WHY?

[VermontLeft]

I understand that death is scarry and that life sucks and i get all the "opium of the masses" stuff, but it still doesn't quite click for me.

I mean its so fucking OBVIOUS that an invisble man doesnt live in the sky deciding whos a good jew or christian or muslim or whatever. I get wishing that there was something there or a nice set of rules to live by, but how can people seriously convince themselves that all this obvious crap is ... not obvious crap? :P

I mean theres got to be somthing more to it and when i ask religious people i know they talk about "feeling god" and shit like that, but come on, i mean people are smart enough to know that you canfool yourself into anything. I feel great on pot but I dont think that i've a "spiritual relationship or some fucking shit.

So what is it???

I dont think there would be too many religious dudes on this board. (I would hope not!! :o) but for the rational among us, how do you expalin this phenomenon? Why do so many ignore the obvious and believe in fucking FAIRY TALES???

[LSD]

If think, for the most part, you've got it surrounded.

People are afraid and religion offers relief. Furthermore, almost universally, people are religious from childhood, that is they are indoctrinated with superstition before they have a chance to fully develop their rational thinking skills.

Unfortunately, this means that when they do begin to critically analyze the world, they do so from within the paradigm of religion and do not analyze that construct itself. That is, the world view of "faith" has become so "normal" that reconsidering it would be as alien as reconsidering their humanity.

Not to say, of course, that they can't do it! I know from personal experience that people can and do break the shackles of religion ...but it's never easy.

Religion isn't just a belief structure, it's also a security system. It gives one a sense of "connection", both with a "supernatural" world "above" and with a very material community of fellow believers.

Beyond even the sadness of losing one's conforting illusions, testimony from the recovering "faithful" indicates that the loss of the religious community often hurts the most, especially when they are coming from particularly theocratic and inslular communities like the Hassidic Jews or Wahabist Muslims.

In the end, though, I think you simply underestimate the human capacity for self-delusion. We are more than capable of ignoring the obvious if we percieve the truth to be dangerous to our comfort. And as much as we rational may hate to admit it, religion is very comforting.

[drain.you]

1) Many people can't comprehend how the universe came from the big bang or that people don't exist before they are born. ts hard to get your head around and religion offers a simple explanation that is easy to grasp.

2) People need comfort. Many people need to feel there is someone watching over them, someone who they can ask for advise and rules to guide them. They feel that a supernaturual being can help them live a good life with little suffering.

3) People don't want to die. Many people can't accept that this life is all we have. They want to live forever but they don't want to be on earth forever, they want heaven, they want nirvana and such.

Generally speaking, religion helps people live life in a happy way. They don't want to accept reality of suffering and struggle that exists. Religion is a security blanket, it has explanations for the unknown, it has beings to look after you and it has a place to go when you die. People don't want to give this up. They want to believe.

I mean, from my perspective as an atheist, life ain't too great. I know that revolution probably won't come in my life time but I have to live on and eventually die and thats it. I just have to do what I can to help people in this life and this reality hurts, people don't want to see life as we do so they turn to religion.

[VermontLeft]

People are afraid and religion offers relief. Furthermore, almost universally, people are religious from childhood, that is they are indoctrinated with superstition before they have a chance to fully develop their rational thinking skills.

mmmm, thats probably true.

religious parents should probably not be allowed to force their children to buiy into their lies. i don't think that a communist soiciety should let parents ABUSE their children by filling their heads with nonsense. :angry:


1) Many people can't comprehend how the universe came from the big bang or that people don't exist before they are born. ts hard to get your head around and religion offers a simple explanation that is easy to grasp.

OK, but so do fariy tales and santa clause and all that crap.

I mean, simple isnt believable. the SIMPLEST explanation for everthing is just that it always has been this way, you know? like the universe is infinitely old and were just here for whatever.

but all this complicated shit about god and jesus and mohammed and moses and buddah and whatever ...i mean WOW, its just so confusing and shit, why go to all that effort if its about simplicity? :lol:


2) People need comfort.

3) People don't want to die.

Yeah I know, but wanting and needing and believing are different things. I would love to believe that theres some super spirit god watching me and i need comfort just like anyone else but i cant believe in somrthing that is so ridiculous like god or allah or whatever.

I mean yeah people look for comfort but why do they stop when they get to jesus? there are so many more rational (i say MORE) alternatives to 2000 year old myths about some jewish dude who got stuck on a cross!

why not look to philosophy or politics or something real instead of settling for stuff that makes absolutely no fucking sense at all. i get self delusion and tricking yourself but thats just ridiculous.

can you really jsut think that somethings true, because it would be better for your comfort if it was? is the human uncnscious really that powerful?

