bolshevik

[Global_Justice]

or something like that :o

what is it? and why does everyone hate it, i thought the russian revolution was a bolshevik revolution? or have i been misled <_< :D

[Comrade Corinna]

Not everyone hates the Bolsheviks. There are some Leninists here. (I used to be Leninist but not anymore)

The Bolsheviks were not good or bad, it&#39;s not as black and white as Americans tell you. The reason why the Bolshevik Revolution gets the bad rap is because, obviously, the resulting oppressive dictatorship and the killings made.
However, the Bolsheviks can be viewed as heroes, because they were the first to realize Marx&#39;s prediction of the working class rising up against their oppressors. They made the mistake, though, of altering Marx&#39;s plan of having the intermediate period of socialism lead to communism, the collective ownership of all property. The Soviets just created a new class of oppressors (already defeating the purpose of a classless society) who imposed a government monopoly instead of true collectivism.

[BattleOfTheCowshed]

The Russian revolution was indeed lead by the Bolshevik party. Not everyone hates the Bolsheviks, me for example. They organized councils, or Soviets, of workers, students, soldiers, etc. and brought about one of the few successful socialist revolutions led by the actual mass of the working class (and not some minority acting on behalf of the working class). Keep in mind that Stalin purged nearly all of the original leaders of the Bolsheviks, and banned theoretical adherence to Bolshevik thought of revolution/socialism. Thus the resulting devolution of the USSR into a de-facto capitalist society, and the mass killings and brutality on the part of the USSR have nothing to do with the Bolshevik&#39;s ideas about capitalism and socialism.

[Led Zeppelin]

They made the mistake, though, of altering Marx&#39;s plan of having the intermediate period of socialism lead to communism, the collective ownership of all property. The Soviets just created a new class of oppressors (already defeating the purpose of a classless society) who imposed a government monopoly instead of true collectivism.

They didn&#39;t "alter Marx&#39;s plans of having the intermediate period of Socialism lead to Communism".

Government monopoly is collectivism if the government is controlled by the proletariat, this was the case of course, the proletariat indirectly controlled the goverment/state by means of its most advanced and class-conscious section, that is, the proletarian vanguard.

The problem was that this vanguard eventually degenerates if it keeps its priviliged position in society for a lengthy amount of time, the USSR never reached Socialism, it was in the process of building Socialism, it is utopian to say that the proletarian vanguard should have given the proletarian class (whom the majority of were certainly not class-conscious) "complete power", not only because they were not class-conscious, but also because they were not the largest class in Russian society at the time, i.e., the material conditions for Socialism did not exist.

What then did the vanguard do? Create the material conditions for Socialism consciously while at the same time guiding their class to class-consciousness.

They failed for the above mentioned reason, the vanguard degenerated and decided to keep its priviliged position, which then lead to the eventual destruction of the USSR.

It is not a coincidence that the USSR was growing while it was still revolutionary and only started to decline after it became openly reactionary.

[Lamanov]

Originally posted by BattleOfTheCowshed+--> (BattleOfTheCowshed)They organized councils, or Soviets, of workers, students, soldiers, etc. and ...[/b]

That&#39;s not true&#33; Not even bolshevik apologists would say that shit out loud. Bolsheviks did not organize the Soviets&#33; Workers did it by themselves, spontaneously&#33;

Do some reading on 1905 and February 1917. Consult the fact where were the "leaders" then and what exactly did they do.

I&#39;ll give you an example: when Soviets appeared in 1905, Lenin thought they were "some temporary" groupings which will have no significant role in the revolutionary process.


Originally posted by [email protected]
... brought about one of the few successful socialist revolutions led by the actual mass of the working class (and not some minority acting on behalf of the working class)

:rolleyes: They led the coup d&#39; etat which brough their asses to power in November days. This was not a mass acton. It appears as one because they had an army on their side, and the 2nd All Russian Congress of the Soviets was in the meeting then in Smolny. They had to wait for it to begin in order for their action to have a legitimate appearence.

* * * *

Well, Corrina, there&#39;s a better way to put it: Bolsheviks imposed a centralized separate unit for governing, thus creating a power separate of the Soviets.

We can say that it was historically "nececary", for the objective conditions were not ripe. It was also a historical necessity for the Russian revolution to take that detour. Bolsheviks fought to stay in power for they believed that they are the only force capable of leading the country in any progressive direction. They fought to keep all what they made with October-November; their own lives with it, of course.

Today, this approach would have no significance but reactonary one.

* * * *


Marxism&#045;Leninism
... it is utopian to say that the proletarian vanguard should have given the proletarian class (whom the majority of were certainly not class-conscious) "complete power" ...

It&#39;s utopian to say that "the vanguard" will give away its power just like that at any good or bad condition for revolutionary transition. The "power" will be taken by the proletariat alone or it will not be taken at all&#33;

As I&#39;ve explained before, Bolsheviks were not a "proletarian vanguard"; they played a role of the revolutionary vanguard, above the proletarian class.

[Global_Justice]

whats a vanguard :o

[Led Zeppelin]

whats a vanguard

Vanguard & Mass (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/v/a.htm#vanguard)


As I&#39;ve explained before

You explained your position, I&#39;m sorry to say it wasn&#39;t backed up by facts, so your explanation is worthless to me; and any other self-respecting human being.

[Global_Justice]

Originally posted by Marxism&#045;[email protected] 13 2006, 06:53 PM

whats a vanguard

Vanguard & Mass (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/v/a.htm#vanguard)


cheers :lol:

[Lamanov]

Originally posted by Marxism&#045;[email protected] 13 2006, 06:53 PM
You explained your position, I&#39;m sorry to say it wasn&#39;t backed up by facts, so your explanation is worthless to me; and any other self-respecting human being.

I don&#39;t think you participated in that discussion. Anyway.

My conclusions such as this one are built on facts. If I am challenged to explain them in detail I would do so. But somehow I fail to see that it is needed, since the alternative to them are only endless quotations of semi-god-like Lenin posted by obsessed chilidren with no sense for criticism.

If someone wants to learn the facts they can do so by reading a history book.

[ComradeOm]

Originally posted by DJ&#045;[email protected] 14 2006, 04:08 PM
If someone wants to learn the facts they can do so by reading a history book.
Where they will learn that the Bolsheviks were the most revolutionary party in Russia 1917

[Lamanov]

Originally posted by ComradeOm+Feb 14 2006, 04:52 PM--> (ComradeOm @ Feb 14 2006, 04:52 PM)
DJ&#045;[email protected] 14 2006, 04:08 PM
If someone wants to learn the facts they can do so by reading a history book.
Where they will learn that the Bolsheviks were the most revolutionary party in Russia 1917 [/b]
Indeed. But of course, that&#39;s not all they&#39;ll learn. :lol:

[Led Zeppelin]

I don&#39;t think you participated in that discussion. Anyway.

Actually I did, and, if I recall correctly you were the one who wasn&#39;t very active in it.

I mostly refuted RS and that kid whose name I forgot.

The thread is somewhere in the theory forum, too lazy to find and link to it.