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BattleOfTheCowshed
3rd March 2006, 17:02
So, I'm not sure how I feel entirely about this article, but I felt it pertained to a lot of the debates going on recently about Islam, the Danish cartoon controversy, the war on terror, etc. So, please read and discuss!

Credit goes to: http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/print_art...article_id=8373 (http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/print_article.php?article_id=8373)

Marx and religion

What is Karl Marxs best known quote on religion? Many people know that Marx described religion as the opium of the people. But far fewer know the whole quote: Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

A careful examination of Marxs writings on the subject reveals that while he certainly criticised religion, he was equally scathing about liberals who elevated criticism of religion over all other political concerns.

As with so much of Marxs work, to understand his analysis of religion we have to take a closer look at the political struggles he was involved in throughout his life.

Marx was born in Prussia, now part of Germany, in 1818. One defining political struggle during Marxs early career revolved around religion.

Jews in Prussia faced systematic discrimination, with laws determining where they could live and the occupations they could take up. In the 1840s there were raging debates about Jewish emancipation which parallel some of the arguments about Islam and Muslims today.

At the time, Marx was making a name for himself as a radical journalist working on liberal publications. Much of his energy was spent debating with a circle of liberal writers and thinkers known as the Young Hegelians. Prominent among them was Bruno Bauer, who had been one of Marxs tutors at university.

Bauer started off his academic career on the right, but had shifted left politically, becoming increasingly critical of Christianity. In 1842 he was dismissed from his university post in Berlin because of his radical views.

There were good reasons why Bauer and the Young Hegelians criticised Christianity and religion in general. Prussia at the time was still an absolute monarchy with restrictive laws dating from the feudal era, propped up by the stifling ideology of the church.

The liberals in Prussia hankered for the kind of reforms that had come in the wake of the 1789 French Revolution. They were, however, considerably less keen on the messy business of actually having a revolution. Consequently they focused on demanding reforms from the creaking Prussian government in particular parliamentary elections and the separation of church and state.

The Jewish demand for emancipation was part of this wider struggle. Marx, whose Jewish father had converted to Christianity to escape oppression, backed the campaign to scrap the laws that discriminated against Jews.

Liberal atheists

But not all liberals followed suit. In sharp contrast to Marx, Bauer came out against Jewish emancipation, mobilising in his defence a seemingly left wing argument. Many of Bauers comments prefigure the arguments put by some today for downplaying, *ignoring or colluding with Islamophobia.

Bauer argued that religion was the main enemy, and therefore to support Jews demanding emancipation as Jews would be tantamount to capitulating to religion and the special pleading of a religious minority. Jews should first renounce their religion, he insisted, and only then would they deserve the support of liberal atheists.

As long as he is a Jew, the restricted nature which makes him a Jew is bound to triumph over the human nature which should link him as a man with other men, and will separate him from non-Jews, wrote Bauer in one essay on the question.

While this argument superficially seems to treat all religions as equally bad, it was rapidly backed up by another that clarified what was really at stake. In a second essay attacking the Jewish emancipation campaign, Bauer argued that while all religions were equally bad, some were more equal than others.

Specifically, Bauer now claimed that Christianity was in fact superior to Judaism: The Christian has to surmount only one stage, namely, that of his religion, in order to give up religion altogether. The Jew, on the other hand, has to break not only with his Jewish nature, but also with the development towards perfecting his religion, a development which has remained alien to him.

Here the parallels with arguments over Islam today are striking. Liberal secularists often insist that they are against all religion, and have no specific issue with Islam. But the specific religion that most exercises them, the one they hold predominantly responsible for social evils from terrorism through to homophobia, invariably turns out to be Islam.

Marx, who was already rethinking his relationship with the Young Hegelians, responded forcibly to his former mentor Bauer in a polemical essay called On The Jewish Question, published in 1844. Rather than join in the attacks on Jewish backwardness, or issue simpering pleas for tolerance, he turned his guns on the failings of Bauers liberal politics.

