Riots in Dublin

[Janus]

BBC News

Disturbances broke out in O'Connell Street in the city centre, where a unionist rally to remember the victims of republican violence was to start.

Stones and fireworks were thrown after republican demonstrators mounted a counter-march. The loyalist rally was cancelled as a result of the trouble.

Several cars were set on fire and up to 40 people have been arrested.

It is understood a total of 14 people were injured, including six police officers who were taken to hospital for treatment.

A number of protesters were also injured during the clashes.

The demonstrators said they would "not allow a loyalist march to pass".

Republicans threw missiles at police in riot gear.

It is understood the counter-march was organised by Republican Sinn Fein - a political party which broke away from Sinn Fein in the 1980s.

Sinn Fein maintained they were in no way involved in the violence.

The loyalsts who had intended parading along O'Connell Street staged a short rally outside Leinster House before returning north.

One of the buses carrying them home was attacked by stone throwers as it approached the border town of Dundalk in County Louth.

Ulster Unionist, Michael Copeland, who was on board, said the rioters had nothing to offer society.


Irish Prime Minister Bertie Ahern said the unionists should have enjoyed the freedom to demonstrate their views.

"There is absolutely no excuse for the disgraceful scenes in Dublin," he said.


"It is the essence of Irish democracy and republicanism that people are allowed to express their views freely and in a peaceful manner.

"People who wantonly attack gardai (police) and property have no respect for their fellow citizens."


Up to 1,000 people had been expected to take part in the Love Ulster rally to remember those affected by republican violence.

DUP and Ulster Unionist politicians were among those who had hoped to parade through the centre of the city, in a march organised by the victims group Fair.

A delegation was to meet the Republic's Justice Minister, Michael McDowell after the march.

Sinn Fein President Gerry Adams said the rioting was "entirely wrong and reprehensible".

"There is no justification for what happened this afternoon in Dublin. Sinn Fein had appealed to people to ignore this loyalist parade and not to be provoked by it.

"Our view was that it should not be opposed in any way and we made that clear. Regrettably a small, unrepresentative group, chose to ignore our appeal."
Democratic Unionist MP Jeffrey Donaldson, who had been due to speak at the event, said: "We have received a warm welcome from ordinary Dubliners, but its clear these republicans have come from north of the border and other areas intent only on causing trouble.

"They have done that and once again unionists through the threat of violence have denied unionists civil liberties."

Ulster Unionist deputy leader Danny Kennedy and Fair director William Frazer handed a letter of complaint to Michael McDowell.

Mr Kennedy said: "It's ironic that republicans are telling unionists that speaking rights are available to us in the Dail (Irish Parliament) and yet here were we denied speaking rights because of republicans.

"They completely showed themselves for what they are."

Mr McDowell said "acts of thuggery, brutality, cowardice and inhumanity" had been unleashed on the people of Dublin by "an organised mob".

"The only message these people have managed to convey to the people of Dublin and of Ireland is that sectarian violence is, once again, being unleashed against all of the principles of the Good Friday Agreement and the overwhelming wishes of the Irish people."

Irish President Mary McAleese said the rioting was "totally unacceptable".

The SDLP's Alban Maginness strongly condemned the republican rioters.

"It is disturbing that marchers have been prevented from peaceful demonstration," he said.

"This action of extreme republicans simply plays into hands of those of the unionist right who cannot conceive unionist rights being upheld in a new Ireland."

So what do y'all think of this. It seems that ever since the IRA disbanded, much of the violence has been started by the loyalists.

[ComradeOm]

I don't see any great connection either class struggle or the Troubles. A very Loyalist organisation was prevented from protesting in the centre of Dublin. Quelle surprise :)

It is interesting that Adams condemned the republicans though. Yet another sign, if one was needed, that he has signed on with the bourgeoisie. Love Ulster is a thoroughly Loyalist organisation with clear links to Loyalist paramilitaries and murder squad members. I'm only sorry that I wasn't there to take part in driving them off the streets.

[Janus]

I don't see any great connection either class struggle or the Troubles.
Yeah, I know. I was looking for a discussion on the future of Northern Ireland now that the IRA has disbanded. It seems that much of the violence these days is linked to the loyalists and I am very glad that there march was cancelled.

[Conghaileach]

James Molyneaux, a former leader of the Ulster Unionist Party, on hearing of the IRA ceasefire said "This is the worst thing that has ever happened to us".

Since the six-county state is based on sectarian inequality, any attempt to achieve equality for catholics has been seen as a threat to the status quo, and thus to protestant privilege. (From the founding of Norn Iron in 1922 until 1972 when the British implemented Direct Rule, it was a one-party state.)

Obviosuly the protestant working class have hardly had it great, but unionists always had jobs lined up for them - the Harland and Wolff shipyards, the civil service, the police, etc. During any period when class conflict erupted, the unionist bourgeoisie always played the Orange card and used sectarianism to keep the workers divided. They always used the Táig threat as a way of keep protestant workers under heel.

Now it's all changed. The shipyards are gone, equality legislation has meant that catholics are getting a better representation in the civil service and in the police (about 13% in the PSNI, currently - mostly as ancillary staff) and Orange Orders marches don't automatically get to go where they're not welcome anymore (in most cases). It was a rerouted Order parade that started the rioting in Belfast in September last year.

So now protestants are being "alienated" because catholic are getting equality. And everyone accepts this idea of alienation. It's like a bigoted sectarian dinosaur such as Ian Paisley being able to do successfully for 40 years what had Abu Hamza jailed for 7 years - it just goes to show what a tiwsted little colonial statelet "Northern Ireland" is.

[Conghaileach]

Here's an interesting article...

“Love Ulster”, loyalism and British policy (http://www.socialistdemocracy.org/RecentArticles/RecentLoyalismAndBritishPolicy.html)

[Intifada]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 01:25 AM
I'm only sorry that I wasn't there to take part in driving them off the streets.
My thoughts exactly.

[rebelworker]

Shit, just missed it, I arrive in Dublin on tuesday....
Oh well.

[Seven Stars]

I spoke to a couple of friends that were there. They were having a peaceful counter protest until the gardai attacked them. The blame for the violence rests solely on the march organizers and the Free State police.

Here is the CGRP statement on the matter:

The CGRP condemn the Free State government's decision to try and force an unwanted loyalist march throught the center of Dublin by British controlled murder gangs (Loyalists) masquerading as victims.

The use of the gardai riot squads to move peacefull protesters from O'Connell Street and the provacation handed out by the guards resulted in the riots that followed.

CGRP members were present and witnessed the usual uncontrolled violence inflicted on some innocent people by the thugs in uniform who in their predictable behaviour were responsible for the violent reaction by their disregard for who they beat on the streets of Dublin.

The CGRP wish to thank all Republicans who came out to oppose this march that sought to glorify those that bombed Dublin and Monaghan.

We would like to thank the people of Dublin for there support and participation in the protest especially CIE/ BUS EIREANN workers for their help, They lost a lot of co- workers killed in the 1974 bombings .

Today the people of Dublin stood up to the Free State government and refused to allow the Love Ulster parade to proceed.

The fault for the violence lies squarely on the shoulders of the rally organisers and the Free State Government for their inability to see that this parade was so offensive to the people of Dublin and the Gardai whose handling of the situation was wholly inadequate.

Their intent was to beat the Republican people off the streets. They failed and iniatiated a response that completely overwhelmed them.

We call on all Republicans to see the results of today's actions in Dublin and realise that together we can make a difference, divided we cannot!

PRO CGRP
[email protected]
www.cgrp.info

[Iroquois Xavier]

I was watching the news and a man come on and said the orangemen were running for their lives. what did they expect on six nations weekend and Ireland playing at home (great result for the irish!) they should have known there would be plenty of people ready to beat the shit out of them. i wish i was there i would have strangled the orange bastards with their sashes! haha!

[PRC-UTE]

http://upload3.postimage.org/684/photo_hosting.html

Largest riots in 30 years!

[rebelworker]

Heres a great article by a comrade from indymedia Ireland

Police Brutality (http://www.indymedia.ie/article/74528)

The press coverage here has been mostly outragous, pictures of rioters faces on the covers of tabloids saying "if you know these people turn them in" and stuff like that.

