro, the Cuban Revolution, Communism, Karl Marx, etc... are so great, heroes, etc.. than why do you all live in capitalist countries, why don't ya'll stand by your beliefs and be a man, and go live in Cuba, North Korea, Laos, Vietnam, etc... doesn't look so cool now does it? fucking dicks....

listen, thats it, iv made my point, and its pointless to keep, on, i live in America, i enjoy the life here, im not rich at all, im 19 years old, i have a job, a house, a car, i go to the University, i make 500 a week, and i of course live with my parents who are immigrants, and you can't tell me that homeless are the cause of society, because if that was the case, i would be a homeless too...

thank you peace out

[Dyst]

if your a real man, and this goes out to all you people here, if ya'll think el Che, Castro, the Cuban Revolution, Communism, Karl Marx, etc... are so great, heroes, etc.. than why do you all live in capitalist countries, why don't ya'll stand by your beliefs and be a man, and go live in Cuba, North Korea, Laos, Vietnam, etc... doesn't look so cool now does it? fucking dicks....

WHY? Why are you acting so stupid? Please tell me you are acting.

Can you please state why those countries are communists? I must have missed it. Are they without a state? Are they without commodities? Have they even ever been capitalist? And if they were communist countries, which they obviously are not, then why should we move there instead of fighting for what we believe in where it matters? Fuck the silly capitalist "logic".

And half of "us" are women too.

[Communism=Utopia]

humm why are these countries communist, well lets see, a communist state is one that is governed by a single political party, DUH!!!!

ok yeah sure its an oxymoron, and i constantly get you all to bash me that they aren't communist, because yeah the classles stateless crap, but dude these states are in what Marx's theory said to be the transitional phase of the dictatorship of the proletariat.. get what i mean? or are you gonna say that its bullshit too?

i understand if your a trotsky follower, but understand that where ever you are my poor friend, your thoughts are never gonna realize, sorry to give you the hard truth...

[black magick hustla]

Stop using homophobic terms like "fag", you'll get banned.


right. everything i say is bullshit, the homeless, the human nature etc... listen its pointless, your gonna have to wait for hell to freeze over to convince me (and the only way to convince me is by actually seeing with my own eyes communism work) which like i said you gonna have to wait for hell to freeze lmao

Please type with your fingertips, typing by slapping your face against the keyboard is not a good idea!

What is human nature to you, anyway?

The quest for an infinite amount of commodities?

War, destruction?

Stupidity?

I think you will like this article, considering it is about native americans:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Iroquois

Long lasting communal gift economy practiced some centuries ago on your own precious american land!




hello i am not a very smart person but i pretend to be by speaking against cuba without knowing where my brain lies.

I am just going to point out some things:

1)Cuba cannot be communist (In the marxist sense) simply because Marx said that for communism to work, it needs to happen in a place where capitalism is very advanced. As we all know, Cuba isn't that case!

You can argue forever about how the party is called the "communist party of cuba", but as Zingu said, that would be turning marxist theory upside down.

I do agree that Cuba may be a communist country in the bourgeois sense, considering "communism" in modern times means a very bureacratic form of "socialism". However, you cannot associate Cuba with marxist communism, because it really isn't.


2) Sentinel calls the bourgeosie being exiled after the revolution "worms" because that is the term cubans associate them. Sentine doesn't necessarily use it as an insult.

3) It is really fucking stupid to try to compare Cuba to first world standards. Cuba is a small country with really not much to offer to the international market. It is a miracle that such an "impoverished" country can manage to have its population well-fed and sheltered. In fact the child mortality rate is smaller in Cuba than in America.

4)Obviously there will be some people trying to escape Cuba to pursue the American dream. It happens in every third world country. Why don't you mention the mexicans crossing the border illegally then? Mexico is one of the most capitalistic countries in Latin America, and millions have crossed the border illegally!

it seems Capitalism isn't as nice as you portray it!


if your a real man, and this goes out to all you people here, if ya'll think el Che, Castro, the Cuban Revolution, Communism, Karl Marx, etc... are so great, heroes, etc.. than why do you all live in capitalist countries, why don't ya'll stand by your beliefs and be a man, and go live in Cuba, North Korea, Laos, Vietnam, etc... doesn't look so cool now does it? fucking dicks....


This is really dumb.

I am not a marxist, but I can assure you that marxists fight for themselves. The marxist communist is selfish in the sense that he doesn't fights for an abstract idea, he fights to get for himself better material conditions. He doesn't needs to fight for his "ideals", he is no religious martyr!

He is not going to sacrifice what little he has won from the capitalist just to show how "manly" he can be.

(Also as I said before, those countries are not marxist-communist at all)-




listen, thats it, iv made my point, and its pointless to keep, on, i live in America, i enjoy the life here, im not rich at all, im 19 years old, i have a job, a house, a car, i go to the University, i make 500 a week, and i of course live with my parents who are immigrants, and you can't tell me that homeless are the cause of society, because if that was the case, i would be a homeless too...


Tell me how those a homeless person gets a job?

Entering mcdonalds and asking for it? :lol:

[YSR]

A communist state is not one with one party. That is a misconception perpetuated by the media and by the elites of society who wish to keep the people from taking power. "Communism" has no "state".

And you're right, they could be considered transitiona, EXCEPT if I remember my reading of Marxism, capitalism needs to come before socialism. In these countries you keep harping on, there never was capitalism. Therefore there cannot be socialism, according to Marxist theory.

I'm not a Marxist, but I think that's what they're getting at here. You continue to mention the same countries in ignorance of the fact that almost every here doesn't approve of their leadership. Not everyone, but almost.

You say you're not rich? Fine. Neither am I. But you've been co-opted by the powers-that-be. You've listened to the shit that they keep saying. It happens. I did for a long time too. I'm your age, in fact. Either way, stop posting here and do some research on what capitalism REALLY does. You're not going to convince us we're wrong and we won't convince you either. So do the research on your own. Look at how capitalism, imperialism, and American (yes, American. I live there, too) power has made the world difficult for so many people. Then, come back, as our comrade. I'll be waiting.

[Red Leader]

right. everything i say is bullshit, the homeless, the human nature etc... listen its pointless, your gonna have to wait for hell to freeze over to convince me (and the only way to convince me is by actually seeing with my own eyes communism work) which like i said you gonna have to wait for hell to freeze lmao

Learn to form real arguments


listen, thats it, iv made my point, and its pointless to keep, on, i live in America, i enjoy the life here, im not rich at all, im 19 years old, i have a job, a house, a car, i go to the University, i make 500 a week, and i of course live with my parents who are immigrants, and you can't tell me that homeless are the cause of society, because if that was the case, i would be a homeless too...

You just proved my point. Thanks. When did i ever say the homeless were the cause of society? You dont even make sense. No shit your not homeless because you come form a middle class family. Read my fucking post again.

[Communism=Utopia]

alright so you guys dont agree with the regimes in Cuba and in the past experimentations of communism, UNDERSTOOD!!

^^^^ but you support them , i mean, im sure you guys think of these regimes as "better" than America or Western Europe, or w/e.....what i mean you support them more....and if this is not the case, please let me know...

anyways, what does Cuba being a small country have to do with anything? omg, this means nothing, Cuba, has nickle, tabacoo, rum, sugar, etc... look at Ireland, Belgium, Holland, even freaking Luxemburg or Leichtestein or w/e its called...how come the people here have better standard of living, pretty much in a country the size of the city of Havana? well for one they sure didn't experiment with communism thats for sure....


anyways, lets do this, why dont you guys tell me what you think? so that i can understand better, instead of this pointless back and forth bashing. tell me how you guys think things should be run?

here is what i think, i dont think that pure capitlism is good, it doesn't work, state institutions should regulate certain means of the economy, i mean its surely necessary, a government should be in place, this is not only to control society but also like i said the economy, but, i of course think that business should be privetly owned without a doubt, with little government intervention, pretty much i believe that the american system is the best in place AT the moment .....the reasons why i dont agree with communism, is because a stateless society will lead to pretty much chaos, its like anarchism, and a classless society will never happen even if we try because we are humans....

thank you

[Communism=Utopia]

red leader, lets see, i live in a farely big city, i work around the city delivering medicine, and i have to go into the "ghetto", the poor black/hispanic neighberhoods, ok these people are "poor", but i find some things funny, why do all of them have real real nice cars with downright awsome rims!!?? damn, i didnt know poor people had cars with rims that look like Fast and the Furious? wow, and one more thing, how come all of them are just "chillin" in the street corners outside the liquor stores, i mean these people do nothing all day!!! are you going to tell me they are trying to find jobs? that they are like this because of society? listen bro your not even gonna convince me with that one even if hell did freeze over...for one, i see it whit my own two eyes in my country you dont (i guess you dont live in America obviously)

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2006, 03:29 AM






^^^^ but you support them , i mean, im sure you guys think of these regimes as "better" than America or Western Europe, or w/e.....what i mean you support them more....and if this is not the case, please let me know...

I was merely defending the Cuban regime against your obvious biased opinions.

I am an anarchist, of course I don't agree with Castro.


anyways, what does Cuba being a small country have to do with anything? omg, this means nothing, Cuba, has nickle, tabacoo, rum, sugar, etc... look at Ireland, Belgium, Holland, even freaking Luxemburg or Leichtestein or w/e its called...how come the people here have better standard of living, pretty much in a country the size of the city of Havana? well for one they sure didn't experiment with communism thats for sure....

Look at the past history of Cuba, Batista and before.

What do you see?

Certainly not a wealthy country, and certainly a much worse country than the one after the Revolution.

I still don't understand your contempt for Cuba, why don't you attack other Latin American governments instead? People under most latin american countries live in much worse conditions than cubans.



anyways, lets do this, why dont you guys tell me what you think? so that i can understand better, instead of this pointless back and forth bashing. tell me how you guys think things should be run?


People should take over the means of production (industries, land) and manage it democratically. Democracy in the workplace.

Read a bit about the anarchist role in the Spanish Civil War.


s because a stateless society will lead to pretty much chaos, its like anarchism, and a classless society will never happen even if we try because we are humans....


Most Anarchists are not against government, they are against the state.

A government could mean simply the natural organization of people into democratic assemblies without representatives, just delegates.

A state is the external institution that is over the people, not merged with it.

[Communism=Utopia]

"People should take over the means of production (industries, land) and manage it democratically. Democracy in the workplace."

well, ok, that sounds cool, i mean i can't say that i don't agree with it, but one thing what do you mean by people taking over the means of production? what? the whole population of a country, or a community take over a factory or something? can you go into detail? and how can you manage production democratically? i mean, its demand that calls for the means of production...althought i would understand if the whole population controlled production because they themselves would democratically make the production demands, or w/e lol.....do you get what im trying to ask you?

and about the state issue, listen, in this world, how things are, its impossible for this to happen, it just can't be realized man sorry....

[Zingu]

o you get what im trying to ask you?

Why can't you write in a style that isn't horribly convoluted? :(



and about the state issue, listen, in this world, how things are, its impossible for this to happen, it just can't be realized man sorry....

Looking at the bigger picture, its the only possible situation when capitalism self-implodes...which Lazar has already explained. How about you actually back up your "oh sorry, it won't work" with an agruement?

Because all you are saying is "I disagree".

[black magick hustla]

people taking over the means of production? what? the whole population of a country, or a community take over a factory or something?

The workers of a determined factory would take over it, and manage it democratically.

Money would be abolished, and instead there would be free association between factories, communities, etc.

So the workers that work in a determined factory would "own" it, but in order for them to survive they would need to cooperate with other "factories" and the "community".

Now, that is just speculation. It would depend on the community of a determined area. There won't be a "bureacracy" to look over "universal" laws.




and about the state issue, listen, in this world, how things are, its impossible for this to happen, it just can't be realized man sorry....

The state is an artifical concept and it didn't emerge until division of labor appeared. In fact, I could argue that many native american tribes were "stateless" in the modern sense of the word.

The Zapatistas, the Parisian Communards, and spanish anarchists did experiments that could be considered "anarchist".

[Communism=Utopia]

the workers of the factory would take over it, ok i understand that....but how would they decide the production value, democratically by themselves? or by the demands of the community? what if the workers were old people working in a CD factory, and the community wanted CD's of some controvercial singer, and the factoriy workers democratically voted to not produce them? (this is just an example) .........and money would be abolished, lol, wow, lets say the USA is the first country to experiment with this pure communism you support, the only way we would survive is if the whole freaking world would turn communist like us at the same time, and its funny, its almost an oxymoron, because you guys probably oppose globalization, but this would almost be like the same thing, its like 1 world state? anyways, i might be thinking to far ahead......

"So the workers that work in a determined factory would "own" it, but in order for them to survive they would need to cooperate with other "factories" and the "community"........

so lets say a meat market, the workers of a shoe factory would be able to get the meat because they offer the workers of the meat market shoes?? this is the cooperation you talk about? right? this is rediculous, but in a sense, i mean almost everything is related, because i was thinking even to the most downright incomarable things, like lets say a company that made video games, how would they get the cooperation with the meat market? but its true, unless all the meat marker workers were children lol....

listen, this is very very utopian thats all i gotta say man....well just like my name says, communism=utopia

and why do you keep citing the native americans, jesus, they were NATIVE AMERICANS!!! isolated people from cultures of europe, africa, and asia, jesuse if you name them , i can name you the italian states, the silk road, the bazaar systems in the middle east, etc.. all examples of free enterprises....

