Vivisection

[Ultra-Violence]

Id like to know what many of u think about vivisection and hear your thoughts!

I personaly am disgusted by vivisection of animals and think its toaly unesscecary and its a total disregard for life and should be stoped thats just my opinion loved to hear yours

LIBERATE!
:hammer:

[Vinny Rafarino]

I believe it is clearly too soon to "ban" or "restrict the use of vivisection in medical research.

From the informationI have gathered, it is quite clear that vivisection does indeed play (for the time being) a vital role in the diagnosis of disease and in the development for disease treatment.

Even the majority of "evidence" provided by Pietro Croce has been refuted by independent research.

[LSD]

Animal research is absolutely essential for the progress of medical science. At this point in time, there is simply no realistic alternative.

Organizations such as PETA or the ALF that protest or destroy research facilities are showing a complete disregard for rationality and basic humanistic decency. In their quest for "moral purity", they miss the pragmatic reality of the objective world.

No one wants to see animals in pain, but we simply cannot allow medical decisions to be made based on emotional reactions.

People like Coronado and Nukirk are dangerous and reactionary and we cannot forget that.

They are, by their nature, our ideological enemies and a conflict between the forces of primitavist idealism and rational progression is inevitable.


LIBERATE!

And whom is it that you seek to "liberate" in this context?

Animals cannot be "liberated" within human society, nor is their use in medical science "exploitation" or "oppression".

The only "liberation" relevent to this situation is the liberation from disease that vivisective research offers humanity. Refusing this offer would be utter madness, not to mention deadly for millions.

There are simply too many human lives at stake in this equation to make the idealistic "moral stand" that TAL organizations want us to.

[omegaflare]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2006, 02:35 AM
Animal research is absolutely essential for the progress of medical science. At this point in time, there is simply no realistic alternative.

Organizations such as PETA or the ALF that protest or destroy research facilities are showing a complete disregard for rationality and basic humanistic decency. In their quest for "moral purity", they miss the pragmatic reality of the objective world.

No one wants to see animals in pain, but we simply cannot allow medical decisions to be made based on emotional reactions.

People like Coronado and Nukirk are dangerous and reactionary and we cannot forget that.

They are, by their nature, our ideological enemies and a conflict between the forces of primitavist idealism and rational progression is inevitable.


LIBERATE!

And whom is it that you seek to "liberate" in this context?

Animals cannot be "liberated" within human society, nor is their use in medical science "exploitation" or "oppression".

The only "liberation" relevent to this situation is the liberation from disease that vivisective research offers humanity. Refusing this offer would be utter madness, not to mention deadly for millions.

There are simply too many human lives at stake in this equation to make the idealistic "moral stand" that TAL organizations want us to.
Good job.

As far as I see, PETA members, by choosing to side with reactionaries, have more or less betrayed, not only the working class, but the human race. They have chosen between animals and humans, believing the latter to "obviously" be equal or in some cases, inferior, to animals. Nevermind the evolutionary progress of humanity, no, that is not enough, ANIMALS OF THE WORLD, UNITE!! (Wait.....They can't)

[Ultra-Violence]

Commrades i agree with u all that People come Before animals but testing on animals isnt neccary any more theres tons of alteranitves today i dont know the exact name today but i read some where that u can test on these artificail skin graphs or something like that sorry for not knowing the correct name. but i personaly want to end ALL forms of expliotation and that means people and animals and i think we can all recognze that these animals are bieng expliotated there sole sole prurpose is to be mutilated for information we already have for example sesnory deprivation. sowing a mokeys eyes for sensory deprivation test is very unescesary because that information is already availbele. secondly the animals anatomy is differnt than ares for example chocolate can be lethal to dogs and sheeps bodys are very resistant to lots of drugs. so is it nesceary right now i belive NO! :rolleyes: and not all great medical advancements were tested on animals loook at penicilin it was discoverd on moldy bread. :hammer:

[mentalbunny]

Aha, vivisection and animal testing. Without it Type I diabetics wouldn't have a snowball's chance, there'd be no vaccines for various horrible diseases and there would be no heart, liver or kidney transplants. Ok, it may be conceivable that we could have eventually worked these things out without animal testing, but that's unlikely.