There was one good article by a preist blaming police brutality for the problems(similar to above) and the comrade who wrote the indymedia article was on one of the most popular radio shows in dublin this morning.

For anyone who is from Ireland on this board, Ill be here from canada for a few weeks in you want to talk politics and go for a pint.

just send me a message, also \ill be giving a talk on North American Anarchism at the dublin bookfair this weekend if you wanna come check it out.

From the ol' motherland,
rebelworker

[Niall]

the orange order knew the reaction they would get, and thats exactly why they done it.

http://indymedia.ie/article/74507

for a link to photos

[Niall]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2006, 11:43 AM
Heres a great article by a comrade from indymedia Ireland

Police Brutality (http://www.indymedia.ie/article/74528)

The press coverage here has been mostly outragous, pictures of rioters faces on the covers of tabloids saying "if you know these people turn them in" and stuff like that.

There was one good article by a preist blaming police brutality for the problems(similar to above) and the comrade who wrote the indymedia article was on one of the most popular radio shows in dublin this morning.

For anyone who is from Ireland on this board, Ill be here from canada for a few weeks in you want to talk politics and go for a pint.

just send me a message, also \ill be giving a talk on North American Anarchism at the dublin bookfair this weekend if you wanna come check it out.

From the ol' motherland,
rebelworker
i remember a sinn fein protest at the hilltop forts in crossmaglenn and at the barracks in the square at xmas a couple of years ago when the papers done the same thing, as did the tv. as much i tried, i couldnt identify anyone i knew. thank god

[the pen]

If we accept the analysis underlying this thread "that the riots were great because they they stopped OO scum from marching down O' Connell st" (paraphrasing) then they would have been one of the most open displays of nationalism and secterianism in the South in many years.

Luckily however i dont think they really fitted into your romantic nationalist analysis. The background to the riots is the increased alienation and poverty of sections of the working class in Dublin.

While many in this catagory do identify with nationalism and reactionary bourgeiose parties like RSF or organisations like the IRA, PIRA and CIRA this is has more to do with a sense of shared identity than any political analysis.

This section of the WC has become increasingly angry and alienated from society as they see themselves completely left behind by the "Celtic Tiger". This sense of anger is hugely increased by the oppression they experience from the state every day. Police brutality in Working Class neighbourhoods is an acknowledged, if rarely spoken about, fact of life. Recently a young man named Terrence Wheelock died in suspicous circumstancespolice custody and it is widely believed that he was murdered by the police.

From this perspective although the riots were sparked by the police reaction, and the OO provaction , the root of the riots was the anger and exaspiration felt by people in Dublin. In this sense it closely resembles the rioting in Loyalist neighbourhoods last September.

But even if we accept that the riots were an expression of underlying anger and alienation it doesn't tell us anything about the form of the expression itslef.

The form it took was naked sectarianism and nationalism. It wasn't based in any sort of understanding of Capitalism or class relations. Secterianism divides the class in Ireland. Historically it has been used as a tool by the Ruling class to break strikes and "divide and rule".

Although you might think it cool to identify yourself on the internet with the scumbags of the RSF and various nutjob nationalist groups, as people fighting for a social revolution by the working class we should address the problems of the working class on a class basis and not pander to secterian bullshit.



For a analysis of the causes of the riots of Saturday check out this great piece by a comrade from the WSM
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/74528

For an analysis of the Loyalist riots check out this good piece by Organise
http://flag.blackened.net/infohub/organise/news.php

[rebelworker]

I dont know who you are speaking too but \i already posted an article by an WSM er and spoke of the anger of the workingclass and police brutality as the cause of the rioting(that expressed itself during a nationalist event).

I dont think anyone on this thread has assosiated with the RSF though Im not from here so mabey that prisoners rights group is a front...

There will be a discussion on Radical republicanism at the anarchist bookfair(RSF is not included in this) this weekend, hope to see you there.

[the pen]

Hi Rebel Worker.

Sorry i saw your post but didn't notice the link.
I didn't mean you when i got nice and bitter at the end.
The people i was referring to were those that posted



I'm only sorry that I wasn't there to take part in driving them off the streets.


I am very glad that there march was cancelled.

[/QUOTE]
So now protestants are being "alienated" because catholic are getting equality. And everyone accepts this idea of alienation.


[/QUOTE]
Today the people of Dublin stood up to the Free State government and refused to allow the Love Ulster parade to proceed.


[/QUOTE]
i wish i was there i would have strangled the orange bastards with their sashes! haha!

Unless of course people here have a better sense of humour than i usually attribute to the leninist left.

[Iroquois Xavier]

Originally posted by the [email protected] 2 2006, 12:21 AM


i wish i was there i would have strangled the orange bastards with their sashes! haha!

Unless of course people here have a better sense of humour than i usually attribute to the leninist left. [/quote]
I would strangle them because they are dirty orange bastards and don't deserve to live. anyway it serves them right,they always walk around like smarmy bastards provoking republicans. They should be shot. ;)

[BOZG]

Iroquois Xavier,
You do realise that almost the entire Protestant working class would identify themselves as Unionists and would see Orange, Loyalist and Unionist organisations as their own to some extent, even if they don't entirely agree with their role or politics? To take a position of wanting to strangle all the Orangmen with their sashes would be taken as an attack on the entire Protestant community. Such attitudes are nothing but secterian, nationalist and anti-workers unity politics.

I haven't read the WSMs articles yet but I agree with le pen's post on the causes of the riots. I would assume that the WSM article is probably quite a good piece as well as I do have a limited respect for the WSM (well as much as I can credit to the soap dodging left ;) ).

"If you hate the Northy bastards, clap your hands"
"The I, The I, The IRA"

These were the character of the slogans and chants on Saturday, nothing but blatant secterianism. And they were being chanted by the hole crowd involved, not just isolated sections of it. To try and claim that this riot was merely opposing Unionist reaction is ridiculous. It was clearly nationalist in its character for a variety of reasons already outlined. And for those that would defend last Saturday and argue for a United Ireland, I fail to see how you plan on convincing a huge amount of Protestant workers that they'd be welcome in a 32 county republic when this is the attitude and sloganeering towards a few hundred Orangemen marching.

[Iroquois Xavier]

Now listen, just because i am proud of my irish heritage makes me nationalist? The British occupation of the north is oppressive and having these smarmy gits walking round with their orange sashes and bowler hats proclaiming their love for that freeloader queen doesnt help the situation. The British have no right at all to be in the north and they should get out and fuck off home. If i want to strangle them by their loyalist necks then that is my business but it doesnt make me a nazi. I am not intolerant of their culture they are intolerant of mine so they are the nazis, thats why they deserve to die. They started it so were going to finish it! :angry:

p.s. they wouldnt be welcome in a 32 county republic because if they controlled it do you think they would be inviting us round for tea and light refreshments? :rolleyes:

[caoimhain]

Personally I know well that Irish Republicans don't conduct themselves in a riotous fashion so I didn't believe any of the right wing media reports, media reports that were blaming Sinn Fein hours after the riot, even though Sinn Fein specifically told their members to stay away.
The piece below is from the IRBB and written by someone who was there on the day. Make up your own mind...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From the IRBB

Yeah .....

.....back a little over an hour from the Dublin counter-protest : and the way we are looking at it is that the loyalists and their pro-Brit buddies in LH succeeded in getting a violent reaction from some of those present for the counter-demo . I was with a group of six men (two of the sons and three of me mates) - we got to the Parnell Monument at just after ten AM : there was about twenty uniformed FS cops [all carrying batons up their sleeve , as we were to learn later!] and at least four SB filth , all keeping an eye on the three (yeah - 3!) RSF protestors that were there then , at that time !