First, Marx noted that the restricted political emancipation called for by Bauer effectively, the demand for a secular state was nowhere near enough. In fact, it wouldnt even get rid of religion, which was supposedly Bauers main target. Marx noted that the US constitution was avowedly secular, yet the US was pre-eminently the country of religiosity, teeming with all manner of sects and cults peddling their wares.

Social struggle

More fundamentally, Marx argued that religious faith was primarily an effect, rather than a cause, of a much more general oppression. Focusing on the religious question served to obscure this wider picture, diverting energy away from real social struggle and into sterile theological debate.

Marx also noted that liberals viewed human society as rigidly divided between a public political life and a private civil society. Political reform should be restricted to the former, they claimed, leaving untouched economic arrangements such as private property and wage labour that fell into the category of civil society.

Marx proceeded to tear down this artificial opposition. He explained how the supposedly atheistic demands of the Young Hegelians in fact served to conceal their own quasi-religious assumptions.

Specifically, they believed in a vision of human society composed of atomised private individuals that owned property and were motivated by self interest a kind of Thatcherism before its time that bore no relation to how society actually worked:

The so called rights of man are nothing but the rights of a member of civil society, the rights of egoistic man, of man separated from other men and from the community.

The irony here, as Marx notes, is that Bauer accuses Jews precisely of egoism, of deliberately isolating themselves from society, of being obsessed by money making and trading. Bauer is himself guilty of the sins he accuses Jews of and Judaism acts as a convenient scapegoat for his own political failings.

In contrast to the liberals, Marx called for the radical generalisation of political emancipation into a human emancipation that would revolutionise economic relations and the whole of society, as opposed to merely *tinkering with the nature of the state. And this socialist political project would be based on a consistently materialist understanding of the world, not just an atheistic one.

Marxs essay On The Jewish Question was one of a series of writings through which he settled scores with the political timidity of the Young Hegelians. Soon Marx was to become the revolutionary champion of the working class that he is remembered as today.

Bauer, by contrast, rapidly shifted to the right and later became a cheerleader for the vile anti-Semitism that emerged in Germany in the 1870s an ideology that would eventually lead to the Nazi gas chambers.

We on the left need to rediscover Marxs insights today. Contrary to the claims of pro-war secular liberals, Marx did not consider belief in the free market and the worship of private property to be in any way superior to religious thinking.

And he certainly had no time for those who used opposition to religion as an excuse to scapegoat religious minorities, while simultaneously singing the praises of a capitalist system that leads to poverty, racism and war.

BattleOfTheCowshed
3rd March 2006, 17:03
Also, the 'Lenin's Tomb' blog has a review of this and other articles on the topic that might be of interest to yall:
http://leninology.blogspot.com/2006/03/marxism-religion.html

redstar2000
3rd March 2006, 18:57
This article admits that at the time Marx wrote On the Jewish Question, he was still "in the process" of becoming "a Marxist". He would have been about 26 at the time.

Consider this later attack on the neo-puritans of his day...


Originally posted by Marx+--> (Marx)In the eighteenth century the French aristocracy said: For us, Voltaire; for the people, the mass and the tithes. In the nineteenth century the English aristocracy says: For us, pious phrases; for the people, Christian practice. The classical saint of Christianity mortified his body for the salvation of the souls of the masses; the modern, educated saint mortifies the bodies of the masses for the salvation of his own soul.[/b]

Anti-Church Movement (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1855/06/25.htm) by Karl Marx, Neue Oder-Zeitung, June 28, 1855


Socialist Worker
We on the left need to rediscover Marxs insights today. Contrary to the claims of pro-war secular liberals, Marx did not consider belief in the free market and the worship of private property to be in any way superior to religious thinking.

Well, it's not...but that's not really the point of this article. It's a kind of "watered-down" version of another and much worse article which I will discuss in a later post.

It's this one...

Bolsheviks and Islam: Religious Rights (http://www.socialistreview.org.uk/article.php?articlenumber=8689)

if you want to look at it in advance.