Testing cosmetics on animals is wrong, in my opinion, as there are many established alternatives, and we should also be putting more funding towards research of more alternatives for medicine as well, but as yet animal testing is still a necessary evil.
Oxford university are having a lot of problems with SPEAK and ALF at the moment, because of their new lab they're building, which won't actually increase animal testing levels because it's replacing old labs, and the animal welfare will actually be better in the new lab.

Animal rights protesters can get very scary. The ALF have publicly said that they consider anyone remotely connected to Oxford university as legitimate targets. They've already firebombed a college boathouse. I think it's really out of line that they're targetting students who have nothing to do with the lab. They're also shooting themselves in the foot, as they've completely alienated the students, who may have supported ALF.

[LSD]

Commrades i agree with u all that People come Before animals but testing on animals isnt neccary any more theres tons of alteranitves today

Not according to any reputable scientist in the field today.

Despite the lies that PETA or the ALF will tell you, at present, there is simply no realistic alternative to animal testing.

In a recent survey of Nobel Prize winning medical researchers, a whopping 97% stated that they believe animal research to be essential for scientific progress.

Personally, I trust actual doctors far more than moralistic jackoffs with a messianic agenda to "free the animals".

Life isn't a Disney fantasy, and all creatures are not going to "live in harmony". The "vegan power" crowd needs to grow the fuck up and get over it.


i personaly want to end ALL forms of expliotation and that means people and animals

No it doesn't.

Human society means a society of humans, nothing more.

The flaws of the "total animal liberation" paradigm are too numerous and vast to enumerate them all here, but look through some old threads on the subject and you'll see some examples.

Suffice it to say that the "liberation" of animals is a practical impossibility and our sole externalistic obligation is within the context of humanistic prioritization.

We should not be unnescessarily cruel, but the needs and wants of humanity must always come first.

And, for the moment, medical research is certainly an essential need!


secondly the animals anatomy is differnt than ares for example chocolate can be lethal to dogs and sheeps bodys are very resistant to lots of drugs.


This has got to be one of the stupidest anti-vivisection arguments around, but it never seems to die.

Do you honestly think that researchers are that stupid? That if you know about these physiological differences, they don't?

The only reason that you can point to these speicifc biological facts is because some animal researcher collected the data. Believe me, they're smart enough to know how to interpret it as well.

Different animals are used for different purposes, specifically because of the biological differences like the ones you mentioned.

And really, what's the alternative? Human testing!? :o


Animal rights protesters can get very scary.

Indeed, they're not unlike the anti-abortion nuts who kill doctors in the name of "saving lives".

For all its claims of moral superiority, the ALF and associate organizations have firebombed research facilities, rigged IEDs to scientists' cars, sent rat poison dipped razor blades to the homes of dozens of researchers, and actively called for the death of numerous doctors doing life-saving research.

Indeed, even the ALF's "hero" and personal friend of PETA leader Nukirk, Ray Coronado, now says that its "time to start targetting [people]".

"Scarry"? That doesn't even begin to describe it.


They're also shooting themselves in the foot, as they've completely alienated the students, who may have supported ALF.

Exactly.

Nothing marginalizes a movement quicker than rank insanity.

Organizations like PETA and the ALF have made it so that no one takes the "animal rights" movement seriously any more. And if groups like the ELF have their way, the same might soon be true for environmentalism in general.

Rationality and logic will lead to changed minds, luncay and idealism will changed channels.

[Ultra-Violence]

QUOTE
Commrades i agree with u all that People come Before animals but testing on animals isnt neccary any more theres tons of alteranitves today



Not according to any reputable scientist in the field today.