Within half-an-hour , there was about 50 people (RSF members/supporters or just individuals protesting against the loyalist presence/ members of other political organisations) in the traffic-isle around the Parnell Monument - some had Tri-Colours , others had banners and placards etc . The atmosphere was friendly , not threatening - no sign of aggro : it was cold but dry , traffic driving by as usual , some of which flashed their lights/sounded their horns in support - number of uniformed cops now about fifty , with six on horseback - we spotted at least 12 SB filth , some of whom were trying to mingle with us . The cops had , by now , placed 4-foot high metal crowd-control barricades around us . At this time all was quite - a crowd of supporters had gathered to our left (outside the Ambassador building) and to our right (on the far side of the road , outside the internet cafe and down from that cafe , about 100 yards , another crowd of supporters had gathered outside Fraisers Pub ) - between us all , we numbered at least one thousand strong ! And , even though we were in four separate groups (all within about a one-hundred yards radius)
we all of us were kept behind those crowd-control barricades .
And then ..... a 'sing-song' started ! Very threatening , wha' ... ! The Irish National Anthem was sung , some then started singing the Fields of Athenry , whilst others were singing 'We Shall Overcome' - and , with a group that size , in the four different locations that we were in ,
the songs over-lapped , as ya would expect ! But THAT was the atmosphere at that time - about 12.20PM - good natured , but determined to show the loyalists , who were due in ten minutes (12.30PM) that not everyone welcomed them under their new flag of convenience .

Thats when things got nasty - the riot control cops (think mini-SAS wannabe's!) , about thirty of them at that point , dressed in black , carrying batons with helmets and perspex shields , moved in to remove the crowd of us at the Parnell Monument who , by this time , numbered
about 200 strong and had taken-up positions , with their placards and banners etc , across the by-now closed-off [by the cops] road junction - O 'Connell Street itself was not being blocked by us - we were just lined-up along that one side of it , but the riot squad wanted us gone from
there - we said no ! They lifted their shields chin-high , formed a straight line about three feet in front of us , drew their batons - and briskly waded into us , batons flying . And THAT , folks , despite what the media are now saying - was the spark that started the whole thing off .

A young-fella , standing about three feet to my right , went down on the ground , having got batoned on the head - before the riot control cop that hit him could withdraw his arm , it was grabbed and he got a fierce punch in the face by one of that fella's mates - the same was happening all along that line of 'us and them' . They waded in and , sometimes before they could land a baton on anyones face , they themselves got hit . With that , the uniformed cops , also with batons drawn , came behind their dressed-in-black mates to have a go at us - that's when the other three groups of anti-loyalist protestors broke through the ranks of uniformed
cops that were , up till then , managing to hold them back from where we were . There was , literally , hand-to-hand street fighting between we anti-loyalists and those two groups of FS cops - they managing to push us back a few yards , they we would get the upper hand and gain
ground , to try and get those bastards out of our faces . It was such a scene , for a good few minutes , that the cops on horse-back could'nt do anything to help their mates , because we were all inter-twined with one another , rolling around the ground - with us trying to defend ourselves from the cops , who lost all plot and just , for then , wanted 'revenge' on us for having the nerve to resist them - but they certainly did'nt get it all their own way . It continued like this for about half the length of O' Connell Street : from the Parnell Monument to the GPO . The cops got worried when they seen dozens of people running-up to the battle-scene from the O' Connell Bridge direction , all wanting to help us . That battle , and that is what it was , lasted for about 30 minutes , then the cops took up positions on the street and stopped coming at us .
A different crowd had , by this stage , gone running all the way down O'Connell Street on a looting and burning spree - but those that did that were not RSF members or supporters : they were the type that ya get everywhere at things like that - troublemakers , using the
opportunity to their own advantage . Anyway - at the GPO : the cops were in disarray , and they had stopped trying to attack us so , obviously , we had stopped defending ourselves against them , and we made our way back up to the Parnell Monument , just in case the loyalists might be on their way down . A crowd of about one-hundred of us stood at the corner of O' Connell Street and Parnell Square (with the Ambassador to our left) , nursing our wounds , ringing buddies , sitting having a smoke and a yap - but still willing to stand our ground and
let the loyalists know that they were not welcome to parade in a sectarian march in our city .

At around two o clock we got the word from some of our lads that the loyalists had been put back into their buses and had been driven , by a different route , to the LH/Molesworth Street Offices of the FS Administration - they had been advised to cancel their sectarian march !
It was over - for now , anyway !

We are all gonna hear (or are already hearing) a lot of half-truths/mis-truths and outright lies and FS propaganda over this event : as I type , Republicans are being given the full blame for it , as expected . But ask yerself this - how many marches/commemorations/demonstrations
have Irish Republicans held through Dublin (and other cities) - but nothing like this happened ?
How many Republican protests like that have resulted in riots on the streets ?
What was the extra 'ingredient' today that led to it turning into a street-battle ?
The answer is heavy-handed riot-control cops being deployed BEFORE there was a riot , and the presence , in the city , of loyalist thugs .
Bertie and his shower of lackeys now know that they cannot force us to accept loyalist bowsies on our streets . North or South .

Slan Anois !

[PRC-UTE]

EDITORIAL: RISKS, RIOTS AND REPUBLICANS

A German academic, Ulrick Beck, argues that economic and environmental
events, growing global inequalities, and insecure forms of work are
all contributing to a world where nation states can't control what
goes on inside their boundaries and increasingly no one can control
transnational risks such as terrorism, infectious diseases (BSE, bird
flu, HIV), or natural disasters, such as tsunamis and hurricanes. The
latter makes the case for an all embracing internationalism that puts
the safety and security of people and the earth before the relentless
pursuit of profits by multinationals companies. The former was vividly
illustrated by the riot last Saturday in the centre of Dublin, the
prestigious capital of the "Celtic Tiger".

Ireland's rise among the cream of the world's capitalist elite has
brought with it associated risks such as the transitory nature of work
for many people, poor housing, low incomes and status. None of the
mainstream parties is prepared to seriously challenge the risks posed.
The most radical of the mainstream parties is Sinn Fein. It used to
advocate a left wing alternative to capitalist market driven forces,
but those days are long gone since Sinn Fein leaders began to court
business leaders in the USA and Ireland. Sinn Féin's essentially
centrist position now argues for democratic representation and
acceptability. Sara Burke in Village Magazine has argued that "there
are no hard calls for higher taxes and no robust policies aimed at
reducing inequality or addressing the social and economic risks faced
by the people they claim to represent."

Their recent condemnation of the riots in Dublin just show how much
Sinn Fein have moved to the centre and away from a republican
socialist position they used to claim to represent. They joined in the
knee jerk condemnations of the riot along with the other bourgeois
parties; in particular honing in on the looting and mindless violence.

It is easy to be wise after the event. We in the IRSP had mixed views
among our membership about the "Love Ulster March" but are very clear
about what is the motivation behind Love Ulster (LU). It is a racist
organisation hating all things Irish and prepared to use the relatives
of Protestant victims of the Troubles in a cynical gesture to build up
support for the re-establishment of the unionist Protestant ascendancy
in the North of Ireland. It also has a close working relationship with
loyalist paramilitaries including the de-facto head of the UDA.

Therefore, our membership took part in a peaceful picket against the
march highlighting the distorted view of victims of Love Ulster and
the sectarian nature of the groups supporting the Love Ulster march.
Our members did not initiate or provoke violence on the day. Given the
use of victim's relatives by LU it was certainly not in the interests
of republicans to attack those same victims.

However, in the entire hullabaloo before the march a significant
section of opinion was forgotten about -- the Dublin workers and
families of the inner city. Loyalists had blown up Dublin in the past
killing the largest number of civilians killed in any one incident
during the struggle. They had been assisted by British military
intelligence in planting the bombs in Dublin. The carrying of British
regalia flags and banners was seen as a calculated insult to the
relatives of the victims of the Dublin bombs.

Hence, the pouring out of the pubs by the youth of Dublin affiliated
to no particular political party and angered by what they saw as a
calculated insult not only to their city but also to their
nationality. Who were these youths? We have seen them referred to by
some republicans as "scum and lowlifes", "hoodies", "criminals" and
"druggies". Maybe, but no doubt during the 1913 lockout in Dublin, the
poor of the slums and tenements who stood with Big Jim Larkin and
James Connolly, were referred to by the Irish Independent, then as now
the voice of lickspittle apologists for imperialism, in a similar vein.

"In the most recent analysis on income and living conditions, carried
out by the ESRI, almost one-fifth of the population were at risk of
poverty in 2004. Women, people living in lone parent households and
those living alone are at a higher risk of poverty than the rest of
the population. In 2001, more than 862,000 people (almost 22 per cent
of the population) lived on less than €164 per person per week.
Meanwhile, relative income poverty levels (the measure of income
inequality) increased from 15.6 per cent in 1994 to 22 per cent in
2001. Similar levels of poverty and inequality are found in Northern
Ireland.

