We need to organize ourselves.

[Ol' Dirty]

I think that it's time for change, time to get really serious. The left needs a new leader, someone a majority of people could get behind, someone to unify the left; because without unity, we falter, in my opinion.

The first question: What are our ideals as a whole?

Secondly: Who is the best person to direct us to a better life, one with less suffering for all?

Thirdly: How will we achieve our goals?

[which doctor]

I certainly don't want a Chairman Bob type character telling me what to do. I think that only the people can successfully lead the people. The people will start the revolution soon enough, just wait.

[Ol' Dirty]

Good point. Sorry. I'm just a little upset that we're going nowhere after so much time.

[which doctor]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2006, 08:27 PM
Good point. Sorry. I'm just a little upset that we're going nowhere after so much time.
Don't worry, I think we all are a little upset about the current state of things.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Originally posted by Fist of Blood+Feb 14 2006, 01:31 AM--> (Fist of Blood @ Feb 14 2006, 01:31 AM)
[email protected] 13 2006, 08:27 PM
Good point. Sorry. I'm just a little upset that we're going nowhere after so much time.
Don't worry, I think we all are a little upset about the current state of things. [/b]
Seconded <_<

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

We do need to organize ourselves, but I don&#39;t thinks we need to get behind any singular leader. Get involved with an organization and use your frustration as a motivating force for work. That&#39;s really the best thing you can do right now.

[Ol' Dirty]

Originally posted by Compañ[email protected] 14 2006, 01:58 AM
We do need to organize ourselves, but I don&#39;t thinks we need to get behind any singular leader. Get involved with an organization and use your frustration as a motivating force for work. That&#39;s really the best thing you can do right now.
Alright. Thank you for being so understanding.

[Seong]

And spread the word. Start rallying more people to the cause if you can.
Thirded. I want a revolution now&#33;

[Iroquois Xavier]

One man/woman cannot control a revolution. People power is what is needed. :hammer:

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2006, 12:44 AM
I think that it&#39;s time for change, time to get really serious.
From what?


The left needs a new leader, someone a majority of people could get behind, someone to unify the left; because without unity, we falter, in my opinion.

How will getting a leader help us achieve leaderlessness?


The first question: What are our ideals as a whole?

I think most people on the Board are Marxists to some degree. But im an Anarchist-Communist


Secondly: Who is the best person to direct us to a better life, one with less suffering for all?

KIM JONG Il&#33; - in other words, no one but yourself can "lead" you to a better life. But then again, we can&#39;t achieve anything like that on our own.



Thirdly: How will we achieve our goals?

Loads of ways, for now I think the best option in the 1st world is Direct action. Do it, keep doing it.

[Nathe]

i think that the only leader that would be remoteley close to usefull is a front man to represent the ideals of the masses. but as additives said, this would only slow down getting to leaderlessness later in the revolution.

instead of finding a front man and risk the movement turning into a pseudo-communist cult-of-personality, we need to focus more on educating people, having civil debates with capitalists and persueding people to the cause. only then will we be working towards the revolution, instead of playing around finding a front man

[ReD_ReBeL]

What we need is a group of Cadres to lead the way. But not a front man or a personality cult like Chairman Bob. We need a group of well educated cadres that will reach out to the masses and educated them in far-left beliefs ie. socialism. Because in this current society Socialism and communism are seen as negatives by the majority. A group of cadres that will later turn into a group of the masses, once the majority is educated enough to help the working man and the peasants out of there situation of dire exploitation and to work cooperatively.

[violencia.Proletariat]

We need a group of well educated cadres

What is this supposed to mean, people who have master degrees? Well educated is subjective.


that will reach out to the masses and educated them in far-left beliefs ie. socialism.

We dont need a selected group to do this when we already have thousands doing it each day. When economic necessity provides the need for revolution, education on the issue will be as easy to find as a McDonalds.


A group of cadres that will later turn into a group of the masses

What is the point of this when you can have a large decentralized mass doing this in the first place.

[ReD_ReBeL]

What is this supposed to mean, people who have master degrees? Well educated is subjective.

Well educated in far-left beliefs, having a deep and depth understanding of socialism etc , who can spread the word to workers, farmers, poor, everyone looking for help ie.oppressed peoples.



We dont need a selected group to do this when we already have thousands doing it each day.

Yes i know what you mean, but where is the support other than latin america? people are still electing right wing candidates and favouring capitalists.
Yes you may see a 2,000 people march through the streets, but 2,000 out of a whole country is still a very tiny minority.

Here....Che Guevara explians it better than me.
TheCadres:Backbone of the revolution (http://marxists.org/archive/guevara/1962/09/misc/x01.htm)

[Guest]

Comrades,i wish you all the best
the future looks bleak to me.strikes and protests are illegal in my country,so is freedom of expression against the ruling class.you may ask,wtf is this guy talking about.well,this is a perspective of a person who have no right in the eyes of the local law.whose country ranks worst than bosnia and somalia in terms of freedom of speech.consider yourselves lucky that at least you can organise,etc.i&#39;ll have to start from scratch.and things seem impossible for now

resist and revolt&#33;
peace,
.....