Despite the lies that PETA or the ALF will tell you, at present, there is simply no realistic alternative to animal testing.

In a recent survey of Nobel Prize winning medical researchers, a whopping 97% stated that they believe animal research to be essential for scientific progress.

Personally, I trust actual doctors far more than moralistic jackoffs with a messianic agenda to "free the animals".

Life isn't a Disney fantasy, and all creatures are not going to "live in harmony". The "vegan power" crowd needs to grow the fuck up and get over it.




I aint vegan yo, know people who are they anoy me as well


QUOTE
i personaly want to end ALL forms of expliotation and that means people and animals



No it doesn't.

Human society means a society of humans, nothing more.

The flaws of the "total animal liberation" paradigm are too numerous and vast to enumerate them all here, but look through some old threads on the subject and you'll see some examples.

Suffice it to say that the "liberation" of animals is a practical impossibility and our sole externalistic obligation is within the context of humanistic prioritization.

We should not be unnescessarily cruel, but the needs and wants of humanity must always come first.

And, for the moment, medical research is certainly an essential need!

ill give u a qiuck example look at the old native amrecian ways of life they hunted and killed the buffalo and used every part of it and wasted nothing and killied no more then thaye needed to. Today u got this disgusting meat industry were cows are paked tightly like sardines and live in there shit. then are injected with these horibble hormomes to produce "more" milk so there utters get really swollen and drag on the gorund and with all thier shit then they pump them and pump them so hard that there utters produce puss wich gos with the milk and hten givin more hormones and the cycle begins agian. and they do this when there is already a surplus amount of milk int the world. what dos that mirror?hmm think about it



QUOTE
secondly the animals anatomy is differnt than ares for example chocolate can be lethal to dogs and sheeps bodys are very resistant to lots of drugs.




This has got to be one of the stupidest anti-vivisection arguments around, but it never seems to die.

Do you honestly think that researchers are that stupid? That if you know about these physiological differences, they don't?

The only reason that you can point to these speicifc biological facts is because some animal researcher collected the data. Believe me, they're smart enough to know how to interpret it as well.

Different animals are used for different purposes, specifically because of the biological differences like the ones you mentioned.

And really, what's the alternative? Human testing!?




What so u want people to live longer? Especialy more old People! :huh: (joke i think)



QUOTE
Animal rights protesters can get very scary.



Indeed, they're not unlike the anti-abortion nuts who kill doctors in the name of "saving lives".

For all its claims of moral superiority, the ALF and associate organizations have firebombed research facilities, rigged IEDs to scientists' cars, sent rat poison dipped razor blades to the homes of dozens of researchers, and actively called for the death of numerous doctors doing life-saving research.

Indeed, even the ALF's "hero" and personal friend of PETA leader Nukirk, Ray Coronado, now says that its "time to start targetting [people]".

"Scarry"? That doesn't even begin to describe it.


QUOTE
They're also shooting themselves in the foot, as they've completely alienated the students, who may have supported ALF.



Exactly.

Nothing marginalizes a movement quicker than rank insanity.

Organizations like PETA and the ALF have made it so that no one takes the "animal rights" movement seriously any more. And if groups like the ELF have their way, the same might soon be true for environmentalism in general.

Rationality and logic will lead to changed minds, luncay and idealism will changed channels.

all i got to say about alf and peta is that i thouhgt in an alf action .......
1.dont hurt people
2.dont hurt animals

:hammer:

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by Ultra Violence
Today u got this disgusting meat industry were cows are paked tightly like sardines and live in there shit.

It's okay UV, the cows themselves are not self aware animals and lack the ability to rationalise their environment.

They are incapable of caring about it.

[LSD]

What so u want people to live longer?


Yes!


all i got to say about alf and peta is that i thouhgt in an alf action .......
1.dont hurt people

Then you thought wrong.

