Chavs

[loveme4whoiam]

I was lounging about my front room tonight with nothing to do except sleep, so naturally turned on the TV. I noticed that Julie Burchill's document on chavs was on, and since I missed it the first time it was on (Sky One by the way), I thought I'd give it a whirl. I should point out, the synopsis gave me the impression it would be an even-handed look at the chav phenomenon, and I, in my ignorance of Miss Burchill's politics, believed it. Oh, what a fool I was.

It was, as a basic summary, 60 minutes of stating that the middle class envies the working class. This is not an oversimplification, that was what the entire programme consisted of. The presenter made no comment whatsoever as to the violence and crime linked to chav sections of society, stating merely that they were a "fun-loving group of people who know how to have a good time." Frankly, sitting in a park drinking White Lightning doesn't sound like my idea of a good time - how's that for envy?

After sitting through this torrent of shite, I thought I'd come on here and talk about this, as I am wont to do :). So I ask you this questions -

1) Do chavs deserve their reputations as theiving, uneducated, obnoxious, vulgar, immoral, sponging bastards? Or are they simply the product of the middle-class' desire to be like them and, having been excluded, becoming spiteful towards them?

2) Are they representative of the working class of Britian today?

3) If so, what does this mean for any chance of a proletarian revolution?

I think I've made my own feelings on the matter fairly clear, so I'll refrain from posting a great deal of vitriol about my own experiences with chavs and let you guys debate. :ph34r:

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

1) Do chavs deserve their reputations as theiving, uneducated, obnoxious, vulgar, immoral, sponging bastards? Or are they simply the product of the middle-class' desire to be like them and, having been excluded, becoming spiteful towards them?

As a non-chav member of the working class, I say yes. It seems to be part of the chav lifestyle to out of one's way to be annoying and intimidating. Since it's a lifestyle, it does not preclude middle class people from being chavs, so this "envy" point is bunk in my opinion.


2) Are they representative of the working class of Britian today?

I couldn't really say for certain, but being a chav certainly seems popular among white working class youth, especially in the north.


3) If so, what does this mean for any chance of a proletarian revolution?

Chav is indubitably a by-product of "bling" culture, which is itself a fad (Although there is indications as to it's lifespan) and we all know how fleeting they can be.

[ReD_ReBeL]

1) For the most part(not ever single one) they do tend to be theiving no good 'spongers'. This isn't due to society like it is with other working class individuals.I'm sure when you where at school you noticed Chavs showing off and to busy picking on other folk rather than caring for their education,this is why they become 'spongers' not because they are being repressed by society and the government.
I don't think the middle-class envy Chavs, i think its more the other way round. Chavs are jelous of the middle class.

2)Fuck! i hope they aren't the representatives of the working class or we are all fucked. i'm part of the UK working class and im nothing like a chav. I aint perfect atall by certainly not a Chav.
Yes they are shown as working class individuals, but recieving benefits because you 'can't be fucked working' doesnt exactly make you working class does it? sure they may live a working class lifestyle but they sure don't contribute to society.

3)chances are slim, the majority of Chavs are too focused on cigarettes and alcohol rather than caring for other people. going out getting pissed and shagging some bird<thats all they want to do. Sure its good but something else to contribute would be beter.


I too have seen this documentary before and it is totally biased. it does present Chavs as fun-having citizens who are picked on. when truth be they are violent, usualy racist and homophobic creatures.

[loveme4whoiam]

Indeed, I consider myself justified in my dislike of chavs as I have spent a great deal of time with them (there are, of course, exceptions. A couple of my best friends are also mates with loads of chavs). I think I&#39;m part of the working class, or at least upper-working class (father is a fireman, mother a nurse, any ideas? :wacko:), but with "middle-class" ideals, namely education, equality, that sort of stuff. The chavs that I know as more than just a body on the end of a sovereign are completely against these ideals. They support capitalism to the full (wierd that - I guess its the bling culture or something), and are some of the most disciminatory people I know and despise.

I worry about the revolutionary prospects if these truly are respresentative of the next generation of working-classmen. They do not care about politics, in any form (well, they might support thos UKIP or BNP bastards), so how can we ever expect them to revolt against the exploitative and oppressive system?

[bolshevik butcher]

I think that this program missed several points. One of which is that the &#39;chav&#39; thing is not really a rebellion agianst the system like punk or hippie, it glorifies wealth and showing off wealth, its completely designed from above and to work within the system.

It also missed out that that there are lots of middle class chavs.

[YKTMX]

&#39;Chav&#39; is a term of class abuse, and no socialist should use it.

It&#39;s part of a Victorian middle class idea that the &#39;lower classes&#39; can divided in &#39;deserving&#39; and &#39;undeserving&#39; poor.

The fact is that scum like Burchill would never submit any of her or her friends middle class lifestyles or ideas to the same scrutiny. As we know, middle class ideas like &#39;valuing education&#39; are inherently superior to working class values.

It&#39;s also an attempt to propagate the notion there isn&#39;t a &#39;working class&#39; anymore. There&#39;s only a mass of middle class people and then the feckless dregs, or &#39;chavs&#39;, at the bottom of society.

While I might not like or particuarly admire &#39;chav&#39; culture, I&#39;m not going to get involved in middle class snobbery about it, and neither should anyone else.


thing is not really a rebellion agianst the system like punk or hippie

Really? And what was the long term affect of their of those cultures? Nothing.



It also missed out that that there are lots of middle class chavs.


Like who?

[Amusing Scrotum]

Originally posted by loveme4whoiam+--> (loveme4whoiam)....in my ignorance of Miss Burchill&#39;s politics....[/b]

Yes, her politics are quite weird....


