North korea

[IPkurd]

Does anyone have an opinion on north korea, kim yung il is happy to start a nuclear war, before his father died he tested a new missile on a passenger plain carrying 300 people so that tells you that hes mad, but then again he'll probaly hit america so its not that bad.

[chamo]

Why is it "not that bad" if America is hit by a nuclear bomb? Thousands, maybe millions of innocent people will die just like in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Kin Jung Il is a paranoid, fascist dictator who would "blow up" any country or people.

[Just Joe]

thia topic has come up a few times. i've been guilty of dismissing DPKR but the facts are no-one knows enough to comment. unless you've been there.

but i'd say Juche is a good idea for Socialism in small countries.

[ComradeJunichi]

Opinion on the DPRK is just on the middle, I have no opinion as there are no facts to base an opinion upon. However, opinions leans toward the support of the DPRK.

How do you know Kim Jung Il is happy to start a nuclear war? Do you know more about the situation when the plane was shot down? Why is it okay for the US to be hit?

[Pete]

It is not ok for any country to be hit by a nuclear bomb. It is a tradegdy, a scar on humanity that we continue to proudce and keep these devices!

[Guardia Bolivariano]

The fact is N korea is the only small country(in resources and economic power) that can take on the US and actualy win.
It's not the example to folow but they certainly show that they won't take any shit from the only superpower left.
And the truth is countrys like N Korea are the only nations that complicate american global domination.

[Saint-Just]

Quote: from IPkurd on 5:32 pm on Mar. 19, 2003
Does anyone have an opinion on north korea, kim yung il is happy to start a nuclear war, before his father died he tested a new missile on a passenger plain carrying 300 people so that tells you that hes mad, but then again he'll probaly hit america so its not that bad.


Tested a new missile on a passenger plane???? that is a terrible lie. The plane flew into DPRK territory, assuming it was a spy plane, it was shot down.

How can you suggest Kim Jong Il is happy to start a nuclear war. They have no such intention. They have no intention of any pre-emptive strike by any means. They will defend themselves if attacked by the U.S., however they do not possess thermonuclear weapons, or at least it is suspected that they do not.

I would suggest you may want to visit these sites:

http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm

http://www.kdvr.de/english/dictator.html

http://www.kdvr.de/english/famine.html

http://www.korea-dpr.com/


(Edited by Chairman Mao at 10:53 pm on Mar. 19, 2003)

[thursday night]

I used to have many qualms with the DPRK, but now thanks to my re-education on the issue I am a supporter of the socialist regime there -- mostly. A few of my old qualms still remain but nevertheless as an anti-imperialist I feel I must stand in support of nations that have been and continue to be a victim of brutal American/capitalist imperialism.

[Sovietsky Souyuz]

with regards to our Korean comrades, sticking two fingers up at the US is a marvellous idea, even if the two fingers are twenty megaton warheads, but hey.......shame blair hasn't got the balls too.......that'd be nice way of sayin 'britain is still british, not a state of america'.............but what can you do ?

[Larissa]

I truly hope the DPRK smashes the idiot US government. It would make us all a huge favor. If there is ever a war against North Korea, do not have any doubts, the yanquees will lose it like it happened with Vietnam.

[4514]

North Korea is our trump card
in the war against the US goverment but hopfully we dont have ta use it, nuclear weapons are no good for anyone. im really proud to be from a nuclear free country,
"kia kaha e Aotearoa!"
4514

[Larissa]

Quote: from Chairman Mao on 7:45 pm on Mar. 19, 2003

I would suggest you may want to visit these sites:

http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm

http://www.kdvr.de/english/dictator.html

http://www.kdvr.de/english/famine.html

http://www.korea-dpr.com/


(Edited by Chairman Mao at 10:53 pm on Mar. 19, 2003)
Thanks for the links, Chairman Mao!

[Pete]

I have heard the arguement that part of the reason why America invaded vietnam was to disable a communist nation. So taht they had one less 'heathen' to worry about...

[man in the red suit]

Quote: from CrazyPete on 2:24 am on Mar. 20, 2003
I have heard the arguement that part of the reason why America invaded vietnam was to disable a communist nation. So taht they had one less 'heathen' to worry about...

well duh......ever heard of containment? there you go. take em out one by one so those evil commies won't spread and take over the world. :biggrin:

[Fidelbrand]

But think on the other side, if NK wins ... its horrible pride n insanity wld be something of a mega shit for the world!~! Worse than US ... to some extent.

(Edited by Fidelbrand at 7:18 am on Mar. 20, 2003)

[Iepilei]

many believe that the DPRK is acting in such ways as to blackmail the US into providing more electricity or even funds.

if this is their stance, I say more power to them! it's not everday you see a nation as such stand tall against a superpower.

[Geddan]

Go DPRK!