Have something soothing for your stomach handy. :o

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redstar2000
4th March 2006, 03:27
This article is almost like a Stephen King novel...that is, a horror story in which "normal things" are suddenly revealed as monstrous.

All the quotes come from Bolsheviks and Islam: Religious Rights (http://www.socialistreview.org.uk/article.php?articlenumber=8689).


Originally posted by Dave Crouch in December 2003+--> (Dave Crouch in December 2003)But because it understands religion to have roots in oppression and alienation, Marxist political parties don't demand that their members or supporters are atheists too.[/b]

That is, "Marxist political parties" don't have to be and even shouldn't be Marxist at all.

What's "important" is the name of Marx...not his ideas.


Crouch
The Bolshevik leader Leon Trotsky noted in 1923 that in some former colonies as many as 15 percent of CP members were believers in Islam. He called them the 'raw revolutionary recruits who come knocking on our door'. In parts of Central Asia, Muslim membership was as high as 70 percent.

Imagine a "communist" party where "70 percent" of the membership flop on their bellies five times a day facing Mecca.

Note that this doesn't bother Trotsky at all. In fact, he seems to think that was "a good thing".


A parallel court system was created in 1921, with Islamic courts administering justice in accordance with sharia laws. The aim was for people to have a choice between religious and revolutionary justice.

What a great "choice"! :o

Evidently, the Bolsheviks did not allow sharia courts to stone or behead people or cut their hands off -- at least not without approval from Moscow. But flogging goes unmentioned here so presumably was permitted.


As a result, the system of madrassahs - religious schools - was extensive. In 1925 there were 1,500 madrassahs with 45,000 students in the Caucasus state of Dagestan, as opposed to just 183 state schools.

Incredible!!! Having successfully re-conquered the old conquests of the Czarist empire, the Bolsheviks actually managed to make things worse!


At the Baku Congress of the Peoples of the East in September 1920, Russian Bolshevik leaders issued a call for a 'holy war' against Western imperialism. Two years later the Fourth Congress of the Communist International endorsed alliances with pan-Islamism against imperialism.

I can't quarrel with principled opposition to imperialism...but alliances?

With reactionary scum???


Indigenous people were promoted to leading positions in the state and communist parties, and given preference for employment over Russians.

Without regard to communist ideas, of course. The only requirement for those "leading positions in the state and communist parties" was loyalty to Moscow.


From the mid-1920s the Stalinists began planning an all-out attack on Islam under the banner of women's rights. The slogan of the campaign was khudzhum - which means storming or assault.

It's been a while since I've heard something good about Stalin!


The khudzhum entered its mass action phase on 8 March 1927 - International Women's Day. At mass meetings women were called upon to unveil. Small groups of native women came to the podium and threw their veils on bonfires.

Yea JOE! :D

Note that up until that point, the Bolsheviks "had no problem" with the veil...or presumably all the other forms of women's oppression.

It didn't seem to bother either Lenin or Trotsky.

And how do you suppose all these Muslims responded?


Unveiled women were attacked in the street, including ferocious rapes and thousands of killings.

The gang rape and mass murder of women!


But in the early years of the revolution the Bolsheviks were successful at winning Muslims to fight for socialism. We can learn from and be inspired by their achievements.

Yeah, that's quite a "fight for socialism"...defending the right of Muslim males to oppress women and then raping and killing them when they stood up for themselves.

With "socialism" like that, who needs fascism?

This is where "tolerance for religion" inevitably leads!

The article doesn't continue past that point, but I certainly hope Stalin "sent in the tanks!"

I would have! :angry:

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ComradeOm
4th March 2006, 12:42
Bolsheviks and religion. I can only imagine the warm fuzzy feeling you must have right now RedStar.

Although it seems that in this case youre complaint is that the Bolsheviks didnt make full use of the iron fist. I can agree with you on that one, religion is fundamentally reactionary and should be strongly opposed wherever possible. But you see Im saying that right now from a comfortable abstract vantage point. The Bolsheviks in 1917 were far more concerned with the practicals.

