Israeli Conflicts

[Franco]

Scores of Palestinian civilians at the Jenin refugee camp in the West Bank are feared killed or injured in what Palestinian sources described as a real massacre by the Israeli occupation army.

Eyewitnesses said Israeli helicopter gunships strafed the densely populated camp with heavy machinegun fire as more than 30 Israeli tanks attacked it from four directions, amid a barrage of artillery bombardment.

"The Israeli army is carrying out a real massacre, they are targeting, men, women, children, shops, mosques, animals, homes and schools," said Khalil Abu Baker, a resident of the camp.

"They are intent on killing and maiming as many civilians as possible," said the middle aged Palestinian refugee, adding "don't believe them if they tell you they don't target civilians."

Abu Baker and hospital sources said that as of midday Monday, more than six people were killed and 65 wounded, many seriously.

Apart from the indiscriminate machinegun strafing which caused most of the casualties, the Israeli army is reportedly preventing or impeding the arrival of ambulances at the camp.

A spokesman for the Red Crescent Society testified that the attacking forces would only allow ambulances to reach an injured civilian one or two hours after a person is shot and injured.

"They want to make sure that as many of the injured as possible bleed to death before the arrival of paramedics," he said.

A voice of Palestine reporter at the camp testified that he saw Israeli soldiers open fire on a woman and her six children who were fleeing the bombardment.

The woman reportedly was hit with a bullet in the head and either died or was severely injured.

The Governor of Jenin, Ezzedi Manasra, accused the Israeli army of replicating the Sabra and Shatilla massacres at the Jenin camp.

"I'm telling the world that the Israeli occupation army is perpetrating a real massacre at the camp. The world can't just watch passively as this Nazi-like regime is ganging up on defenseless refugees and murdering men, women and children just because they don't belong to the chosen people."

The Israeli occupation army said the fresh onslaught against the already ravaged camp was precipitated by the explosion of a roadside explosive charge near an Israeli tanks, which caused no damage or injury.

However, it seems that the real goal is to kill and maim as Palestinians as possible in retaliation for recent Palestinian guerilla attacks that left 23 Israeli soldiers and civilians dead.

Israel says its army is trying to kill or arrest Palestinian "terrorists" who attack Israeli soldiers and settlers.

Israel and much of the western media consider as terrorist all forms of Palestinian struggle and resistance against Israeli occupation and apartheid.

Elsewhere in the occupied territories, the Israeli army overran the Rafah refugee camp at the southern edge of the Gaza Strip early Monday amid heavy firing on residential neighborhoods.

Hospital sources in Rafah said at least four civilians were killed in the incursion.

Since the outbreak of the Palestinian uprising against Israel's military occupation more than 17 months ago, the Israeli army and paramilitary Jewish terrorists killed more than a thousand Palestinians, a third of them children and minors.

In the same period, as many as three hundred Israeli soldiers, settlers and civilians were killed by Palestinians.

[RedSovietCCCP]

the Israelis are the true terriosts. I support what the plalestinins are doing to fight back. Israelis are nothing but imperialist that want to take back palestininin land
FUCK THEM ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Menshevik]

yes, that's why killing children is most effective in getting what you want. . . Idiot

[James]

Menshevik, i find myself agreeing with you again. Please don't follow what the militants do, on either side. Killing babies is wrong. For both sides.

James

[Menshevik]

Yes James, far too many people are blinded by their sympathy for Palestine as a whole, they forget what the Palestinians are really doing.

[BOZG]

I would be inclined to side with the Palestinians. They are trying to free their homeland from Israeli aggression but I do agree they are going the wrong way about it.

[Menshevik]

No one is denying the righteousness of the Palestinian cause, God knows I can't stand Sharon and the Israelis govt., but I cannot condone terrorism, no matter who commits it.

[James]

Exactly Menshevik, i support the palestinian cause, but not the way those crazy militants go about it. Which leads to a contradiction in my views. I also support Israel for defending innocent civilians...but israel also kills innocents...so its a never ending circle.

James

[Anonymous]

Tjhe real guilty of this conflict is relligion if people just opened their eyes they would see that relligion is fucking them!

[James]

Or possibly the way religon divides people, and teachers them that they are doing it the ONLY RIGHT WAY. SO can't accept others points of view.

[deimos]

I ave nothing against palestinians who kill soldiers or settlers. However, killing israeli civilians in behind the pre-67 borders is an serious atrocity.