Do some research on Ray Coronado and or "The Justice Department". The ALF and its associated organizations are more than willing to harm people if it's "for the cause", and that makes them very very dangerous ...not to mention insane.

[Tormented by Treachery]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 11:25 PM
In a recent survey of Nobel Prize winning medical researchers, a whopping 97% stated that they believe animal research to be essential for scientific progress.

Personally, I trust actual doctors far more than moralistic jackoffs with a messianic agenda to "free the animals".
I agree with you, this seems like an interesting read/survey though, do you have a source? I'd like to read further :)

[LSD]

this seems like an interesting read/survey though, do you have a source?

http://www.simr.org.uk/pages/nobel/nobel_survey.html

[mentalbunny]

all i got to say about alf and peta is that i thouhgt in an alf action .......
1.dont hurt people
2.dont hurt animals


Some articles about ALF and other groups:


http://www.guardian.co.uk/animalrights/sto...1273721,00.html (http://www.guardian.co.uk/animalrights/story/0,11917,1273721,00.html) (if you can't be bothered to read the whole article it's worth scrolling down to the bottom to read the little paragraphs about a few groups). This reminds me a little of the IRA. The americans love funding terrorists, don't they?!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3561-2014798,00.html


u got this disgusting meat industry were cows are paked tightly like sardines and live in there shit. then are injected with these horibble hormomes to produce "more" milk so there utters get really swollen and drag on the gorund and with all thier shit then they pump them and pump them so hard that there utters produce puss wich gos with the milk and hten givin more hormones and the cycle begins agian. and they do this when there is already a surplus amount of milk int the world. what dos that mirror?hmm think about it

This is a seperate issue. Animal welfare in Europe and America is far from brilliant. I think it's slightly better in the EU but not by much in many circumstances (think of the battery hens!). However I don't believe that "liberating" these animals will really be of any use in the long term. Do you think these animals will be better off in the wild? And I can't believe that the people who release them will be able to look after them properly. Surely it's much better to lobby government, or lend support to organisations such as the Soil association, and work towards the positive instead of just being destructive.

The surplus of milk, meat, butter, etc is pretty sickening, but it's impossible to have an ideal solution. When the EU finally gets round to fixing CAP (the common agricultural policy, the system of subsidies and quotas for farmers) there might be some improvement, but the problem is finding a system where farmers get a decent wage, the environment and animals are cared for and where the food is cheap for consumers. Many people argue that food is too cheap, but I think that's a bit unfair. Unfortunately good, nutritional food is clearly not cheap enough, as we now live in a society where the poor are more likely to be obese and the rich thin, fit and healthy.

[omegaflare]

Originally posted by Ultra-[email protected] 13 2006, 04:51 AM

QUOTE
Commrades i agree with u all that People come Before animals but testing on animals isnt neccary any more theres tons of alteranitves today



Not according to any reputable scientist in the field today.

Despite the lies that PETA or the ALF will tell you, at present, there is simply no realistic alternative to animal testing.

In a recent survey of Nobel Prize winning medical researchers, a whopping 97% stated that they believe animal research to be essential for scientific progress.

Personally, I trust actual doctors far more than moralistic jackoffs with a messianic agenda to "free the animals".

Life isn't a Disney fantasy, and all creatures are not going to "live in harmony". The "vegan power" crowd needs to grow the fuck up and get over it.




I aint vegan yo, know people who are they anoy me as well


QUOTE
i personaly want to end ALL forms of expliotation and that means people and animals



No it doesn't.

Human society means a society of humans, nothing more.

The flaws of the "total animal liberation" paradigm are too numerous and vast to enumerate them all here, but look through some old threads on the subject and you'll see some examples.

Suffice it to say that the "liberation" of animals is a practical impossibility and our sole externalistic obligation is within the context of humanistic prioritization.

We should not be unnescessarily cruel, but the needs and wants of humanity must always come first.