You missed the most important point in that piece:
The Russian Revolution of 1917 took place in an empire that was home to 16 million Muslims - some 10 percent of the population.
Id imagine that Lenins To Do list in 1917 could be largely summarised by Survive. Pissing off, or alienating if you like, a good ten percent of the population is generally not conductive to survival. The Bolsheviks could have stormed into the mosques and torn off the veils and they would have promptly been shot, triggering a massive insurrection that Moscow would have simply been unable to deal with.

The Bolsheviks were forced to largely abandon their early promises and ideology in the face of a lot more than the Muslims. Add to the equation the Whites, the Germans, the national groups, the Western Powers and, most importantly, the peasants. In the end it was left to Stalin to wipe out all these troublesome groups from a position of strength.

redstar2000
4th March 2006, 16:23
Originally posted by ComradeOm
Bolsheviks and religion. I can only imagine the warm fuzzy feeling you must have right now RedStar.

To be honest, I was completely unaware of the events recounted in this article...and frankly shocked! :o

Of course it serves as more than ample historical precedent for the SWP's (U.K.) current perspective: suck up to Islam no matter what the cost!

What words are even remotely adequate to describe a so-called "Marxist" party that you don't even have to be a Marxist to join?


You missed the most important point in that piece:
The Russian Revolution of 1917 took place in an empire that was home to 16 million Muslims - some 10 percent of the population.

Yes, that may well be "the most important point" in the article...but not for a reason that Leninists would be comfortable with.

Had Lenin, Trotsky, et.al. understood Marxism, they would have known in advance the total futility of extending "Soviet Power" into the conquered Muslim provinces of the old Czarist empire.

The proper course was to cut them loose and let them go their own way. The young USSR would have been far better off to concentrate its military and political efforts on Poland, Finland and Hungary than on all those hopelessly reactionary pestholes in central Asia.

The "old Bolsheviks" really fucked up by trying to preserve the geographical conquests of the Czars...as if they were a "sacred patrimony" or something.

What they really were was a reservoir of reaction...a cancer of superstition and corruption that possibly played a significant role in the ultimate destruction of the USSR.

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ComradeOm
4th March 2006, 17:36
Originally posted by redstar2000+Mar 4 2006, 04:51 PM--> (redstar2000 @ Mar 4 2006, 04:51 PM)What words are even remotely adequate to describe a so-called "Marxist" party that you don't even have to be a Marxist to join?[/b]
Menshevik :lol:


RedStar
The proper course was to cut them loose and let them go their own way. The young USSR would have been far better off to concentrate its military and political efforts on Poland, Finland and Hungary than on all those hopelessly reactionary pestholes in central Asia.
Which would have promptly led to the dissolution of the entire country. Self defeating really.

Of course its debateable whether the Muslim areas were even any more reactionary than the vast swathes of land dominated by the Russian Orthodox peasants. Should the Bolsheviks have cut them off as well and tried to move forward with a handful of cities in the west?

You and I both know that Lenin was not some religious nut and its hard to imagine any Bolshevik actually imagining that Islam was in any way progressive. But the last thing they needed was another insurrection so they decided to wait. Again, the Bolsheviks were not in a position to put ideals above practicalities.

redstar2000
4th March 2006, 19:20
Originally posted by ComradeOm
Which would have promptly led to the dissolution of the entire country.

Russia was not a "country"...it was an empire.

In fact, it was actually called "a prison of nations". :o

Cutting the Asiatic provinces adrift would have freed more resources for use in the Russian part of Russia as well as more resources to help revolutionaries in Europe...where it's at least possible that some good could have been done.

