Nasjonalism/nazism

[It'sNeverTooLateToThink]

Is there really any difference between nasjonalism and nazism?

[patrickbeverley]

What's nasjonalism?

[timbaly]

I've never heard of nasjonlism, i assume it's just a spelling error of nationalism. I believe in some scandanavian languages nationalism is spelled with a "j". If it is nationalism that you're talking about there are many major differences. Nazism incorporates nationalism into it's ideology. Nationalism alone does not equate to racism and being anti-jewish as nazism does. I don't want to go on with this explanation if you're not reffering to nationalism, so please clarify.

[It'sNeverTooLateToThink]

I'm sorry. I was talking about nationalism.:P

[ice-picked]

i thank timbaly for using the term anti-jewish and not anti-semetic
a semite is someone from the middle east not nececarilly a jew

[Free Palestine]

Originally posted by ice-[email protected] 20 2006, 07:59 AM
i thank timbaly for using the term anti-jewish and not anti-semetic
a semite is someone from the middle east not nececarilly a jew

What? Didn't you know? It's only racism when it's against the Jewish religion. Over here at RevLeft, malicious potshots about Arabs and Islam have become the latest favorite (and acceptable) form of denigration of a foreign culture. Just don't say anything about those poor plucky Jews.

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by Free [email protected] 20 2006, 09:22 AM
What? Didn't you know? It's only racism when it's against the Jewish religion.
Obviously, your just bitter :rolleyes:

I personally can say that I have issued warning points out for "racism" and it wasn't against jews. So, your comment is on a practical level simply wrong. Simply look through the Moderator/Admins actions threads and you'll see plenty of action taken against racists on the board.


Over here at RevLeft, malicious potshots about Arabs and Islam have become the latest favorite (and acceptable) form of denigration of a foreign culture.

Just let me or another mod/admin know where the racist comments against arabic peoples, are and we'll sort it out. Islam however, is open to as much scrutiny as christianity, Judaism, or any other religion.


Just don't say anything about those poor plucky Jews.

Feel free to speak about Judaism critically, in my personal opinion it's just as 'fair game' as Christianity or Islam. But if your going to be anti-Semitic, in the racialist sense of the word, then you can piss off.

[Amusing Scrotum]

Originally posted by It'sNeverTooLateToThink
Is there really any difference between nasjonalism and nazism?

Well, historically they have both been concepts introduced by the bourgeois to save the "bourgeois state". However, "Nationalism" was originally a progressive idea, where as "Nazism" has always been reactionary as fuck.

The first "mass Nationalism" that I am aware of, happened in around 1790 in France and the principle behind it was that the "Citizens of France" would "unite" to stop the feudal counter-revolution.

The "Citizens of France" also didn't mean people born in France, it meant people who identified with the French Revolution, the "bourgeois state" and "liberty". In this context, "Nationalism" - or "Patriotism" as it was called - was a "progressive" thing.

"Nazism" on the other hand, was introduced to "save" the bourgeois state, not from feudalism, but from Communism - workers power. Which immediately makes it a reactionary "idea".

All that being said, today in Modern Capitalist Countries were feudalism has been completely eradicated, "Nationalism" is most definitely a reactionary thing because it identifies with the "bourgeois state" which is no longer "progressive".

However, in places where Modern Capitalism has yet to emerge, "Nationalism" still retains a "progressive element" - see Iraq.

There are lots of subtle differences between "Nazism" and "Nationalism", but really at the present time, both are reactionary and the history of "Nationalism" from France in 1790 to today, really shows one important thing....

Times change! :)

[patrickbeverley]

Patriotism has always worried me. I don't know whether Nationalism and Patriotism are exactly synonymous, but Patriotism in any more than the most diluted form not only encourages prejudice, but is prejudice. Think about it. A patriotic attitude is something like this:

"I love my country and sincerely believe that my country is the best in the world. The people of my country are the best people."

My people are the best = other people are inferior = prejudice.

Don't believe anyone who says patriotism is your duty.

[LSD]

The key difference between Nationalism and National Socialism is that the first is much broader than the latter; Naziism is nationalistic, but nationalism is not nescessarily National Socialistic. That means that all Nazis are nationalists, but most nationalists are not Nazis.

That doesn't mean, however, that nationalism is not reactionary. It is!

But it's not as reactionary as Naziism and so a comparison between the two is unfair to both parties. The word "Nazi" has such a defined emotional connotation that accusing one of "being a Nazi" carries an enormous pathetic weight. Too enormous in fact, as people tend to dismiss such statements as they seem so hyperbolic and rhetorically laden as to be constructively useless.

Accordingly, it is best to avoid the Nazi comparisions when one can, especially when they are inappropriate, such as with nationalism.

There is plenty about nationalism to attack on its own. There's really no need to bring Hitler into it.


i thank timbaly for using the term anti-jewish and not anti-semetic
a semite is someone from the middle east not nececarilly a jew

Perhaps, but the word "antisemitic" still refers solely to Jews.