Originally posted by Wikipedia+--> (Wikipedia)Her departure was caused by disagreements with the readers over her pro-Israel views in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict....

....Burchill is noted for her confrontational and iconoclastic views, which have been criticised as contradictory. In the 1980s, she wrote in favour of Margaret Thatcher, but she has always claimed she has never renounced the Communist beliefs of her youth. She is a consistent defender of the old Soviet Union.

[....]

Having previously converted to Christianity, she announced in February 2006 plans for a years sabbatical from journalism, during which she plans, among other things, to study theology. The Times has recently dropped her Saturday column, and had arranged a more flexible arrangement where Burchill writes for the daily paper.[/b]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julie_Burchill

A Christian who supports Thatcher and defends the old Soviet Union and Israel.

That&#39;s quite a "mixed bag"&#33; :lol:


Originally posted by loveme4whoiam
Frankly, sitting in a park drinking White Lightning doesn&#39;t sound like my idea of a good time....

Ah, my formative years&#33; :lol:


Originally posted by loveme4whoiam
Do chavs deserve their reputations as theiving, uneducated, obnoxious, vulgar, immoral, sponging bastards?

I have never met anyone who describes themselves as a "chav", but from the wikipedia definition of a "chav"....


Originally posted by Wikipedia
Chav is a slang term which has been in wide use throughout the United Kingdom since 2004. It refers to a subcultural stereotype of a person with fashions such as flashy &#39;bling&#39; jewellery and counterfeit designer clothes or sportswear, an uneducated, uncultured, impoverished background, a tendency to congregate around places such as fast-food outlets, bus stops, or other shopping areas, and a culture of antisocial behavior.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chav

....I most likely know a lot of people who would be described as "chavs".

As far as I can see, the word "chav" basically means working class and the "image" of a "chav" seems to be directly formed from the "middle class mind" and we all know what they think of the working class....don&#39;t we?

The wikipedia criticism....


Originally posted by Wikipedia
The widespread use of the chav stereotype has come under criticism from some quarters, many arguing that it amounts simply to classism, and that social problems such as teenage pregnancy, delinquency and alcoholism in low-income areas are no laughing matter. Critics of the term have argued that its proponents are "neo-snobs" , and that its increasing popularity raises questions about how British society deals with social mobility and class. In a February 2005 article in The Times, Julie Burchill argued that use of the word is a form of "social racism", and that such "sneering" reveals more about the shortcomings of the "chav haters" than those of their supposed victims. Burchill also produced a Sky One television programme on the topic. The controversy around the term was also the subject of a Channel 4 documentary in July 2005, entitled simply Chavs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chav#Critique_of_the_stereotype

....seems pretty good to me. As, as far as I can tell, the "image" of a "chav" seems to be directly derived from the Daily Mail&#39;s perspective of "young, anti-social, drunken yobs".

Indeed, Blair&#39;s "Respect Agenda" (an attempt to bring back Christian Morals) seems to be directly aimed at this group of "social outcasts", of which the majority of the working class (especially 12-30 year olds) could fit under.

As ever, the ruling class has massively overblown a tiny phenomena to "rationalise" all kinds of oppression against the working class - the next time the Police crush someones skull, watch how quickly the Media point out they are an "anti-social yob".

Indeed, anyones who been out on the town recently, will have noticed just how overbearing and fucking annoying the Police have become. They&#39;re everywhere.


[email protected]
chances are slim, the majority of Chavs are too focused on cigarettes and alcohol rather than caring for other people.

If only we all stopped drinking, smoking and having sex, the world would be a better place&#33; :lol:

Indeed, if you are wondering whether the "Chav phenomena" is a "good" or "bad" thing from the prospects of a revolutionary proletariat. Then I&#39;d say that it has the potential to be very beneficial.

In my opinion, it shows a genuine unhappiness with the present social order and a willingness to break the law - admittedly, drinking on a park bench isn&#39;t damaging the State, but it shows a profound lack of respect for our rulers.

Indeed, in Germany in the late twenties to early thirties, the KDP found a fair number of recruits to fight the Brownshirts from the rebellious sections of the German youth - mainly from the working class.

Whilst the "respectable" workers who held down jobs generally sided with the SDP, the 1930&#39;s German equivalent of "chavs" fought the Nazi&#39;s.


ReD_ReBeL
when truth be they are violent, usualy racist and homophobic creatures.

They are "creatures" now, not humans?

The Daily Mail called, the Editor wants you to write for them, preferably an article along the lines of: The Working Class: violent, racist, sexist, homophobic, immoral and most of all....ROTTEN BASTARDS&#33;

[Amusing Scrotum]

Originally posted by YouKnowTheyMurderedX+--> (YouKnowTheyMurderedX)There&#39;s only a mass of middle class people and then the feckless dregs, or &#39;chavs&#39;, at the bottom of society.[/b]

Indeed.

I actually just found this site....

http://www.chavscum.co.uk/

....and if you look at the "Chav of the Month (http://chavscum.co.uk/4images/details.php?image_id=4348)" picture and then read the comments, then I think you get a decent idea of the social basis of anti-chavism.

Take this comment....


KeepBritainTidy
Why do all chavs dress like peasants from Turkmenistan? The gold, the plastic clothes, it&#39;s all spot on. The irony is that they think that this makes them look affluent. Definite Romany influences at work here.

How sweet. :angry:

[loveme4whoiam]

In my opinion, it shows a genuine unhappiness with the present social order and a willingness to break the law - admittedly, drinking on a park bench isn&#39;t damaging the State, but it shows a profound lack of respect for our rulers.

I&#39;d sya their behaviour shows a lack of respect for everyone, not just our rulers. Hell, I have no respect for Blair and co., but I don&#39;t pick a fight with a random black guy as a form of social protest <_<

I like your post AS, it shows a distinctly more even-handed view of this topic than I have :lol:. I&#39;d agree that the middle class in general look down on chavs, but I would not say that the chav culture was created by them I would say that the term chav was created in order to lump them together, but this was a response to the behaviour rather than a cause of it.

In all honesty the term chav took me by surprise - I have always known people who display their behaviour by the term Swills, named for the rough neighbourhood that they "all" come from in my town. I wasn&#39;t aware of any middle-class conspiracy to create or victimise these people, rather they want as little as possible to do with them as a form of protection from their destructive behaviour.

You mention the anti-Brownshirt Germans of the 30&#39;s and 40&#39;s (I was only aware of this subsect of German society becoming active in the 40&#39;s, but then my Nazi Germany course didn&#39;t cover them in great detail), are these the so-called Swing Youth, characterised by adopting Americanised culture and flouting the "pure, Aryan image" that Hitler was so enthusiastic about. I would say (from my own limited knowledge of them, please correct me if I&#39;m wrong) that these people have more in common with the punk scene, as they were rebelling against the established authority rather than supporting it as chavs do. This is where my dislike of them in revolutionary terms comes from - they have no pro-social ideals, and I don&#39;t see them ever becoming politically motivated to do anything other than vote the BNP into power :(

[YKTMX]

Originally posted by Armchair Socialism+Mar 2 2006, 08:05 PM--> (Armchair Socialism @ Mar 2 2006, 08:05 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected]
There&#39;s only a mass of middle class people and then the feckless dregs, or &#39;chavs&#39;, at the bottom of society.

Indeed.

I actually just found this site....

http://www.chavscum.co.uk/

....and if you look at the "Chav of the Month (http://chavscum.co.uk/4images/details.php?image_id=4348)" picture and then read the comments, then I think you get a decent idea of the social basis of anti-chavism.

Take this comment....


KeepBritainTidy
Why do all chavs dress like peasants from Turkmenistan? The gold, the plastic clothes, it&#39;s all spot on. The irony is that they think that this makes them look affluent. Definite Romany influences at work here.

How sweet. :angry: [/b]
I&#39;d like to put the proprietor of that website up against the wall.

:)

[Quills]

I can&#39;t believe that anyone who considers themselves in any way leftist would start this thread.

&#39;Chavs&#39;, in my neck of the woods used to be called &#39;townies&#39;, and it was generally just another label like &#39;goths&#39; or &#39;greebos&#39; or &#39;emos&#39; relating to people who wore sports labels, hoop earrings, and listen to drum and base music. But since it became a media buzzword, it has become a working class, (and to a lesser extent, youth) insult. &#39;Chavs&#39;, according to most people are teenagers, or &#39;yobs&#39; who drink cider, steal bikes, and live in council estates.

It&#39;s just another way the media can demonise poor people and teenagers, and should only appeal to middle class, middle aged people who want to be told how much better and cleverer and richer they are than other people.

[Vanguard1917]

Words like &#39;chav&#39; are a product of contemporary anti-white working class sentiments in society. There is no section in society that is now more openly ridiculed than the white working class. It is socially acceptable. White working class people are seen to be parasites on the face of the earth.

Such sentiments also exist within the old disillusioned left, who have lost faith in the white working class along with the rest of the working class. We need to oppose such sentiments.


It&#39;s also an attempt to propagate the notion there isn&#39;t a &#39;working class&#39; anymore. There&#39;s only a mass of middle class people and then the feckless dregs, or &#39;chavs&#39;, at the bottom of society.

While I might not like or particuarly admire &#39;chav&#39; culture, I&#39;m not going to get involved in middle class snobbery about it, and neither should anyone else.

Nice to see you say something sensible this time.

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by Armchair Socialism+Mar 2 2006, 08:05 PM--> (Armchair Socialism @ Mar 2 2006, 08:05 PM) Take this comment....


KeepBritainTidy
Why do all chavs dress like peasants from Turkmenistan? The gold, the plastic clothes, it&#39;s all spot on. The irony is that they think that this makes them look affluent. Definite Romany influences at work here.

How sweet. :angry: [/b]
A very interesting quote indeed&#33; Good find. Says quite a lot about the whole issue: "oh my, they look like those savages from the faraway deserts... or maybe they&#39;re more like them filthy gypsies..."

It seems that the particular person quoted by AS is a "bit" afraid of foreign culture "invading" Britain. Maybe those people adopting barbarian "culture" will sack our villages, violate our women and steal our children. :lol: This is actually pretty interesting, because it reminds me of the head of the "New Right" party(fascos) who was quoted as saying: "The only thing worse than a negro, is a white negro." It&#39;s all part of the movement to "preserve the race" by avoiding "foreign influences". Don&#39;t get fooled. :ph34r:

[ReD_ReBeL]

I&#39;m not gonna support any racist,homphobic and petty violent person no matter wht social class they are from.unfortunately thats what most Chavs are. Last year this black guy was going to my mates house and a group of Chavs were shouting &#39;Nigger&#39; out there window at him. Yes i know every Chav isnt a no good fuck, but realisticly speaking the majority are.

[Quills]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 09:13 PM
Yes i know every Chav isnt a no good fuck, but realisticly speaking the majority are.
What are you basing this on? That one group of people you saw?

[Amusing Scrotum]

Originally posted by loveme4whoiam+--> (loveme4whoiam)....but I don&#39;t pick a fight with a random black guy as a form of social protest[/b]

I think this sort of shows that there is a lot of confusion around what actually is a "chav". Wikipedia notes....


Originally posted by Wikipedia+--> (Wikipedia)Though "chav" has similarities to American terms such as "white trash" and "trailer trash", it does not bear the racial overtones of its American counterparts, and, according to the stereotype, many supposed chavs belong to multi-ethnic inner city communities such as London council estates.[/b]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chav#Usage

Whilst the Media may portray "chavs" as young white criminals, the actual definition of the word encompasses many ethnicities.

Indeed, as far as I can tell, a "chav" is a young kid (12-18) who fucks around - drinks underage, smokes dope etc. Something I certainly did in my youth and many of my friends did.

However, I wouldn&#39;t say that there was an "underlying current" of racism or homophobia present in "youth ("chav") culture". I&#39;d say, that the reactionary currents within it, are the same - or perhaps even less - than society in general.

Perhaps the Media discusses "white chavs" more, because if they broadened the term to mean working class youths as a whole, then they wouldn&#39;t be able to talk about the "racism" - after all, a social group of friends wouldn&#39;t last long if they were regularly beating up the black members. And of course, people may start bringing up the issue of racism if the Media was talking about "black chavs" being the "scum of the earth".

I think the "popular image" of a "chav", is really the working class through the eyes of the middle class. And they all think the working class are incompetent buffoons&#33; :angry:


Originally posted by loveme4whoiam
I like your post AS....

Thank you. :)


Originally posted by loveme4whoiam
....but I would not say that the chav culture was created by them I would say that the term chav was created in order to lump them together, but this was a response to the behaviour rather than a cause of it.

I wouldn&#39;t dispute that the "behaviour" was already there, before the term "chav" was "pasted on". Though I&#39;d have to say, the "behaviour" has been overblown.

Schools in rich areas for instance, are known to be full of cocaine (lucky bastards&#33;) and other expensive drugs. Yet we don&#39;t hear very much about this do we?

On the other hand, we have "Respect Agendas" and vicious Media campaigns against "working class culture" as a whole. Everyone who goes out on a Saturday night is demonised as a "yob". Yet, most people you meet out, are decent people.

We are told the "streets aren&#39;t safe" for elderly pensioners, but in reality working class pensioners are respected by the community. No one where I live would get away with beating up a pensioner, if they did, then they&#39;d receive a battering.

As ever, the "middle class" has learnt about a few isolated incidents via sensationalist headlines and projected this image onto the working class as a whole.

If an old granny gets mugged by a young working class bloke, then suddenly the whole working class beats up old granny&#39;s.

In many ways, "we" are viewed as a sub-species, even by the sections of the "middle class" who want to "help us".

We&#39;ll show &#39;em&#33; :D


Originally posted by loveme4whoiam
In all honesty the term chav took me by surprise....

Until this thread and then reading the wikipedia definition, I always assumed "chavs" referred to "middle class" Essex kids.

I never thought it applied to me&#33; :o

Mind you, I don&#39;t wear cheap jewellery or Burberry caps, I&#39;ve just done the things "chavs" do.


Originally posted by loveme4whoiam
I wasn&#39;t aware of any middle-class conspiracy to create or victimise these people....

I don&#39;t think it&#39;s a "middle-class conspiracy", it&#39;s just what they honestly think of us. :(


Originally posted by loveme4whoiam
I was only aware of this subsect of German society becoming active in the 40&#39;s....

I&#39;m referring to the fighting before 1933 and the "Red Front" (or faction?) which was the fighting section of the German Communist Party.

They mainly drew recruits from the German unemployed, but the German youth which was being persecuted by the German State - correctional facilities etc. - also joined up.

They may not have understood what "workers power" was, or what revolution entailed, but like the unemployed, they despised the German State and the Nazi Party which if in power, would persecute them even more.

As for the groups like Swing Youth and the Edelweiss Pirates, I&#39;m not sure, but I think these were sort of "middle class" currents - University Students etc.

That being said, I think these groups show how the "young" have a certain recklessness about them that is angrily opposed to social hierarchies.

In a way, I suppose you could say that all teenagers are potential communists, because all teenagers have to deal with adult despotism.


Originally posted by loveme4whoiam
....rather than supporting it as chavs do.

I don&#39;t see how "chavs" are "supporting" any kind of "established authority".

For instance, the Burberry clothing they were, has been successfully "commandeered" from the Aristocracy - Burberry was originally a house riding thing.

They also have a huge amount of disdain for the Police and the Law. They do drink underage, they do do drugs and so on.

They also have no time for organised Religion. The Catholic Church where I live, has had a cock sprayed on the statue of Jesus for years. :lol:

They also don&#39;t respect adults just because they adults.

None of this on its own is necessarily a "good" thing, but in my opinion it has the potential to become a "good" thing. It&#39;s almost as if a proto-communist mindset is forming within elements of todays youth culture.

And hopefully, that "mindset" can be "tapped into".


Originally posted by YouKnowTheyMurderedX
I&#39;d like to put the proprietor of that website up against the wall.

I&#39;ll supply the bullets&#33; :D


Originally posted by Quills
It&#39;s just another way the media can demonise poor people and teenagers, and should only appeal to middle class, middle aged people who want to be told how much better and cleverer and richer they are than other people.

Well said.

The "demonisation" of the working class has happened for centuries.


Originally posted by Vanguard1917
Words like &#39;chav&#39; are a product of contemporary anti-white working class sentiments in society.

In a sense, I agree.

The "left" has (rightly) been concerned with combating racism against people of colour for a long time now, and in many ways, they have been pretty successful.

However, the white working class, which was (rightly) attacked for racist sentiments, has now in many ways, become a "social parasite" in the eyes of the "left". Bob Avakian being a good example.

This means that when the white working class is singled out by the Media, people don&#39;t give a hit.

They are racists and sexists and homophobes and so on.

When in reality, the working class has left a lot of the last centuries garbage behind. In a generation or two, I can see racism becoming a thing of the past - so long as "multi-culturalism" is given the boot.