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BattleOfTheCowshed
7th March 2006, 00:16
Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 06:04 PM
You and I both know that Lenin was not some religious nut and its hard to imagine any Bolshevik actually imagining that Islam was in any way progressive. But the last thing they needed was another insurrection so they decided to wait. Again, the Bolsheviks were not in a position to put ideals above practicalities.
*nods*

Anyways, I have major disagreements with the 'Bolsheviks and Islam' article. Obviously religion is reactionary and should be destroyed, I'm not sure thats the question thats really at issue here. I think the two articles and this subsequent discussion strikes at a core issue: What is the relationship between a worker and the capitalist system under which he lives? and how does that relate to communism? Redstar, you seem to think that due to the fact that most people (including workers) in the Middle East are religious, they are automatically reactionary and anti-communist. This brings up two questions. First off, according to every source I can find (i.e. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism ), the vast majority of American describe themselves as being religious in one sense or another. Would that make communist revolution in the US fundamentally impossible according to you? It seems to me that you have it backward. The way I always understood Marx was that religion was a reflection of the economic system under which society ran. To quote Ch. 1 of Capital:

"The religious world is but the reflex of the real world. And for a society based upon the production of commodities, in which the producers in general enter into social relations with one another by treating their products as commodities and values, whereby they reduce their individual private labour to the standard of homogeneous human labour for such a society, Christianity with its cultus of abstract man, more especially in its bourgeois developments, Protestantism, Deism, &c., is the most fitting form of religion."

This seems to imply to me that most people will automatically identify with religion under a capitalist system, and breaking out of religion will come hand-in-hand with the destruction of capitalism. It seems a bit backwards to expect the average person to completely escape the prevailing ideologies of their society without a change in the system itself. How would they achieve this? Does this then form a completely deterministic model whereby the presence of a revolution is unneccessary? These are the reasons I feel the left should stand by the victims of American imperialism and economic exploitation, no matter what pretenses the right uses to justify it, whether it be anti-religion or "free speech" (interesting that many right-wingers who are fundamentally opposed to freedom of speech suddenly "converted" when the target conveniantly became the enemy of America).

redstar2000
7th March 2006, 07:43
Originally posted by BattleOfTheCowshed
Redstar, you seem to think that due to the fact that most people (including workers) in the Middle East are religious, they are automatically reactionary and anti-communist.

Yes, that seems to be pretty much the case at the present time. :(

Workers who take part in the Iraqi resistance are doing something progressive...but it's "by accident".

There may be progressive secular forces in this or that Muslim country that may or may not be proletarian...but it looks like "small beans" at this point in history.

Maybe 50 years from now things will look better. :)


...the vast majority of Americans describe themselves as being religious in one sense or another. Would that make communist revolution in the US fundamentally impossible according to you?

At this time, yes, communist revolution is self-evidently "fundamentally impossible" in the U.S.

In my opinion, it will take another century for American workers to purge themselves of this reactionary crap and become fully capable of rational self-rule.

What happens when a religious proletariat overthrows a despotism is that the "habits of obedience" reassert themselves and that proletariat inevitably succumbs to new despots...who may be nominally secular but who recreate all the trappings of religion followed by religion itself!


This seems to imply to me that most people will automatically identify with religion under a capitalist system, and breaking out of religion will come hand-in-hand with the destruction of capitalism.

I disagree with your reading of Marx here; I think all he's saying is that Protestant Christianity "meshes" with capitalism...it's the form of religion most useful in and most reflective of post-feudal society.

But even if your interpretation of Marx's words is correct, that doesn't mean he was right about that.

He did "mess up" from time to time.


It seems a bit backwards to expect the average person to completely escape the prevailing ideologies of their society without a change in the system itself.

History suggests that it takes three to five decades for a class to "prepare itself" for a major revolution. In the course of this period, the ideologies of the old regime lose credibility among the masses...in part as a consequence of harsh attacks by conscious revolutionaries.

The hypothetical "average person" comes to perceive the old ideologies as "old-fashioned" and "out-of-date"...which, of course, they are in the process of becoming.

I think this is something that has to happen if a revolution is to actually be a revolution...otherwise, it just turns into a "change of government".

Not worth the bother, really.

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