And, for the moment, medical research is certainly an essential need!

ill give u a qiuck example look at the old native amrecian ways of life they hunted and killed the buffalo and used every part of it and wasted nothing and killied no more then thaye needed to. Today u got this disgusting meat industry were cows are paked tightly like sardines and live in there shit. then are injected with these horibble hormomes to produce "more" milk so there utters get really swollen and drag on the gorund and with all thier shit then they pump them and pump them so hard that there utters produce puss wich gos with the milk and hten givin more hormones and the cycle begins agian. and they do this when there is already a surplus amount of milk int the world. what dos that mirror?hmm think about it



QUOTE
secondly the animals anatomy is differnt than ares for example chocolate can be lethal to dogs and sheeps bodys are very resistant to lots of drugs.




This has got to be one of the stupidest anti-vivisection arguments around, but it never seems to die.

Do you honestly think that researchers are that stupid? That if you know about these physiological differences, they don't?

The only reason that you can point to these speicifc biological facts is because some animal researcher collected the data. Believe me, they're smart enough to know how to interpret it as well.

Different animals are used for different purposes, specifically because of the biological differences like the ones you mentioned.

And really, what's the alternative? Human testing!?




What so u want people to live longer? Especialy more old People! :huh: (joke i think)



QUOTE
Animal rights protesters can get very scary.



Indeed, they're not unlike the anti-abortion nuts who kill doctors in the name of "saving lives".

For all its claims of moral superiority, the ALF and associate organizations have firebombed research facilities, rigged IEDs to scientists' cars, sent rat poison dipped razor blades to the homes of dozens of researchers, and actively called for the death of numerous doctors doing life-saving research.

Indeed, even the ALF's "hero" and personal friend of PETA leader Nukirk, Ray Coronado, now says that its "time to start targetting [people]".

"Scarry"? That doesn't even begin to describe it.


QUOTE
They're also shooting themselves in the foot, as they've completely alienated the students, who may have supported ALF.



Exactly.

Nothing marginalizes a movement quicker than rank insanity.

Organizations like PETA and the ALF have made it so that no one takes the "animal rights" movement seriously any more. And if groups like the ELF have their way, the same might soon be true for environmentalism in general.

Rationality and logic will lead to changed minds, luncay and idealism will changed channels.

all i got to say about alf and peta is that i thouhgt in an alf action .......
1.dont hurt people
2.dont hurt animals

:hammer:
As was mentioned, the ALF has a "sub-group", the Justice Department. What's the requirement to join? You can forget about the third tenet of ALF, that is, not to hurt humans.

[Ultra-Violence]

QUOTE
u got this disgusting meat industry were cows are paked tightly like sardines and live in there shit. then are injected with these horibble hormomes to produce "more" milk so there utters get really swollen and drag on the gorund and with all thier shit then they pump them and pump them so hard that there utters produce puss wich gos with the milk and hten givin more hormones and the cycle begins agian. and they do this when there is already a surplus amount of milk int the world. what dos that mirror?hmm think about it



This is a seperate issue

how is this a seprate issue im talking about animal expliotation and this is one of its forms.


QUOTE
What so u want people to live longer?




Yes!


Why eww more old people! :lol:


QUOTE
all i got to say about alf and peta is that i thouhgt in an alf action .......
1.dont hurt people



Then you thought wrong.

Do some research on Ray Coronado and or "The Justice Department". The ALF and its associated organizations are more than willing to harm people if it's "for the cause", and that makes them very very dangerous ...not to mention insane.

i didint think wrong was just informed worng i went to thier web site and thats what an alf action is "suppose" to be.


QUOTE (Ultra Violence)
Today u got this disgusting meat industry were cows are paked tightly like sardines and live in there shit.



It's okay UV, the cows themselves are not self aware animals and lack the ability to rationalise their environment.

They are incapable of caring about it.

How do you know this? explain further please.


:hammer:

[Fawkes]

QUOTE (Ultra Violence)
Today u got this disgusting meat industry were cows are paked tightly like sardines and live in there shit.