"New research, just published by the ESRI in the 2004 Annual School
Leavers Survey, finds that those who leave school early and those who
do not go on to study are twice as likely to be unemployed than their
counterparts would have been five years ago. Unemployment rates are
highest amongst the least qualified school leavers: 68 per cent of
those with no educational qualifications are unemployed, while 29 per
cent of those who have a Junior Certificate and between 11 and 16 per
cent of those who have a Leaving Certificate remain unemployed. Those
most likely to be unemployed when leaving school are those whose
fathers are unemployed.

"This research highlights a worrying trend of increased unemployment
among less qualified young people, and reasserts trends found in
previous surveys on the direct links between educational disadvantage
and unemployment. It also highlights the risks that remain alongside
continued economic growth. These are risks that remain largely
unaddressed in this society." (Sara Burke)

That is who those young men were -- in Beck's word -- risks.
Disaffected youth are a growing "risk" right across Europe as the
recent riots among the migrant population in France indicates. Blinded
by the consumerist outpourings from television and the cinema that
glorifies the bling-bling culture, some look for the quick and easy
way to make money and so drift into crime and drug dealing. It is an
established fact that illegal drug-use affects most acutely those
communities with high levels of poverty and disadvantage.

However, not all disaffected youth delve in crime and drug dealing.
Many look for ways to challenge their anger against the system, which
allows casual violence by the Gardai against working class youth go
almost unmentioned. Can you see James Connolly condemning the rioting
in Dublin in 1913 or 2006?

Republicans and socialists have a huge responsibility to those young
people. Up to now we have failed to provide them with the leadership
they deserve. We need to challenge their energy, their anger, and
their idealism against the very system that oppresses them. Last
Saturday was not just about Orange boots marching past the GPO or the
Garden of Remembrance. It was not just about looting and mindless
violence. It was also about what kind of world we want our young
people to grow up in.

We need to provide them with a vision of a socialist world which will
overcome both national and ethnic differences and which can put before
the mass of the people the programmes and policies that challenge
capitalism and do not accommodate to it. We need to see our young
people not as "risks" but as the opportunities to change our world.

Sources: Village Magazine, Thursday, February 16, 2006

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 11:15 AM
Iroquois Xavier,
You do realise that almost the entire Protestant working class would identify themselves as Unionists and would see Orange, Loyalist and Unionist organisations as their own to some extent, even if they don't entirely agree with their role or politics? To take a position of wanting to strangle all the Orangmen with their sashes would be taken as an attack on the entire Protestant community. Such attitudes are nothing but secterian, nationalist and anti-workers unity politics.

I haven't read the WSMs articles yet but I agree with le pen's post on the causes of the riots. I would assume that the WSM article is probably quite a good piece as well as I do have a limited respect for the WSM (well as much as I can credit to the soap dodging left ;) ).

"If you hate the Northy bastards, clap your hands"
"The I, The I, The IRA"

These were the character of the slogans and chants on Saturday, nothing but blatant secterianism. And they were being chanted by the hole crowd involved, not just isolated sections of it. To try and claim that this riot was merely opposing Unionist reaction is ridiculous. It was clearly nationalist in its character for a variety of reasons already outlined. And for those that would defend last Saturday and argue for a United Ireland, I fail to see how you plan on convincing a huge amount of Protestant workers that they'd be welcome in a 32 county republic when this is the attitude and sloganeering towards a few hundred Orangemen marching.
Aspects of your analysis make perfect sense, such as the fact that we must unite our class across sectarian lines to make any real progress.

The bizarro thing is that you lay the blame on the nationalists.... you seem to think they should just lay down and take it. You let protestants off the hook for the entire problem, ironically by being even more sectarian! ("You do realise that almost the entire Protestant working class would identify themselves as Unionists and would see Orange, Loyalist and Unionist organisations as their own to some extent, even if they don't entirely agree with their role or politics?")

Any reasonable person can see that Irish nationalism is a response to Protestant supremacy and British imperialism.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by the [email protected] 2 2006, 12:21 AM
Hi Rebel Worker.

Sorry i saw your post but didn't notice the link.

ROFL! You launched into the Life of Brian rhetoric before even reading the thread in question. Nice! :lol:

[The Grey Blur]

It is interesting that Adams condemned the republicans though. Yet another sign, if one was needed, that he has signed on with the bourgeoisie
His point is that it's best to ignore these tiny-minded assholes than give them their front-page. Why do you think this march was going through Dublin in the first place?

Irish Republican and proud

[the pen]

The bizarro thing is that you lay the blame on the nationalists.... you seem to think they should just lay down and take it. You let protestants off the hook for the entire problem, ironically by being even more sectarian!

While i dont fully agree with BOZGs point I dont think thats a fair interpretation of it.


Both sides are secterian and i agree with you that much of the bitterness does stem from partition. However in the real world what is the solution.

Undoubtably Catholics in the North have suffered persecution and oppression. However at the moment the majority of the population of the 6 counties want the union. So as socialists are we really advocating the forcing the majority of a certain region to do something the dont want to. What do you expect the consequences of such an action to be?

Demographically the republician population is growing faster. In a few years they will be the majority. In this case, assuming they vote for abolishing partition and south is willing to take them, what do you expect the unionist community to do. They don't exactly have a good record on this score!

Oh and the goal of all this is what. A united Capitalist Ireland? Or is the theory that once we have alienated a huge section of the working class, created much bitterness, and obscured class politics we will then have the revolution?

Which ever way you look at it under Capitalism there are no solutions that can solve the nothern question. The only solution that i can see is to unite the working class on the issues that effect them as a class; Poverty, exploitation ect. It is this united working class that will take care of bosses north and south.


" Personally I know well that Irish Republicans don't conduct themselves in a riotous fashion"

yep because they are all upstanding clean shaven mass going young men that only want to free Eire from the shackles of oppression. Do you even tangentally connect to the real world? I think you are right though in saying the RSF didnt organise the riots.


" ROFL! You launched into the Life of Brian rhetoric before even reading the thread in question. Nice! laugh.gif"

emm... If you read the rest of that post you will see i explained i wasn't referring to Rebel Worker, i was talkin about the internet secterians.


" Now listen, just because i am proud of my irish heritage makes me nationalist? The British occupation of the north is oppressive and having these smarmy gits walking round with their orange sashes and bowler hats proclaiming their love for that freeloader queen doesnt help the situation. The British have no right at all to be in the north and they should get out and fuck off home. If i want to strangle them by their loyalist necks then that is my business but it doesnt make me a nazi. I am not intolerant of their culture they are intolerant of mine so they are the nazis, thats why they deserve to die. They started it so were going to finish it! mad.gif
p.s. they wouldnt be welcome in a 32 county republic because if they controlled it do you think they would be inviting us round for tea and light refreshments? rolleyes.gif"

I dont need to say anything about this one. Its a classic example of "<span style='font-family:Courier'>Autocritique</span>". :rolleyes:

Oh and for anyone interested in the ideas of anarchist that live in the general area check out

http://www.libcom.org/forums/viewtopic.php...der=asc&start=0 (http://www.libcom.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8241&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)
and
http://www.libcom.org/forums/viewtopic.php...der=asc&start=0 (http://www.libcom.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8277&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)

They start off well before getting side tracked by personalities and in jokes.

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by Rage Against The [email protected] 2 2006, 07:24 PM
His point is that it&#39;s best to ignore these tiny-minded assholes than give them their front-page. Why do you think this march was going through Dublin in the first place?

Irish Republican and proud
Do you seriously think that even ten years ago Gerry Adams would have approved of a Loyalist march down O&#39;Connoll street? Now he&#39;s standing with the liberal whingers going on about their "right" to protest&#33;

[PRC-UTE]

This actually had a bit to do with the rioting....


by Ciarán Barnes
23/02/2006

Organisers of a loyalist march through Dublin have said they cannot
guarantee that images of a man accused of murdering 26 people in the city
will not not be displayed during the demonstration.
Speaking to Daily Ireland yesterday, Love Ulster organiser Willie
Frazer said: “I can’t give a guarantee a photograph of Robert McConnell will
not be carried because I wouldn’t be against anyone carrying Robert’s
photograph.”