[Umoja]

That means open season in half of Isreal, but regardless. Religion doesn't make these people millitant, opression makes them millitant. Islam says to defend yourself, but being opressed makes you turn to terrorism. Being opressed makes you want to kill yourself, knowing you kill others in the process. That's wha the terrorism is about.

[KRAZYKILLA]

Terroism is a VERY overused word.

[Sinistra]

I have only one thing to say about the article ...... BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA ... should i continue ?
i have read it all but when i sow that it started with : "plestenian sources... " i knew it was going to be full of shit . there was no masacre and there will be no masacre , Israel isnt the imparialist state bulshit that your all talking about , it is a state that wants to save the lives of it's people and to arrest those responsable for the killing of it's people . it diesnt want to concore Jenin , and it realy doesnt want to kill any babies , what the fuck would that help Israel .

one more thing , i have to thank "DEIMOS" for being so nice , i am so touched that he doesnt have anything against palestenians who kill setlers and soldiers (who arent real people anyway,they dont have families , friends lives , love... right? ) , thank you for being so human , IDIOT .

[redstar2000]

The campaign of terror waged against Palestinian civilians by the Israeli Government has a very clear and rational motive...to drive the Palestinians out. To make life in the West Bank and Gaza so horrible that the Palestinians will leave "voluntarily".

It's called "ethnic cleansing", remember?

:cool:

[Sinistra]

The israelies had given up the dream of living in the westbank , thow all the setlers .
I promise you that when the talks with the palestenians begin finaly , most of the setlers will be avacuated .

PLEASE YOU DONT KNOW SHIT , SO STOP JUDGING .

[Zombie]

"I have only one thing to say about the article ...... BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA ... should i continue ?"

no please spare us the torture. that just about shows ur level of intellect actually, blah.

"i knew it was going to be full of shit "

oh so palestinians aren't credible are they? may i ask why? what's making u say this?

"and it realy doesnt want to kill any babies , what the fuck would that help Israel ."

oh ok then please take a moment to admire ur work on this link, i think u'll find it backing ur argument 100% [/sarcasm] :angry:
http://free.freespeech.org/americanstatete...rismPhotos.html (http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/palestine/IsraeliTerrorismPhotos.html)
lol it's liking sayin the US never bombed iraqi civilian infrastructures.. ur level of blindness amazes me.

[Sinistra]

I didn't say that there were never any acsidents , yes there were some babies who were killed from israely fire , but you dont understand is that israel doesnt want to kill these babies , israel only wants to protect it's people .

i am amazed from the lak of respect you show for the death of poeple , using photos of killed babies for prapagnda . please .
do you think there were no israely babies who have been slaughtered ON PURPOSE , but yet you will not see the pictures of their bodies , because we respect our dead , it doesnt matter what the world thinks , we will not disgrace our lost ones .

[Blasphemy]

Sinistra, my fellow Israeli, i can only weep at your distorted comprehension of the occupation. israel's presence in the territories is not to protect it's people. it can do it best from its borders, and not from the territories, but to abuse the palestinian population. why? because Sharon has no intention to start a diplomatic peace process, and i think that you know that if you know that Lapid, Eitam and Liberman are in his government. he doesn't want peace, he wants war, because war has always been good to leaders. wars make leaders popular, while peace negotiations don't. for that reason Arafat wants war as well.

the occupation is a horrible, henious, awful and sinful crime against the palestinian people and against mankind. invading cities, using heavy missiles in crowded neighborhoods, setting up barriers which stop ambulances from reaching hospitals, shooting at moving cars which don't pose any threat to anyone and depriving of 3 million people their basic rights are all CRIMES committed by the state of israel. that is why the only answer is to:

http://www.gush-shalom.org/media/pics/refuse.gif

[Zombie]

Quote: from Sinistra on 10:13 am on Mar. 20, 2003
I didn't say that there were never any acsidents , yes there were some babies who were killed from israely fire , but you dont understand is that israel doesnt want to kill these babies , israel only wants to protect it's people .

i am amazed from the lak of respect you show for the death of poeple , using photos of killed babies for prapagnda . please .
do you think there were no israely babies who have been slaughtered ON PURPOSE , but yet you will not see the pictures of their bodies , because we respect our dead , it doesnt matter what the world thinks , we will not disgrace our lost ones .



oh please, spare me the drama. how lame, hey at least u respect ur dead? what's that supposed to mean?! oh! are u implying ure a superior race and those palestinians "full of shit" are not?! tsssk now now, accident eh? go tell that to the victims of the Jenin massacre, or the SABRA SHATILA massacre back in 1982 when nazi Sharon was defence minister..
BLASPHEMY said it perfectly (and u better get that into ur frail head once and for all) : Sharon and war are best buds. To have a peace threaty would be no good for his party and himself...