[Zingu]

Yes, you've read Das Kapital, as I can see now. :rolleyes: (/sarcasm)

[Communism=Utopia]

why don't you anwser my questions (if you can) instead of trying to act cool, listen i never said iv read the whole freaking manifestos, iv just read parts of the freaking Das Kapital thats all, and about the main idea....but if my questions were adressed by Marx in Das Kapital im obviously oblivious to them , and thus why you should adress them to me you silly fuck ........

[black magick hustla]

I think you cannot grasp the concept of working collectively. :(



the workers of the factory would take over it, ok i understand that....but how would they decide the production value, democratically by themselves?

Money and commodity exchange would be abolished, there won't be a value to decide.


or by the demands of the community? what if the workers were old people working in a CD factory, and the community wanted CD's of some controvercial singer, and the factoriy workers democratically voted to not produce them?

The workers could tell the community to fuck themselves and start growing their own food.

Or they could yield to the demands and receive food from the community.

Simple.



USA is the first country to experiment with this pure communism you support, the only way we would survive is if the whole freaking world would turn communist like

The average communist thinks internationally.

However, I can assure you the United States would "survive" if it turned "communist". There are plenty of resources to salvage.

Maybe you won't be able to buy your ipods, but you will surely survive. :)


because you guys probably oppose globalization, but this would almost be like the same thing, its like 1 world state?

Communists are internationalists.


so lets say a meat market, the workers of a shoe factory would be able to get the meat because they offer the workers of the meat market shoes??

You are thinking from the commodity-exchange perspective.

It is not about exchanging a number of meat kilograms for a determined number of shoes. It is about producing meat for the community while the shoe factory produces shoes for the community. Simple.

There is no exchange involved, there is gift-economy.




listen, this is very very utopian thats all i gotta say man....well just like my name says, communism=utopia

You make conclusions too fast, and you are not bothering to research a bit on your own.



and why do you keep citing the native americans, jesus, they were NATIVE AMERICANS!!! isolated people from cultures of europe, africa, and asia, jesuse if you name them , i can name you the italian states, the silk road, the bazaar systems in the middle east, etc.. all examples of free enterprises....

Because they disprove your uneducated theory about human nature.

If humans were really that bad, Native americans wouldn't have been able to live like that.

Unless you considered native americans not-human.

But that would probably get you banned. :)

[Communism=Utopia]

"The workers could tell the community to fuck themselves and start growing their own food.

Or they could yield to the demands and receive food from the community.

Simple."

so its kind of an economical "separation of powers", LMFAO!!! heehhehehe right,


"However, I can assure you the United States would "survive" if it turned "communist". There are plenty of resources to salvage.

Maybe you won't be able to buy your ipods, but you will surely survive."

if we have no money , how can we expect to profit with exports/imports? how would we be able to import oil for example? by giving the arabs expensive cars? lmao...you understand how irrational this is right?

i mean this is awsome, i guess everyone will eat, everyone will work, everyone will have clothes, everyone will have whatever they desire is this right? lol, jesus i will finally have a Lambourghini Murcielago? what would happen to countries with no resources? what would happen to the people who work in social services? ohh you operated on me, you can get free shoes and a meal? i guess everything is just free....hahahhahaa ohh man, 3 words for you utopia utopia utopia

"Because they disprove your uneducated theory about human nature.

If humans were really that bad, Native americans wouldn't have been able to live like that.

Unless you considered native americans not-human."

they are not human!! they are HOMOSAPIENS!! :angry:

anyways, my uneducated theory about human nature, have you even heard of Freud?of Maslow? of Jung? i suggest you do some research, humans are individuals, with different desires, feelings, and specially way of thinking, you think everyone wants to work? and humans are not that bad, yeah hehehehe Hitler, Stalin, Castro, Napoleon, Mao, they weren't that bad, they only killed combined about 1 billion people, ahh they weren't that bad....humans are complex, you think we will all want to be part of a factory? geez this sounds like the industrial revolution lol.....

[red team]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2006, 03:34 AM
red leader, lets see, i live in a farely big city, i work around the city delivering medicine, and i have to go into the "ghetto", the poor black/hispanic neighberhoods, ok these people are "poor", but i find some things funny, why do all of them have real real nice cars with downright awsome rims!!?? damn, i didnt know poor people had cars with rims that look like Fast and the Furious? wow, and one more thing, how come all of them are just "chillin" in the street corners outside the liquor stores, i mean these people do nothing all day!!! are you going to tell me they are trying to find jobs? that they are like this because of society? listen bro your not even gonna convince me with that one even if hell did freeze over...for one, i see it whit my own two eyes in my country you dont (i guess you dont live in America obviously)
First of all, very few people can be self-employed at this late stage of the economy. As hard working and as talented as you are, you're forgetting that wealth is concentrated in fewer and fewer hands as Capitalism progresses and you'll be competing with large corporations with enough money invested in them to hire the brightest people and buy the best machinery. Where do you think those car rims you saw with your own eyes were made? From a home garage? :lol:

Even Bill Gates as rich as he is got his first break when IBM gave him the contract to write an operating system for their new line of personal computers back in the 80's. And we're talking 1 person out of many, many talented people who could have done an equally good or better job at it. So in effect, he didn't start his own company as much as he wants other people to know he did it all by himself because he's an egomaniac. He got a big boost from an established corporation giving him the start up money. You'll be lucky if you manage to break even starting your own business at this late stage of the Capitalist game. You'll have more luck winning the lottery if you want to strike it rich.

These guy's were "chillin" in the streets cuz they know the facts. They know their situation and their being realistic about it. Unlike you who think they could get together to buy a factory or office building with their welfare checks. If you think they could do that you're more stupid than I thought.

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2006, 06:08 AM
"The workers could tell the community to fuck themselves and start growing their own food.

Or they could yield to the demands and receive food from the community.

Simple."



"However, I can assure you the United States would "survive" if it turned "communist". There are plenty of resources to salvage.

Maybe you won't be able to buy your ipods, but you will surely survive."

i mean this is awsome, i guess everyone will eat, everyone will work, everyone will have clothes, everyone will have whatever they desire is this right? lol, jesus i will finally have a Lambourghini Murcielago? what would happen to countries with no resources? what would happen to the people who work in social services? ohh you operated on me, you can get free shoes and a meal? i guess everything is just free....hahahhahaa ohh man, 3 words for you utopia utopia utopia

"Because they disprove your uneducated theory about human nature.

If humans were really that bad, Native americans wouldn't have been able to live like that.

Unless you considered native americans not-human."

they are not human!! they are HOMOSAPIENS!! :angry:

anyways, my uneducated theory about human nature, have you even heard of Freud?of Maslow? of Jung? i suggest you do some research, humans are individuals, with different desires, feelings, and specially way of thinking, you think everyone wants to work? and humans are not that bad, yeah hehehehe Hitler, Stalin, Castro, Napoleon, Mao, they weren't that bad, they only killed combined about 1 billion people, ahh they weren't that bad....humans are complex, you think we will all want to be part of a factory? geez this sounds like the industrial revolution lol.....

so its kind of an economical "separation of powers", LMFAO!!! heehhehehe right,


What separation of powers?

It is just free association, and I don't think it is a difficult concept to grasp.



if we have no money , how can we expect to profit with exports/imports? how would we be able to import oil for example? by giving the arabs expensive cars? lmao...you understand how irrational this is right?


No, it isn't irrational at all.

You are used to the abundance of useless commodities, and that is why you cannot grasp the concept of simple clothing, food and shelter.

Most of this things can either be grown or already exist in the United States.

US

[Zingu]

why don't you anwser my questions (if you can) instead of trying to act cool, listen i never said iv read the whole freaking manifestos, iv just read parts of the freaking Das Kapital thats all, and about the main idea....but if my questions were adressed by Marx in Das Kapital im obviously oblivious to them , and thus why you should adress them to me you silly fuck ........

Of what I make out of your writing, we have been giving you answers, but it seems you choose to ignore them and continue to blurt out for ignorant crap, which makes us doubt even more if you know anything.


anyways, my uneducated theory about human nature, have you even heard of Freud?of Maslow? of Jung? i suggest you do some research, humans are individuals, with different desires, feelings, and specially way of thinking, you think everyone wants to work?


Funny that you mention Freud, because he agreed with alot of what Marx said! :lol:

There are many Marxist-Freudian thinkers as well, such as Erich Fromm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/fromm/index.htm) and Herbert Marcuse (http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/marcuse/index.htm)

Who both talked alot about human emtions, individuality and how it relates to Socialism. See, in your dim-witted brain, you still think Socialism = Soviet Union where "everyone was the same", and you're too stupid (I think I'm justified to say that considering about 5 other people have told you that, but you choose to block them out) to get it that we're proposing something completely different. You think we're fighting to oppress ourselves? Quite the opposite!

Most philosophy on "human nature" is total crap, modern neuroscience has proved this.

[Zingu]

No, it isn't irrational at all.

You are used to the abundance of useless commodities, and that is why you cannot grasp the concept of simple clothing, food and shelter.

Most of this things can either be grown or already exist in the United States.

US

He doesn't understand that Communism a stage in human society which is the total amount of productive forces have been maximized to such an extent that supply and demand is not signifigant enough to aggregate any possibility of making a profit..

[Communism=Utopia]

why do you turn this into self employment? and entrepenuership? do you think i own my own business or something?

"These guy's were "chillin" in the streets cuz they know the facts. They know their situation and their being realistic about it. Unlike you who think they could get together to buy a factory or office building with their welfare checks. If you think they could do that you're more stupid than I thought."

yup they sure know the reality, the love smoking that weed, and drinking that beer from 8 in the morning till 12 at night, ohh yeah ohh boy, in any other country they would of died of starvation, thankfully for them they can fuck as many hoes in their block and have as many children so they can live off the fucking food stamps......dude, again , when did i turn this into an entrepenuership issue, how can they buy a damn factory or office building if they are not even employed?? the fact is that they don't work because they don't want to!!! how come i work? all i had to do was read the fucking newspaper, read about 3 damn pages full of job listings and give em a damn call for an interview, its that simple!!!

ohh but thats right, im the bourgeoisie, they are the opressed proletariat (they dont even work), and they know the reality and i dont, so its better for them to just "chill" in the hood and do nothing....... :rolleyes: ohh man lol

[black magick hustla]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2006, 06:08 AM







so its kind of an economical "separation of powers", LMFAO!!! heehhehehe right,


What separation of powers?

It is just free association, and I don't think it is a difficult concept to grasp.



if we have no money , how can we expect to profit with exports/imports? how would we be able to import oil for example? by giving the arabs expensive cars? lmao...you understand how irrational this is right?


No, it isn't irrational at all.

You are used to the abundance of useless commodities, and that is why you cannot grasp the concept of simple clothing, food and shelter.

Most of this things can either be grown or already exist in the United States.

US has huge oil reserves, and in order to mantain them intact, they import it from somewhere.

Besides, I never advocated "communism" in one country, what are you trying to argue?



i mean this is awsome, i guess everyone will eat, everyone will work, everyone will have clothes, everyone will have whatever they desire is this right? lol, jesus i will finally have a Lambourghini Murcielago? what would happen to countries with no resources? what would happen to the people who work in social services? ohh you operated on me, you can get free shoes and a meal? i guess everything is just free....hahahhahaa

Stop typing like that, it is unnecessary and annoying.

Also, I don't know what have expensive cars to do with survival.

Gift economies have been placed into work in many places, like in Spanish anarchism and many native american tribes. It isn't a new concept at all.


anyways, my uneducated theory about human nature, have you even heard of Freud?of Maslow? of Jung? i suggest you do some research, humans are individuals, with different desires, feelings, and specially way of thinking, you think everyone wants to work?


The greatest expression of the individual will be unleashed in the mutual aid of the people. Imagine the possibilites of people reducing their work hours because there won't be a parasitic boss draining their profit! People would be able to dedicate themselves to the creative arts and create a more beautiful world.


Hitler, Stalin, Castro, Napoleon, Mao, they weren't that bad, they only killed combined about 1 billion people, ahh they weren't that bad....humans are complex, you think we will all want to be part of a factory? geez this sounds like the industrial revolution lol.....

Because they don't represent the mayority of the population?

I don't see how castro fits over there, but whatever.

It is sad how people like you have such a machiavellic view of humanity. I really pity your kind, which submerges itself into misanthropic nonsense.




anyways, my uneducated theory about human nature, have you even heard of Freud?of Maslow? of Jung? i suggest you do some research, humans are individuals, with different desires, feelings, and specially way of thinking, you think everyone wants to work? and humans are not that bad, yeah hehehehe

Hahaha, I doubt you really read them, considering you have a horrible grammar and a horrible reading comprehension.

[Zingu]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2006, 06:26 AM

ohh but thats right, im the bourgeoisie,
I am seriously hoping you are lying and you don't own your own factory.