It's a quirk of history, but it's the way it is. Like with "homophobia", the etymology simply supercedes any dissective lexography.


What? Didn't you know? It's only racism when it's against the Jewish religion.

Your bitter sarcasm aside, FP, your problem is that you have still not acknowledged that antisemitic rantings are racist to begin with.

You do realize that if you had just accepted your error and apologized, you would probably be unrestricted right now, right? Instead, though, you decided to troll the board making petty pot shots at it and the mod team.

How mature. :rolleyes:


Just don't say anything about those poor plucky Jews.

Those "plucky Jews" have been the victims of brutal discrimination for most of the past 1500 years. And, as you yourself demonstrated with your "world Jewish conspiracy" nonsense, it continues even today.

There is no excuse for antisemitism and it must be fought wherever it is encountered. Period.

[timbaly]

Originally posted by ice-[email protected] 20 2006, 02:59 AM
i thank timbaly for using the term anti-jewish and not anti-semetic
a semite is someone from the middle east not nececarilly a jew
I used anti-jewish because I prefer the way the term sounds in comparisson to anti-semeitc. I realize that anti-semetic is synonymus with anti-jewish in our current society. I completely agree with what LSD typed:


It's a quirk of history, but it's the way it is. Like with "homophobia", the etymology simply supercedes any dissective lexography.

I used anti-jewish to prevent people from scruitinizing what it means to be a semite as well. however we still ended up touching the subject anyway.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Historically, "anti-judiasm" refers to laws against the religion like in much of European history. "Anti-semitism" in regards to jewish people is racislly, not religiously based.

The NAZIs were anti-semetic not anti-jewish because if you converted to some other religion but were from a jewish family, you were still ghettoized and opressed by the NAZIs.

When Marx's family converted to christianity they did so to aviod anti-jewish laws, restrictions, and stigmas of the day.

Not saying that anti-jewsihism is any better than anti-semitism, just that there is a historical difference.

It is true that semetic refers to many groups of people and not just jewish people, but as LSD said, opression or bigotry against jews on a "racial" or "blood" basis is popularly known as anti-semitism. It's confusing but it is better to use that term for anti-jewish bigotry and use "anti-arab" to describe anti-arab bigotry.

[Free Palestine]

Originally posted by LSD
And, as you yourself demonstrated with your "world Jewish conspiracy" nonsense, it continues even today

And as you yourself have demonstrated by citing a phrase I did not say, obdurate stupidity continues even today.

[Amusing Scrotum]

Originally posted by Free Palestine+Feb 25 2006, 08:56 PM--> (Free Palestine @ Feb 25 2006, 08:56 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected]
And, as you yourself demonstrated with your "world Jewish conspiracy" nonsense, it continues even today

And as you yourself have demonstrated by citing a phrase I did not say, obdurate stupidity continues even today. [/b]

LSD has misquoted you....


Free Palestine
That doesn't wash. One has to ask if the world Jewish hierarchy, by now fully committed to the creation of Israel, had a real interest in exerting its power to overcome American opposition to Jewish immigration? If the Jewish lobbies in the United States could offset the State Department’s opposition to the creation of Israel, were they not capable of overcoming the Administration’s resistance to Jewish immigration? Moreover, the United States and Canada were not the only feasible destination for Jewish refugees.

http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...st&p=1291961357 (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=42079&view=findpost&p=1291961357)

(Emphasis added.)

[viva le revolution]

Nationalism covers a huge boundary, with certain distinctions in between. Nazism, or Fascism in general, incorporate Nationalism as the essential aspect of thei rpolicies but incorporate racism, xenophobia and anti-working class reactionary doctrines as part and parcel of their agenda. Within Nationalism itself, there are specific categories and distinctions. For example, Nationalism in oppressed, third world dependant states is a progressive step and in that context Revolutionary. In the sense that it seeks to eliminate imperialism and is a step forward towards workers' rule in that state.
In contrast, nationalism in the first world is Reactionary, often trying to justify and legitimize neo-colonialism and rule of world finance capital.
Therefore to generalize nationalism in one broad category without giving thought to these distictions is a mistaken step.

[el Rebesnét del Tio Canya]

Nationalism like national liberation? Autodetermination? Or what? Because I think tha nazism is different...

But is important the concept of the word in the different languanges, because can have several means...

[hajduk]

Originally posted by It'sNeverTooL[email protected] 19, 2006 05:55 pm
Is there really any difference between nasjonalism and nazism?
there is no different beetwen nationalism and nacism, it is the same shit but only what is the different is the retorical speaking, but the point of nationalism and nacism is annihilation of others who not agree or not support this kind of autocracy

[Jazzratt]

Originally posted by hajduk+October 11, 2007 01:32 pm--> (hajduk @ October 11, 2007 01:32 pm)
It'[email protected] 19, 2006 05:55 pm
Is there really any difference between nasjonalism and nazism?
there is no different beetwen nationalism and nacism [/b]
Yes there is.

Also:

A thread from last year, why the fuck are you resurrecting it?