Robert McConnell was a dual member of the Ulster Defence Regiment and
Ulster Volunteer Force. He murdered scores of Catholics in the 1970s.
He played a part in the 1974 Dublin and Monaghan bombings in which 33
people died. Twenty-six died in the Dublin attack.
Speaking in 1999, John Weir, a former member of the RUC with whom
Robert McConnell went on murder missions, implicated him in a further eight
killings.
The mass murderer was shot dead by the IRA in 1976. Images of him have
been carried at previous rallies organised by Mr Frazer’s victims group
Families Acting for Innocent Relatives.
Despite the weight of evidence linking McConnell to at least 41
sectarian murders, Mr Frazer defended the killer’s reputation. “Anybody I know
who knew Robert would say there is no way he was involved in anything.
He was involved with the security forces and he helped the SAS and
stuff like that but a lot of people would say that was just part of his
job,” said Mr Frazer.
Relatives of those murdered in the Dublin and Monaghan bombings
criticised Mr Frazer. Margaret Irwin of the Justice for the Forgotten group
said his defence of McConnell was “very insensitive”.
She said: “We have very good information that McConnell was involved
with the gang who we are convinced carried out the Dublin and Monaghan
bombings.
“We believe McConnell was involved in up to 55 murders. There can be no
doubt he was heavily involved with loyalist paramilitaries.”
Up to 1,000 loyalists and six bands are expected to take part in
Saturday’s Love Ulster parade along O’Connell Street. The march is to start
at 12.30pm and is expected to last one hour.
Orange Order members will take part but will not wear sashes or
collarettes.
Yesterday morning, Republican Sinn Féin held a press conference in
Dublin at which the party unveiled plans to protest against the march. The
Continuity IRA has also vowed to disrupt the parade.
Love Ulster held a victims rally in Belfast last October. The event was
widely criticised because it failed to give any mention to those who
had suffered at the hands of loyalists and the state.
Loyalists paramilitaries such as Ulster Defence Association leader
Jackie McDonald helped launch the Love Ulster campaign last September.

[redflag32]

Organisers hope to hold new rally in Dublin on day British queen visits

Ciarán Barnes

04/03/2006

Organisers of the Love Ulster rally are planning to parade through Dublin on the same day that the British queen visits the Irish capital.
At a press conference in Belfast yesterday, loyalists involved in last weekend’s aborted march through the city signified their intention to return South.
They said the most likely date for a second loyalist parade along Dublin’s O’Connell Street was the same day that Elizabeth II would visit Ireland.
With a huge security presence guaranteed in Dublin for the British queen’s visit, Love Ulster organisers are confident that there will be no repeat of the violence that engulfed the city last week.
Forty people were arrested and more than 100 injured in the worst rioting to occur in Dublin in 25 years.
A date has yet to be set for Elizabeth Windsor’s historic visit to Ireland, the first by a British monarch since the founding of the Southern state in 1922.
Daily Ireland understands that, when the date is confirmed, Love Ulster will go public with details of its second Dublin rally.
Spokesman Willie Frazer said: “We would like to go back as soon as possible.
“But there is a lot of questions that are going to have to be answered by members of the Dáil.
“We want reassurances from them. We don`t want to have people batoned off the streets of Dublin so we can parade down through Dublin.”
William Wilkinson, another of the Love Ulster organisers, called on the Irish government to hold an inquiry into the Dublin riots.
“One of the issues that we will be pressing for will be an inquiry,” he said.
“For any of you who are aware of similar events historically, in Northern Ireland when civil rights marches were attacked, the government of the day then had the Cameron inquiry [in 1969].
“We feel that is the most constructive step that the Irish government could take. It could address on-the-ground, practical issues on the day of why this trouble was allowed to roll on.”
Taoiseach Bertie Ahern has said that the decision to allow another march would be for the Garda Síochána.
Tánaiste Mary Harney has said Love Ulster marchers should have the right to parade in Dublin.
Republican Sinn Féin has vowed to mount another protest.

[The Grey Blur]

Do you seriously think that even ten years ago Gerry Adams would have approved of a Loyalist march down O&#39;Connoll street?
Do you really think that ten years ago Loyalists would have marched down O&#39;Connell Street?

(this is the bit where you say &#39;touché&#39; :ph34r: )



Now he&#39;s standing with the liberal whingers going on about their "right" to protest&#33;
Everyone has a right to protest, doen&#39;t mean you have to take notice of them

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by Rage Against The [email protected] 4 2006, 11:03 PM
Do you really think that ten years ago Loyalists would have marched down O&#39;Connell Street?

(this is the bit where you say &#39;touché&#39; :ph34r: )

I&#39;ll save the touché until you tell me why Loyalists wouldn&#39;t have dared walk down O&#39;Connell St ten years ago? Perhaps because they knew that the IRA wouldn&#39;t tolerate it? Now that Gerry&#39;s gone "soft" they feel free to do what they wish.


Everyone has a right to protest, doen&#39;t mean you have to take notice of them
Leaving aside the matter of abstract "rights"; idiots and fools do not have the "right" to insult and provoke. Would you do nothing to oppose a neo-nazi or KKK march in the city?

[The Grey Blur]

I&#39;ll save the touché until you tell me why Loyalists wouldn&#39;t have dared walk down O&#39;Connell St ten years ago? Perhaps because they knew that the IRA wouldn&#39;t tolerate it? Now that Gerry&#39;s gone "soft" they feel free to do what they wish.
I demand my touché&#33;


Leaving aside the matter of abstract "rights"; idiots and fools do not have the "right" to insult and provoke. Would you do nothing to oppose a neo-nazi or KKK march in the city?
Ah, but they wouldn&#39;t be allowed to march through, would they?&#33;

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by Rage Against The [email protected] 4 2006, 11:15 PM
I demand my touché&#33;

I demand my answer&#33; :lol:


Ah, but they wouldn&#39;t be allowed to march through, would they?&#33;
Why not? Surely they have the "right" to protest? ;)

[BOZG]

Originally posted by Iroquois [email protected] 2 2006, 01:41 PM
The British have no right at all to be in the north and they should get out and fuck off home.
British imperialism has been attempting to remove itself from Northern Ireland for decades but because of their historical position of propping up unionism, they&#39;ve created a situation where withdrawal would lead to absolute chaos which would be a huge blow to British capitalism in Northern Ireland.



If i want to strangle them by their loyalist necks then that is my business but it doesnt make me a nazi.

The majority of the Protestant community in Northern Ireland would claim to support unionist or loyalist ideals, whether on an entirely superficial level or a hardened support for them and have a very legitimate fear of being herded into a capitalist united Ireland.



I am not intolerant of their culture they are intolerant of mine so they are the nazis, thats why they deserve to die.

How exactly is being intolerant of someone&#39;s culture equal to Nazism?



p.s. they wouldnt be welcome in a 32 county republic because if they controlled it do you think they would be inviting us round for tea and light refreshments?

And what exactly do you plan on doing with the million or so Protestants who are legitimately opposed to entering a united capitalist Ireland and would resist such a move?

[PRC-UTE]

The majority of the Protestant community in Northern Ireland would claim to support unionist or loyalist ideals, whether on an entirely superficial level or a hardened support for them and have a very legitimate fear of being herded into a capitalist united Ireland.

Nonsense. The OO is allowed to march completely peacefully in Donegal, on the Free State side of the border, because there is no issue of sectarian power over the catholic/nationalist community and they don&#39;t start conflits.

There is no justification to a socialist to say one part of the working class should resist integration with the rest of their class because they regard them as being inferior. You slip in the word &#39;capitalist&#39; before united Ireland, but that&#39;s not the immediate issue. The immediate issue is what Connolly called the &#39;carnivals of reaction&#39; unleashed by partition.



And what exactly do you plan on doing with the million or so Protestants who are legitimately opposed to entering a united capitalist Ireland and would resist such a move?

How do you consider their refusal to agree to anything except undiluted, open sectarian privelage &#39;legitimate&#39;?

We all know that a united Ireland is not even in the cards for the near future - the unionists simply refuse to share power with a party made up of nationalists.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

We all know that a united Ireland is not even in the cards for the near future - the unionists simply refuse to share power with a party made up of nationalists.

So, if that&#39;s true, where does that leave the struggle to free the northern counties?

[Conghaileach]

Originally posted by the [email protected] 2 2006, 01:21 AM
So now protestants are being "alienated" because catholic are getting equality. And everyone accepts this idea of alienation.