I would seriously feel sorry for your workers.

[Communism=Utopia]

my last post was to Red Star


as for you guys, can you please anwser my general question, so everything in communism will be free?? how about the availability of things? like i said will i be able to have a freaking Ferrari or something? will the availability of things come from public demand? or from individual demand?

[red team]

anyways, my uneducated theory about human nature, have you even heard of Freud?of Maslow? of Jung? i suggest you do some research, humans are individuals, with different desires, feelings, and specially way of thinking, you think everyone wants to work? and humans are not that bad, yeah hehehehe Hitler, Stalin, Castro, Napoleon, Mao, they weren't that bad, they only killed combined about 1 billion people, ahh they weren't that bad....humans are complex, you think we will all want to be part of a factory? geez this sounds like the industrial revolution lol.....


War and expansion for empire is the natural progression of all nation states at this stage in human society, so you might want to add Washington to your list. Otherwise the U.S. will still be the original 13 colonies of the east coast. This "works" only so far as weapons don't become so destructive as to potentially be able to destroy all human civilization. We are at that stage right now. But at the same time the high technology that made it possible to make extremely destructive weapons could be turned around to make things that people can actually use to improve their lives and make their work easier so there won't be any need for empires anywhere in the world.

[Communism=Utopia]

Zingu, hahaha chill man, im only 19 years old, just starting the university...my parents are normal people, my mom works in an office, and my dad works in DHL
and i choose to work, so that i can aliviate some things, for example, the payment of my car, car insurance etc.., but at the same time, i have money to suite my individual desires, which i suspect will not be able to be realized under communism ;)

[anomaly]

Ok, you troll piece of trash, let's make this a whole lot easier.

We Marxists accept historical materialism, that is, history advances in socioeconomic epochs, which must be followed in order. To make it easy for you, let's just name the past two epochs: feudalism and capitalism. Now, wherever you look in the world, countries go from feudalism to capitalism. This is why Lenin could not create a communist society out of Russia: Russia was feudal. According to HM, then, Russia would become a capitalist state, and this is exactly what happened.

The epochs of HM progress according to prevailing material conditions. For example, if we have but a horse-drawn plough as the greatest technological achievement in a society, that society will be feudal. Likewise with technological development and capitalism. as technology progresses, so progresses all of society, including morals and religion (atheism is growing and Europe and it's no longer 'wrong' for a black man to marry a white woman).

But anyway, if you are to claim that communism is 'impossible' or that it's 'never going to happen', then you must come up with a new theory of history. It is ahistorical to say that capitalism will last forever; nothing lasts forever. The leaders of the Roman and then the British empires though their empires would last forever. Well, that has proven false. Just as these empires fell, so have fallen socioeconomic systems. The lords of feudalism never thought that they would have to further divide their holding amongst other 'mini-despots'. And now the bourgeoisie believes, as your reactionary self does, that capitalism will never end.

So, on what grounds do you say this? By what theory can you explain this, that history progresses, progresses, progresses, and then just stops.

Explain yourself, fool!

[Ice]

if your a real man, and this goes out to all you people here, if ya'll think el Che, Castro, the Cuban Revolution, Communism, Karl Marx, etc... are so great, heroes, etc.. than why do you all live in capitalist countries, why don't ya'll stand by your beliefs and be a man, and go live in Cuba, North Korea, Laos, Vietnam, etc... doesn't look so cool now does it? fucking dicks....


Because I want to make my country a socialist.



as for you guys, can you please anwser my general question, so everything in communism will be free?? how about the availability of things? like i said will i be able to have a freaking Ferrari or something? will the availability of things come from public demand? or from individual demand?


i live in America, i enjoy the life here, im not rich at all

You are not rich but still you are happy then why do you want a Ferrari? :hammer:

[вор в законе]

Communism=Utopia said

im not rich at all, im 19 years old, i have a job, a house, a car, i go to the University, i make 500 a week,


You are in fact the proof that Capitalism is an unequal system. Everyone in this thread is more intelligent than you, yet you earn only 2000$ each month.

Tsk tsk tsk

Communism=Utopia said

right. everything i say is bullshit, the homeless, the human nature etc

At least you admit it.

[Ice]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2006, 06:34 AM
i have money to suite my individual desires, which i suspect will not be able to be realized under communism ;)
an you give me some examples about your desires which you will not be able to get in a socialist country?

[leftist resistance]

HAHAHAHA :lol: :lol:

anyway,4 pages just to refute the same points. :huh: after which the same arguments are used against the explanations.again,and again,and again...and again <_<

[Communism=Utopia]

anomaly, yes i have to agree with you, nothing lasts forever, this is very true, but im convinced that communism is now what will follow capitalism, just because the system cannot work with human beings, unless there is a state, an all powerful state, and a mighty ruler, which is what has happened in all all previous experimentations......


"You are not rich but still you are happy then why do you want a Ferrari?"

well, i didnt mean for you to take it literally, i meant it to represent expensive things, for example, i have a computer which cost me 2000+ dollars, Sony Vaio, 200 gb hard drive, 1.0 ghz, i mean its &#036;2000, thats all i gotta say, so this will be available to everyone under the communist system for free?

"You are in fact the proof that Capitalism is an unequal system. Everyone in this thread is more intelligent than you, yet you earn only 2000&#036; each month."

how do you clasify intelligence? you think ignorance is the tool to classify intelligence?

because Einstein didn&#39;t know shit of say marine bioligy he wasn&#39;t as intelligent as those who did? common sense is what defines you, and you have just defined yourself to me in your analogy of "intelligence", you don&#39;t understand what you even talk about...

and your intelligence analogy is also distorted, not only by the point i made above, but also in the pathetic way you used it to describe how capitalism is flawed..so because someone is not intelligent as the other and he earns more than the "intelligent" one is something wrong? yet again how fair communism is right, yeah lets put the intelligent ones working in the best jobs and the dumb ones in the factories..i thought communism was supposed to be fair? lol...and did you ever go to school? school is a perfect example of how its all about personal effort, kids with IQ&#39;s of geniouses who got bad grades in school compared to retards who got good grades, but those retards were committed and they studied, in the other hand the intelligent one was lazy ....

anyways, im done for today, gotta go, tomorrow for another round....lol

take care guys

thank you

[red team]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2006, 06:26 AM
why do you turn this into self employment? and entrepenuership? do you think i own my own business or something?

"These guy&#39;s were "chillin" in the streets cuz they know the facts. They know their situation and their being realistic about it. Unlike you who think they could get together to buy a factory or office building with their welfare checks. If you think they could do that you&#39;re more stupid than I thought."

yup they sure know the reality, the love smoking that weed, and drinking that beer from 8 in the morning till 12 at night, ohh yeah ohh boy, in any other country they would of died of starvation, thankfully for them they can fuck as many hoes in their block and have as many children so they can live off the fucking food stamps......dude, again , when did i turn this into an entrepenuership issue, how can they buy a damn factory or office building if they are not even employed?? the fact is that they don&#39;t work because they don&#39;t want to&#33;&#33;&#33; how come i work? all i had to do was read the fucking newspaper, read about 3 damn pages full of job listings and give em a damn call for an interview, its that simple&#33;&#33;&#33;

ohh but thats right, im the bourgeoisie, they are the opressed proletariat (they dont even work), and they know the reality and i dont, so its better for them to just "chill" in the hood and do nothing....... :rolleyes: ohh man lol
The one thing that you&#39;re forgetting is that business is competitive. They have to make a profit, otherwise they won&#39;t be a business anymore. Businesses also compete with other businesses all around the world to make the most products with the lowest costs. So far so good right? WRONG&#33; Because the most successful business produce the most with the least they return the most profit for their investors, so if you were an investor you&#39;ll naturally go for the business that returns you the most for your investment.

Well, guess what other businesses are doing to attract the most investors so that they could expand their business with the investment money given to them? They&#39;re going to compete in lowering costs including the wages they pay workers while increasing production by making the worker work faster and longer.

You work hard no doubt, but the harder you work the more the company could afford to have less workers working for them so they could get richer for themselves. Most of the time it&#39;s not even your option to "work hard" or not. The company requires you to work double duty while letting go of people already working there so you could do their jobs also, but with the same pay. The fact that you work harder and longer just makes it easier for management to make a bigger profit for their investors and harder for people applying for jobs who could have just as easily shared in your work.

Also, because business always pay their workers less than what they make in profit, there&#39;s always going to be some people left without a job. It&#39;s a mathematical impossibility for everyone who wants a job to get one in this economy. Its like adding 1 + 1 and expecting 3. This is what Marx was trying to get at. If you don&#39;t know this then you don&#39;t know anything about Marxism.

[anomaly]

Communism=Utopia said:
"but im convinced that communism is not what will follow capitalism, just because the system cannot work with human beings, unless there is a state, an all powerful state, and a mighty ruler, which is what has happened in all all previous experimentations......"

But I explained that those &#39;previous experimentations&#39; really did not have the goal of communism, but rather had the goal of capitalism. Lenin can say whatever he wants, but the fact remains that it is impossible to go from feudalism to communism.

And communism cannot have "a state, an all powerful state, and a mighty ruler". This is by definition not communism&#33;

In addition, if you think communism is impossible, then what do you propose? Taking a negative position is easy. Taking a positive, not so easy. So what is your alternative to communism?

[KC]

why?why do you and people here keep saying that the ex Soviet Union was not communist? that Korea , that Cuba, etc.. are not communist? because they are not a classless society? when are you going to understand that a classless fucking society will never fucking happend&#33;&#33; get it through your damn MIND&#33;&#33;&#33; these countries are experimentations, and the fact of the matter is that 1 strong leader will always be what that means, and turn himslef into a "king" (Castro, Kim, Stalin, Brezhnev,etc.)........HELLO&#33;&#33;&#33; its called the communist party of Cuba, of North Korea, it was called the communist party of USSR, umm you know?? it was not like China right now, which its called the Communist Party of China but we all know that having McDonald&#39;s even freaking Audi dealers and Starbuck&#39;s is def. not communism hehehehe.....because these are all failures you try to hide from the fact that communism sucks? listen get over it, the battle of influence is over, we won, thats it.....


These countries were experiments in Marxism-Leninism. Now, if you want to condemn Marxism-Leninism, go for it - hell, a lot of people here would agree with you - but to condemn all different communist theories because you believe Marxism-Leninism failed is to make a blind generalization that has no basis in reality.



so you think that humans naturally think in "group" or something? you don&#39;t believe that its human nature to want things your way? hahahha ohh please , give me a break, of course under communism you can&#39;t think that way, hence why you can&#39;t be an entrepreneur for example....

I think that human nature doesn&#39;t exist in the sense that you are saying it does. And I&#39;m right. People&#39;s consciousness is determined by the environment they exist in. Since people exist in a capitalist environment, they are taught to be greedy, to be individualistic, to climb on top of other people to get to the top, etc... This has nothing to do with some mystical "human nature" that you claim. It has to do with social conditioning and nothing more&#33;&#33;&#33;


socially equal , thats the fact of life, people are people, we dont want as humans to be socially equal as a matter of fact

So you are in favor of people being poor? You are in favor of people starving to death? You are in favor of people ruining others&#39; lives so they can make a buck? You are opposed to these people having equal opportunity at life, and equal opportunity to succeed at life? Are you an idiot?&#33;


.listen i prefer the self choice method, instead of someone telling me how to live my life

Nobody would tell you how to live your life in a communist society. That&#39;s the best part about a communist society; freedom to do whatever you want. This, of course, isn&#39;t offered by the capitalist system (maybe to the wealthy).


how can you benefit society first? and expect to benefit yourself later?

Well, when you work for society, you are benefitting both society and yourself at the same time&#33;&#33;&#33; Mindblowing, isn&#39;t it?



not really, i wish all people had a house and a steady job, and food to eat, but at least here in America in a capitalist society, even though many homeless people are that way because of turbulant times in their lifetime, i dont have a general sense of pity, because many choose to be that way, in a society like ours here in A
merica, immigrants come and flourish, so why if someone born here with free education until the university becomes a homeless?? listen you choose your path, period....

Are you fucking kidding me? So you believe that a child born into a poor family in Harlem has equal choice in how he conducts his life as a rich child born into a family in Beverly Hills?




i find this very interesting from Kablamo, listen im just going to sum it up for you, if you believe that it is such a great system why hasn&#39;t it worked yet? why is it that when i ask you to give me a success story you fail to reply, and all you say is "because it hasn&#39;t been done", you guys live in a theory world, be rational, if countries have tried it and failed miserably and the only succesful countries in the world are capitalist, well that ought to tell you something, i mean its something even a little child or a retard can infer, stop talking about how great your theories are, when they have been tried and proven to be flawd......

I&#39;ve already explained this repeatedly; I suggest you read my previous posts again.




and how can democracy be something wrong? how can the american government be wrong?

