Ecclesiastes

[Red Leader]

This is found right before song of solomon, and is apparently written by the son of david near the end of his life.

It basicly condridicts everything about the bible. It speaks about how life is completly uselss, and how false following religion is because it will only cause harm in the end, it also speaks about the uselssness of living a life purely for wealth, and basicly takes a very pessimistic aproach to the church in general.

Unlike the rest of the bible, this book says that that following all of God's orders is pointless, and in the end, the rich and the poor will end up living equally uselss lives.

I find this a very interesting part in the bible and wonder why it is there in the first place. apparently there was huge debate over whether it should be put in the bible in the first place. Anyone know why / what it is there for and what it really means?

[chaval]

i actually havent read or studied it but i do know that it all depends on its interpretation. a book that is canonized (like ecclesiasted) has its meaning and interpretation transformed as well as given a 'holyish' status. obviously it is being read differently and im assuming this reading is based on fairly reasonable grounds, if not, i cant see how they could possibly include something that rejects the rest of the bible. i do know that it concludes with something saying that we should just praise God or soemthing like that, it ends up saying do waht god says anways or soemthing like that but i also hear that might have been added after it was written

[Dyst]

Everything written in the Bible has been moved, edited, corrected and/or made up since the texts were originally written.

Some texts are closer to the source than others. An interesting fact, however, is that a lot of the texts which actually should have been included in the Bible and later was removed by the Chuch have been found spread around the world. When they have been found, the catholic church has (and still do) put a lot of pressure to keep it out of the public. Reasons could be for example that the texts may include episodes not known to the general christian public and therefore might "stir" their faith. Or that the texts actually contain something religiously explosive and dangerous (to the catholic church) of some sort.

I found your description of Ecclesiastes quite interesting. Read the book The Dead Sea Scrolls if you like this kind of stuff.

[Severian]

Originally posted by Red [email protected] 8 2006, 07:35 PM
I find this a very interesting part in the bible and wonder why it is there in the first place. apparently there was huge debate over whether it should be put in the bible in the first place. Anyone know why / what it is there for and what it really means?
It was apparently written at a time when Greek culture and philosophy were influencing Hebrew society, probably post-Alexander. The book of Job is similar in some ways - Job chews out God for his cruelty and God has no answer but "might makes right" (expressed much more poetically.)

Probably not written by the son of David any more than the first five books of the Bibile were written by Moses (the traditional belief.) The various parts of the Bible were written at many different times - even different parts of the same book, in some cases.

As for why they were included by the rabbinical council that compiled the modern Torah or Old Testament (in the 1st century A.D.?), I don't know. Maybe their poetic quality - which must be even greater in the original language - helped make them too popular and well-known to exclude.

Here's an article which takes up Ecclestiastes and Job in the context of Hellenistic philosophy. (http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/archives/2004/04-01-23.html) It's at the bottom of the page - the book review titled "A Stunning Chronicle of Unbelievers."

[chaval]

Everything written in the Bible has been moved, edited, corrected and/or made up since the texts were originally written.

actually surprisingly no. i dont actually know much about the texts of the new testament but those of the old testament and Hebrew Bible (which are different) have been preserved really really well. you mentioned the dead sea scrolls. those were written around the 1st century, some before that too and the texts are remarcably similar to those of the current bible. there are differences though but minor things such as spelling or phrasing. some guys wrote a book about how the catholic church didnt want some of the scrolls leaked out cause they were 'dangerous' but most (or mb all) of the texts have been released and theyre arguments were wrong


Job chews out God for his cruelty and God has no answer but "might makes right" (expressed much more poetically.)

no dude, at first it would seem so because Job goes on and on complaining. Brief summary: God tells the Devil that no man is better than Job and so to test his faith, Job's family is killed and he loses everything (i dont remember if it was God or the Devil who did it, i think the Devil though) upon hearing of the death of his family he praises God saying "the good lord giveth and the good lord taketh" but then more stuff happens to him and he complains. he later demands that God show him what he has done to deserve this. God answers by asking him if Job can make the Eagle fly and the Lion roar and the wind blow etc etc stuff like that then Job realizes that he is too unwise to understand how the world works and how his needs are so insignificant in the big picture and thus he has spoken without knowledge. So in the end the majesty and greatness and ineffableness of God is reafirmed though this theme (of man's smallness) is not one that is continued in the other texts of the Bible