Seeing as you included this quotation as part of your argument of nationalism/sectarianism, I would hope that you would be able to actually argue your point.

[Conghaileach]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 12:15 PM
Iroquois Xavier,
You do realise that almost the entire Protestant working class would identify themselves as Unionists and would see Orange, Loyalist and Unionist organisations as their own to some extent, even if they don&#39;t entirely agree with their role or politics? To take a position of wanting to strangle all the Orangmen with their sashes would be taken as an attack on the entire Protestant community. Such attitudes are nothing but secterian, nationalist and anti-workers unity politics.
Yes, and anyone who wants to strangle the KKK on their own hoods is nothing but an anti-white racist.

[Conghaileach]

Originally posted by the [email protected] 3 2006, 12:14 AM
Undoubtably Catholics in the North have suffered persecution and oppression. However at the moment the majority of the population of the 6 counties want the union. So as socialists are we really advocating the forcing the majority of a certain region to do something the dont want to. What do you expect the consequences of such an action to be?

The six-county state was created for the very purpose of having a pro-imperialist population. Irish national democracy should not be subjugated to the demands of any reactionary section of the population, whether it be loyalists, capitalists, or whatever else stands in our way.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 6 2006, 01:13 AM

We all know that a united Ireland is not even in the cards for the near future - the unionists simply refuse to share power with a party made up of nationalists.

So, if that&#39;s true, where does that leave the struggle to free the northern counties?
It leaves republican socialists attempting to organise in ways that bring the contradictions within the GFA into the open. That&#39;s happening more as opinions seem to be polarising and we&#39;re beginning to see a revived interest in republican socialist ideas.

In the IRSM we&#39;re working on organising around class based issues and raising our profile, which seems to be picking up steam with recent projects such as a mural and more activity in campaigns and protests.

[the pen]

Conghaileach: "So now protestants are being "alienated" because catholic are getting equality. And everyone accepts this idea of alienation."


Seeing as you included this quotation as part of your argument of nationalism/sectarianism, I would hope that you would be able to actually argue your point.

I was waiting for a intresting argument but as you pmed me i thought i would come back in.

Seeing as noone made the argument that "because catholics are getting equality" protestants are claiming to be alienated, the implication of your argument in the context of your piece is although "protestant wokers have hardly had it great" alienation does not exist in Protestant areas.

I included your quote then because of its remarkably bad politics. Capialism does not simply exist in Catholic areas in the North. It also exists in protestant areas. If we accept this blindingly obvious fact, and recognise that Capitalism produces alienation and poverty, then it should be obvious that we will find alienation, exploitation, poverty etc. in Protestant areas.

Lets have a look at the statistics to see if the facts back up my theory or yours.

These are taken from the the esrc "bare necessities" report
-28 percent of the respondents have no personal savings and 24 percent lack access to a pension
-Of children’s necessities, 8 percent of parents could not afford new clothes
-502,000 people were living in poverty of a total population of only 1,690,000. Of these, 148,900 were children, 37.4 percent of whom are growing up in poverty.

When you break the poverty level down demographically you find out that
-36% of Catholics are poor compared with 25% of Protestants
-As Protestants make up 55% of the population the over all number of poor Protestants is close to the number of poor Catholics.

At http://flag.blackened.net/infohub/organise/news.php Organise have given a good analysis of the state of Protestant communities.

"The rioting was concentrated on poorer Protestant working class areas of Belfast, in areas that, like other working class communities, have gained least from the peace process and which have suffered worst from de-industrialisation."

"Traditional industries that provided employment for predominantly Protestant skilled workers have relocated to parts of the globe with cheaper labour costs and little in the way of union recognition.

This process has been deliberately exacerbated by the acceptance of ‘neo-liberal’ economic policies by all of the north’s major parties. From the ‘socialist’ Sinn Fein to the Social Democratic and Labour Party, the UUP to DUP, even the working class loyalist PUP accepts such economic ‘realities’. All of our politicians have encouraged a process that sees the redistribution of poverty, as opposed to the redistribution of the wealth created by working people for the benefit of working people, while Northern Ireland’s wealthy elite gets wealthier."

"Working class Protestants are feeling excluded, demoralised and they are losing out. Less than two in every hundred people in the Shankill – including mature students – make it to third level education. For many working class Protestants there is no way out of poverty or exclusion"

From these facts we have a few choices.
Firstly we can take the road of some on this board and deny that alienation exists in the protestant community. We can refuse to look at the world from a perspective of class analysis and simply see the 900,000ish Protestants as "planters" or "reactionary". This strategedy has the result of reenforcing the secterian divisions that plagued our country and offers no real hope for the future. On the plus side it produces lots of pseudo pornographic images of balaclavas and guns that keep nationalisitc computer bound teens "occupied" at night.

Alternatively we can fight against poverty, exploitation and Capitalism by uniting Protestant and Catholic working class people on the issues that unite them. On issues like the reintroduction of water charges or the postal strike, to take some recent examples. If we want to go further back we can look at the Outdoor Relief Strike of 1932 or the Textile strike of 1911.

Oh and Conghaileach

The six-county state was created for the very purpose of having a pro-imperialist population. Irish national democracy should not be subjugated to the demands of any reactionary section of the population, whether it be loyalists, capitalists, or whatever else stands in our way.

Whats this Irish National Democracy thing your&#39;re talking about? Who does it represent, how does it express itself?
What happens if the mystical innate urges of "Irish National Democracy", as divined by yourself, is "subjugated" to the wishes of the majority of the population?
And the "Irish National" part of it means what? A bourgeois democracy, a workers state?
As far as i can see it can only mean authoritarism or class collaborationism.

(edited to fix some spellings, link to organise&#39;s article and include the last question)

[Iroquois Xavier]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2006, 10:29 AM
How exactly is being intolerant of someone&#39;s culture equal to Nazism?
mmm? Hitler loved them jews, such a tolerant man?&#33;

How would i deal with the proddy bastards who oppose the united Irealnd?

Remove them from this world...no thats too polite...

KILL THEM&#33; :ph34r:

[BOZG]

Being intolerant is not the same as being a Nazi. Nazism is a reaction to a crisis of capitalism and used to prevent the collapse of capitalism and rise of socialism.

So you plan on massacring almost the entire Protestant population of Northern Ireland? You are nothing but a sectarian bigot.

[the pen]

Originally posted by Iroquois Xavier+Mar 6 2006, 01:41 PM--> (Iroquois Xavier &#064; Mar 6 2006, 01:41 PM)
[email protected] 5 2006, 10:29 AM
How exactly is being intolerant of someone&#39;s culture equal to Nazism?
mmm? Hitler loved them jews, such a tolerant man?&#33;

How would i deal with the proddy bastards who oppose the united Irealnd?

Remove them from this world...no thats too polite...

KILL THEM&#33; :ph34r:[/b]

This has to be a parody.
If hysterical ultra leftism doesn&#39;t work out for you there is always comedy to fall back on.

[Iroquois Xavier]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2006, 02:08 PM
Being intolerant is not the same as being a Nazi. Nazism is a reaction to a crisis of capitalism and used to prevent the collapse of capitalism and rise of socialism.

So you plan on massacring almost the entire Protestant population of Northern Ireland? You are nothing but a sectarian bigot.
I just love screwing with people, especially you BOZG man u need to lighten up&#33; :lol:

By the way does that mean nazis are tolerant human beings? :rolleyes:

do u think i&#39;d be stupid enuf to massacre orange bastards now that i&#39;d told u i wud?
i think they wud hav a number 1 suspect eh?&#33; :lol:

still just for the benefit of you i still have a disdain for proddys. call me a nazi cos thats why i joined revleft. :rolleyes:

[BOZG]

Maybe we should make jokes about lynching blacks while we&#39;re at it?

And your disdain for Protestants is based on what?

[Conghaileach]

Originally posted by the [email protected] 6 2006, 12:46 PM
Oh and Conghaileach

The six-county state was created for the very purpose of having a pro-imperialist population. Irish national democracy should not be subjugated to the demands of any reactionary section of the population, whether it be loyalists, capitalists, or whatever else stands in our way.

Whats this Irish National Democracy thing your&#39;re talking about? Who does it represent, how does it express itself?
What happens if the mystical innate urges of "Irish National Democracy", as divined by yourself, is "subjugated" to the wishes of the majority of the population?
"Mystical innate urges"? What are you, an 11-year-old girl?

My idea of national democracy, or nationalism, or whatever fancy title you want to give it, in no ways contradicts my internationalism. If I may be so bold as to quote Lenin:

"There is one, and only one, kind of real internationalism, and that is - working whole-heartedly for the development of the revolutionary movement and the revolutionary struggle in one&#39;s own country, and supporting (by propaganda, sympathy, and material aid) this struggle, this, and only this, line, in every country without exception." - The Situation within the Socialist International (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/tasks/ch10.htm)



At http://flag.blackened.net/infohub/organise/news.php Organise have given a good analysis of the state of Protestant communities.
There&#39;s a good reason why Orangise gets called Orange-ise. In the same issue of their magazine in which this article appeared, they republished another one on how great the 1974 UWC strike was.



From these facts we have a few choices.
Firstly we can take the road of some on this board and deny that alienation exists in the protestant community.
I never denied that there are many within the working class, regardless of whatever creed they may or may not follow, who are alienated. The riots in Belfast last September were caused because the Orange Tories whipped up sectarian tensions by claiming that the táigs were geeting everything out of the peace process because the Whiterock Orange parade was rerouted from an area where it wasn&#39;t welcome.



We can refuse to look at the world from a perspective of class analysis and simply see the 900,000ish Protestants as "planters" or "reactionary". This strategedy has the result of reenforcing the secterian divisions that plagued our country and offers no real hope for the future.
I&#39;m from Belfast. Any republican worth his or her salt recognises the contiuing historical role played by Protestants in the national democratic struggle, and of course how they conserved Gaelic culture. Christ, Belfast is the cradle of Irish republicanism, seeded by the majority Protestant United Irishmen.



On the plus side it produces lots of pseudo pornographic images of balaclavas and guns that keep nationalisitc computer bound teens "occupied" at night.
Right.



Alternatively we can* fight against poverty, exploitation and Capitalism by uniting Protestant and Catholic working class people on the issues that unite them. On issues like the reintroduction of water charges or the postal strike, to take some recent examples.
That&#39;s a nice little soundbyte. Which ultra-leftist sect do you believe will be spearheading this new attempt at unity on gas-and-water issues?



If we want to go further back we can look at the Outdoor Relief Strike of 1932 or the Textile strike of 1911.
Or the shipyard pogrom of 1920, or the progroms of 1935? In both cases these were sectarian pogroms against Catholics and radical Protestants.

Belfast in the early 1930s was being heavily radicalised. There&#39;s was a James Connolly Workers&#39; Republican Club on the Shankill Road and the IRA, and later the Republican Congress, were recruiting many protestants into their ranks - many of whom later went to Spain from 1936 to fight with the International Brigades. But for all the workers&#39; unity displayed in that period, the sectarian nature of the six-county state meant that it never took much to break that unity. The Orange Tories did their best to divide the workers again, and as I said above three years later there was another pogrom.

[the pen]

"Mystical innate urges"? What are you, an 11-year-old girl?

It was quite clearly a parody of the type of language used by those that look at the "nation" as having some sort of orphic nature.
Rather that seeing the "nation" as a human construct that developed due to socio-economic reasons you imbue it with some sort of higher reason for existance and feel that the wishes of ordinary people should be subservient to it.


There is one, and only one, kind of real internationalism, and that is - working whole-heartedly for the development of the revolutionary movement and the revolutionary struggle in one&#39;s own country

And you feel the best way to advance this struggle is to divide the working class in communities and "tribes".



I never denied that there are many within the working class, regardless of whatever creed they may or may not follow, who are alienated. The riots in Belfast last September were caused because the Orange Tories whipped up sectarian tensions by claiming that the táigs were geeting everything out of the peace process because the Whiterock Orange parade was rerouted from an area where it wasn&#39;t welcome.

I dpn&#39;t think you are being consistent here but it nice to see you are moving beyond the implications of your first post.
If we accept that both communities are suffering under Capitalism and we believe it is the working class that will bring about revolution, doesn&#39;t it make sense to try and unite the class on the issues that face them.
This isn&#39;t just a
a nice little soundbyte. Its almost class analysis 101.


There&#39;s a good reason why Orangise gets called Orange-ise.

Yeah your right. It&#39;s because there are alot of bigots around (and its funny the first time you hear it).


Or the shipyard pogrom of 1920, or the progroms of 1935? In both cases these were sectarian pogroms against Catholics and radical Protestants.

Yeah of course. But what does this tell us? As we both probably know employers were scared of this united working class and constantly played the "orange card" to divide workers.
To me it seems that when the class is divided by religous and community lines pogroms occour and the bosses prosper.

Oh and just to remind you i am still waiting to fill me in on the details of this "Irish National Democracy".

[Iroquois Xavier]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2006, 08:02 PM
Maybe we should make jokes about lynching blacks while we&#39;re at it?

And your disdain for Protestants is based on what?
Whatever you say (is this dude ok,guys?&#33;) :rolleyes:

their disdain of me perhaps?

[BOZG]

So rather than argue a class point and try and acheive workers&#39; unity, just tell them that you hate them and leave it at that.

[Iroquois Xavier]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 10:39 AM
So rather than argue a class point and try and acheive workers&#39; unity, just tell them that you hate them and leave it at that.
something along those lines, yeah&#33; :P

[caoimhain]

Originally posted by the [email protected] 2 2006, 11:14 PM

" Personally I know well that Irish Republicans don&#39;t conduct themselves in a riotous fashion"


yep because they are all upstanding clean shaven mass going young men that only want to free Eire from the shackles of oppression. Do you even tangentally connect to the real world? I think you are right though in saying the RSF didnt organise the riots.
I never implyed that republicans were &#39;all upstanding clean shaven mass going young men that only want to free Eire from the shackles of oppression.&#39; Don&#39;t try to put words in my mouth. I wouldn&#39;t be so small minded and sexist as to say that.

I mearly stated that they wouldn&#39;t conduct themselves in a &#39;riotous&#39; fashion. You don&#39;t have to be &#39;all upstanding clean shaven mass going young men that only want to free Eire from the shackles of oppression.&#39; to do that.

[the pen]

I mearly stated that they wouldn&#39;t conduct themselves in a &#39;riotous&#39; fashion.

ri·ot·ous Pronunciation (rt-s)
adj.
1. Of, relating to, or resembling a riot.
2. Participating in or inciting to riot or uproar.
3. Uproarious; boisterous: a riotous party.

1 + 2: Are you serously claiming that republicians do not and have not involved themselves in riots.

3: I go drinking with republicans caoimhain. Trust me when i say they are just are likely (if not more likely) to engage in "Uproarious" or "boisterous" behaviour as anyone else.
As a irsper i am sure you know this better than most ;)

[PRC-UTE]

As CDL said just recently, it&#39;s odd to repeatedly go over issues that were decided by communists over one hundred years ago.

The main line the "gas and waterworks" socialists are using here is that the loyalists have some astract right or concern that is justified in resisting a united Ireland that legitimises their sectarianism. Rubbish.

This was the reactionary position adopted by the bigot and leading reformist "socialist" William Walker. It is not the analysis of Marx or Connolly.

Loyalism is not a justified or legitimate expression of one section of the people of Ireland. It is a method that the British imperialists have used to remain in Ireland against the expressed wishes of the majority. As the IRSP stated, British imperialism is a past master of the tactic of divide and rule and has practiced such a policy in every colony it has occupied. Since the plantation policy of the 16th century, Britain has fostered division in order to make its rule easier. This policy is maintained to the present day and results in a divided working class in the six counties. Link (http://irsm.org/history/loyalism.html)

It&#39;s odd that some people will attempt to justify the six county state using the argument about democracy regarding the Orange, considering that the formation of the six counties was contrary to the Unionists&#39; demands&#33; They made the same threats then - we&#39;ll never agree, there&#39;ll be a bloodbath, Ulster says no, and so on, just like any fascist would against any democratic step forward.