Democracy isn&#39;t wrong. America isn&#39;t a democracy.



why tell me why is it that the best countries in the world, with the people with the highest standard of living are capitalist countries? or am i wrong? please

Almost all countries in the world are capitalist. So tell me why is it that the worst countries in the world, with the people with the lowest standard of living are capitalist countries?


right. everything i say is bullshit, the homeless, the human nature etc... listen its pointless, your gonna have to wait for hell to freeze over to convince me (and the only way to convince me is by actually seeing with my own eyes communism work) which like i said you gonna have to wait for hell to freeze lmao


You have yet to prove your outrageous "human nature" claim. So let&#39;s hear it&#33; Know what destroys your view on this subject? Social conditioning. Being determines consciousness. Materialism.


humm why are these countries communist, well lets see, a communist state is one that is governed by a single political party, DUH&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

There is no such thing as a communist state. Now you&#39;re just propping up arguments that you can knock down and make you feel better about yourself.



ok yeah sure its an oxymoron, and i constantly get you all to bash me that they aren&#39;t communist, because yeah the classles stateless crap, but dude these states are in what Marx&#39;s theory said to be the transitional phase of the dictatorship of the proletariat.. get what i mean? or are you gonna say that its bullshit too?


Actually, no it isn&#39;t. Marx wouldn&#39;t say that. Lenin would, but Marx wouldn&#39;t. So if you want to attack Marxism-Leninism, then go for it&#33;&#33;&#33;


tell me how you guys think things should be run?

Money should be abolished. The economy should be abolished. Classes should be abolished (and with it states). People work voluntarily, they can choose whatever job they like, as the division of labour is abolished. Everything is organized in councils to oversee such things as the transportation of goods. Everything is free. People are free to do whatever they wish.


the reasons why i dont agree with communism, is because a stateless society will lead to pretty much chaos, its like anarchism, and a classless society will never happen even if we try because we are humans....

Why would it lead to chaos? There would still be laws to follow. There would still be people to enforce those laws. There would still be a means of punishing those that violate those laws. How would there be anarchy? Also, why would a classless society never happen? How does saying "we are humans" even justify that claim? In fact, it destroys that claim. Again, I offer you to prove the fact that your "human nature" exists. Let&#39;s see some sources. Do you have any? I have plenty to support my side.



well, ok, that sounds cool, i mean i can&#39;t say that i don&#39;t agree with it, but one thing what do you mean by people taking over the means of production? what? the whole population of a country, or a community take over a factory or something? can you go into detail? and how can you manage production democratically? i mean, its demand that calls for the means of production...althought i would understand if the whole population controlled production because they themselves would democratically make the production demands, or w/e lol.....do you get what im trying to ask you?

The means of production not just in one factory, or one city, or even one country, but the entire world. How would it be any different how to determine the amount of commodities to produce? The amount of commodities that are taken from each distribution center could easily be monitored.



and about the state issue, listen, in this world, how things are, its impossible for this to happen, it just can&#39;t be realized man sorry....

You&#39;re right. How things are, it is impossible for this to happen. But the point is that later, it will be possible, and it will happen.


and money would be abolished, lol, wow, lets say the USA is the first country to experiment with this pure communism you support, the only way we would survive is if the whole freaking world would turn communist like us at the same time

That&#39;s the point. Communism will engulf the globe.


and its funny, its almost an oxymoron, because you guys probably oppose globalization, but this would almost be like the same thing, its like 1 world state?

We oppose globalization because we support workers&#39; rights, however we also recognize it as an inevitable development in the evolution of capitalism. Also, it wouldn&#39;t be "1 world state" any more than capitalism is. The political structure of the entire world wouldn&#39;t be any more centralized than the political structure of capitalism, probably even less so.



so lets say a meat market, the workers of a shoe factory would be able to get the meat because they offer the workers of the meat market shoes?? this is the cooperation you talk about? right?

No. The workers of the meat market would deliver the meat to distribution centers, as would the shoe factory workers, for public consumption.



listen, this is very very utopian thats all i gotta say man....well just like my name says, communism=utopia


That&#39;s because you&#39;re not understanding anything anyone here is saying.


why don&#39;t you anwser my questions

I have, repeatedly, and you choose to ignore my answers.



i mean this is awsome, i guess everyone will eat, everyone will work, everyone will have clothes, everyone will have whatever they desire is this right? lol, jesus i will finally have a Lambourghini Murcielago? what would happen to countries with no resources? what would happen to the people who work in social services? ohh you operated on me, you can get free shoes and a meal? i guess everything is just free....hahahhahaa ohh man, 3 words for you utopia utopia utopia

Yes, in a communist society everything is free. Of course, in a communist society you wouldn&#39;t want a Lambourghini Murcielago. Why would you? It&#39;s no longer a status symbol. People wouldn&#39;t care if you had one. Hell, they&#39;d probably stop being made. Luxuries would lose their social value, as money and the class system is abolished.


they are not human&#33;&#33; they are HOMOSAPIENS&#33;&#33; mad.gif

They&#39;re human.


you think everyone wants to work?

Yes. That&#39;s what hobbies are.


and humans are not that bad, yeah hehehehe Hitler, Stalin, Castro, Napoleon, Mao, they weren&#39;t that bad, they only killed combined about 1 billion people, ahh they weren&#39;t that bad....

Humans in general aren&#39;t bad. Humans aren&#39;t intrinsically evil. That claim is absurd.


humans are complex, you think we will all want to be part of a factory?

Of course not&#33; The factory example is presented so often because it is the easiest one to work with.


the fact is that they don&#39;t work because they don&#39;t want to&#33;&#33;&#33;

They can&#39;t get a decent job because they aren&#39;t offered decent schooling, and can&#39;t afford a college education. Because of this, they are pressured enormously by the culture they live in to drop out of school, and to do other things such as become religious, do drugs, deal drugs, etc...



ohh but thats right, im the bourgeoisie

I doubt that you&#39;re bourgeois. You obviously have bourgeois sentiments right now and you are supportive of bourgeois society, but you aren&#39;t bourgeois.


so everything in communism will be free??

Yes.


like i said will i be able to have a freaking Ferrari or something?

No. But that&#39;s just because you&#39;ll be dead by the time communism is implemented, and nobody will care about getting a Ferrari in that time period.


will the availability of things come from public demand? or from individual demand?

Public demand. Of course, if you want something that isn&#39;t generally offered you could ask the people with the capabilities to make it to make it for you, or to learn how to make it and make it yourself.


anomaly, yes i have to agree with you, nothing lasts forever, this is very true, but im convinced that communism is now what will follow capitalism, just because the system cannot work with human beings, unless there is a state, an all powerful state, and a mighty ruler, which is what has happened in all all previous experimentations......


Marxism-Leninism. Not communism.


so this will be available to everyone under the communist system for free?

Sure, if public demand is high enough. Obviously it will be for things such as computers.


yet again how fair communism is right, yeah lets put the intelligent ones working in the best jobs and the dumb ones in the factories..i thought communism was supposed to be fair?

In communism people will be able to choose what they want to do. If it turns out that way it will be completely by coincidence. Of course, the majority of factories will be fully automated.

[Sentinel]

listen you dumb ass, how can they be expatriated from Cuba? if this was pissible you would have a mass exodous like the one in 1980, which instead was actually controlled by the Cuban governmnet and what they did was empty their jails and send 125,000 criminals to Miami...

That was what I was kind of referring to. A criminal is a person of predatory nature without enough capital to found a company, as a wise man once said.

Of course some people flee from Cuba, thinking that the grass is greener on the other side. I doubt they are missed. :D

But it&#39;s also illegal to travel from US to Cuba, isn&#39;t it? Why might that be?


listen dick why do you think that if you try to get out of Cuba if your cought they put you in jail?

Because they are neglecting their responsibilities towards the people and the revolution. I say they should just throw them out though.


why are they worms?

Worm, gusano, is the term the cuban people agrees on for these traitors.


you fag

Yes, I am queer. And this is an outrageous homophobic statement, which I hope your sorry ass gets banned for soon enough. :angry:


if your a real man you stand by your beliefs

And this is sexism, also not acceptable here. We communists think women also are capable of "standing by their beliefs", you see.


no wonder your a communist bastard

No I&#39;m not. My parents, although communists, were actually married. Not in a church though. :lol:


in Cuba you cannot speak your mind about government and thats the truth
Because Cuba is besieged and spied upon by a hostile superpower. Completely natural in my opinion. You&#39;d see their point if that would ever happen to your country.


so you believe in the 1 party system

How is that different from a system with two identical parties?


and that no one should be allowed to think except in one way?

Are you implying that you&#39;d allow everyone to speak their mind? Say a Rapists and Murderers Party?

We communists see capitalism as a fundamentally flawed and harmful system, depriving human beings their right to freedom, and destroying lifes.

Wanting to restore that and force it upon people once freed from it is criminal indeed, and should be treated thereafter.


if your a real man, and this goes out to all you people here, if ya&#39;ll think el Che, Castro, the Cuban Revolution, Communism, Karl Marx, etc... are so great, heroes, etc.. than why do you all live in capitalist countries, why don&#39;t ya&#39;ll stand by your beliefs and be a man, and go live in Cuba, North Korea, Laos, Vietnam, etc..

Because it&#39;s our revolutionary duty as communists to see that our countries advance to communism. Why would we move to poor socialist or pseudo-socialist countries when it&#39;s here it&#39;ll happen? It will&#33; :)


and i of course live with my parents who are immigrants

Let me guess, from Cuba? :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Communism=Utopia]

wow lazar lol, this isn&#39;t a contest to write the damn bible, lol

anyways, thanks for taking the time to anwsering some stuff, and making them clear.

1. everything will be free under communism
2.america isn&#39;t a democracy
3.human nature
4.peole choose whatever job they want


1. so everything is going to be free under communism, don&#39;t you think this is going to create just like point 4 a disorder (unless there are restrictions)?? so how will we consume? by our demands? or by the demands imposed by society (or someone behind it all conducting it)...so lets say i want to go buy some ribs at the meat market, and im throwing a party, and i want to buy more meat than usual, will i be allowed? or under communism will i have the little red book were it tells me how much i have to consume during a 1 month period? i mean i hope you take this into account, that some people are going to want things more than others, and this is how i can prove to you human nature, i mean its only obvious that you and i are differemt you think communism works i dont, you want things that i dont etc.. etc..

2. so america is not a democracy? ok? lets see, we as people are represented by "local" than "state" representatives chosen by ourselves in the local state and federal level&#33;&#33; we have separation of powers, we have the bill of rights, we can make amendments as citizens, if there is a more democratic country on earth than us that would be wonderful to know, i would more than gladly go live there...and if we are not a democracy tell me what is? (ohh you dont have democracy in your workplace&#33;&#33; well, i can choose to make my own work, or i can choose to leave my workplace, will i be able to do that under communism?)

3. human nature, how can you possibly believe that a community , even a freaking world wide society would work together , when you see the problems facing the world today, even if communism would happen, its gonna have to wait for either mass genocide or 3/4 of the world&#39;s population&#39;s extinction....i mean communism is going to have to be a choice of the society right? because if it is a choice implemented on society by a "force", than this is what you guys would call the Marxism-Lenism...i mean like i said communism would have to be a worldwide effort by the population of the world to "cooperate" for it to happen, and frankly like i said its gonna have to happen either by mass genocide, or 3/4 of the world population wiped out, because you can&#39;t possibly think that the rich are gonna give up their riches that easily, and you can&#39;t possibly expect for the jews, muslims, christians and the millions of divisions in our society to work together, i mean this is just common sense, even a person who doesn&#39;t know shit on the issue can deduce this......hence why humans are different, why humans think differently, and why naturally we are selfish....

4. so people are going to be able to choose whatever job they like, and because it is a hobby&#33;&#33; lol, dude please stop using the word hobby as a "work", hobby is not a work, hobby is something you do to entertain yourself, something that fullfills you, a hobby can be to collect stamps, to ride bycicle, list can go on, how is this going to help the society on work? or do you actually believe that people have as a hobby working on factories? or work in general?? if you believe that way than wow i give up you are defenitaly dillusional......and everyone would work on whatever job they desire? are you kidding me, like i said in my first point, this is going to be a major disproportion, i can assure you that the majority of the world is not dumb, you think ohh a lot of people are going to fill in dirty bad jobs because it is their hobby?? hahahahhahaa step out of it man, and the only possible anwser that i can expect you to come up with would be that the community chooses for you what job you do? than i wouldn&#39;t be able to choose the job i desire than? you see this is just a complex theory that can&#39;t work, like i said who would fill in the dirtiest necessary jobs if you can choose whatever job you desired? and also would i be able to change jobs if i wanted to?

i just think that even though sure it would be classless, this will create yet another problem of discontentment in society, for example:

say i work on the marina, with a boat that did trips around the bay with tourists, and people pass by and say to themselves, look at this guy, he works in a damn boat not doing nothing yet he gets the same things as me&#33;&#33; << i think this would be the biggest sentiment in communism....

thank you

[Red Leader]

so everything is going to be free under communism, don&#39;t you think this is going to create just like point 4 a disorder (unless there are restrictions)?? so how will we consume? by our demands? or by the demands imposed by society (or someone behind it all conducting it)...so lets say i want to go buy some ribs at the meat market, and im throwing a party, and i want to buy more meat than usual, will i be allowed? or under communism will i have the little red book were it tells me how much i have to consume during a 1 month period? i mean i hope you take this into account, that some people are going to want things more than others, and this is how i can prove to you human nature, i mean its only obvious that you and i are differemt you think communism works i dont, you want things that i dont etc.. etc..


There wont be any "consuming". People will just use things, no question. Stop focusing on previous "socialist" states. There arent supposed to be any leaders or figure heads telling u what to do or not do. If you want meat, youll get meat. AS long as you dont use things to exess, whic people wont because there will be no need for it. You ask if you wil be able to drive a ferrari. Will you really wnat to? Imagine how youll feel if your the only one driving this fancy car, while everyone else gets by jsut fine with a normal one. The need for such luxury will not exist because they are nothing more than status symbols. Big house, nice car, all that is just to show the world that you are partt of the upper class. The point to this will be lost in communism.

Your point about people wanting more things than others, I ask you: is that human nature? Can you prove to us that this is part of human nature? I say its more of social conditioning to think this way. In society now, people want more than others because that is how they are brought up. That is how busnisses get richer, and competition thirves. HOwever, this wont matter in a communist society. People will work for the sake of working, each to thier own abilities, each to thier own needs.


so america is not a democracy? ok? lets see, we as people are represented by "local" than "state" representatives chosen by ourselves in the local state and federal level&#33;&#33; we have separation of powers, we have the bill of rights, we can make amendments as citizens, if there is a more democratic country on earth than us that would be wonderful to know, i would more than gladly go live there...and if we are not a democracy tell me what is? (ohh you dont have democracy in your workplace&#33;&#33; well, i can choose to make my own work, or i can choose to leave my workplace, will i be able to do that under communism?)

Yes, George Bush was elected democraticly. That is why the majority of americans want him out of office, yet ther isnt anything they can do about it for another three year or so. It sure is democratic, in a place where you have to PAY FOR YOUR OWN FUCKING HEALTH? What the hell is that? The most basic neccesity in the world, and you have to pay for it? Yes, there are plenty more democratic places on the earth. Open your fucking eyes. Canada, Australia, France, Swedan, Finland, the list goes on.


human nature, how can you possibly believe that a community , even a freaking world wide society would work together , when you see the problems facing the world today, even if communism would happen, its gonna have to wait for either mass genocide or 3/4 of the world&#39;s population&#39;s extinction....i mean communism is going to have to be a choice of the society right? because if it is a choice implemented on society by a "force", than this is what you guys would call the Marxism-Lenism...i mean like i said communism would have to be a worldwide effort by the population of the world to "cooperate" for it to happen, and frankly like i said its gonna have to happen either by mass genocide, or 3/4 of the world population wiped out, because you can&#39;t possibly think that the rich are gonna give up their riches that easily, and you can&#39;t possibly expect for the jews, muslims, christians and the millions of divisions in our society to work together, i mean this is just common sense, even a person who doesn&#39;t know shit on the issue can deduce this......hence why humans are different, why humans think differently, and why naturally we are selfish....


None of waht you just said has anything to do with human nature. These qualities are a result of human BEHAVIOUR, influenced byt he society they live in. People change. Behaviours change. Plenty of people used to be only focused on money, but as soon as they take a trip to Africa or something, their eyes are opened. Greed, selfishness, lust for power and momey, all can be changed. You can not prove that humans are naturaly selfish. In fact, if you look at the early hunter-gather societies in prehistory, you would see that cooperation exceeds compeition. Think about it. In communist society, you work for society. You are a part of socety. Therefore you directly help yourself as well.


so people are going to be able to choose whatever job they like, and because it is a hobby&#33;&#33; lol, dude please stop using the word hobby as a "work", hobby is not a work, hobby is something you do to entertain yourself, something that fullfills you, a hobby can be to collect stamps, to ride bycicle, list can go on, how is this going to help the society on work? or do you actually believe that people have as a hobby working on factories? or work in general?? if you believe that way than wow i give up you are defenitaly dillusional......and everyone would work on whatever job they desire? are you kidding me, like i said in my first point, this is going to be a major disproportion, i can assure you that the majority of the world is not dumb, you think ohh a lot of people are going to fill in dirty bad jobs because it is their hobby?? hahahahhahaa step out of it man, and the only possible anwser that i can expect you to come up with would be that the community chooses for you what job you do? than i wouldn&#39;t be able to choose the job i desire than? you see this is just a complex theory that can&#39;t work, like i said who would fill in the dirtiest necessary jobs if you can choose whatever job you desired? and also would i be able to change jobs if i wanted to?

Any time you work because you enjoy it, its a hobby. AS long as you get personal satisfaction out of it, then its a hobby. I know many a janitor, garbage man, or any other "lower" jobs, and most seem to enjoy the satisfaction they get out of thier work. As soon as people stop being driven for moneyt, it wont matter what you do. People want to work. People do not want to sit around and do nothing. It may be nice for a while, but in the end, they will, unconsiosly start working. Why do you think millionaires continue to work? Because they enjoy it. Humans do not want to sit around doing nothing. Thats called boredom.

[KC]

so everything is going to be free under communism, don&#39;t you think this is going to create just like point 4 a disorder (unless there are restrictions)??

Of course not.


so how will we consume? by our demands? or by the demands imposed by society (or someone behind it all conducting it)...

Consume however the fuck you want.


so lets say i want to go buy some ribs at the meat market, and im throwing a party, and i want to buy more meat than usual, will i be allowed?

Of course you will be.


or under communism will i have the little red book were it tells me how much i have to consume during a 1 month period?

Nope.


i mean i hope you take this into account, that some people are going to want things more than others, and this is how i can prove to you human nature, i mean its only obvious that you and i are differemt you think communism works i dont, you want things that i dont etc.. etc..

Meaningless drivel.



2. so america is not a democracy? ok? lets see, we as people are represented by "local" than "state" representatives chosen by ourselves in the local state and federal level&#33;&#33; we have separation of powers, we have the bill of rights, we can make amendments as citizens, if there is a more democratic country on earth than us that would be wonderful to know, i would more than gladly go live there...

The United States is a Federal Republic. There are fundamental differences between a Republic and a Democracy.


and if we are not a democracy tell me what is?

What is democracy? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy)


(ohh you dont have democracy in your workplace&#33;&#33; well, i can choose to make my own work, or i can choose to leave my workplace, will i be able to do that under communism?)


Sure.



3. human nature, how can you possibly believe that a community , even a freaking world wide society would work together , when you see the problems facing the world today

Social conditioning.


even if communism would happen, its gonna have to wait for either mass genocide or 3/4 of the world&#39;s population&#39;s extinction....i mean communism is going to have to be a choice of the society right?

Sure, but it will be a choice inevitably made by society. After all, the choice is either that or barbarism. And I&#39;m sure more people would much rather choose communism.


i mean like i said communism would have to be a worldwide effort by the population of the world to "cooperate" for it to happen, and frankly like i said its gonna have to happen either by mass genocide, or 3/4 of the world population wiped out

Nope. Wrong again.


because you can&#39;t possibly think that the rich are gonna give up their riches that easily

Of course not&#33; That is why the proletariat will fight them for it. That is why there will be a revolution.


and you can&#39;t possibly expect for the jews, muslims, christians and the millions of divisions in our society to work together, i mean this is just common sense, even a person who doesn&#39;t know shit on the issue can deduce this......

Uh, what&#39;s stopping them? Of course, in the following years religion will decline on a massive scale.


hence why humans are different, why humans think differently, and why naturally we are selfish....

Again, let&#39;s see you prove that we are "naturally selfish". Let&#39;s see some sources; scientific studies, you know, stuff that makes your argument credible.



4. so people are going to be able to choose whatever job they like, and because it is a hobby&#33;&#33; lol, dude please stop using the word hobby as a "work", hobby is not a work, hobby is something you do to entertain yourself, something that fullfills you,

Work can&#39;t do that?


a hobby can be to collect stamps, to ride bycicle, list can go on, how is this going to help the society on work?

People have different interests. Some people love cars, some people love astronomy, some people love physics, some people love engineering, etc...


or do you actually believe that people have as a hobby working on factories?

Factories will be fully automated.


or work in general??

Well, that&#39;s what hobbies are, isn&#39;t it? People working on something they like.


and everyone would work on whatever job they desire?

Yep.


are you kidding me

Nope.


like i said in my first point, this is going to be a major disproportion, i can assure you that the majority of the world is not dumb

Of course they&#39;re not.


you think ohh a lot of people are going to fill in dirty bad jobs because it is their hobby??

Most "dirty, bad" jobs can be automated, divided up among the people, or even just thrown out as they are unneeded.


the community chooses for you what job you do?

The only way this would happen would be dividing up unwanted jobs, such as taking the trash to the dump or something. However, I would suspect that this would have a more cooperative tone to it, such as everyone getting together and doing it, or groups doing it together. Of course, you wouldn&#39;t be forced to do anything in a communist society, but if you didn&#39;t contribute to society, I&#39;m sure that you would at least be socially ostracized.


than i wouldn&#39;t be able to choose the job i desire than?

Sure you would.


and also would i be able to change jobs if i wanted to?

Yep. It would be easier in communism than in capitalism, actually, because education would be free.



say i work on the marina, with a boat that did trips around the bay with tourists, and people pass by and say to themselves, look at this guy, he works in a damn boat not doing nothing yet he gets the same things as me&#33;&#33; << i think this would be the biggest sentiment in communism....

Not really, as you&#39;re contributing to society.

[ColinH]

Mr. Utopia, I don&#39;t believe you&#39;ve grasped the deterministic nature of Marxist theory. It&#39;s not about everybody suddenly deciding that they&#39;d like to live in a socialist or a communist society or having that society forced upon them, it&#39;s that revolutionary change through open class conflict is an inevitable outcome according to patterns observed throughout history.

Marx was simply a historian who extrapolated the next stage of society in which the proletariat would rule, which is socialism. The bourgeois, as a class, would no longer be in control of the means of production and would eventually cease to be. So if there is only one class remaining, and it runs its own society, than you can easily call it a classless society. Mind you, this is not an overnight "all of the world at once" thing. The change is likely to be spread out over very many years.

[anomaly]

To Communism=Utopia, responding to points 1 through 4:

1. Yes, some people are going to want things more than others. But people also tend to be rational beings. Let&#39;s take your ribs example. In the situation you mentioned, you want more ribs than usual, for a party. Obviously, you will be able to do this without any restrictions in communist society. But, if you continually take more ribs than neccesary, that would be illogical. When you store so many, they will go bad&#33; So, why take so many ribs that they will go bad, when you could just take however many ribs you want every day.

This is comparable to the spending habits of the rich in capitalist society. These people certainly could afford to buy out an entire Wal-Mart, and take all that food home. But, funny thing, they don&#39;t do this&#33;

Consumption habits for goods other than food are equally logical. Why would one person ever take 500 cars, when they only need 2 or 3? These wild theories of human over-consumption just don&#39;t make any sense, and do not match what we see humans actually do.


2. Speaking politically, I&#39;d say the representational systems of Europe are more democratic than the winner-take-all system of the United States. Speaking economically, Europe is just as despotic as the US, and, indeed, all the world. Capitalism neccesarily is tyranny. Look at any major firm in the world, and you will see that it is operated by either one person or a small group of people, with rigid hierarchy.

In communism, we&#39;d either use demarchy (random selection of representatives) or direct democracy, whichever is practical for the commune in question. Also in communism, not only will you get to choose to make your own work, or leave yourworkplace, but you can work anywhere you want to, or not work at all. This leads to the criticism that people will not work if they do not have to. 2 arguments against this: 1) if people do not work for long periods of time, they tend to get very bored, and 2) people tend to enjoy suriviving; if no one works, no one survives. Therefore, people will work.


3. We don&#39;t expect the &#39;rich to give up their riches&#39;. We plan to overthrow the bourgeoisie, overthrow the rich. But, the people doing this will not be peasants led by a despotic party (that is Marxism-Leninism), but it will be the proletariat. The &#39;problems&#39; you mention are mainly caused by capitalism. Most wars are due to the expanding market (exibit A-Iraq). Religion is also a consequence of capitalism. Because people&#39;s lives are rather unfulfilling and, frankly, pretty shitty, they tend to turn to the sky and talk to their superman in the sky rather than deal with actual issues on earth. But, as socioeconomic forces advance, so too advances all of society, including customs, mores, norms, and superstition. Superstition is disappearing in Europe, the area which has been capitalist for the longest period of time. Because of anomalies in the history of the United States (our nation was begun, after all, by Puritan outcastes&#33;), the US might just take a little longer to develop. But, it will happen. Nothing is so static as you&#39;d prefer.


4. Work will become a hobby. Most factories will be automated and mechanized, so we can eliminate factory work as a hobby. But, yes, some people are interested in engineering, and robots, so these people will be quite interested in maintaining these mechanized factories. Some people are interested in writing, in physics, in astronomy, in biology, in politics, in agriculture, in mathematics, in reading, in philosophy, in chemistry, etc. etc. It is only logical to deduce that people will engage in activites in which they are interested.

Since your entire argument is essentially against those &#39;dirty jobs&#39;, you really have no point. True, in the lower stage of communist society, some dirty jobs might still exist. If this is the case, these jobs can either be done collectively by the commune (to do it faster), or the people who do these dirty jobs can be placed at the &#39;front of the line&#39; for goods not readily available. Not to confuse you, in the higher stage of society, supply and demand will become superfluous, so we needn&#39;t then concern ourselves with any of the above.


Whatever job you did in communist society, why the hell would people be angry about the same socialized goods being available to you as are available to them? Remember, communism is not where everybody gets the same goods, but, rather, this slogan: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

[Communism=Utopia]

Lazar if you keep anwsering my question in: of course not, this will not happen, yes you will, and so on, than whats the point of this conversation? i can tell you yes there will be alien life contact in the fute, no there will be no conflict, and so on, get what i mean? communism is a theory, so how can you explain the reasoning on all of your short anwsers to my questions in your previous post? your talking as if you have gone to the supposed future and see how communsim works and come backed to present day and speak to me 100% sure

and about human nature, gosh i give up, click my name , and when you see my profile you will see a large picture, if you dont get it there you will never get it and its pointless for me to keep up...

"say i work on the marina, with a boat that did trips around the bay with tourists, and people pass by and say to themselves, look at this guy, he works in a damn boat not doing nothing yet he gets the same things as me&#33;&#33; << i think this would be the biggest sentiment in communism....



Not really, as you&#39;re contributing to society"

ohh really, so jelousy one of the most natural of human emotions won&#39;t exist anymore lol....you think that because there is a drastic economic change, or government change that human emotions will be altered? what do you think this is Star Trek?


"QUOTE
they are not human&#33;&#33; they are HOMOSAPIENS&#33;&#33; mad.gif



They&#39;re human."

please tell me that you do know that homosapiens are humans, please tell me you know that lol

about the american indians, do you know why the society you guys said was like communism happened, because like i said they had no contact with other cultures, like europeans, asians, africans etc... if you look at the ancient civilizations that did have interaction whith eachother, there is no sign of such societies....

and one more thing you guys say that there wont be a necessity to want more things? and that you want me to prove that this is part of human nature, well i guess you dont know who alexander the great , ceasar, napoleon, hitler, the spanish empire , the british empire, mongol empire, you dont know who all these were? expansion, control, selfishness, me me me this are human emotions that are natural, and social change will not change them since its FUCKIN natural&#33;&#33; and it has existed all through history, and therefore communsim will not happen .....

[Communism=Utopia]

"I&#39;d say the representational systems of Europe are more democratic than the winner-take-all system of the United States"

WHAT&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; :o are you kidding me&#33;&#33; WINNER TAKE ALL&#33;&#33;&#33; ahahhahahahah god you surely know nothing about america , your lucky i pitty you, but regardless, im sorry im gonna have to rip you appart.....

first of all do you even know what gridlock is? obviously not, do you even know what winner take all is? obviously not.....

for example, US vs Britain....
in Britain the Labor Party gets for example 43% of the votes, and they get like 60% of the seats in Parliament, their system is made to actually favor the winner, what do you think the other parties get? maybe one gets 40 the other 20 get what i mean? probably not because you dont know shit about it

and in america, the government is divided in houses, the legislative, executive etc. i can be the president of america, be democratic, but 1 house is republican and the other democrat, this creates gridlock, and frankly i dont understand how this can be a winner take all system?? please shut your mouth

"Capitalism neccesarily is tyranny. Look at any major firm in the world, and you will see that it is operated by either one person or a small group of people, with rigid hierarchy. "

did you know that McDonalds is public, and most major companies in the US go public? you dont even know what that is hehehe


in contrast to what you said, capitalism is not the cause of most of the world&#39;s problems, religon is, and religon has been what has divided us through centuries, it is religion that is the root of our current conflicts in the world, and it has been like this all throughout history.. and how can religion be a consequence of capitalism? omg, please explain this&#33;&#33; AHAHAHAHAHHAA :lol: jesus, mohammed, buddah, they were all driven by capitalism right hehehehehehe

[ColinH]

and about human nature, gosh i give up, click my name , and when you see my profile you will see a large picture, if you dont get it there you will never get it and its pointless for me to keep up...

I looked at it. Since the pen is personal property I don&#39;t see how it is relevant. Even if it was "Cool house. Can I have it?" "No." it still wouldn&#39;t apply. Cute though.

[Red Leader]

Do you even read people&#39;s posts? You just continually repeat the same shit, which have already been dealt with by previous posts.

As for your bit about America being the best emocracy in the world, lets zoom in a bit on Canada, the country i currently reside in. Canada, unlike the states, has a multi party system. Meaning you can vote for any of the many parties running that you want, not just a right wing fundamentalsit vs. a less extreme version of him. In canada, you have a choice to vote for a party that will represent the population equally. (called rep by pop). Although that we are still have first past the post, we are not forced to pick between two virtually identical policies. AS well, we enjoy a benifit known as Universal Health care, the most democratic policy of them all. We dont need to pay to see a docter, we can just flip out a fancy red and white card and get taken care of for free. Also, our constitution allows a heck of a lot more freedoms than america. Including press, speech, and the right to marry whoever the fuck you want, regardless of sex.

AS for the corelation between religion and capitalism thing (which is a whole other debate, but ill give you the benifit of the doubt, although i suggest if u want to debate it in more detail, start a new thread), think way way back, like middle ages. The main thing that controlled society was undoubtably religion. The reason for expansion of these religons had nothing to do with the actual doctrines of the religon, but fell back on the same reason countires like america invade countries today. That is, power, land, wealth, and personall gain. When the crown ordered the people to fight the muslums in the name of God during the Crusades, this wasn&#39;t in the BIble. it was because they wanted more land to themselves. As the world became more and more secular, these lusts still persisted, so today countries like the US blatently invade places like Iraq for oil, so they can be richer, and have more Capital.

[anomaly]

The cartoon you refer to is rather meaningless. It doesn&#39;t really &#39;prove&#39; anything, other than people don&#39;t like giving things away. And in communism, people won&#39;t &#39;give things away&#39;.

I think you&#39;re still having severe problems understanding historical materialism.

Here&#39;s what redstar2000 writes on the subject. It&#39;s pretty easy to grasp (even for you, probably), and it&#39;s informative.

historical materialism (http://www.redstar2000papers.com/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1082912812&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&)


Ah, I see you&#39;ve responded to my post, in pathetic form, as usual&#33;

Actually, I don&#39;t think you quite grasp European politics. Parties run, and the votes they receive translate proportionally into seats in parliament.

In America, we have leaders run for the presidency (which has shown to clearly hold more power than either the legislative or judicial branches), but it doesn&#39;t matter by what margin they win so long as they win. That is, it is a winner-take-all system. I can&#39;t believe you don&#39;t comprehend this. Have you ever studied political science at all?

Anyway, we can look at the recent German elections compared with the American elections. In Germany, the conservative representative won a majority of votes, so her party holds a majority of seats in the government. Meanwhile, in the US, Bush beat Kerry by a margin of about 1 or 2%, but he doesn&#39;t have to share seats in the government with Kerry. Now, you can argue &#39;but hey, the legislative branch is chosen by the people&#39;. And this is true, but you miss the point that the legislative branch has significantly less power in the US government than does the executive branch. If you don&#39;t believe this, then apparently you&#39;ve never studied 20th century American history at all. In fact, I have an article at school that says this very thing, and it is written by political scientists...just in case you &#39;don&#39;t believe me&#39;.

"1 house is republican and the other democrat"
No, this has never happened in the history of the United States. In any election in the United States, it is a winner-take-all system. Two candidates run for Senate, one beats the other by a 56%-44% margin, but, the one with 56% does not have to share power with the candidate with 46%. That is, it is winner take all. Even in electoral voting, it is winner take all (except in Maine, if I&#39;m not mistaken). California has 54 electoral votes. But, if 28 votes go to one candidate, he automatically gets all 54 votes. That is, our system is not a proportional representational system, but rather a winner-take-all system. So perhaps you should "shut up"&#33; :lol: :lol:

"did you know that McDonalds is public, and most major companies in the US go public"
First of all, McDonalds is not public. I do not own my local McDonalds with the rest of my county. Rather, businesses like McDonalds, Dairy Queen, Burger King, etc. are franchised. That is, one person owns the McDonalds franchise in my country. Another person owns the McDonalds franchise in your county, and so on. So, what we have are many &#39;mini-despots&#39;. Such is capitalism.

The trend in the United States and elsewhere has been towards privatization. In the US, there have been talks of privatizing social security, healthcare, and even the Amtrak rail system. Frankly, you don&#39;t know what you&#39;re talking about.


Religion is consequence of shitty lives. If a person&#39;s life is unfulfilling, they are morel ikely to be religious. During the Black Death in Europe, people grew exceedingly religious, even moreso than they were before. It can be observed, like I said, that religion, along with everything else in society, advances with productive forces. When Christ was around, life was shitty enough for most of his followers that thinking about a fictional &#39;eternal paradise&#39; was much better than thinking about real world problems. In Europe, where capitalism has existed longer, atheism is more prevalent than in America. (however, I never said that Jesus or Mohammed acted because of capitalism. Rather, they acted because of prevailing material reality around them. They lived during a stage of &#39;oriental despotism&#39;, and their followers&#39; lives were rather shitty).

But, religion is nothing when compared to economic forces. For capitalism to survive, the market must continually expand. Hence, first we had colonisation, and now we have globalization. The individual markets for any commodity must expand for profit. Why did we go to Iraq? To free the people? No. Did religion cause it? No. (although religious friction is leading to civil war now). Rather, we went there to secure a resource that may be diminishing. With China, Brazil, India and other developing nations increasing their oil consumption every year, it puts a strain upon oil producers. In addition, Saddam Hussein was in the process of switching from dollars to Euros for trade pursposes. This means that all those petrodollars that go into the US would disappear, which hurts us as far as financing our debt goes.

We can go through history and see that the need for an expanding market is the cause of many conflicts in the world. Guatemala &#39;54. Chile &#39;72. Greece &#39;48. Vietnam about &#39;54 to &#39;74. Korea &#39;50. The list goes on and on and on.

EDIT: Redleader comments upon the system in Canada. That is a proportional representation system, unlike the winner take all in the US.

&#39;Nother EDIT: Ah, you mean McDonalds has &#39;gone public&#39; in that stock can be traded. Yes, but, as grey matter comments, this has no effect upon who manages the business. Like I said, it is divided into franchises...

[CCCPneubauten]

Is some one going to ban or warn this kid for calling blacks and Latinos as "those people" and pretty much calling the whole community "lazy"?

[greymatter]

did you know that McDonalds is public, and most major companies in the US go public? you dont even know what that is hehehe
Do you know what that is? all it means is that stock can be traded on public stock exchanges. In reality, wether a company is public or not makes virtually no difference as to who runs the thing.


in contrast to what you said, capitalism is not the cause of most of the world&#39;s problems, religon is, and religon has been what has divided us through centuries, it is religion that is the root of our current conflicts in the world, and it has been like this all throughout history.. and how can religion be a consequence of capitalism? omg, please explain this&#33;&#33; AHAHAHAHAHHAA laugh.gif jesus, mohammed, buddah, they were all driven by capitalism right hehehehehehe
The stuff you say baffles me, honestly. As though economics has NOTHING to do with the world&#39;s problems.


please shut your mouth

probably not because you dont know shit about it
Lastly, I&#39;d like to ask you to stop writing stupid crap like that. You may be frustrated with some of the things you read here, but you can deal with it in a more constructive manner.

[Don't Change Your Name]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2006, 05:16 PM
in contrast to what you said, capitalism is not the cause of most of the world&#39;s problems, religon is, and religon has been what has divided us through centuries, it is religion that is the root of our current conflicts in the world, and it has been like this all throughout history.. and how can religion be a consequence of capitalism? omg, please explain this&#33;&#33; AHAHAHAHAHHAA :lol: jesus, mohammed, buddah, they were all driven by capitalism right hehehehehehe
I&#39;d try to reply to your "arguments", but I&#39;ve just remembered that some important scientists (such as Dawkins) refuse to debate with creationists because if they do so they&#39;d make creationists look as if they had some kind of "recognition". The same logic should apply when dealing with immature, ignorant teenagers like you. Plus, you wouldn&#39;t understand anyway, at least not yet.

Also, I would give you a couple of warnings for saying such things as "fag", but since I&#39;m a local mod in another forum, I think I&#39;m not allowed to do so. Hopefully somebody else will take care of that.

[Communism=Utopia]

well guys im sorry for saying fag, if i offended you im sorry, i know of the consequences now, i would get banned or warned, so if i refer to these people again i will refer to them as homosexuals, and whoever said that i should get banned for refering to the blacks or hispanics or any group for that matter as "these people", ohh please slavery is over get over it.....