and fuck would you look at that ; i'm doing propaganda now. LOL!
1-u killed (http://www.ummah.com/inewsletter/massacres/palestine/index2.htm) that fucking baby and u better take a close look at it.did u see it? did ya? GOOD. i can show u dozens of other pictures (http://www.ummah.com/inewsletter/massacres/palestine/jenin.htm) like that. fact is : thousands of palestinians civils were shot in cold blood, no fucking accident so stop *****ing at how his Holiness Sharon is trying to protect its people.
2-I DON'T REMEMBER ever taking sides with the Palestinians so stop *****ing bout that too. (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=11&topic=3104&start=40)
both sides are equally murderers, when will u ever wake up, i wonder. if u were trying to protect ur land, then i guess the palestinians WERE TOO. if u're smart enough u'll figure out what i said. if not, well too bad for u.

blasphemy, u said it better than i ever could.. thank you.


(Edited by Zombie at 1:42 pm on Mar. 20, 2003)

[El Brujo]

Quote: from Sinistra on 11:13 pm on Mar. 20, 2003
I didn't say that there were never any acsidents , yes there were some babies who were killed from israely fire , but you dont understand is that israel doesnt want to kill these babies , israel only wants to protect it's people .

i am amazed from the lak of respect you show for the death of poeple , using photos of killed babies for prapagnda . please .
do you think there were no israely babies who have been slaughtered ON PURPOSE , but yet you will not see the pictures of their bodies , because we respect our dead , it doesnt matter what the world thinks , we will not disgrace our lost ones .



Zionist filth. The Israelite babies killed were not done so by the official Palestinian freedom fighters but by individual Palestinian terrorists. The Palestinian babies killed are done so by YOUR GOVERNMENT. In other words legal murder. How can you justify a fucking governments retaliatory violence on civillians as "protecting their people"?

[Zombie]

27 Palestinians killed so far this week (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=11&topic=3188) reported by CiaranB

(Edited by Zombie at 4:06 pm on Mar. 20, 2003)

[Sinistra]

Tell me ZOMBIE .
how many of your friends died ? how many of them were murdered .
trust me when you go to your friend's funeral , who was murdered because he comited the utimate crime : riding a buss , you will understand what israel is doing in the teretories .
Yes i saw the baby picture , but will not show you what was left of my friend . rip .

blasphemy you fucking refusnik , respect the soldiers that are trying tp protect you , every time you get of a buss , a pub , a cafe alive , it is because our soldiers ... and your calling them to refuse . yes i know that the ocupation brings many dificalties to the palestenians , but they should understand that it is because the are the haiven for terorists .

p.s : sabra and shatila wasn't comited by the IDF , it was commited by lebanese militia .

p.s EL BRUJO , what do you mean by "official palestenian freedome fighters" ?

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Sinistra I regret if one of you're friends have died, I know too how it feels to see beloved ones die in front of your eyes and see their guts fly out.

But look it also from the other side, while you feel more and more hatred towards Palestinians for your killed friends, the Palestinians feel the same, every time that they ambulances come late, because of roadblocks. Every time one of their friends die, every time they get a curfew, every time the media is thrown out. Every time that they are oppressed their hatred grows more and more.

You, member of the Isreaeli state, the ones who have initiative in this matter can decide if this will become a massacre or peace.

Furthermore I respect really much the refuseniks. (Zionist) Colonists don't deserve respect or protection, like you would place a village full of SS doctors and soldiers in an area full of Jews. That's asking for provocation.

I must admit that I don't respect the state Israel, that doesn't mean that I hate the people!

A state founded and based on race and religious differences doesn't deserve to excist.

[deimos]

I also respect the refusniks very much. these ppl have to be very brave to refuse in the israeli society.
As CCCP said it, the israeli have the power. Tey are the only ones who can evacuate the settlements. the israeli government complains that the palestinian policemen don't go after the terorists. How can they If they risk to be shot everytime they go out of their HQ!

A state founded and based on race and religious differences doesn't deserve to excist.
Every people should have its state. But in Israel the problem was that palestine already had its population. Palestine was simply the wrong area to found a new state.