The extreme growth of support for Paisley when the dominant nationalist party, (P)Sinn Féin have essentially retreated on the national question shows that unionist and loyalists fears are not about being &#39;herded into a united Ireland&#39; but the realisation that their sectarian privelages may finally be expired&#33;

Ellis writes in A History of the Irish Working Class (page 340)



Having demonstarted in previous chapters that Northern Ireland was not created out of religious bigotry but that religious bigotry was fostered as a weapon by which to create it, [emphasis added] I concluded that its basis on a conflict of class interests would be the fulcrum by which it could be overturned. The length of the war and, more particularly, the activities of British counter-insurgency groups with their random sectarian murders, propaganda and attempts to create and maintain polarisation between the two communities, has made any natural reunion or concensus between the Catholic and Protestant working classes impossible while Britain remains involved. The "myths" of the "loyalists" are, at this time, stronger than the realities of history. The fact taht such a bizarre throwback to the Middle Ages as ian Paisley can achieve widespread support is indicative of this. Paisley has demonstrated, particularly in his masive vote in June, 1984, that he is the unquestioned leader of the "loyalists". Yet Paisley, for all his ranting sectarianism, racism and medieval attitude towards the modern world, has demonstrated that the can rise to political realism as well.



And today Paisley is not just the leader of the extremist fringe of unionism, the loyalists, but the leading politician within all of Unionism&#33; Should we just accept this, too as &#39;legitimate&#39;?

Marx himself was not only a supporter of the Irish cause, but actively promoted it within the First International. He and Engels correctly identified domination of Ireland by England as the source of British chauvinism and corresponding backwardness in the working class movement of the British Isles. Marx claimed repeatedly that the class struggle was warped by the occupation of Ireland. He saw the cause of Irish national liberation as imperative and urged communists to put &#39;the conflit between England and Ireland in the foreground and to everywhere side with the Irish.&#39; Marx&#39;s own daughter, Jenny was also a financial supporter of Connolly&#39;s socialist republican party, the ISRP, which stood for national liberation and socialist revolution as intertwined sides of complete social liberation.

To this effect, Engels started but never finished a manuscript about the history of Ireland&#39;s subjugation by England as a case study of the diastorous effects of imperialism.

Lenin went ever farther, describing Britain&#39;s role in supporting the most backwards and reactionary elements of the Irish population, and violating every democratic norm in the process in The British Liberals and Ireland. (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1914/mar/12.htm)

[Iroquois Xavier]

The Truth is out, Ladies and Gentlemen.

[the pen]

As CDL said just recently, it&#39;s odd to repeatedly go over issues that were decided by communists over one hundred years ago


It is not the analysis of Marx or Connolly

and most of the last few paragraphs

This is why i find arguing with some marxists so weird. Arguments aren&#39;t won by name name droping dead figures and the fact that "communists decided something over a hundred years ago".
In the real world arguments are won by the merit of the ideas expressed. As Marx said
"The tradition of all dead generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living" ;)

Loyalism is not a justified or legitimate expression of one section of the people of Ireland. It is a method that the British imperialists have used to remain in Ireland against the expressed wishes of the majority.[QUOTE]

I am a bit confused about this. What is a "legitimate" expression. Who decides on it? I could understand if you said it was mistaken or reactionary but "legitimate"? Who decides on the legimitiacy of expression?

As i mentioned earlier the majority of the population in the north at the moment wish to keep the link with England. I disagree with them but don&#39;t feel that the south has any right to force nearly a million people to join a capitalist state they want no part of.

[QUOTE] British imperialism is a past master of the tactic of divide and rule and has practiced such a policy in every colony it has occupied. Since the plantation policy of the 16th century, Britain has fostered division in order to make its rule easier.

I more or less agree with this analysis.


It&#39;s odd that some people will attempt to justify the six county state using the argument about democracy regarding the Orange, considering that the formation of the six counties was contrary to the Unionists&#39; demands&#33; They made the same threats then - we&#39;ll never agree, there&#39;ll be a bloodbath, Ulster says no, and so on, just like any fascist would against any democratic step forward.

Not sure about the veracity of this. I&#39;m not saying its wrong but as far as i remember, public statements aside, the Unionists realised they couldn&#39;t hold onto the South so they settled for the north.

Historical accuracy aside your point makes no sense in the current context. At the present time the majority of the six counties wish to mantain the link with Britain.


The extreme growth of support for Paisley when the dominant nationalist party, (P)Sinn Féin have essentially retreated on the national question shows that unionist and loyalists fears are not about being &#39;herded into a united Ireland&#39; but the realisation that their sectarian privelages may finally be expired&#33;

As i said before this kind of talk stems seems to lay the blame the resentment in Loyalist communities on loyalists instead of on Capitalism. The Unionist working class historically have have had relatively priviliged position in the North.
However the de industrialisation and the huge decrease in official descrimination has taken away many of the opportunities that previously existed for Loyalists. Just like nationalist areas there is a huge amount of anger, resentment and despair in these commnities and this allows the secterians on both side to pit them against each other. Its either the Taigs or Prods that are getting everything.

As i mentioned in every post, the solution to this is to identify the real enemy, the Capitalist class north and south.


he activities of British counter-insurgency groups with their random sectarian murders, propaganda and attempts to create and maintain polarisation between the two communities,

This is brillant. Are you so blinkerd not to realise the actions described above can be just as easily attributed to the nationalist para-military groups.

Most of the second half of your piece is more name dropping and an attempt to draw a link between Marx and your party. The only argument that i can see in it is that Marx


correctly identified domination of Ireland by England as the source of British chauvinism and corresponding backwardness in the working class movement of the British Isles. Marx claimed repeatedly that the class struggle was warped by the occupation of Ireland

I like alot of marx stuff but, assuming thats an accurate representation of it, it has no relevance to the situation today. Firstly because i don&#39;t think British people are more chauvanist than any other group and secondly to draw a link between the supposed chauvanism of a builder in Sheffield and the occupation of the north is tenious to say the least.

Will someone from the IRSP please tell me what the"Irish National Democracy" that they are fighting for means. Is it an overthrow of Capitalism north and south then why not drop the nationalism and just concentrate on making links with the protestand working class based on class issues.
If this isn&#39;t the case what are your "brave boys", and "girls" of course, fighting for?

[Conghaileach]

Originally posted by the [email protected] 7 2006, 02:07 AM
Oh and just to remind you i am still waiting to fill me in on the details of this "Irish National Democracy".
Um, democracy in Ireland for the people of Ireland. Christ, it doesn&#39;t take a degree in rocket science to figure that one out.

[The Grey Blur]

I demand my answer&#33; :lol:
I forgot the question&#33;


Why not? Surely they have the "right" to protest? ;)
No man they don&#39;t - because racism is against the law

[the pen]

Originally posted by Conghaileach+Mar 8 2006, 08:35 PM--> (Conghaileach @ Mar 8 2006, 08:35 PM)
the [email protected] 7 2006, 02:07 AM
Oh and just to remind you i am still waiting to fill me in on the details of this "Irish National Democracy".
Um, democracy in Ireland for the people of Ireland. Christ, it doesn&#39;t take a degree in rocket science to figure that one out. [/b]
do you think that is in any way convincing?

What kind of democracy are we talking about? bourgeois, representative, workers state, direct democracy etc?

A bourgeois state north and south would be "democracy in ireland for the people of Ireland" in the bourgeois sense of the term.

As i said before why do you feel the majority of the population up north should be forced to join a Capitalist state that they want no part of or alternatively why do you feel stoking sectarian feeling is the best way to bring about a working class revolution?

[Conghaileach]

Originally posted by the [email protected] 8 2006, 10:27 PM
What kind of democracy are we talking about? bourgeois, representative, workers state, direct democracy etc?
I&#39;m a communist.

[PRC-UTE]

Originally posted by the [email protected] 8 2006, 01:00 PM
[[i]QUOTE]As CDL said just recently, it&#39;s odd to repeatedly go over issues that were decided by communists over one hundred years ago


This is why i find arguing with some marxists so weird. Arguments aren&#39;t won by name name droping dead figures and the fact that "communists decided something over a hundred years ago".
In the real world arguments are won by the merit of the ideas expressed. [/quote]
:huh:

I proceeded after that statement to explain in some detail why they were correct in their analysis and why it&#39;s still valid. I didn&#39;t take the merit of anything as a given but went into some effort to argue my case. Call that &#39;name dropping&#39; if you like, I call your response a lazy strawman attack.