It's okay UV, the cows themselves are not self aware animals and lack the ability to rationalise their environment.

They are incapable of caring about it.






are you fucking kidding me???? cows are self aware animals, cows mourn for weeks after there babies are taken from them and sold to veal farms. even if they couldnt rationalize their environment, they have a nervous system and I'm pretty damn sure that they feel it when they're hung upside down by one leg for four hours with their necks cut open and the blood and life slowly dripping from their bodies. Veal calves live their entire short lives in pens so small that they cant even turn around, just so that there skin is nice and tender. make your self sit down for 30 minutes straight without moving, now imagine not being able to move for your whole life. and over to the animal testing side of things, undercover P.e.T.A. agents working inside Huntingdon Life Sciences New Jersey facility actually filmed things such as the live dissection of monkeys, monkeys having tubes shoved down there throats, and monkeys the size of my arm getting punched in the face by workers. you can even watch the videos on www.peta.com . And by the way, not once has an ALF action directly harmed a person. They do property damage and arsonry with two motives in mind. 1., to cause as much financial problems as possible to the offenders so they are forced to close down. 2., to use it as a shock factor to get people's attention and then look at what their real cause is. It's groups like S.H.A.C. and the Animals Armed Militia that directly harm people.



And, in my opinion, my mother died from lung cancer and if there was some sort of cure that they could have found for her that would have involved animal testing, i would have gone against it. Even for my own mother i would not put hundreds of thousands of animals to their deaths.

I see humans as being no superior to other animals.

And as a final note: I'm a Vegan, call me fuckin annoying or whatever the hell you want, but im not a torturing murderer.




If the U.S. took %10 of the grain it grows for livestock and distributed it to third world countries, it would literally solve world hunger.


By eating meat, you aid the capitalists.


All the big imperialistic nations of the world are the wheat growers.


%75 of wheat grown is used to feed livestock

[LSD]

make your self sit down for 30 minutes straight without moving, now imagine not being able to move for your whole life

Ok, now you imagine being irradiated to death. Having your molecules break apart as you slowly decompose alive. Don't like it? Well, I'd imagine not, but that's what a cancer cell experiences durring chemotherapy.

How about being boiled alive? Not so much fun is it? Well, sorry, but that's what your body does to naturally fight bacteria.

Here's a good one, how about being crushed to death from above! How awful! But oh no :o that's what you just did to that poor little ant you stepped on. :(

And last but not least, how about being ripped apart and eaten!? :o

My God, that sounds like something those evil MEAT-EATERS would do! :angry:

But guess what? That was you eating your dinner of brussel-sprouts and baked carrots. :lol:

I'll bet that carrot sure didn't see the "vegan love" as you ripped it from the ground and "murdered" it!

You see, when you take the POV of a non-human life form, you anthropomorphize and hyperbolize. You delve into the realm of story telling which is a great ways away from the land of ratioanl discourse.

It was is not "wrong" to kill cancer cells, it is not "wrong" to kill bacteria, it is not "wrong" to eat carrots, and it is not "wrong" to eat meat. If you want to try and provide argumentation otherwise, that's one thing, but all that you have provided so far is a pittiful attempt at illiciting a pathetic response.

But then basically, that's all that PETA does, isn't it? I mean since it has virtually no rational argumenation to support its contention, it's pretty much got "no choice" but to perpetualy show horrific videos and mock holocaust victims.

That contention, incidently, is that we enact "total animal liberation". That is that we make all animals (but not plants, don't ask me why :rolleyes:), de facto members of human society with all rights and privelges thereof.

Not only is such a proposal ludicrous at face, it would also be monumentally destructive if ever enacted.

Luckily, of course, PETA doesn't have a chance in hell of ever getting any of its pie in the sky nutbag post-modern crap realized. Still, though, we're unfortunately forced to listen to their indefatigable blathering every time some new member of the cult of Newkirk manages to stumble their way onto this site.