If so, couldnt you say that religion is a sort of mental illness? that its a psychological disorder like depression? I mean it makes about as much sense as suicide or bulimia ...maybe in a communist society we would give these people treatment and religion would be abolishd that way.

:unsure: its justa thought though, i mean i don't want to intrude on peoples right to think what they want, but thares a line when it stops being about thoughts and starts being really sick. I dont know if religion is over that line, but its gotta be pretty close... :lol:

[VonClausewitz]

Was it Freud or Jung that said that religion was a neurosis, I forget.

VermontLeft;

If you want to understand religion more, in order to fight it or whatever, read some early religious philosophy, I'd reccomend;

Thomas Aquinas, St Augustine, and Irenaeus.

They are theologians, and go into some depth, methinks it would help you understand why some people are religious to a point. They also deal with a lot of religious moral concepts, give you more ammo perhaps. Saying it's all nasty indoctrination is all very well and good of course, it just looks a little hypocritical when you're solution to people daring to have religion is;


maybe in a communist society we would give these people treatment and religion would be abolishd that way.

Treat them how exactly. Indoctrination yes.

[Sentinel]

Originally posted by LSD
And as much as we rational may hate to admit it, religion is very comforting.

I think it's funny, because I find the fact that god doesn't exist, and that oblivion is awaiting us, comforting and relieving.

I know that I don't have to worry, because one day it won't matter to me anymore.
And, of course, I can "sin" as much as I want.. :D

I'm very convinced that religion is comforting only to those who are addicted to it, often from childhood as said.

They can't imagine a world without a "meaning" because they are brought up that way.

I was brought up atheist, without a plug in my neck so to say. Therefore I grew up doing just fine without that soothing bullshit.

I basically thought that god might exist but who gives a shit. Recently, though, I've realised how much suffering and ignorance religion causes in this world and how important fighting it is, if we are to build a better world.

Everybody has the right to a free brain.

[Goatse]

WHY?

BECAUSE YOU TOUCH YOURSELF AT NIGHT

Well, anyway, yeah, people find religion comforting... however, thinking the way the world is is "God's way" and that he/she/it has a divine reason for it just delays the revolution.

(Although to be honest, I find being an atheist more comforting... now I don't think my grandparents are being tortured forever in a big pit of fire anymore.)

[Zero]

Well, look at the history books. There has only been about 500+ wars conducted in nearly every culture, spanning just about every languge... all in the name of their "god". I am proud to say that there has not been any war conducted for Buddhism... though I am into that so far as to become mentaly pure.

Besides that, I am an athiest. Heh, if people want to fight and maim and kill eachother in the name of some boogie man in the sky, let em. It will only let them see how stupid they have been once they finaly grow up.

[VermontLeft]

Treat them how exactly. Indoctrination yes.

:lol: so whats treating mental illness then? is it Indoctrimation to make people not paranoid or suicidal or whatever?

I mean the thing about religious indoctrination, as i see it, isnt thats bad cause its taught. its that its WRONG. i mean you can be taught stuff as a child and believe it and thats find cause the thing is true. Like your taaught that your a human being and that no one else has the right to touch your body and stuff (at least most kids round here are taught that).

isnt that GOOD? :unsure:

so if religion really is a mental imbalance thing, like anorexia or whatever then shoiuldnt we help the people who suffer from it? im not saying that we strap them to a chair and make them watch atheist movies or whatever :P, but theres gotta be some active way that we can fix them other than just you know telling them their wrong. cause that doesnt seem to be working!


BECAUSE YOU TOUCH YOURSELF AT NIGHT

:lol: :lol: :D

I sure do :wub: and the religious dont like it. why? cause they think that some invisible dude wrote a magic book that tells them not to. again see this doesnt make sense cause if the idea were comfort or simlicity or whatever then they would choose a comfort that actually made sense and that didnt have crazy ass rules about not jerking off!

<_< fuck, i just may never get this crap. man i wish that we could just get rid of this shit already so humanity could move the fuck on...

[LSD]

I am proud to say that there has not been any war conducted for Buddhism...

Tell that to the Tibetan peasants who lived under the brutal rule of the Llamas. The relentless oppressive economic war waged against them was as deadly and excrutiating as any 13th century Crusade.

Wars don&#39;t have to be conducted with armies and battle plans. As an historical materialist, you should understand this.

A general kills through the military power of his armies, an aristocrat kills through the economic power of his property. Do you really think it matters to the victim which means was used to effect his death?

Capitalism kills far more people in times of "peace" than it does with outright wars. It is the "peace times", the "stable periods", in which oppressive systems flourish. Because it is in those times that they face the least opposition to their institutionalized exploitation.

Buddhism&#39;s institutions, for instance, did their most damage when they faced their least opposition. It was not until the PRC invaded that the average Tibetan was finally able to learn to read. Not that I&#39;m endorsing the CCP, because I&#39;m not. But, excluding the Llama class, life definitely improved when they kicked the Dalai Llamma&#39;s fat ass out of his palaces.

And, tell me, if you truly are an atheist, why are you so "proud" of Buddhism&#39;s supposed "accomplishments"? Do you, perhaps, imagine that one can be a true atheist and still adhere to "eastern faiths"?

Despite its recent popularity as some sort of "eastern alternative", Buddhism is just as superstitious and just as irrational as every other organized religion. It doesn&#39;t have a "special status" because it descends from Hinduism instead of Judaism.

Atheism and materialism are about empirical rationality. They have no room for "nirvana".

[Hegemonicretribution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 06:44 AM
Was it Freud or Jung that said that religion was a neurosis, I forget.


It was Freud.


If you want to understand religion more, in order to fight it or whatever, read some early religious philosophy, I&#39;d reccomend;

Thomas Aquinas, St Augustine, and Irenaeus.
Don&#39;t read them, their works, especially in the first two instances, are exceptionally long and outdated.

You can get basic versions of their arguments online, although try and read responses to the criticisms you make, at least until the point where noone can address them.

Also religion exists as three things in my mind; crappy fairy tales, dated philosophical pursuit, and a whole miscelaneous area of human endeavor that is often far from most people&#39;s perception of religion.

[Zero]

o.0

I suppose I still have a lot to learn about the Tibetan history, thanks LSD.

I hope I can make it completely clear that I do NOT support any theology. No matter what the religion. Nor do I support Capitalism in nither wartime, or peace time, and I support Buddhism only to the point where I have seen its effects on local community (unhindered kindness, spreading of meterial wealth, fundraising for the poor) and also to clear my mind of stresses of the day. I also support its history of pacifism. I have yet to educate myself on Tibetan history, and within a Communistic society I would meditate only in the comfort of my house. I do not intend to "spread the faith" so to speak. I am here to learn, and to support the Communist cause.

As for Nirvana; I don&#39;t intend to destable my mind, nor do I intend to convince myself that I can somehow think myself out of reality. Though after I have started to meditate I have found myself more open minded then ever.

[LSD]

Keep in mind, there is nothing wrong with meditation. It&#39;s a useful and effective means of stress management and introspection. The problem comes when you bring a "spiritual" aspect to it.

Meditation may certainly improve your life, what it will not do is bring you closer to "nirvana". Nor, unfortunately, will it improve your "karma" or facilitate your "spiritual journey" on the "wheel of life".

What defines buddhism, as with all organized religions, is its set of dogmatic assertions regarding the nature of the universe.

Buddhism specifically and overtly rejects the material world and maintains that human life "must" consist of suffering. These positions are, admittedly, more theologically complex than my brief summaries encapsulate, but they are also implicitly incompatible with communism.

Communism is predicated on object materialism. Supernaturalist beliefs like "enlightenment", "karma", and reincarnation are fundamentally non-materialist and certainly unscientific.

If you want to encourage positive behaviours or believe in meditation as a personal therapy, that&#39;s wonderful. Let&#39;s just leave the Gautama-worship out of it.

[VermontLeft]

I didnt know that about buddhism :unsure: i guess it makes sense though, theres always someone gettin rich off of religion <_<

i mean theres probably really two seperate groups pushing for religion to stay, the idiots who really believe in the shit and the asses who get paid for it. i guess that some of those asses believe in it to, but i bet it makes it easier when it buys them a house&#33; :lol:

[Zero]

Heh yeah. People like Limbaugh, and those televangelists don&#39;t exactly help >.>

[Zak]

I can say from experiance that alot of religion in Asian countries comes from obidiance to the parents. Alot of cultural trends are like this. When you ask a person why they believe a certain way it is very very hard to get an answer. There of course are some people who have kept what I can only say is an extraordanarily open mind and learned to question these beleifs. Many people truely believe if you get your ear pireced you will be a woman in your next life. If you sit on a table you will have bad test scores. If you put socks on a dictionary you will be stupid in your next life. The list goes on.

To westerners these ideas sound ludicrous and are easily dismissed. But just try to think how many similar ideas are in your own culture that are hard to recognize because you are immersed in them. Epestimology is very important. Where does knowledge come from? Why do we believe what we believe? Very important questions. The simplicity of which are a trap to misunderstanding. It&#39;s easy to say "oh yeah yeah, I&#39;ve questioned that" but I find, with my self at least, I&#39;m increadibley ignorent and still only begining to understand things and realize how much of knowledge is only assumption.