Therefore, as you pointed out, it is now "socially acceptable" in Britain to view young white men as "yobs", the same way in America it is "socially acceptable" to view young black men as criminals.


Originally posted by Matthijs
It seems that the particular person quoted by AS is a "bit" afraid of foreign culture "invading" Britain.

After all, they won&#39;t Keep Britain Tidy&#33; :lol:


[email protected]
It&#39;s all part of the movement to "preserve the race" by avoiding "foreign influences".

I think that is a good point.

At the "root" of this "demonisation", could be the "fear" that the white working class will become "Africanised" - listening to "rap" and "hip-hop" and so on.

After all, if the racists can no longer attack black people openly, why not attack white people who are "acting" like black people.


ReD_ReBeL
Yes i know every Chav isnt a no good fuck, but realisticly speaking the majority are.

I don&#39;t know how you could prove such a statement.

I&#39;ll agree that "multi-culturalism" has led to both the white and black communities "looking down" on Muslim communities. After all, white and black people are integrated into society together and as of yet, the Muslim communities aren&#39;t.

However, I don&#39;t think "chavs" (white and black youths) are anything like you think they are.

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 07:40 PM
&#39;Chav&#39; is a term of class abuse, and no socialist should use it.

It&#39;s part of a Victorian middle class idea that the &#39;lower classes&#39; can divided in &#39;deserving&#39; and &#39;undeserving&#39; poor.

The fact is that scum like Burchill would never submit any of her or her friends middle class lifestyles or ideas to the same scrutiny. As we know, middle class ideas like &#39;valuing education&#39; are inherently superior to working class values.

It&#39;s also an attempt to propagate the notion there isn&#39;t a &#39;working class&#39; anymore. There&#39;s only a mass of middle class people and then the feckless dregs, or &#39;chavs&#39;, at the bottom of society.

While I might not like or particuarly admire &#39;chav&#39; culture, I&#39;m not going to get involved in middle class snobbery about it, and neither should anyone else.


thing is not really a rebellion agianst the system like punk or hippie

Really? And what was the long term affect of their of those cultures? Nothing.



It also missed out that that there are lots of middle class chavs.


Like who?
Well mate I dunno about you but in my area i regularly see middle class chavs. They attend private schools etc. And i dont wish to get inot the pros and cons of punk and hippie, my point was that chav isnt a movment in the same sense. When I say chav I dont mean people of the undesering lower class.

[ReD_ReBeL]

I don&#39;t know how you could prove such a statement.

Ok i&#39;ll phrase is better, The majority of Chavs around this area are mostly twats. I remember when i was still at school last year, they usto terrorise the smaller kids and people who they know wouldent stikc up for themselfs ie. geeks and non-popular kids. They usto put there school bags down toilets, in Gym they wiped there ass of some guys t-shirt when he was int he sports hall, because he was gay. they usto take the piss out of this girl because she was asian. Thats just in the school. Outside of school in the town one of them put a pub window thro because he had previosly been barred because of fighting every time he was drunk. one of them set fire and torched somebodys caravan because they didn&#39;t get on(man with caravan from very working class household and poor).
Another incident was a chav was throwing junk and some homeless guy on the streets and nicked the thing he slept on.
I believe the reason they are looked down on isn&#39;t jst there social class but there attitude. Plus one of the most fucked up Chavs in my area is from a middle class house and doesnt work.His parents keep him because there fairly well off.

[bolshevik butcher]

Exactly, I&#39;m stil at school, one of the worst in scotland btw, and I see it ona daily basis and have been bullied and attacked myself.

[Quills]

Around my area, the &#39;chavs&#39; are looked down on and mocked by the &#39;cool&#39; alternative kids, and people cross the road to avoid them. This maybe because they are often loud and drunk and in quite large groups in the streets.

The reason they are on the streets is because they&#39;re often too young to go to pubs and bars, and those that aren&#39;t are often refused access because of their appearance.

The teachers at my old school, and to a lesser extent my college, picked on them, probably because of the media portrayal of them, and as a result they mostly didn&#39;t excell. And often dropped out as soon as they could, leaving them wondering around the street, and getting into trouble (especially as the police often targetted them), which the local &#39;cool&#39; kids took as proof that they were in fact just generally better than them, as they had suspected all along, and the media get the sensationalised &#39;yob&#39; stories they are looking for, and the cycle continues.

[loveme4whoiam]

Would I, do you think, have received the replies you guys have posted if I had used the term "lumpenproletariat" in my topic title rather than chav? From my understanding of the term lumpenproletariat fits the chav group perfectly (of course, my understanding may be flawed). Just something to think about.


I can&#39;t believe that anyone who considers themselves in any way leftist would start this thread.
Why the hell shouldn&#39;t I start this thread? I saw something on TV, wanted to debate it, so I can here. Where&#39;s the harm of that? :blink: Unless, of course, you think that just by talking about the chav phenomenon we are encouraging the middle-class discrimination of the working class. Jebus, what was I thinking? Perhaps we should stop talking about racism for fear of advocating that&#33;


Such sentiments also exist within the old disillusioned left, who have lost faith in the white working class along with the rest of the working class. We need to oppose such sentiments.
You are right, I have lost faith in the white working class. The evidence of my own eyes, not what the media has told me (I don&#39;t read newspapers) has led me to this. I&#39;d dearly like to have faith in this broad section of society, but at the moment it is a case of the few dragging down the majority.



QUOTE (ReD_ReBeL @ Mar 2 2006, 09:13 PM)
Yes i know every Chav isnt a no good fuck, but realisticly speaking the majority are.
What are you basing this on? That one group of people you saw?
Why should it a bad thing for him to believe the evidence of his own eyes? Granted, a single incident does not warrant a generalisation but we can hardly expect ReD_ReBeL to post up every incident of anti-social behaviour he has seen perpetrated by chavs.