[Zombie]

Quote: from Sinistra on 9:38 am on Mar. 21, 2003
Tell me ZOMBIE .
how many of your friends died ? how many of them were murdered .
trust me when you go to your friend's funeral , who was murdered because he comited the utimate crime : riding a buss , you will understand what israel is doing in the teretories .
Yes i saw the baby picture , but will not show you what was left of my friend . rip .

blasphemy you fucking refusnik , respect the soldiers that are trying tp protect you , every time you get of a buss , a pub , a cafe alive , it is because our soldiers ... and your calling them to refuse . yes i know that the ocupation brings many dificalties to the palestenians , but they should understand that it is because the are the haiven for terorists .

p.s : sabra and shatila wasn't comited by the IDF , it was commited by lebanese militia .

p.s EL BRUJO , what do you mean by "official palestenian freedome fighters" ?



i'm actually surprised at ur response...
indeed, sabra and shatila was commited by some 200 zionists friendly, lebanese militia, but u seem to forget under whose orders they were... ARIEL SHARON. i rest my case ur honor.

if ur friend committed the ultimate crime by riding a bus, then i guess those palestinian children committed an even more capital crime : LIVING ON THEIR LAND.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Quote: from deimos on 3:57 pm on Mar. 21, 2003


A state founded and based on race and religious differences doesn't deserve to excist.
Every people should have its state. But in Israel the problem was that palestine already had its population. Palestine was simply the wrong area to found a new state.


I agree on your whole post, except the little piece above.

We are all equal,we are the same, we should live together, so why should we have different states?

[Zombie]

We are all equal,we are the same, we should live together, so why should we have different states?
could you please elaborate just a tiny bit on that statement of yours...why don't u agree that Palestine and Israel should be two distinctively separated states?(if what i understood is correct)
thx

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

why should we let us seperate in different states?

But before we even reach to a state in which there is enough tolerance in the world that we could put Palestinians and Israeli's together, we have to change the world.

Or else you would get a mass slaughter.

So for now I think that there should come a Palestinian and an Israeli state, under leftist government who bring the 2 nations together.

This could serve as an example for other nations to unite, afterall we are all humans.

[Zombie]

Allow me to share my (somewhat basic?)view as to why, a Palestinian state wouldn't work right now, let alone a comon state for both parties.

the level of hatred between both parties is growing ever since the first intifada broke out, even well before that (somewhere along when the first israelis settlers came to palestine).
as someone said on this forum, peace wouldn't be profitable to a leader. Sharon and Arafat are keen on letting the violence (from both sides) keep the flames of hatred alive. They killed Rabin, a few years back, in order to stop the peace process. Thus, war, as u may well know, is profitable to leaders and their (political) parties... the israelis gather around Sharon (83% of them, in 2002) while the palestinians gather around Arafat. Through propaganda, everyday clashes between both populations, and the bloody history of the region, Palestinians and Israelis are somewhat repugnant to one another.(i.e. in 2002, 74% of the Israelis believe that Israel should not conduct substantive negotiations with Arafat)

You can see understand my point by looking at people such as sinistra, who thinks that terrorism comes only from the palestinians side, while ignoring the terrible actions his/her government is doing on their part. And if i show him/her a picture of a baby shot dead by Israeli soldiers, I'm considered doing propaganda, and furthermore that I don't respect the dead!
If we had more moderate people like Blasphemy, i think we'd have a very good chance of getting overall peace in the region, as both populations get to know the real truth, and get to understand eachother.
Sadly, those suicide bombers and the israeli retaliations aren't helping the situation, but i will not condemn neither actions, nor acclaim them. It's just sad.
There's too much hate.

Keep in mind that a unified nation is theoretically improbable if not extremely difficult to achieve, both populations having different cultures, different backgrounds, different institutions, different religion...
For example, the question as to who would be running the main gov would never be resolved (etcetc).. u're creating more harm than good there...

(Edited by Zombie at 8:45 pm on Mar. 21, 2003)

[Sinistra]

ZOMBIE .

If you knew that there was this man , who is going to kill 20 people . would you risk his neighbours inorder to stop him , or would you just let him explode in a cafe 100 meters from you , and your beoved ones .

I had never said that i support the setlers . but still how dare you compare them you the Nazies .

Israel isn't based on racism , hatred ... fact : i am not Jewish , and i am equal like every other sitecen .

Isarel isn't the one that should change here , it is the palestenians who have to change , when they will stop driving there youngs to become "matyrs" , when they stop talking about Jihad , when they would stop marching around with there guns promising more teror atacks ... then , only then there would be place for talking ... as long as this doesnt happen i have to be sure that more friends of mine will die .

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Guess what?!

The Palestinians want you to change!

Are you going to wait for a never coming move and let the population die in an enternal political struggle for votes and power?