[Xvall]

I never really used to support the North Korean government much; but at this rate, I believe that I probably will eventually do this. The United States is biting off more than it can chew. North Korea has done nothing to it. If the United States attacks North Korea; I stand in full support for North Korea to defend their nation.

[ComradeJunichi]

I too, would support North Korea. Although my family, friends, memories, and everything...Everything is there.

I hope nothing happens - but that's the same thought we had for Iraq, wasn't it?

(Edited by ComradeJunichi at 11:11 pm on Mar. 20, 2003)

[Saint-Just]

Quote: from Fidelbrand on 7:17 am on Mar. 20, 2003
But think on the other side, if NK wins ... its horrible pride n insanity wld be something of a mega shit for the world!~! Worse than US ... to some extent.

(Edited by Fidelbrand at 7:18 am on Mar. 20, 2003)


Part of my life is devoted to the dissemination and furthering the practice of the Korean ideology and system. I've debated this many times, suffice to say however I would quite strongly suggest that it is system of society is rather preferential to that of the U.S., even though it is not the correct system for any country except Korea, we can learn much from it.

'many believe that the DPRK is acting in such ways as to blackmail the US into providing more electricity or even funds.'

The DPRK has had sufficient energy supply up until 1993 with the stepping up of blocades against the country. This lack of electricity has reduced the country to famine in certain regions. Lack of 'funds' is a result of these blocades too.

The DPRK is not blackmailing the U.S., it has no nuclear weapons to blackmail them with.

'I never really used to support the North Korean government much; but at this rate, I believe that I probably will eventually do this. The United States is biting off more than it can chew. North Korea has done nothing to it. If the United States attacks North Korea; I stand in full support for North Korea to defend their nation.'

My sentiments too. The DPRK, many of you may not realise, has an indominatable force in its army, history has rarely seen an army imbued with such idelogical might and in such great masses. For over 50 years, the entire life of the soldiers they have developed their own 'do-or-die' spirit in anticipation that the forever present tensions that the U.S. occupation and persistent remarks on war create will eventually culmate in the Korean people having to once and for all defend their sovereignty.

The has developed as close a socialist utopia as possible, many, many lies are spread, specifically by the U.S. imperialist propagandists. The nature of their propaganda can be exacted from such ridiculous lies as Kim Jong Il watches late 50's American cartoons all day.

In actual fact, people in Korea enjoy a relatively high standard of living, and their way of life and their achievements are a constant torch for world progressives.

[KRAZYKILLA]

I think ona pERSONAL note Kim Jong Il is not a good person but America is CLEARLY trying to bully him around.

[thursday night]

Chairman Mao, do you have any idea why the PRC, with its considerably high amounts of wealth, does not support the DPRK more than it does today? Or perhaps I am mistaken and the PRC does indeed support the North Korean government with large sums of foreign aid?

[BRIN]

would anyone help n korea if america attact them?

[Guardia Bolivariano]

Quote: from BRIN on 8:21 am on Mar. 21, 2003
would anyone help n korea if america attact them?

Maybe China but they really don't need help they have one of the most powefull non NATO armys in the world.
Not to metion operational NUKES!

[abstractmentality]

Quote: from Chairman Mao on 3:21 pm on Mar. 20, 2003

In actual fact, people in Korea enjoy a relatively high standard of living, and their way of life and their achievements are a constant torch for world progressives.

If you can clear this up for me, CM, i was wondering why this website (http://www.vuw.ac.nz/~caplabtb/dprk/NK_food.htm) says everything contrary to what you say about North Korea above. i was wondering where the difference comes from.

also, i am really tired of people using the "my enemies enemy is my friend" type of argument for giving your support for something, in this case a country. if you dont like how the country is being run, then you should support it because it fights against something you fight against? in my opinion, no. you may want to work with them, as can be seen in the broad anti-war movement right now, but to come out and say you support them is to say that if you were in their leaders place, you would run it the same way. just because North Korea may oppose imperialist action doesnt mean you have to support it. if country "x" were to be blatantly capitalist, with large gaps between the rich and the poor, 50% of the population homeless, and 45% unemployed, but was avid in the fight against imperialism, does that mean you support them? i hope i have made my point.

(Edited by abstractmentality at 1:37 pm on Mar. 21, 2003)

[Saint-Just]

'Chairman Mao, do you have any idea why the PRC, with its considerably high amounts of wealth, does not support the DPRK more than it does today? Or perhaps I am mistaken and the PRC does indeed support the North Korean government with large sums of foreign aid?' thursday night

The support from the PRC in trade and aid is far less today than it was prior to 1976. The countries are on good terms, China sees the DPRK as important since it is right next to Chinese border, and has security interests in the area, although these security interests are not that great since China is now a relatively open country.

The reason China does not aid the DPRK significantly is that they are ideologically not on the same terms. Deng Xiaoping was an exceptional revisionist, he made such statements as:

'the communist manifesto is nearly a hundred and fifty years old. Marx studied a society that has been dead for a century and a half, nor did he ever study China'

'Lenin knew World War I Czarist Russia. What does that have to do with China in 1985?'

'Mao knew China's feudal peasant world before and after 1927, a long time in the past'

I can explain further but I think you most probably understand what I am speaking about now.

This is why China and the DPRK are simply on good terms, if China were a different country, a country with the same ideology as DPRK, it would be an incredibly strong nation and highly dangerous to imperialism, however it is not. And so, the DPRK and China are not great allies.


'Maybe China but they really don't need help they have one of the most powefull non NATO armys in the world.
Not to metion operational NUKES!' Guardia Bolivariano

Absolutely correct. China would aid them as far as their security interests go, which in all likelyhood, they would not aid them at all. The DPRK has an army-centred policy for precisely the means of its protection, and it is not simply an army, it is an army with an entire nation wholly in support of it. Juche ideology has been the ideology of the nation for 50 years, all citizens have been brought up under it. There truly is something inexplicable about the nation. The KPA has lived and developed under the banner of the 'do-or-die' spirit and the people hold the same values. In war the motivation of soldiers and the support of the nation is an extremely important factor. The spirit of the Korean people can be observed from the mass anti-war demonstations against U.S. imperialism that take place, with attendance in millions.

Their army is around 1,250,000 strong. Around 4000 tanks, 600 ships, 550 aircraft. In addition 115,000 paramilitary.


'If you can clear this up for me, CM, i was wondering why this website says everything contrary to what you say about North Korea above. i was wondering where the difference comes from.' abstractmentality

Your source is reasonably reliable and likely not particularly bias, however the figures are most likely not correct as I will explain later, although they are a acceptable indication. I was referring to the living standards in urban Korea, as that is the only reasonable measure, since it has progressed in the nations history whilst countryside conditions fluctuate, specifically they have deteriorated in the last 10 years.

This is due to blocades and constant floods and drouts due to the bombing of Korea 50 yeas ago when masses of areas of forest were destroyed and the land became more susceptible to flooding. Due to the blocaded there is not enough energy to produce sufficient quantity of necessary goods, in addition it is becoming very hard to transport any goods that are produced to rural areas or to run factories in rural areas as energy production is not at 10% of what it was in the 70's.

I would suggest that these figures are extremely difficult to assertain, and if the source is the DPRK they may likely be manipulated to please the pestering foreigners as to the success of their food 'aid'. The reason I am cynical of the food aid is that it would not be necessary if the U.S. relaxed or removed its blocades since it stepped them up in 1993 with its TWEA (trade with enemies agreement). A program that hinders any country trading with the DPRK without special permission, and also stops any ships leaving with goods for export from the DPRK. In effect the DPRK cannot export anything, and so countries will supply them with any resources if there is nothing in return. When the DPRK can trade it is limited.

However, housing is of a reasonable standard in the countryside since great construction work has been undertaken in previous decades, however in the last 10 years it has become far harder, since the U.S. stepped up blocades and the Koreans amongst the obvious problems with production could not gain the materials to construct dams and necessary countermeasures to the freak weather conditions that gripped the country since 1994 and still continue to.

In the urban areas however food can be easily obtained and living standards are good. Although electricity generation is still a massive problem, they can no longer produce as much and rather try to sustain the basic infrastructure rather than focus on further economic construction, indeed the economy has shrunk massivel in the last 10 years.

(Edited by Chairman Mao at 3:40 pm on Mar. 22, 2003)

[abstractmentality]

Thank you CM. Also, i was wondering about something else i read about people being imprisoned because they are born. a while back certain people, i believe political dissidents, were jailed for their being "dissident," as well as their children for a generation or two. i can not remember where i read this, but it doesnt surprise me since Kim Jung Il admitted to kidnapping some South Korean movie makers and attempted to force them to make propaganda for N. Korea as well as kidnapping some Japanese and forced them to teach Japanese to some N. Koreans.

and i also wanted to add that in certain sectors of N. Korea, a free market (http://query.nytimes.com/search/article-page.html?res=9804E6D7173EF932A25750C0A9659C8B63) type of system is being encouraged to happen. im not sure what you think of that, but the raising of wages 20-30 fold is never a good idea, and causes inflation, just as the article says.

(Edited by abstractmentality at 8:27 am on Mar. 22, 2003)


(Edited by abstractmentality at 10:29 am on Mar. 22, 2003)

[thursday night]

I think I can explain a little here, abstractmentality. The DPRK has instituted “Special Economic Zones” (SEZs) to kick start the economy which has slumped quite a bit since the collapse of the Soviet Union and the ideological reforming of the People’s Republic of China. It is in many ways similar to the mild reforms taken by the socialist government of Cuba, such as encouraging a tourism sector and allowing basic private enterprise (such as restaurants and such). The DPRK isn’t exactly a warm, tropical paradise so a blossoming tourist industry isn’t as easy to create as it has been in Cuba (although I would travel to North Korea!), thus the SEZs have been implemented. As far as I understand, these are temporary measures taken to help the economy along, and they are not nearly as groundbreaking as the western bourgeoisie media has made them out to be.

[abstractmentality]

thursday night:
The SEZs are not what i have a problem with, it is semi-similar to Lenins NEP, and if it is in the attempt to help the economy a bit, i can see how it would be a good idea. The thing that does bug me is the raising of wages 20-30 fold. this, done by the government, is simply not good economics, no matter what your stance on economics is. im not sure what the government was thinking when they instituted this, but the only result from such a raise is hyperinflation, something that will harm the economy greatly. if the government is instituting such measures of economics, then i have great fear of the control of economics that this government has, since these measures only result in harming the people. it bugs me that a government can be so wrong about economic measures.


(Edited by abstractmentality at 10:29 am on Mar. 22, 2003)

[Saint-Just]

'Thank you CM. Also, i was wondering about something else i read about people being imprisoned because they are born. a while back certain people, i believe political dissidents, were jailed for their being "dissident," as well as their children for a generation or two. i can not remember where i read this, but it doesnt surprise me since Kim Jung Il admitted to kidnapping some South Korean movie makers and attempted to force them to make propaganda for N. Korea as well as kidnapping some Japanese and forced them to teach Japanese to some N. Koreans.

and i also wanted to add that in certain sectors of N. Korea, a free market type of system is being encouraged to happen. im not sure what you think of that, but the raising of wages 20-40 fold is never a good idea, and causes inflation, just as the article says.' abstractmentality

I agree with what thursday night says precisely, in addition:

There are many stories about these SEZ, some say that they will never even be up and running because many consider because of the Korean government they will be doomed to failure from the beginning.

I've wrote lot on this before, and have used a wide range of evidence to back up what I say. I'll summarise a few of the things I have previously said:

Korea has a distinct lack of capital, since it is restricted in trading. These SEZ are designed to enable Korea to create some legitimate trading, the Americans will except few other methods.

The SEZ are a result of 10 years of severe economic decline; there is no other choice for Korea.

The SEZ are totally cut off from the rest of Korea unlike SEZ experiments in other former socialist states. They are right on the border with China.

In my conclusion of SEZ, Kim Jong Il is not using them to develope the economy but to revitalise it. Since Kim Jong Il has waged a 50 year battle against revisionism and he specified that revisionist countries are defined by the emergence of free market economics to a specific degree, I would imagine he will certainly not facilitate the re-emergence of bourgeois thought. It will be obvious if this does happen, it was obvious as soon as it happened in China and the USSR.


I do not know how dissidents are treated in Korea, certainly some people have suggested that they are not treated harshly enough. I would not advocate the children of dissidents being imprisoned. I have heard this rumour, but there was actually nothing to substantiate it at all, not even any fabricated evidence.

In addition, I am unaware if he did kidnap some film makers or any Japanese. I am not particularly worried whether he did or not, all governments do such things, and it is always for their own benefit. I do not view this as particularly sinister. The Japanese you are referring to, there were apparently 13 of them, I do not see why they would need to kidnap people to teach Japanese in Korea, it would be extremely easy for them to teach Japanese without kidnapping Japanese citizens, therefore I find this claim ridiculous. To further defame the validity of this claim it has been asserted that these Japanese were kidnapped to create some kind of sexual passion heaven for Kim Jong Il to enjoy, this is information derived from respectable bourgeois media. Thus I would suggest any claim such as this one is subject to wavering integrity.


Lastly, thursday night, Cuba enjoys strong tourism. Tourism in the DPRK is not in such a large scale as that of Cuba, however it is considerable. To see why you only need observe the beautiful city of Pyongyang and Korean culture, celebrations and entertainment. I have posted some pictures before, however you may have seen them and since people on this site seem to be against using up bandwidth, I will only do so on request, they are nice pictures though.