[Communism=Utopia]

anamoly if you still believe that america is a winner take all system, and that a democrat house and another republican house has not existed, how come one of the most prominent issues that always happens in our government is called gridlock, do you know what gridlock is? apparently not...funny how you didn&#39;t address this issue


and about Canada, yes , i agree, Canada is a great country, and i have admited i dont remember if it was in this post, or the one on Cuba? that here in america our health system sucks ass, its one of the things that i strongly object about this country, so i have to agree on that

[Communism=Utopia]

one more thing, i just find it funny, so what if we invaded Iraq for oil? so fucking what? are you guys meaning to tell me that you guys are mother theresa and that you dont do things for your own interest? jesus if that was the case you would all be nobel prize winners......

listen america is not imperialist in the colonial sense, but we sure are imperialist in the economic sense i admit that, but so what? look at it this way, there can only be 1 at the top, not 2, all throughout history there has been someone who is imperialist in one way or another, and thats just how it works, the fact of the matter is that at least we are a lot nicer than everyone previous to us... i just laugh how you guys say , OHHH AMERICA DID THIS BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO GET THAT, so what do you think? that we do things for free? that we do things and expect to not gain something? this is how humans work, even more how governments work.......stop living in a dream world and wake up....because i can bet my left nut that if you were given the chance to have the power of the US you would do the same, and no matter what you all say i know its bullshit.....power, ambition, survival, happiness , the only driving forces of all humans

[Sentinel]

well guys im sorry for saying fag, if i offended you im sorry, i know of the consequences now

You know the consequenses, but you are not sorry&#33; You just don&#39;t want to get banned. What about an explanation why you used the word and why you suddenly "realise" it&#39;s wrong?

Not that it would convince anybody, you&#39;re just being ignorant and deserve to be banned for trolling anyway.


and whoever said that i should get banned for refering to the blacks or hispanics or any group for that matter as "these people", ohh please slavery is over get over it.....

So is, hopefully, soon your short-ass membership on this forum. :angry:

[Communism=Utopia]

sentinel one question, do you idolize Che Guevara?

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2006, 09:29 PM
ohh please slavery is over get over it.....
According to research done by auther Jessica Williams there are 27 million slaves in the world today (2000 est)

[Sentinel]

sentinel one question, do you idolize Che Guevara?

What the fuck does that have to do with anything?
I admire most things he did for the people of latin america, and his passion for communism. But I don&#39;t "idolise" him. He was only a man, as he said as his last words.

And I am aware that he was affected by the machismo of the early 20th century latin american culture, and the homophobia that dominated the globe back then, and still haunts it.

This, however, is the 21st century. That shit is not accepted by the left anymore.

Now, where&#39;s your explanation?

[Capitalist Lawyer]

The purchasing power of the average worker in the industrialized Capitalist countries have been steadily declining for years. A typical factory worker use to be able to support a family of four quite comfortably with his single wage. This is no longer true as the industrial heartland of the North America has been hollowed out through offshoring and asset stripping.

Except for the simple fact that net worth has been rising.

[Communism=Utopia]

what is wrong with you calm your ass down&#33;&#33; well the fact is that he was a homophobe that is why i just find it ironic that you get so offended my me using the world fag, yet you admire a man who was a homophobe , who helped create a homophobic government and who was best buddies with a man known as Fidel Castro who is an obvious homophobe as well...

and if you believe this is bullshit i suggest you do some research, and why dont you read this article: http://www.slate.com/id/2107100


Additives Free, so there are 27 million slaves in the world? wow, so whats the UN good for than? whats the Human Rights Organization good for than? jesus..anyways, what i was refering to was here in America, where for example black people turn everything into a racial issue, and i know this because i live here in America, for example the most recent here, was a black politician who was accused of corruption and extortion and other countless things, so he was schedlued to be tried, and he killed himslef in the lobby of the newspaper who had been printing the articles concerning him, anyways the black population turned out into the streets in protest claiming that they were discriminating against him....

[red team]

1. so everything is going to be free under communism, don&#39;t you think this is going to create just like point 4 a disorder (unless there are restrictions)?? so how will we consume? by our demands? or by the demands imposed by society (or someone behind it all conducting it)...so lets say i want to go buy some ribs at the meat market, and im throwing a party, and i want to buy more meat than usual, will i be allowed? or under communism will i have the little red book were it tells me how much i have to consume during a 1 month period? i mean i hope you take this into account, that some people are going to want things more than others, and this is how i can prove to you human nature, i mean its only obvious that you and i are differemt you think communism works i dont, you want things that i dont etc.. etc..


Assuming there will be an environment of abundance which is not an unreasonable assumption given that the productive power of technology has been steadily increasing, a buffet system would work best under the situation you&#39;ve described. You consume as much as you want for the cost required for making the products, but you pay a penalty for wasting goods you can&#39;t consume while hoarding is disallowed, so you won&#39;t be able to have an amount of goods in excess of what you could possibly consume. People will simply have the right to buy back anything that you&#39;ve hoarded and since the price of a product is fixed to cost in production, you won&#39;t be able to price gouge.


2. so america is not a democracy? ok? lets see, we as people are represented by "local" than "state" representatives chosen by ourselves in the local state and federal level&#33;&#33; we have separation of powers, we have the bill of rights, we can make amendments as citizens, if there is a more democratic country on earth than us that would be wonderful to know, i would more than gladly go live there...and if we are not a democracy tell me what is? (ohh you dont have democracy in your workplace&#33;&#33; well, i can choose to make my own work, or i can choose to leave my workplace, will i be able to do that under communism?)


It&#39;s a representative system of government, but how effective is it in implementing or defending popular interests? Furthermore, in this economic system who pays for their election campaigns and who&#39;s interests do they need to respond to after they&#39;ve been elected? Also, the most important question of all, even if you wanted to is it possible to enact any changes that would last if the economic system is a one based on profit and debt accumulation? A democratic political system becomes irrelevant and ineffective if the economic system is non-democratic by favouring the people with ownership of the most resources.

If Communism is defined as a system of political democracy and a non-commodity economic system where the price of goods doesn&#39;t fluctuate, but is fixed to cost of production then sure you can. You can do whatever you want even organize a production unit, but you just won&#39;t be able to take the proceeds of the production unit. Which makes sense because most work right now is not manual in nature anyway, so you actually produce in excess of your own labour by taking advantage of working with machines and I don&#39;t see why the pace of mechanization of automation won&#39;t increase in the future. Your output is already dissociated from your manual labour input given that you work with technology so it doesn&#39;t make sense to say you deserve all the proceeds of your labour when your labour could just as easily be replaced with anybody else&#39;s with no significant decrease in corresponding output. For example, a physically fit worker could just as easily be replaced with a fat slob if all the job involves is pushing buttons to operate machinery. If you oppose this then you&#39;re simply favoring personal hoarding of wealth through artificial labour scarcity.


3. human nature, how can you possibly believe that a community , even a freaking world wide society would work together , when you see the problems facing the world today, even if communism would happen, its gonna have to wait for either mass genocide or 3/4 of the world&#39;s population&#39;s extinction....i mean communism is going to have to be a choice of the society right? because if it is a choice implemented on society by a "force", than this is what you guys would call the Marxism-Lenism...i mean like i said communism would have to be a worldwide effort by the population of the world to "cooperate" for it to happen, and frankly like i said its gonna have to happen either by mass genocide, or 3/4 of the world population wiped out, because you can&#39;t possibly think that the rich are gonna give up their riches that easily, and you can&#39;t possibly expect for the jews, muslims, christians and the millions of divisions in our society to work together, i mean this is just common sense, even a person who doesn&#39;t know shit on the issue can deduce this......hence why humans are different, why humans think differently, and why naturally we are selfish....


You may be right on that one. But the problem with this is that violent conflict with groups of unthinking, irrational idiots tend to spill over with collateral damage on the side of rational people who know how to organize society better, so it would be our own interest in not having these violent conflicts between groups of idiots in the first place or take advantage of the violent conflict to turn the tide against the egotistical powermongers who are leading it.


4. so people are going to be able to choose whatever job they like, and because it is a hobby&#33;&#33; lol, dude please stop using the word hobby as a "work", hobby is not a work, hobby is something you do to entertain yourself, something that fullfills you, a hobby can be to collect stamps, to ride bycicle, list can go on, how is this going to help the society on work? or do you actually believe that people have as a hobby working on factories? or work in general?? if you believe that way than wow i give up you are defenitaly dillusional......and everyone would work on whatever job they desire? are you kidding me, like i said in my first point, this is going to be a major disproportion, i can assure you that the majority of the world is not dumb, you think ohh a lot of people are going to fill in dirty bad jobs because it is their hobby?? hahahahhahaa step out of it man, and the only possible anwser that i can expect you to come up with would be that the community chooses for you what job you do? than i wouldn&#39;t be able to choose the job i desire than? you see this is just a complex theory that can&#39;t work, like i said who would fill in the dirtiest necessary jobs if you can choose whatever job you desired? and also would i be able to change jobs if i wanted to?


A lot of people enjoy using the ingenuity in solving technical problems. Boring, dirty, dangerous, labour-intensive work that is required today is steadily being solved by applying human ingenuity in automating such tasks. As more labour-intensive jobs are automated, people will simply take up technical or creative fields so they won&#39;t be bored out of their skulls. The most famous engineers and scientists that you read about in library books never hoarded their inventions or discoveries. Is this a coincidence or is this another part of human nature that you&#39;ve overlooked?


say i work on the marina, with a boat that did trips around the bay with tourists, and people pass by and say to themselves, look at this guy, he works in a damn boat not doing nothing yet he gets the same things as me&#33;&#33; << i think this would be the biggest sentiment in communism....


But because everybody else is engaged in "work" they enjoy doing in the first place instead of the situation as with most "work" today which is really unnecessary make-work if you think about it, then nobody would care that you are enjoying your work and they aren&#39;t because that situation wouldn&#39;t exist.

[CCCPneubauten]

Communism=Utopia...I doubt your story of the black political leader...

If you lived the way some of us do then you&#39;d know what it&#39;s like, but you don&#39;t...you&#39;re pampered and you are scared to put yourself in anothers shoes.

Stop calling blacks "those people" and that we are all "lazy" you are nothing but a racist.

"wow, so whats the UN good for than?"
A world government...that&#39;s the POINT of it, you have failed to understand that.

"Human Rights Organization good for than?"
Once again, they try their best, but many of the rich in the free markets of Africa WANT their slaves, and will fight to keep them...slaves are a natural part of a free market...it is my "ecnomic right" to ensalve someone to make a buck in your land.


...You might have a hard time finding Che using the word "fag" in the way you did...also Latin America (As already explained) is a "macho" area, it has been for quite some time...

Now in the US culture it isn&#39;t wanted or accepted...it is a sick word when used on the context you did.

[red team]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 5 2006, 10:10 PM

The purchasing power of the average worker in the industrialized Capitalist countries have been steadily declining for years. A typical factory worker use to be able to support a family of four quite comfortably with his single wage. This is no longer true as the industrial heartland of the North America has been hollowed out through offshoring and asset stripping.

Except for the simple fact that net worth has been rising.
Net worth is not an accurate measure of economic growth. It only measures the accumulated assets of people and it doesn&#39;t do a good job at this either. It can easily be skewed to look better than it really is by not taking into account the consumer debt accrued for accumulating the net worth. Furthermore, you also have to specify what type of average you are using for your measurement of net worth. A mean average means nothing as it takes an average of a handful of billionaires along with the rest of the population.

[Capitalist Lawyer]

Net worth is not an accurate measure of economic growth. It only measures the accumulated assets of people and it doesn&#39;t do a good job at this either. It can easily be skewed to look better than it really is by not taking into account the consumer debt accrued for accumulating the net worth. Furthermore, you also have to specify what type of average you are using for your measurement of net worth. A mean average means nothing as it takes an average of a handful of billionaires along with the rest of the population.

Thanks for clearly illustrating that you don&#39;t understand what "net" means.

If you look at the last few years I think there have been an increase of the number of people that are less well off. People not being able to pay for healthinsurance etc.

However if you look at the living standards 50 years ago and compare with now you could not possably think we are worse of.

When I grew up, not that many years ago, we had good solid food 5 days a week, a treat on Saturday and a good old fashioned Sunday dinner.

Now we eat steak, filet and what not every day of the week. We have better houses, better cars, we have toys up the ...

At an age of 40 most have paid down the house, the cabin at the mountain and spend a lot of money on luxery items.