So, OK, I&#39;ll bite, let&#39;s see what "new" "arguments" you&#39;ve got. <_<


are you fucking kidding me???? cows are self aware animals

So fucking what?

What does "self-aware" even mean? More importantly, what does it matter?

We&#39;re not talking about philosophy here, we&#39;re talking about reality. This is a question about the basic formation of human society and what its obligations are to external creatures.

You are contending that a collection of rational moral agents owes basic protections to implicit non-members out of solely emotionalist charity. Sorry, but that&#39;s not an argument.

Declaring that cows deserve special treatment but, say, bacterial meningitis does not is arbitrarity of the worst degree. I understand that cows are "cuter" than E. Coli and that they&#39;re so damn "sad" with those "big brown eyes", but your "achy breaky heart" is simply not a rational argument.

Society is a collection of codependent individuals that is required to serve its members. It has zero obligations beyond this.

Humans are bennefitted by a healthy ecosystem, they are also bennefited by minimizing animal suffering as it tends to distress us. But the elimination of all meat or all vivsective research would be unquestionably detrimental to human society and so cannot be undertaken.

Again, this is about objective rationality. Keep the sob stories on Oprah.


And by the way, not once has an ALF action directly harmed a person.

:rolleyes:

What nonsense&#33;

The "ALF" is not a distinct organization with clear definitive lines, it is a diverse group of urban terrorists, mostly tied with other like-minded "groups".

I would remind you that, for instance, the "Justice Department Manifesto" was proudly hoested on the ALF website. The "Justice Department", in case you&#39;re unaware, is the organization that sent rat poison dipped razor blades to scientists&#39; homes in order to effect their death.

Would you perhaps qualify that as "direct harm"? :angry:


I see humans as being no superior to other animals.

This isn&#39;t about "superiority" or "inferiority", it&#39;s about membership in human society and the application of franchise.

Non-human species are incapable of participating in human society and so cannot be given the protections of it. It isn&#39;t a "moral" issue, it&#39;s a practical one.


By eating meat, you aid the capitalists.

By doing most things, you aid the capitalists. That&#39;s the nature of living in capitalist society&#33;

That super-vegan nutri-health bar you bought from your local supermaket was made by workers who&#39;s labour was exploited to bennefit, you guessed it, capitalists.

Everytime you use currency, a capitalist somewhere is bennefiting. So unless you&#39;re accessing this site from your hermitage on an isolated tropical island, you&#39;re in it just as deep as the rest of us.

Remember, if capitalism wasn&#39;t ubiquitous, it wouldn&#39;t a problem. It is the capitalist control of society that motivates us to fight it.

It&#39;s not "hypocritical" to oppose oppression while being oppressed, it&#39;s natural.


And as a final note: I&#39;m a Vegan, call me fuckin annoying or whatever the hell you want, but im not a torturing murderer.

Wait a minute, you&#39;re giving me permission to call you "fuckin annoying"?

Damn, I wish you had put that at the beginning of your post instead of at the end. It would have spared me the effort of all that eloquent writing. :lol:

[Hegemonicretribution]

The means most of these groups use are not acceptable. Testing on animals for cosmetics is not acceptable. Testing on animals for medical purposes is largely not acceptable.

One thing that is often overlooked is the nature of medical research as it exists today. The vast majority of animal testing is not on drugs or treatments that will revolutionise medicine, or improve our lives, it is on profit making drugs.

When animal testing is used to achieve something new I think it is partially justified, and perhaps a necessary eveil, when this isn&#39;t the case (and it seldom is) then there is no such justification.

Most new medications are rebranded versions of a similar drug on the market, and the pharmecutical companies make shitloads from this. They can cite the breakthroughs that result form animal testing, but these are the exception and not the norm, but they don&#39;t tell you that.

Under capitalism animal testing is not really justified as a whole, under communism it would be far more acceptable.