[abstractmentality]

"But North Korea quickly alienated almost all its aid donors. Hopes to win $1 billion a year in World War II reparations from Japan unraveled in September when officials balked at Japanese demands for the return of all Japanese kidnapped by North Korean agents." (see the above link to the New York Times)

for further information:
http://query.nytimes.com/search/full-page?...751C1A9649C8B63 (http://query.nytimes.com/search/full-page?res=9403E7DE1E3DF933A15751C1A9649C8B63)

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html...DA90994DA404482 (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F10912FE3C590C758DDDA90994DA4044 82)

"...landmark summit meeting features astonishing North Korean admission that 11 Japanese were kidnapped in late 1970's..."
"...extraordinary admission also reveals that six of kidnapped Japanese have died and one is missing..."
(link below)
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html...DA00894DA404482 (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F70C16FF39540C7B8DDDA00894DA4044 82)

http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~lj7k-ark/english/top.html

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/09/17/nkore...rea_japan020917 (http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/09/17/nkorea_japan020917)

concerning the people of North Korea and their "relatively high standard of living," here is an article written by a journalist that has been to Pyongyang twice:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/correspon...rre_nkorea.html (http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/correspondents/stpierre_nkorea.html)

if a government is to run the economy, it should at least know what it's doing. although i do not know a tremendous amount about North Korea and its economics, the increasing of wages 20-30 fold is an idiotic thing to do. if the government could not see what the effects of that move would do, then i have no trust in that governments economic planning.

(Edited by abstractmentality at 11:13 am on Mar. 22, 2003)

[Saint-Just]

Quote: from abstractmentality on 7:12 pm on Mar. 22, 2003
"But North Korea quickly alienated almost all its aid donors. Hopes to win $1 billion a year in World War II reparations from Japan unraveled in September when officials balked at Japanese demands for the return of all Japanese kidnapped by North Korean agents." (see the above link to the New York Times)

for further information:
http://query.nytimes.com/search/full-page?...751C1A9649C8B63 (http://query.nytimes.com/search/full-page?res=9403E7DE1E3DF933A15751C1A9649C8B63)

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html...DA90994DA404482 (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F10912FE3C590C758DDDA90994DA4044 82)

"...landmark summit meeting features astonishing North Korean admission that 11 Japanese were kidnapped in late 1970's..."
"...extraordinary admission also reveals that six of kidnapped Japanese have died and one is missing..."
(link below)
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html...DA00894DA404482 (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F70C16FF39540C7B8DDDA00894DA4044 82)

http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~lj7k-ark/english/top.html

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/09/17/nkore...rea_japan020917 (http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/09/17/nkorea_japan020917)

concerning the people of North Korea and their "relatively high standard of living," here is an article written by a journalist that has been to Pyongyang twice:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/correspon...rre_nkorea.html (http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/correspondents/stpierre_nkorea.html)

if a government is to run the economy, it should at least know what it's doing. although i do not know a tremendous amount about North Korea and its economics, the increasing of wages 20-30 fold is an idiotic thing to do. if the government could not see what the effects of that move would do, then i have no trust in that governments economic planning.

(Edited by abstractmentality at 11:13 am on Mar. 22, 2003)


Kim Jong Il apologised for the kidnapping of 13 Japanese. However, most of what he says to foreigners is in the interest of political wrangling. I do not care whether it happened or not. I do not know the circumstance however I am hardly shocked, as I said many governments do such things. It does not mean the DPRK is not a progressive and beautiful country.

That article on standard of living - I do not disagree with any of its facts although it is still biased. They do not contradict the entirety of what I have said.

I do not know what you are referring to on increasing wages 20-30 fold.

[thursday night]

What you must keep in mind when reviewing North Korean standards of living is that yes, there is many problems and food shortages etc. facing that country and so forth however it is not entirely the fault of the socialist government. A brutal three year war against imperialist invaders, a hostile enemy to the direct south and pointless American blockades have left many sectors of the DPRK paralyzed. What you must also remember is despite all this, the small socialist state has done remarkably well when it comes to vital services such as education, healthcare, housing and so on.

[abstractmentality]

Chairman Mao:
I never said that the DPRK was not progressive, but i will say that not everything progressive is good.

I believe that the writing of the journalist i linked you to contradicts what you say about their "relatively high standard of living." i dont know about you, but when people do not have food to eat, i dont see how that can be a relatively high standard of living. it will be hard to find an unbiased opinion on North Korea, but i think that Raymond Saint-Pierre did a good job of telling what he saw. his simple observations are what counts, and he says that "[e]verywhere, we could see people suffering from the shortage of food – in the fields, in orphanages, in the streets – emaciated babies and children, workers weakened by a very poor diet." i do not call this a high standard of living. this is not overly biased, it is simply what he sees.

The wage increases i speak of are what the government instituted a while back, as can be shown in the first New York Times article i linked to in my post about the SEZ's of North Korea.

thursday night:
I do not wholly blame the DPRK for its plight, i realize that their have been conditions outside of its reach (drought) that effect its economy and health as a whole. however, it does not give the economic planners much credit when it makes elementary mistakes in economics such as the wage increase. i have only taken a semester of economics and studied it on my own, and i know how wrong that economic move is/was.