Indeed, as far as I can tell, a "chav" is a young kid (12-18) who fucks around - drinks underage, smokes dope etc.
I would not say that that is a chav. That is the behaviour of a chav, a goth, hell, just about every teenage group I can think of. What I feel is chavish behaviour are actions that are motivated through simply the desire to destroy, to be anti-social to anyone and everyone. They do not discern between white and black people (I could have used any example, I just chose one to characterise the ignorant racism that I have seen displayed by chavs in my area), authority or anti-authority, hell, they don&#39;t discern between chavs and non-chavs. They will insult and destroy anything this wish to, and not through any politically-motivated thought process.
Anyone who wants to drink underage and smoke dope is, in my opinion, just out for a good time. But behaviour such as I have mentioned above, I call chavish.


I wouldn&#39;t dispute that the "behaviour" was already there, before the term "chav" was "pasted on". Though I&#39;d have to say, the "behaviour" has been overblown.
Perhaps. I can&#39;t comment on how the media reports it because, as I said, I don&#39;t read the press. I&#39;d agree that the truly excessive behaviour is probably exaggerated through "journalistic license <_<".


Yet, most people you meet out, are decent people.
True enough. I frequent clubs that don&#39;t attract chavs (apart from one or two who are wasted and want to take the piss out of the goths), but I&#39;ve been into "their" clubs enough to know that were I to be flamboyantly open about my music tastes I&#39;d be on the wrong end of a fist (at best - some bastard tried to knife me once, that put me off that club for good&#33;) But yeah, the majority are juts out for a good time, same as me. But it is the minority which bring the rest into bad repute.


I never thought it applied to me&#33; :o
You aren&#39;t a chav&#33; At least, my definition doesn&#39;t seem to fit you :D


I&#39;m referring to the fighting before 1933 and the "Red Front" (or faction?) which was the fighting section of the German Communist Party.
Ah - I never studied pre-1933 in detail, although I think we should have. And yes, the Swing Youth and the Pirates were middle-class groups as far as I can recall.


In a way, I suppose you could say that all teenagers are potential communists, because all teenagers have to deal with adult despotism.
Indeed - a veritable recruiting ground :D We should do recruitment drives US Army-style, visiting schools and the like.


I don&#39;t see how "chavs" are "supporting" any kind of "established authority".
I think I was a bit vague there. What I meant was that they support consumerism (no-one can argue with that, surely?). They are largely apathetic to politics as far as I know - all the political conversations I&#39;ve had with them (apart from one, which was actually a decent and worthwhile twenty minutes) have not gotten very far.


None of this on its own is necessarily a "good" thing, but in my opinion it has the potential to become a "good" thing. It&#39;s almost as if a proto-communist mindset is forming within elements of todays youth culture.

And hopefully, that "mindset" can be "tapped into".

I don&#39;t see any kind of proper Communist potential. You are right, all these things on their own aren&#39;t much because they do not have any direction - were they doing all these things with an aim to actually bring down the establishment then I&#39;d praise them. Well actually, I wouldn&#39;t because I don&#39;t see these things as actually furthering the revolution, but you know what I mean :)

So, as a kind of summary (me thinking out loud) - the term "chav" is misleading. It has been created by the Daily Mail et al for the prupose of banding together all the teenage anti-social events under one all-purpose term. My image of chavs is far removed form that of the media (apparently), so it looks like I&#39;ll have to come up with a new word for it :D. Teens With An Anti-Social Mentality - TWAASM&#39;s?

Since this thread was supposed to be about the revolutionary potential of these people, could the name of it be changed? I don&#39;t know if that&#39;s possible, but it would help move the conversation on. Something like "Revolutionary Potential of those with an Anti-Social Mentality".

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Since not all working class youth are chavs, and not all chavs are working class youth, the idea that chav is a class slur is a fucking typical middle-class champaigne socialist liberal lie.

I may be biased because I have faced a combination of intimidation and racism/nationalism from these fuckers - "go home you fucking Saes&#33;" and having my sister&#39;s bedroom window shot with an airgun by some fat fuck of a chav and not being able to do squat about it because his daddy is an MP.

Chavs can fucking die for all I care. They know what they do is wrong, and they laugh about it. Yet fucking shriveldick liberals won&#39;t hear a word against them.

[YKTMX]

Noxion seems to be confused. He appears to think that a dislike of the word chav means I think there are no nasty people in the world. I don&#39;t know where he gets this from.

&#39;Chav&#39; is a word with a particular meaning. It&#39;s a middle class slur against the working class, which is repeated by the media and pitiful websites like the one we&#39;ve looked at.

Now, Noxion clearly sees some similarities in people he&#39;s encountered in his own life with the characteristics of a &#39;chav&#39; - this doesn&#39;t mean he should accept the word as reasonable.


Chavs can fucking die for all I care. They know what they do is wrong, and they laugh about it. Yet fucking shriveldick liberals won&#39;t hear a word against them.

Why don&#39;t you fuck off and join the Labour Party, then?

You&#39;re obviously a lover of the ASBO, ID cards etc.

You&#39;re acting as if you&#39;ve got a monopoly on suffering. Pull yourself together.


not all chavs are working class youth

I&#39;ve seen this repeated a couple of times.

Apart from &#39;a guy I know down the street&#39;, what&#39;s your evidence for this. Certainly, in popular culture, the criteria for being a &#39;chav&#39; are quite clear:

You live on a housing estate in rented accomadation (which I do)
You&#39;re parents aren&#39;t married/single motherhood (me again)
You have a bad attitude (me again)
You&#39;re quite poor (me again)
You dress in sportswear (not me)
You like to get drunk (yes, guilty)

How many &#39;middle class&#39; people are living in tower blocks that you know of?