[ReD_ReBeL]

wow seems very restricted , where r you from?

[violencia.Proletariat]

Well educated in far-left beliefs, having a deep and depth understanding of socialism etc , who can spread the word to workers, farmers, poor, everyone looking for help ie.oppressed peoples.

Who is "well educated" in leftist beliefs would be a big arguement amongst the left.


people are still electing right wing candidates and favouring capitalists.

The majority of proletarians dont do this. Half the voting population in America doesnt vote.

Someone preaching socialism isnt going to bring revolution, the eventual downfall of capitalism will most likely come about because of economic reasons.


Yes you may see a 2,000 people march through the streets, but 2,000 out of a whole country is still a very tiny minority.

So electing 5 or 10 people to spread the message makes a bigger majority? :blink:


Here....Che Guevara explians it better than me.

Che Guevara&#39;s theories arent very applicable to Advanced Capitalist countries such as the one I live in. He thought communism could be created from third world countries, which has been shown not to be possible

[YSR]

I would caution comrades that while we should not actively seek out a "leader", there is nothing wrong with someone to be seen to be a prominent radical, so long as he/she doesn&#39;t exist as a technical leader or claim to speak for the group. For sure, leaders of left-wing movements have a history of selling out their supporters (I&#39;m not going to cite specific examples, as I think there are enough for us all to know some).

But from what I see of at least American society, we tend to appreciate figureheads. I like Noam Chomsky, for instance, or would have liked Eugene Debs/Bill Haywood/Mother Jones had I been alive in their time. That doesn&#39;t mean I neccessarily support everything they said, but it&#39;s nice to have someone who the mainstream media can turn to intelligently represent us. Not that they normally do, but they could.

I guess it&#39;s just my cynical nature, but I&#39;ve heard some dumb radicals in my life. And if the revolution is to gain momentum, it&#39;s my belief that there will likely be a lot more. Hangers-on, partisans, political fadsters, etc. I&#39;d rather have Howard Zinn explaining us on CBS when we take control of a major city then John Q. Stalinist, who would missrepresent us.

Does this make sense? I think it does.

[Comrade Ben]

Gentlemen, the key to changing the world, currently, lies in changing the United States. With the fall of the United States, the civilized world shall fall to decay, allowing us to take up the clay of degredation, and mold it to what we see fit. Just like the fall of Rome to the Vandals in the days of old, the world shall rise new, with a new system of governing. So, we need to puppet the White House, to puppet the revolution. We need a nice, midwestern/country boy, one who can connect with the people, but, still seems to be better than Bush. When this man is found, the Revolution can begin.

[AK47]

I do believe that the only productive leader, or leaders will be those willing to follow before they "lead." A leader needs to see the direction that the people are going and facilitate that movement. This means no "Bobs" like the man said. That does not mean we cannot use his news letter to our advantage. That leader needs to be somewhat selfless, and without an agenda.

We do need to organize. Could be we will need to elect regional leaders and build up to any national, or international leadership. Groups of 30-50 people at a time could form an action committee. Give it a year to grow then have a first annual committee conference. We do not need to wait for a leader. We need to lead our selves.

[RNK]

I think the larger picture is being missed here. That larger picture being that after almost 100 years since Communism exploded into the world, it has done nothing but suffer defeat after defeat at the hands of Capitalism and Imperialism and corruption.

Many of you seem to think that "slow and steady wins the race"; that it is acceptable to simply "await" the revolution, as if it were some future planned event involving parades and fireworks, and the day it comes you would run out your front doors and join the thousands of people roaming down the street in a never-ending celebration.

That isn&#39;t going to happen. Revolutions do not spontaneously occur. And the saddest thing is, every case I&#39;ve seen on these boards of someone attempting a "Call to arms" or an urging to start the Revolution has been shot down each and every time. It would seem to an outsider almost as if a lot of people here are working harder to find reasons why they shouldn&#39;t start a revolution, than working towards making one happen.

All in all, the basic message I&#39;ve gotten from this board is that "we all believe in something; but we&#39;ll be damned if we&#39;re going to do anything productive about it."

But all in all you are all too busy with your lives to do anything. I&#39;m sure most of you work, or go to school; you get up in the morning, make breakfast, brush your teeth, off you go for 8 hours.. you come home, hop on the computer, play video games, and talk about how one day you&#39;re going to be in something called a "Revolution". Sure, I do it too sometimes. But the apathetic point of view has to stop.


Che Guevara&#39;s theories arent very applicable to Advanced Capitalist countries such as the one I live in. He thought communism could be created from third world countries, which has been shown not to be possible

Last time I checked, 3rd world countries are now the sole remaining bastion of Communism in the world.