Ok, so they have some good education, healthcare, and housing, i dont know much about that, so i will give you the benefit of the doubt and say that is all true. well, education doesnt do much if much of the population is malnurished and can not think to well. they had better have good healthcare considering the percentage of malnurished people they have. i would hate to see the statistics of North Korea without good healthcare. and housing is good, but when those people inside that house are hungry, it doesnt say much.

[BRIN]

Isn't the reason why n korea cracked the shits with america was because america stoped selling coal and oil to them back in 99 or 00 ?.Around then didn't america declare china its worst enemy

[Saint-Just]

'I believe that the writing of the journalist i linked you to contradicts what you say about their "relatively high standard of living." i dont know about you, but when people do not have food to eat, i dont see how that can be a relatively high standard of living.'

I was referring specifically to teh standard of living in urban areas, I explained why. I said there was famine in rural areas and explained why it is not the fault of the economic system of Korea. Indeed this has only been the case in the last 10 years.

"[e]verywhere, we could see people suffering from the shortage of food – in the fields, in orphanages, in the streets – emaciated babies and children, workers weakened by a very poor diet."

I have never heard an account like this, this is certainly the case in some rural areas, but not all. This as a general view of Korea in its entirety would be an abject lie, in addition no such conditions as these exist in urban areas to my knowledge. I have not seen any more bias actual accounts than this one.

'The wage increases i speak of are what the government instituted a while back, as can be shown in the first New York Times article i linked to in my post about the SEZ's of North Korea.'

I explained before about the isolation of these SEZ, its not going to have particularly great affect. A massive number of people would have to recieve wage increases to create excessive inflation.

'well, education doesnt do much if much of the population is malnurished and can not think to well. they had better have good healthcare considering the percentage of malnurished people they have. i would hate to see the statistics of North Korea without good healthcare. and housing is good, but when those people inside that house are hungry, it doesnt say much.'

I have already explained why those statistics are likely to not be accurate. In addition, it depends or the definition of malnurished in this instance. But this is no impetus to attack the regime, I have already explained why these conditions exist and that it is not the result of socialism in Korea. How for over 40 years did they provide sufficient food produce and in the last ten years there has been a dramatic exposure to famine? Suddenly their economic system is failing, is that what you suggest?

[abstractmentality]

Chairman Mao:
The journalist was telling about what he saw in Pyongyang, the capital of North Korea. maybe your definition or rural is different then mine, but a city with a population of 2,741,260 (http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/world/A0840623.html) in 1993 is not rural. that is what he saw in Pyongyang, and thats what he reported. Although he may be slightly biased, any report you hear from the government is going to be more biased then what you hear from Raymond Saint-Pierre. The wage increases did have an affect on the economy, just read the new york times article and a south korean economist will tell you that it caused hyperinflation. then, after the hyperinflation, they raised prices on things like rice 20-40 fold. do you realize what they does to an economy? i have no faith in their economic advisors.

About the statistics i gave you earlier: does the rural sections of north korea not count? are they less important people? i would say no, so they MUST be counted on statistics. and even if they arent, Raymond Saint-Pierre talks about how bad the living conditions are in urban areas as well. the fact is that little is known about North Korea, particularly because of its harsh isolationism. However, i generally trust numbers that come from the UN, and that is where those statistics come from. Yes, those numbers are a combination of many things, but one of those things is the isolationist policies of the DPRK (which can be displayed in some of the articles i linked to), as well as the economic controlers. But, they are reliable numbers from the UN, and unless you have been there lately, i would say the UN statistics are the most unbiased and reliable statistics around.

I really dont think that this discussion is going to go anywhere. you obviously have already made your mind up that North Korea is "as close a socialist utopia as possible" and arent going to realize that massive amounts of people are malnurished and need food, which places it far, very far from a "socialist utopia" in my opinion.

(Edited by abstractmentality at 8:41 am on Mar. 23, 2003)

[Saint-Just]

’The journalist was telling about what he saw in Pyongyang, the capital of North Korea. maybe your definition or rural is different then mine, but a city with a population of 2,741,260 in 1993 is not rural. that is what he saw in Pyongyang’

The article specifies that they observed this in the streets, however it depends on what streets and what city he is referring too. Suggestion that this is the case widespread in Pyongyang, would be, in my opinion, false. Conditions in the country from 1993 onwards are a testament to the severity of the U.S. blockades. As I said the primary problem of the economy is energy production, now at 10% of its level in the 70’s.

’The wage increases did have an affect on the economy, just read the new york times article and a south korean economist will tell you that it caused hyperinflation. then, after the hyperinflation, they raised prices on things like rice 20-40 fold. do you realize what they does to an economy? i have no faith in their economic advisors.’

When I tried to access this article at New York times, it requested a login, therefore I have not viewed it and cannot comment on it.

’About the statistics i gave you earlier: does the rural sections of north korea not count? are they less important people? i would say no, so they MUST be counted on statistics.’

You were articulating that the problems in the Korean economy were the fault of the socialist system of society the DPRK operates:

’ it bugs me that a government can be so wrong about economic measures.’

I have explained the precise reasons for the regression of the Korean economy, that it is not the error of the socialist system. I cannot comment on your suggestions of hyperinflation and economic mismanagement as I could not view the source you found.

I am not saying the countryside population is less important, but that to judge the state of Korea’s economic management at present one can only asses it from observing urban areas. This is because the government has lost the necessary infrastructure to develop and sustain the rural economic conditions, and as a result they are in great decline. Again, this is not due to the socialist system on Korea and I have explained this; it is due to the decay of economic infrastructure due to lack of raw materials and deficiencies in energy production. Therefore the strength of the socialist system and economic management of the DPRK can only be best be assessed from urban areas. However it is still unfair to judge the economic management of the DPRK at all since even urban areas have suffered extensively as a result of the blockades. Therefore the economic aptitude of the country can only be analysed prior to 1993. In this instance it also has to be taken into account that by 1953 the entire country had been decimated, and it was very poorly developed country at this point.


’However, i generally trust numbers that come from the UN, and that is where those statistics come from. Yes, those numbers are a combination of many things, but one of those things is the isolationist policies of the DPRK (which can be displayed in some of the articles i linked to), as well as the economic controlers. But, they are reliable numbers from the UN, and unless you have been there lately, i would say the UN statistics are the most unbiased and reliable statistics around.’

I have not yet visited myself, however I have a number of friends who I trust devoutly who have been there numerous times since 1992 up to this year. The UN cannot go to the DPRK and demand to carry out surveys, most likely these figures are from DPRK officials, and that is where I question their credibility. These figures may tell us that a large percentage of the population is malnourished, however I have said that this cannot be used to assess the economic system of the DPRK as it is the responsibility of other factors for these conditions.

’I really dont think that this discussion is going to go anywhere. you obviously have already made your mind up that North Korea is "as close a socialist utopia as possible" and arent going to realize that massive amounts of people are malnurished and need food, which places it far, very far from a "socialist utopia" in my opinion.’

I suggest that in the present world it is the most progressive socialist system. In the history of the world I would state that it is not. I acknowledge that of a population of twenty-two million, hundreds of thousands are starving, possibly up to two million. I would suggest that most likely there is shortage of food in many areas. However since this has only been the case since 1993 it is my opinion that this is not the result of socialism or the leadership of Kim Jong Il and the WPK.

Finally I reject your assessment that I possess a blind following of the DPRK that is divorced from its realities. I have had 10-20 debates on this subject in these forums, and I give you credit that your argument is substantiated and proficient. I know we will never agree on this subject and that there will most likely be little consensus following the conclusion of this debate, however this does not mean it is worthless or has not inspired certain thoughts in each of us.

[thursday night]

I’d just like to comment on the article that stated that the writer saw great suffering in North Korea. Whatever the case may be, the CBC (as a Canadian myself) can generally be more trusted than American corporate media – nevertheless it is hardly unbiased news reporting.

[abstractmentality]

Chairman Mao:
The reporter from the article i linked to specifically stated that what he say was in Pyongyang.

Also, i acknowledge that not all of the problems of North Koreas are soley because of their economic handling of the situation, i know that they have faced harsh blockades and even droughts. the north korean economic advisors do not have much say in whether or not they have a drought, so you can not really blame them for that. but what i am saying, is that from their economic handling of the raising of wages 20-30 fold, it does not seem as thought they have completel knowledge over what they are doing. yes, they may make some great decisions on the occasion, but they also make horrid decisions, such as the raising of wages. (the New York Times ask for a log in, but if you want to see the articles, you can create an account, for free, and then view the articles, that is what i have done)

if we assume that the UN can not go into North Korea and perform specific surveys (im not sure if they can or not), then why would the DPRK lie about the malnourished in its country? it seems as though that would only encourage hatred to the country, encourage outsiders to point and say "they are not doing things right, their people are hungry." why would the DPRK want to do that? so might say to get more economic aid. but i would say no to that, since in one of the articles i linked to, in which they could have gotten huge amounts of help from Japan, they withdrew when asked about the kidnapped japenese (this was a while back).

you are right, i dont think we will ever see eye to eye on this subject, but i am glad that this hasnt gotten into insults on one another.

thursday night:
concerning the reporter from the CBC:
he is slightly biased, but who wouldnt be biased, in either direction, when in North Korea? it is impossible to be completly objective while there, or anywhere for that matter.

the isoloationist policies of North Korea make it hard to know what is really going on over there, so when i read a report from a journalist that has been there, i take what s/he has to say, tone it down a bit (whether biased in either direction) and then have something that is more like the truth.

[thursday night]

As to objectivity, I believe that I began to educate myself on the North Korean situation in an unbiased manner. I had nothing to gain from taking either an anti-DPRK stance or a pro-DPRK stance, however as I did my research and talked to fellow leftists, Marxists-Leninists and rightists I slowly began to form my own opinion regarding the complicated issue (my opinion being pro-DPRK with a few reservations and qualms).

[Saint-Just]

'if we assume that the UN can not go into North Korea and perform specific surveys (im not sure if they can or not), then why would the DPRK lie about the malnourished in its country? it seems as though that would only encourage hatred to the country, encourage outsiders to point and say "they are not doing things right, their people are hungry." why would the DPRK want to do that? so might say to get more economic aid. but i would say no to that, since in one of the articles i linked to, in which they could have gotten huge amounts of help from Japan, they withdrew when asked about the kidnapped japenese (this was a while back).'

The UN says that the situation in the DPRK is terrible and greatly requires aid, and that the aid that is being provided is having a great positive effect. In those figures, it suggested they were high percentages and then said things were substantially improving with aid. I'm sure you can see what I'm saying, the DPRK gets more aid the higher the figures are and it will continue to if the aid has a very positive effect.

'but i am glad that this hasnt gotten into insults on one another.'

It would never turn into insults of each other, none of my debates ever have, nor will they ever.

Anyway, thats likely enough debate on the subject.

[abstractmentality]

thursday night:
objectivity can never be reached. this is a complicated philosophical question that has been taken on by a few philosophers. although you did not have anything to gain or lose, before your research into the DPRK, by backing it or not backing it, you had previous conceptions of things that influence the way you saw the DPRK. for example, if a new economic system were to arise that had never been seen on this planet before, although i would attempt to look at it with objectivity, my thoughts on socialism and critiques of capitalism would slightly influence the way i saw this new system, no matter how hard i tried.

Chairman Mao:
i can see where you are coming from with your argument. but, if the DPRK does take that role, then it is making itself looking like a horrid place to live. i guess how one interprets the benifit of getting aid relative to the negative of making your country look like a place where most of the population needs food.

[Saint-Just]

'Chairman Mao:
i can see where you are coming from with your argument. but, if the DPRK does take that role, then it is making itself looking like a horrid place to live. i guess how one interprets the benifit of getting aid relative to the negative of making your country look like a place where most of the population needs food.'

What kind of socialist are you? in terms of how 'liberal' you are, what kind of democratic system you pursue, and what socialists leaders of history you follow i.e. Lenin, Stalin, Castro etc. and whether you are a Marxist. What would you define yourself as? its evident I am a Marxist-Leninist.

[abstractmentality]

Chairman Mao:
I am a leftists. what brand of it, i dont know, and i dont want to label it. i am of the libertarian left, some would call me an anarchist or anarco-communist or anarcho-socialist, but i wouldnt call myself any of the above. to me, when a person becomes too dogmatized into any realm of the left or the right, they become too narrow minded, and are almost locked into one realm of thought. i am constantly thinking about the ideals i hold, about whether or not i should hold those ideals, etc.
i am no marxists-leninist. im reading a biography on lenin right now, and to be honest, im not too impressed. although, opinions can change, as i am not even half way through yet, but i doubt it.

[Saint-Just]

Quote: from abstractmentality on 4:56 pm on Mar. 26, 2003
Chairman Mao:
I am a leftists. what brand of it, i dont know, and i dont want to label it. i am of the libertarian left, some would call me an anarchist or anarco-communist or anarcho-socialist, but i wouldnt call myself any of the above. to me, when a person becomes too dogmatized into any realm of the left or the right, they become too narrow minded, and are almost locked into one realm of thought. i am constantly thinking about the ideals i hold, about whether or not i should hold those ideals, etc.
i am no marxists-leninist. im reading a biography on lenin right now, and to be honest, im not too impressed. although, opinions can change, as i am not even half way through yet, but i doubt it.

Interesting, thank you for answering my question. It may depend who that biography was written by, if written by bourgeois author, I would not trust it at all.

[abstractmentality]

i have heard mixed reviews about this particular biography. what i am glad is that the author does not seem as though has is coming from a Marxists-leninst perspective at all, and is not afraid to critique lenin. often i hear all of this praise of him, but no critiques. if i were to listen to only what marxists-leninst say about Lenin, i would think he were some sort of god. but he is not, merely human.

[Saint-Just]

Quote: from abstractmentality on 11:18 pm on Mar. 26, 2003
i have heard mixed reviews about this particular biography. what i am glad is that the author does not seem as though has is coming from a Marxists-leninst perspective at all, and is not afraid to critique lenin. often i hear all of this praise of him, but no critiques. if i were to listen to only what marxists-leninst say about Lenin, i would think he were some sort of god. but he is not, merely human.

I see, that ok if you have looked at the Marxist-Leninist view as well.