Stop being so fucking naive and get your head out your arse.

[ReD_ReBeL]

Chav is a derogatory slang term in popular usage throughout the UK. It refers to a subculture stereotype of a person who is uneducated, uncultured and prone to antisocial or immoral behaviour. The label is typically, though not exclusively, applied to teenagers and young adults of white working-class or lower-middle class origin. Chav is used for both sexes, where a male chav is sometimes referred to as a chavster and a female as a chavette.

There thats the definition of a Chav.

[Amusing Scrotum]

It seems to me that we all have different definitions for "chav". Take this....


Originally posted by Clenched Fist+--> (Clenched Fist)Well mate I dunno about you but in my area i regularly see middle class chavs.[/b]

This definition, as well as NoXion&#39;s, seem to differ quite a bit from my definition and YouKnowTheyMurderedX&#39;s definition.

For YKTMX and I, the term "chav" refers to a distinct social class, who usually live in working class areas and are between the ages of 12 and 30. The other definition, seems to refer to what I originally thought a "chav" was, a slur used to refer to "middle class" Essex boys who drive "kitted up" Fiestas&#39;.

The wikipedia definition....


Originally posted by Wikipedia+--> (Wikipedia)Chav is a slang term which has been in wide use throughout the United Kingdom since 2004. It refers to a subcultural stereotype of a person with fashions such as flashy &#39;bling&#39; jewellery and counterfeit designer clothes or sportswear, an uneducated, uncultured, impoverished background, a tendency to congregate around places such as fast-food outlets, bus stops, or other shopping areas, and a culture of antisocial behavior.[/b]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chav

....seems to confirm YKTMX&#39;s definition and refers to the group Monsieur Blair has deemed "anti-social yobs".

So I suppose the question of "chavs" as a social group now becomes....

Are they just followers of a particular "fashion"? Or, are they young working class kids who hang around on street corners?

Defining whether we are talking about a cross-class fashion or an actual social class, is pretty important in my opinion.


Originally posted by Quills
The reason they are on the streets is because they&#39;re often too young to go to pubs and bars, and those that aren&#39;t are often refused access because of their appearance.

Indeed.

The "chav" I am thinking of, is a young kid with nothing to do and needless to say, hanging around on the streets, often attracts "Police repression".

Not fun.


Originally posted by loveme4whoiam
....if I had used the term "lumpenproletariat" in my topic title rather than chav?

I don&#39;t know what the response would have been, but there was thread on it in the Theory forum the other day....

http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...opic=46396&st=0 (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=46396&st=0)

I don&#39;t think "chavs" qualify - at least by some definitions.


Originally posted by loveme4whoiam
Why the hell shouldn&#39;t I start this thread?

Exactly.

This board provides a learning environment for revolutionary leftists. There is absolutely no reason why people shouldn&#39;t start threads on topics that have aroused their interests, certainly avoiding issues and not discussing them is foolish.


Originally posted by loveme4whoiam
What I feel is chavish behaviour are actions that are motivated through simply the desire to destroy, to be anti-social to anyone and everyone.

Sounds like extreme alienation from society to me....perhaps even a mental disorder.

And from my understanding, there are too many who fit under the definition of a "chav" for this type of behaviour to be described as a "mental disorder".

It seems to be a social phenomena, something Marxists love&#33; :D


Originally posted by loveme4whoiam
Anyone who wants to drink underage and smoke dope is, in my opinion, just out for a good time. But behaviour such as I have mentioned above, I call chavish.

I suspect this is where the confusion comes in.

Most underage drinkers will commit petty vandalism and large social groups, especially ones that are persecuted, will act with hostility to "outsiders".

In a sense, these social groups form a kind of "pack mentality" and protect each other.

Then question then becomes....

Where is the line between a "rebellious" youngster and a "thuggish brute"?

As with all definitions, it will be highly subjective - what you could call thuggery, I&#39;d call brilliance and so on.

So, I think the term "chav" represents two separate social phenomena....

1) Poor and disgruntled teenagers.

And,

2) Slightly disturbed brutes.

I don&#39;t care if the term "chav" is used to describe one or tother, but it is important to separate the two.


Originally posted by loveme4whoiam
Ah - I never studied pre-1933 in detail, although I think we should have.

There was a thread on the KPD a while back, however I can&#39;t find it on the search engine. This....

Losing the Battle of the Streets -- Reflections on the KPD 1930-33 January 29, 2005 by RedStar2000 (http://www.redstar2000papers.com/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1107010157&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&)

....is redstar2000&#39;s piece which was derived from that thread.


[email protected]
They are largely apathetic to politics as far as I know....

Most people (around 50%) are "largely apathetic" to the type of politics where you "choose" between one rich bastard and another.

Not at all bad in my opinion. :D

If Marx was right, then as Capitalism ages it will stumble from one slump to another, in such times people get interested in politics. In the 30&#39;s alone, around a million people passed through the Official American Communist Party.

Material conditions create a revolutionary consciousness and when the material conditions lay the foundations for a revolutionary situation, those "chavs" will be clubbing Policemen like there&#39;s no tomorrow. :lol:


the definition of a Chav
Chav is a derogatory slang term in popular usage throughout the UK. It refers to a subculture stereotype of a person who is uneducated, uncultured and prone to antisocial or immoral behaviour. The label is typically, though not exclusively, applied to teenagers and young adults of white working-class or lower-middle class origin. Chav is used for both sexes, where a male chav is sometimes referred to as a chavster and a female as a chavette.

That sounds like a young working class kid who doesn&#39;t want to spend his/her time doing homework&#33; :lol:

And "immoral"??? :lol:

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

YKTMX is clearly an idiot. He thinks that if a word to describe a certain subculture is used by the media, it makes it "middle class".


Now, Noxion clearly sees some similarities in people he&#39;s encountered in his own life with the characteristics of a &#39;chav&#39; - this doesn&#39;t mean he should accept the word as reasonable.

Why the hell not? If it looks like a chav, grunts like a chav, squares like a chav and spits at people like a chav, it&#39;s a fucking chav.


Why don&#39;t you fuck off and join the Labour Party, then?

You&#39;re obviously a lover of the ASBO, ID cards etc.

Red herring. What the fuck does the labour party have to do with this? Is there something wrong with not liking people who go out of their way to make others feel intimidated?
ASBOs, ID cards and all that other crap do precisely dick, they are just there so Blair looks like he&#39;s "doing something"


I&#39;ve seen this repeated a couple of times.

Apart from &#39;a guy I know down the street&#39;, what&#39;s your evidence for this. Certainly, in popular culture, the criteria for being a &#39;chav&#39; are quite clear:

[snip description]

How many &#39;middle class&#39; people are living in tower blocks that you know of?

Why should your defintion of chav be any more authoritative than mine? Have you been to the home of every "chav" and confirmed their housing status and class? I doubt it.
Also, as hard as it may be for you to accept, the working class are not "angels". Some of them are complete and utter pricks. Why you defend such people is a mystery to me.

[bloody_capitalist_sham]

I think chavs are predominantly members of the working class, but reactionary members.

Chavs HARM other members of the working class, they damage social property.

They are un-political, as a group within the whole of the working class.

Why do they get so much stick? maybe because they are class traitors, just as gangsters and organized crime is, just to a lesser extent.

Why are do chavs exist? Maybe because they totally disposes ed from anything, they even lack the solidarity that exists within the working class.

As they are alienated from the people who share their own class interests, they will, of course have a negative influence.

I oppose discrimination against chavs, they are people just like us. But i also suffer from the repercussions of chavs in society, like anyone who lives in a poor urban neighborhood. We cant just retire to our country retreat and escape them&#33;

What we should do, as socialists/communists/anarchists is try to bring them into our movement, how to do this? I have no idea.

[YKTMX]

Why should your defintion of chav be any more authoritative than mine?

I don&#39;t have a definition of the word - because it&#39;s a stupid fucking word.



Also, as hard as it may be for you to accept, the working class are not "angels". Some of them are complete and utter pricks. Why you defend such people is a mystery to me.


Where did I &#39;defend&#39; anyone?

In fact, I stated repeatedly that I detested the sort of behaviour and attitudes described.

However, despite this, I&#39;m not going to buy into, as you clearly have, something which is demonstrably a media invention. And, despite your naivety, we know most media inventions are products of the middle class because, well, mainsteam journalists are middle class.

The word &#39;chav&#39; is a term of class abuse - like &#39;white trash&#39; or &#39;redneck&#39;.

It&#39;s designed to stigmatise and demonise a whole section of society. You can call the people annoying you racists, or idiots, or pricks, or bastards - but not &#39;chavs&#39;.

It&#39;s the difference between calling a black man who upsets you a &#39;worthless ****&#39; and a &#39;dirty nigger&#39;.

Do you have a more authoritative definition of a &#39;dirty nigger&#39;?


Disclaimer: Sorry for using both the &#39;n&#39; word and the &#39;c&#39; word, here.

They&#39;re horrible, I know, but reasonable in the terms of this discussion.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

However, despite this, I&#39;m not going to buy into, as you clearly have, something which is demonstrably a media invention.

Really? Elaborate.


And, despite your naivety, we know most media inventions are products of the middle class because, well, mainsteam journalists are middle class.

Prove it.


The word &#39;chav&#39; is a term of class abuse - like &#39;white trash&#39; or &#39;redneck&#39;.

It&#39;s designed to stigmatise and demonise a whole section of society.


Bull fucking shit. Not all working class youth are chavs.


It&#39;s the difference between calling a black man who upsets you a &#39;worthless ****&#39; and a &#39;dirty nigger&#39;.

Do you have a more authoritative definition of a &#39;dirty nigger&#39;?

More red herrings? Not surprising coming you.

Disclaimer: I don&#39;t give a monkey&#39;s toss about shitty PC sensibilities

[patrickbeverley]

If I was to meet someone defined as a chav in my everyday life, I would hold off judging that person until I got to know them, and would judge them as a person, not as a chav.

On the other hand, if I was to see a few chavs hanging out on the street ahead of me late at night, I might consider taking a different route home to avoid trouble.

To deny that there is a culture of violence among chavs would be silliness. But every person deserves to be judged as an individual, not a stereotype. Prejudice may be of use to me in getting home safely, but it is of no use in making reasoned judgments of my fellow human beings, or of a rising subculture.

[Davey]

I believe the word chav comes from the Romany word &#39;chavi&#39;, meaning &#39;child&#39;. It is certainly a working class phenomenon, but I don&#39;t think it&#39;s a slur on the working class as a whole, and I&#39;m a socialist who uses the term. They are just a youth group, like skinheads. The comparison is ampt, as they tend to be a reactionary group politically, like many skins. I&#39;ve been jumped and punched by the little bastards a few times. But don&#39;t always judge a book by it&#39;s cover [although you can often tell alot by the way people dress,] I know people who wear sports clothes and drink cider, but they can be nice people once you know them. The working class always has a reactionary element, as well as a more enlightened element. Chavs are materialistic and envy the middle class. And some of them are right little bastards, believe me.

[The Grey Blur]

I hate dickheads, no matter what class of society they come from