[loveme4whoiam]

I&#39;d hardly say that Ernest. I&#39;m probably one of those people who you say have shouted down call-to-armists, if by a call to arms you mean grabbing your rifle and heading to the nearest CEO&#39;s house. Would I support a revolution now, this very moment? Of course yes. Do I think it&#39;s possible? No. Why? Because such a revolution needs majority support, which we clearly don&#39;t have. I&#39;ve never shouted down anyone who is trying to further the education of the masses because that is furthering the revolution. And as for "we&#39;ll be damed if we do anything about it", what about all those who are actively pursuing the goal of revolution? If by "productive" you mean furthering the cause by taking a baseball bat to the nearest shop window then spray-painting "Communism Forever" next to it, I&#39;m pretty sure most people aren&#39;t doing that (although you never know).

Apathetic? Hardly. Unproductive? Hardly. Violently sticking it to the man to "further" the Revolution? I hope not.

[Zeitgeizt]

Ernest is the only one who made any sense on this thread. Sober up...we&#39;re not doing well. Most of this Marxism is so dusty that I hardly visit this board...

[YSR]

Complain, complain, complain. I&#39;m sorry comrades Zeitgeizt and Ernest, but I can&#39;t abide your attitude. There are many degrees of revolutionary thinking. Yours isn&#39;t the only right one. There are many ways to achieve change. Yours isn&#39;t the only one.

I haven&#39;t been on this board for very long but I find that the most obnoxious thing here is that everyone believes that they know everything about revolution. Unless your name is (insert name of a radical who continues to be successful, whose revolution succeeded and continues to thrive) don&#39;t proclaim the only right way to victory. Since no one here, indeed alive, fits this bill, maybe we should try to value each other&#39;s opinions and each other&#39;s contributions rather than quibbling.

Sorry, had to get that off my chest. It&#39;s irritating.

[drain.you]

I don&#39;t think we need a leader as such but we definately need to unite behind the same banner. I mean we have the marxists, the anarchists, the stalinists, the lennists, the trotskyists and what-not and we have very similar ideas and aiming for the same thing in essence; a classless society.
What I say is, we need an organisation for all of us lefties to get together under. Different branches of this organisation can follow whatever perspective they want but if we were united we could do so much more.
I&#39;m not calling for a revolution here, I&#39;m calling us to gather together and to educate the masses to our ways of thinking. Yeah, we need revolution but a bit of reform will do no harm, if all lefties were together then we could put pressure on governments and corporations to lean more left in their policies. We could organise rallies, speechs and protests. We could pick things to boycott. We could change the world, one way or another if we just united. Not because we need to all think the same, we never will but we have common agendas and oppose many of the same things and if we united on what we all agree on instead of focusing on what we dont agree on then we could be of some use to the world. I don&#39;t want to live my life doing bog all and dying without a dent in the capitalist machine and neither do you&#33;

[Wanted Man]

Flux, most communists are already organised. It&#39;s up to you to actually join the party, because it will definitely not form around you.

[Guest]

we need selflessness,that&#39;s what we need.....no leaders,no front men....selflessness is the ideal...that&#39;s what we should strive towards....not AK 47s and Molotov Cocktails....murder never helps anything....we need to be human....leave this carnal state....we may be advanced...civilized...whatever they say we have become...but spiritually and morally...we&#39;ve deteriorated....life gets harder and harder.....trust is just another word in the dictionary...has no weight anymore........

[drain.you]

dont....think..i agree...with you....guest....and whats...with the dots...all the time?

Of course we will need violence for a revolution, the capitalists aren&#39;t just going to step down from power one day and give it to the people.

[piet11111]

ok first of all dont bother with politicly active party&#39;s they dont achieve anything ever.
you cant beat the capitalists in a capitalists political arena.
politics is all about making concessions and we dont want to make consessions to the capitalists.

if marx is right the working class at one point will be pushed into an unbearable position where they will all rebel against the poeple in power.
and when that starts to happen then and only then do we have to organise and execute our plans.
our fellow proles are then willing enough to listen to our ideas and daring enough to act on them.
and while we are going from objective A to B we can use the travelling time to educate our ideas to our friends that are coming with us.
and as such we dont need a leader figure because that is the major issue poeple have with communism and rightfully so.

then after the revolution is done we need to start preparing for the incoming foreign army&#39;s.
it may be weeks but the first may be here in days if the revolution survives the foreign intervention then we can safely say the revolution has been a succes.

[loveme4whoiam]

the major issue poeple have with communism and rightfully so.
What major issue? Granted, there is a negative view perpetuated by capitalists, but how on Earth are they right? At best, they can be applied to a socialist government; generally, they are a load of shite.

Apart from that, I agree with you. There will come a time (sooner rather than later if things continue as they are) that the people will be angry (at least, more angry) at the crap conditions they live in. It is the job of revolutionaries to make it clear to the people that they can actually change the conditions.

Another preachy post brought to you by loveme4whoiam :D

[piet11111]

the biggest objection that poeple have is that all the socialist experiments resulted in some form of dictatorship.
and as such they wont consider supporting communism in the fear of establishing a dictatorship.
and with that i agree that any "communist" or "socialist" group that promotes a leader of vanguard needs to be avoided like the plague.

i rather prever capitalism over a dictatorship because capitalism allows much more movement to resists and rebel.
under a dictatorship our brains would have painted a wall already :lol: