Who else thinks BUSH's use of religion is awful.

[KRAZYKILLA]

That man George H.W. Bush Jr. makes a mockery of religion and what it stands for. Ambiguously puttting in "pray" and he think's he has God's side? God chooses no sides; the omnipotent omniscient are infused within us all. I hate how he basically pits this as a Christianity V.S. Islam thing. He never DIRECTLY says it but he INDIRECTLY mentions this as the "4th Crusade." This guys is really starting to piss me off. Who else agrees with me?

[Zombie]

mmmm i was thinking the same thing. agreed.
all the 'in God we trust' 'God bless America' God this God that, is just fucking crap. what's next;jesus was american, u say? fuck bush and his holy war :angry:

[KRAZYKILLA]

Jesus would be a modern day communist with a new apostle named Ernesto.

[Zombie]

Amen to that

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

I heard Bush saying how God is on their side and will help them, bla bla bla, etc.

Who the fuck does he think he is to speak in the name of God?!?!?!?!?! I don't believ in God, but this is a short step away from claiming to be omnipotent.

[Tasha]

Lets not forget how crusades were acts of terroism. They were genocidal and they slaughtered innocent people.

[thursday night]

And let's not forget that religion is an enemy of the working-class. It serves only to disunify the people, to feed them lies and half-truths and to work as an agent of the counterrevolutionary forces.

[redstar2000]

Quite right, thursday night!

I disagree with you completely, KRAZYKILLA. I think Bush is using religion precisely as it is designed to be used.

Why not call it a "holy war"? Sounds a lot more respectable than calling it an act of piracy, doesn't it? And wasn't that at the root of all so-called "holy wars"?

I think it absurd, KK, that you suggest a 1st century reforming Jewish rabbi--who explicitly despised non-Jews--would "today" be a "communist". I suggest "Jesus" would more likely be minor cult-leader or professor of religion at a one-building "bible college".

To suggest that Che Guevara would have anything but contempt for a pious fraud like "Jesus" is insulting. Che had many chances in his life to publicly endorse religion had he wished to do so. He never did!

It's easy enough to put words into a dead man's mouth that endorse your personal superstition, KK, since Che is no longer alive to refute your outrageous allegation.

It's also a fucking lie!

:angry:

(Edited by redstar2000 at 8:40 pm on Mar. 20, 2003)

[Kapitan Andrey]

I remember that Dr.Goebbels said:" God, bless our weapons to win!!!"
And Mr.Churchil said when he listened it on the radio:"Turn this thing(radio) off!!! I can't hear this!!! This guy wants God to help them!"

So! Mr.Churchil's speach is useful right now!!!

[YerbaMateJ]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 1:39 am on Mar. 21, 2003
Quite right, thursday night!

I disagree with you completely, KRAZYKILLA. I think Bush is using religion precisely as it is designed to be used.

Why not call it a "holy war"? Sounds a lot more respectable than calling it an act of piracy, doesn't it? And wasn't that at the root of all so-called "holy wars"?

I think it absurd, KK, that you suggest a 1st century reforming Jewish rabbi--who explicitly despised non-Jews--would "today" be a "communist". I suggest "Jesus" would more likely be minor cult-leader or professor of religion at a one-building "bible college".

To suggest that Che Guevara would have anything but contempt for a pious fraud like "Jesus" is insulting. Che had many chances in his life to publicly endorse religion had he wished to do so. He never did!

It's easy enough to put words into a dead man's mouth that endorse your personal superstition, KK, since Che is no longer alive to refute your outrageous allegation.

It's also a fucking lie!

:angry:

(Edited by redstar2000 at 8:40 pm on Mar. 20, 2003)


But Redstar! What about all the miracles? Water to wine! I thought Jesus didn't have any contempt but for the money exchangers who's tables he overturned in the temple! I thought the real Jesus was all about love! Well? Wasn't he? He wasn't a revolutionary in his own time? Anti-materialism? Anti-religious?

Yes, I admit. I am setting myself up for you to rip me a new asshole. Rip away Red! I can't wait! ;) ;) ;)

Che vive! (especially in his hair locks possessed by the Bolivian nuns!!!) :)

[Beccie]

The problem is, YerbaMateJ, that no one knows anything about the real Jesus. The first gospel (arguably mark) was most likely written 50 years after the real Jesus (even if the were such a person) died. The gospels were written on the assumption that Jesus was the Son of God and therefore cannot be taken as the literal truth. They are merely human perspectives written for certain theological purposes.

The “water into wine” story can only be found in one of the gospels (John) and is probably not historically accurate.

The Jesus that is preached in the bible was about love, justice and peace. He was revolutionary but he wasn’t anti-religious. He was anti-religious elite who, in his opinion, had corrupted the Jewish faith. Jesus fought to change the understanding of what it meant to be faithful.

Redstar:

How do you know that Jesus was a pious fraud? Religion is definitely corrupted as Thursday night pointed out but we don’t know anything about the historical Jesus. He might have been someone Che admired.

[Uhuru na Umoja]

I don't think anyone can know exactly how Jesus would react in the modern world. Yes he was a Jew, but he was all form changing and reforming the religion. This debate reminds me of the song 'Jesus was a Capricorn' by Kris Kristofferson, of which the initial lines are:

Jesus was a Capricorn, he ate organic foods.
He believed in love and peace and never wore no shoes.
Long hair, beard and sandals and a funky bunch of friends.
Reckon they'd just nail him up if He come down again.