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Zombie

I couldn't agree more on your post. But I believe that we can unite the 2 nations and can behave tolerant towards each other.

We have to do something, we can't just keep hoping that someday it all turns out well, no instead the situation is getting worser with every death, every frustration, every intifada, every ocuppation of the Palestinian teritorries, every day.

By not trusting the current politicians anymore. Instead we should propagandize our view of an tolerant Palestinian and Israeli people, we should change the people, by showing that there is another way. All they've heard untill now is that picking up arms is the best way.

If we could manage to change the people state of mind on this matter, we could start a single united leftist state.

Indeed we need more people, like Blasphemy, so let's start recruiting them.

[Sinistra]

Well guess what , because of people like blasphemy the situation is like this .
we havve tried negotiating with this palestenian leadership , we have also given them arms inorder to form a kind of police force , WE have given THEM arms .
to bad , that the palestenian leadership didn't leave the violent way , we have ... the didnt stop the hamas even before this intifada started , in the times of rabin , they showed the terorsits that ligitimit to blow up israelies , it is even wanted . now they are even using those arms we have given them against us .
so don't say that WE have to change ( i am not saying that we are perfect ).

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Like you said, your side ain't perfect. So start perfectionizing it.

What resources and tools do the Palestinians have to change?

Nothing, while the Israeli state has everything needed for a change.

The Palestinians live for the past 40 years in refugee camps, under strict control of the Israeli government. The Israeli government could start changing that.

[Blasphemy]

blasphemy you fucking refusnik , respect the soldiers that are trying tp protect you , every time you get of a buss , a pub , a cafe alive , it is because our soldiers ... and your calling them to refuse . yes i know that the ocupation brings many dificalties to the palestenians , but they should understand that it is because the are the haiven for terorists .


i respect the soldiers in the same way i respect every human being. i don't have more respect for them because they are soldiers. these soldiers are pawns, used by the israeli government to commit crimes in order to eternalize the israeli occupation in the territories.

i will not thank the people who think they are protecting me in the territories. i will not have crimes committed in my name. i will not have palestinian children die for "my security". i will not have innocent civilians shot dead just so i could hang out in downtown jerusalem on a friday night. i will not have ambulances stopped and shot at so i could sit in cafes in tel aviv. i will not have missiles fired in crowded neighborhoods so i could go and see movies in the cinematheque.

you can't blame only the palestinians. this is not a bad guys-good guys situation. both are equally guilty, both acts sinfully, both commit crimes. both have to change. israel has to stop the apartheid policy it is implementing in the territories. the palestinians have to stop supporting terrorists. when one will change, the other will as well. as an israeli, it is my responsibility to try and change israel. not just because it is the best thing for israel, but because it is the most just, the most moral thing to do. if refusing is the only way to do it, i shall do it proudly.

[deimos]

I agree 100% with Blasphemy. Sinistra, are you arabic?
@cccp: with "state" I don't necessarily mean an own state. I just mean a "homeland".Every people want to have a homeland. Now, in these times, also every people should be able to decide themselves. Not like palestine. the decisions of the palestinian ppl are made by the israelis.

[Zombie]

I think that your question sinistra
If you knew that there was this man , who is going to kill 20 people . would you risk his neighbours inorder to stop him , or would you just let him explode in a cafe 100 meters from you , and your beoved ones .
Blasphemy answered it pretty good. i will not go over this again. just to tell you, you r using that same argument repeatedly..mm not good.

Israel isn't based on racism , hatred ... fact : i am not Jewish , and i am equal like every other sitecen
i explicitely said if u aren't jewish or israeli (i.e born there).

Isarel isn't the one that should change here , it is the palestenians who have to change , when they will stop driving there youngs to become "matyrs" , when they stop talking about Jihad , when they would stop marching around with there guns promising more teror atacks ... then , only then there would be place for talking ... as long as this doesnt happen i have to be sure that more friends of mine will die
Do you think the solution is to destroy more palestinian housings, terrorising the civilians, demolishing most of their infrastructures, and torture them day and night? will that stop the desperate suicide bombers to hit you? as crazypete told me, you can't fight fire with fire! it will never get to positive results sinistra!

Ok, just so we get things straight here, what would, in your opinion, be the best way to deal with this?

Another question , who were you calling Nazi before?
how dare you compare them you the Nazies . do u mean i compared the settlers to nazis??? wtf??? can u rephrase that please so i can understand.

One last question, where do you come from originally? if u aren't jewish, what religion are you from? im just asking :)