I just don&#39;t see how you communists say that things are "getting worse" for working people.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

its getting worse because everyone is turning rich, and remember, THEY ARE THE WORKING POOR CLASS&#33;&#33; lmao

[Gradualist Fool]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 03:46 AM
well like Voltair once said, "I disagree completely with what you say, but i will defend &#39;till death your right to say so"....anyways, we dont live in a "totalitarian" country, so we can all express our views, although this site works (to no surprise, lol, as a totalitarian governement) so i can express my views in only this forum...


i just want to introduce myself, well im american, and of course i oppose the views of probably everyone in this site, but i think its interesting the ongoing political discussion of the 20th century, democracy/capitalism vs. totalitarian/commusim, that is why i joined, i have been to countries like Cuba and China, and actually experienced first hand the situation in each country, and trust me guys im no "ignorant american" , ok, and i did not spend my times in resort vacations, i actually have lived in each country, in both the countryside and in the cities....

anyways, i just find some things funny when you argue with a Che/Communist/Socialist/Anti-American/Anti-Capitalist person,


first, when i cite something, you guys always say, "OHH ITS PROPAGANDA",hahahahhaha
i find that funny because i can&#39;t believe that you guys mean to tell me that propaganda doesn&#39;t exist in countries like Cuba or the ex USSR and North Korea and Vietnam and other communsit/totalitarian couintries?or do you think that people in these country can actually speak their minds?? lmao these people have no access to other countries newspapers...i mean its obvious that the only newspapers, for example in Cuba, Granma, its all controlled by government, and if you think that its the bare truth what they say there, than wow, where have you been living?

another thing, i also find it rediculously funny, when you guys talk about America, and some country who is our ally, and you guys say: "OHH THEY ARE THE PUPPETS OF AMERICA", lmao, have you guys even heard of the Iron Curtain? or do you guys mean to say that pretty much the whole of Eastern Europe weren&#39;t puppets of the USSR?? Cuba, North Korea, Laos, Vietnam, etc.. these were not puppets of the USSR right? lmao....

anyways, like i said, i respect what you guys say, and im not trying to convice anyone, and when i see something that is true, i will admit it, there are many wrong things with our American government, and things that we have done, but please give credit where it is due, and accept when something is wrong or right...

thank you
Making posts about the restrictions is against the rules.

I find their means of moderating rather annoying as well, but it is their property and so, it is their right to do with it as they wish.

Because of that, and because you just broke what&#39;s really one of the ONLY rules in this forum, don&#39;t go crying to anyone when they ban you.

[ColinH]

Originally posted by Oh&#045;Dae&#045;[email protected] 8 2006, 12:03 PM
its getting worse because everyone is turning rich, and remember, THEY ARE THE WORKING POOR CLASS&#33;&#33; lmao
So household incomes for the working class are rising at a greater rate than inflation?

Personal debt isn&#39;t skyrocketing?

Poverty levels are on their way down?

[Oh-Dae-Su]

did you know that the poorest person in the United States would be considered a Millionare in probably every country of Africa, most of Latin America, Asia? if you think this is bull, tell me when a poor guy in Africa or Asia or Latin America can beg in the streets and get 20 bucks or more? 20 bucks is probably more than the average African family makes in a week.

[Gradualist Fool]

Originally posted by Oh&#045;Dae&#045;[email protected] 9 2006, 01:13 AM
did you know that the poorest person in the United States would be considered a Millionare in probably every country of Africa, most of Latin America, Asia? if you think this is bull, tell me when a poor guy in Africa or Asia or Latin America can beg in the streets and get 20 bucks or more? 20 bucks is probably more than the average African family makes in a week.
There are homeless people on the streets in America that have no property -- Literally none.

And you can&#39;t have less than nothing. You&#39;re totally misconstruing the facts. Yes, capitalism has raised the standard of living, but not flawlessly, in that it has left many people behind, has been at the expense of certain others, and by its nature does not provide for all without strict regulation.

Now, I don&#39;t support the fanatical Communism on this forum, but "laissez-faire" capitalism is just as much of a deplorable and oppressive myth -- a myth that when propagated and implemented becomes real fascism.

[Gradualist Fool]

Ahahahaha. The imbecile was banned. Any second now, he will post with an alternate account, "U COMMY GUYZ BANED ME&#33;&#33;&#33; WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH&#33;&#33;&#33; WAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;"

[Oh-Dae-Su]

Blue Idiot, Communis=Utopia has been banned even before you came into this forum i believe, and he was banned for his last comment on the African Americans. Actually, i think i did hear about the politician he talked about, but well im not going to say anything because i will probably get banned like him lol hehehe

anyways, Blue Dog, you are not capitalist and you don&#39;t support the "fanatical" communist? wtf is that? do you mean Marxist-Leninists? or Maoists? make up your mind?

tell me, what do you suggest is the path for an economic society? i want to hear your enlightining proposition&#33;&#33; PLEASE&#33; :rolleyes:

[Gradualist Fool]

Originally posted by Oh&#045;Dae&#045;[email protected] 9 2006, 01:43 AM
Blue Idiot, Communis=Utopia has been banned even before you came into this forum i believe, and he was banned for his last comment on the African Americans. Actually, i think i did hear about the politician he talked about, but well im not going to say anything because i will probably get banned like him lol hehehe

anyways, Blue Dog, you are not capitalist and you don&#39;t support the "fanatical" communist? wtf is that? do you mean Marxist-Leninists? or Maoists? make up your mind?

tell me, what do you suggest is the path for an economic society? i want to hear your enlightining proposition&#33;&#33; PLEASE&#33; :rolleyes:
Ordoliberalism and MODERATE non-revolutionary Democratic Socialism which establishes a "mixed market" economy, combining capitalist economic efficiency and Socialist compassion.

By their definition, that makes me a right-wing capitalist and they restricted because I made the OBVIOUSLY true comment that Communism is a failure. At the same time, you and most others like you would refer to me as a Socialist. Really, though, I consider myself just a Liberal, because I tend to side mostly with other Liberals, see classical and modern Liberals as generally good intellectual role models, though I am a very moderate Liberal on a great deal of issues.

And I just don&#39;t see how "Classical" and "Modern" Liberalism are any different. Modern Liberalism (in America, at least) is for the most part Democratic Socialism, but that in no way means it isn&#39;t the rightful heir to Liberalism. Classical Liberalism, the way it was, was by its nature just prepared to spring into Democratic Socialism the same way that Marxism sprang into Anarchism.

[KC]

Ordoliberalism and MODERATE non-revolutionary Democratic Socialism which establishes a "mixed market" economy, combining capitalist economic efficiency and Socialist compassion.

Everything in moderation, eh? :lol:



And I just don&#39;t see how "Classical" and "Modern" Liberalism are any different.

Well, you see, "Classical" Liberalism is laissez-faire, which has its origins in the physiocrats and came to fruition through Adam Smith.

[Gradualist Fool]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 02:02 AM


Ordoliberalism and MODERATE non-revolutionary Democratic Socialism which establishes a "mixed market" economy, combining capitalist economic efficiency and Socialist compassion.

Everything in moderation, eh? :lol:



And I just don&#39;t see how "Classical" and "Modern" Liberalism are any different.

Well, you see, "Classical" Liberalism is laissez-faire, which has its origins in the physiocrats and came to fruition through Adam Smith.
There is no such thing as a "transitional dictatorship."

And Anarchism is chaos.

The only logical alternative is a moderate and democratic approach. I know, it doesn&#39;t have the same kind of utopian ideal as "revolution" and total equality. There isn&#39;t much of a war cry for mainstream democratic socialism. But it will actually get things done more than setting cars on fire and putting forth erroneous arguments about economics which no one, not the proletarian or the bourgoisie, will listen to. The extremists on this forum only embolden all people, including the lower and middle class, to believe in the lie that is laissez-faire capitalism, which is just as oppressive as capitalism. When people come into contact with such ridiculous and insane fanatics, their natural reaction is to shift further to the right, from moderate Liberalism and Conservatism to Capitalist Fascism.

[Oh-Dae-Su]

which establishes a "mixed market" economy, combining capitalist economic efficiency and Socialist compassion.

where do you live again? because last time i checked the United States was a mixed economic system, in which it combined capitalist and socialist ideals.


By their definition, that makes me a right-wing capitalist and they restricted because I made the OBVIOUSLY true comment that Communism is a failure. At the same time, you and most others like you would refer to me as a Socialist. Really, though, I consider myself just a Liberal, because I tend to side mostly with other Liberals, see classical and modern Liberals as generally good intellectual role models, though I am a very moderate Liberal on a great deal of issues.

how do you know that Communism is a failure when true communism hasn&#39;t even existed? (although i agree that it is an utopian idea, and very likely that it will never occur) but anyway why would we refer to you as a Socialist? do you know what a Socialist is? so American&#39;s are socialist?


Well, you see, "Classical" Liberalism is laissez-faire, which has its origins in the physiocrats and came to fruition through Adam Smith.

does he even know that true laissez-faire like true communism has never existed?

[anomaly]

"socialist ideals"

Oh, Oh-Dae-Su, how silly you are&#33; Certainly you, with your advanced capitalist intellect, know the folly of your clever statement&#33;

The socialism of which Marx spoke was based on a materialist, not idealist, theory of history. And what is your theory of history?



"And Anarchism is chaos"

BlueLiberal, where do you get your information? Anarchism is chaos? Surely you jest&#33; Anarchism is not chaos, but rather it is a stateless, classless, free society.

Anarchism=no rulers, not no rules.


Perhaps before you cappies enlighten us, you should peruse around this site just a little bit and learn about the ideas on which you attempt to comment.

[KC]

does he even know that true laissez-faire like true communism has never existed?


I highly doubt it. He doesn&#39;t even know what liberalism is.

[Capitalist Lawyer]

Thanks for clearly illustrating that you don&#39;t understand what "net" means.

If you look at the last few years I think there have been an increase of the number of people that are less well off. People not being able to pay for healthinsurance etc.

However if you look at the living standards 50 years ago and compare with now you could not possably think we are worse of.

When I grew up, not that many years ago, we had good solid food 5 days a week, a treat on Saturday and a good old fashioned Sunday dinner.

Now we eat steak, filet and what not every day of the week. We have better houses, better cars, we have toys up the ...

At an age of 40 most have paid down the house, the cabin at the mountain and spend a lot of money on luxery items.

I just don&#39;t see how you communists say that things are "getting worse" for working people.


I&#39;m still waiting for a reply from Red Team.

[red team]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 13 2006, 06:53 PM

Thanks for clearly illustrating that you don&#39;t understand what "net" means.

If you look at the last few years I think there have been an increase of the number of people that are less well off. People not being able to pay for healthinsurance etc.

However if you look at the living standards 50 years ago and compare with now you could not possably think we are worse of.

When I grew up, not that many years ago, we had good solid food 5 days a week, a treat on Saturday and a good old fashioned Sunday dinner.

Now we eat steak, filet and what not every day of the week. We have better houses, better cars, we have toys up the ...

At an age of 40 most have paid down the house, the cabin at the mountain and spend a lot of money on luxery items.

I just don&#39;t see how you communists say that things are "getting worse" for working people.


I&#39;m still waiting for a reply from Red Team.
Anecdotal "evidence" is even less meaningful than statistics, so your anecdotes proves nothing other than for your preference for anecdotes. Having said that, even if your anecdotes are somewhat true of your particular situation it only applies to the upper middle class layer of the population like lawyers. As I have said before net income proves nothing other than the whole population of the country earning more in total income. But, so what? How does wealthy investors and a small layer of professionals that these investors rely on for their services in law, accounting and health affect the average worker? How does Donald Trump, Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, etc... having a banner year in profits and their private lawyers, accountants and doctors getting a pay raise affect workers that have been downsized from the companies intent of maximizing profits for these same investors? Prattling on about net income without also mentioning income distribution is simply dishonest statistical manipulation.

[cyu]

Here&#39;s a direct quote from an article I read today:

The U.S. government&#39;s own data shows an alarmingly high rate of poverty that continues to grow each year under the Bush administration. The data issued by the U.S. Census Bureau said that the nation&#39;s official poverty rate rose from 12.5 percent in 2003 to 12.7 percent in 2004, with the number of people in poverty rising by 1.1 million from 35.9 million to 37 million, which means that one in every eight Americans lives in poverty. Poverty rates in cities such as Detroit, Miami and Newark exceeded 28 percent.

Capitalism sure creates a lot of wealth doesn&#39;t it? Too bad it&#39;s the few that make off with most of it.

[Capitalist Lawyer]

As I have said before net income proves nothing other than the whole population of the country earning more in total income. But, so what? How does wealthy investors and a small layer of professionals that these investors rely on for their services in law, accounting and health affect the average worker? How does Donald Trump, Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, etc... having a banner year in profits and their private lawyers, accountants and doctors getting a pay raise affect workers that have been downsized from the companies intent of maximizing profits for these same investors? Prattling on about net income without also mentioning income distribution is simply dishonest statistical manipulation.


And as I said before... thanks for fully illustrating your lack of understanding of what "net income" means.

[Tungsten]

cya
Cite how they arrived at their definition of poverty.

Capitalism sure creates a lot of wealth doesn&#39;t it? Too bad it&#39;s the few that make off with most of it.
No "system" creates wealth- people do. We live in a system that mostly allows wealth creation and allows it to be kept by those who make it- as opposed to confiscating it and handing it to those who don&#39;t.

[red team]

Please define "making" wealth? I&#39;m sure investment bankers "made" all those billions themselves. :lol: Oh wait, they didn&#39;t. They just took a mandatory tithe from those who actually did.

[Capitalist Lawyer]

Thanks for ignoring my accusations towards you red team. Do you even know what net worth or net income even means?

[red team]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 17 2006, 12:23 AM
Thanks for ignoring my accusations towards you red team. Do you even know what net worth or net income even means?
Please explain what a mean average is. What is a median average? What is purchasing power? What is inflation? After that, we&#39;ll talk.

[Capitalist Lawyer]

You&#39;re not even talking now... so why bother? I mean you FULLY illustrated your ignorance on the term... what more is there to do other than educate yourself and come back when you can speak intelligently on the issue?