[Uhuru na Umoja]

I don't think anyone can know exactly how Jesus would react in the modern world. Yes he was a Jew, but he was all form changing and reforming the religion. This debate reminds me of the song 'Jesus was a Capricorn' by Kris Kristofferson, of which the initial lines are:

Jesus was a Capricorn, he ate organic foods.
He believed in love and peace and never wore no shoes.
Long hair, beard and sandals and a funky bunch of friends.
Reckon they'd just nail him up if He come down again.

[redstar2000]

Commie01 is right, of course. We have little idea of what Yeshuah ben Yosif really taught. Paulos of Tarsus is the only remotely contemporary source...and he was more interested in inventing "Christianity" than he was in what Yeshuah actually had to say.

I suggested that he was a "pious fraud" simply because that was a good way to make a living in Roman-occupied Palestine...certainly a lot easier than carpentry. There were lots of prophets and messiahs in that era...not to mention magicians. Teach yourself a few tricks and wow the yokels...it has to be one of the world's oldest "professions". You would be amazed at the number of people in America today who are making a living at the same con.

The "Jesus of Love" is a particularly hypocritical spin...for if perchance you are not receptive to his overtures, you get to burn in Hell for all eternity. Wow! That's tough love. "Love me or I'll torture you forever"--who can resist a pick-up line like that? :cheesy:

If the early gospels are accurate, Yeshuah probably was a "religious revolutionary"...at least in the eyes of the Jewish priesthood. But what does that mean? Some guy who wants to substitute one bundle of fresh superstitions for another bundle of old superstitions. Joseph Smith in upstate New York did the same thing in the middle of the 19th century...and now we have the Mormons. Crap in a shiny new package is still crap.

Jesus "might" have been someone Che "admired". Yes, and if we had some ham, we could have some ham and eggs, if we had some eggs. In short, one can freely speculate about what Jesus was "really like" and what Che "might have thought about him", blah, blah, blah. To what purpose?

It seems to me that the purpose of such speculations always comes down to the same thing: some folks "want" to be revolutionaries, but they don't "want" to give up their pre-revolutionary superstitions.

To coin a phrase, it's time to "put away childish things" and think like a grown-up.

:cool:

[Sinistra]

I don't think that bush has abused relegion at any way , he only asked for god's protection , he never said that god is on anybodie's side .

How come non of you speaks on how saddam realy abuses relegion when he wants to involve all of the muslim world inorder to protect his ass , in a so called "holy war" .

what i also don't understand why you apose the war , first you sat it is an excuse to take the oil , now you say it is a crusade ... can you figure out the reason ?????

just because your socilaists it doesnt mean you shouldnt join the us inorder to create a better world .

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Bush does say in his speeches, we will pray for you and that sort of things, suggesting that it is an religious battle and to make things worse he tries to connect Saddam as much as possible with the previous "mister pure evil" Osama. Osama is as we all know very extreme muslim. That suggests an Islam vs Christian fight, that makes us forgot that this is an arguement of the riches and that the only battle we should fight is against the economic upperclass.

[Zombie]

**"just because your socilaists it doesnt mean you shouldnt join the us inorder to create a better world "
join the largest capitalist country in its bloody quest for world domination? r u for real? do u know what socialism/communism stand for?

**"I don't think that bush has abused relegion at any way "
read (http://www.valleyskeptic.com/bush_god.html)

**"what i also don't understand why you apose the war , first you sat it is an excuse to take the oil , now you say it is a crusade ... can you figure out the reason ????? "

i read this from Disgustipated (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=11&topic=3157) :
"First it was that they were the Axis of Evil, then it was maybe ties to Bin Laden, then it was to liberate the people of Iraq, then it was "Saddam" has to go."

confused sinistra?

[chamo]

"One nation under God"
- What an open and multi-ethnic nation that must be.

Bush's use of Christianity as a justification of war is actually quite unchristian. It is very well for him to use his religious principles as guidence for a war of good against evil, where God is on his side. But when it comes to having to massacre hundreds of innocents it doesn't actually bother him.

[YerbaMateJ]

Didn't that lost gospel of Thomas say that the Kingdom of God is within? Didn't the Catholic church try to cover it up until they found it by the Dead Sea in the 1940's? I don't think Jesus believed in a burning pit of hell. That was added later by the manipulators of history and religious controllers of the masses. All of the stuff in the Bible is parables and code language anyway, is it not? Didn't Jesus refer to hell as being a state of mind into which human beings send themselves rather than an actual place "downunder?"

Hell is right here, my friends. Or hadn't you noticed?

[honest intellectual]

Quote: from KRAZYKILLA on 11:25 pm on Mar. 20, 2003
That man George H.W. Bush Jr. makes a mockery of religion and what it stands for. Ambiguously puttting in "pray" and he think's he has God's side? God chooses no sides; the omnipotent omniscient are infused within us all. I hate how he basically pits this as a Christianity V.S. Islam thing. He never DIRECTLY says it but he INDIRECTLY mentions this as the "4th Crusade." This guys is really starting to piss me off. Who else agrees with me?
Bush making a mockery of religion, or religion making a mockery of Bush? Perhaps the religious conservatives are abusing the president raather than the president abusing religion. It's hard to say, really, coz tyhe guy is a complete stranger and we can only speculate about his motivation

[Sinistra]

Can anybody qoute bush saying that god is on his side ?

[Invader Zim]

I dont believe in god so he can spout religious crap till the sun goes down for all i care.

To Zombie

So you like the Cranberries do you.

Zombie is there best song by miles. But in your signiture you should have the next line as well.

(Edited by AK47 at 12:13 pm on Mar. 22, 2003)