A weird question

[Abood]

Ok, here's the question...
who had the idea of creating countries and who created the first country!?
What was his ideology and why did he create a country?

[Amusing Scrotum]

Originally posted by Socialist [email protected] 8 2006, 07:14 PM
who had the idea of creating countries and who created the first country!?

If I'm not mistaken, the idea of a "Nation State" was a proposal of the emerging bourgeois.

It consisted of clearly drawn boundaries (feudal nations didn't really have "boundaries") under which (theoretically) trade could flourish and invasions would stop been as the boundaries made the State "private property" that shouldn't be "robbed" (invaded).

[Tormented by Treachery]

All of this is around Louis XVI, right?

[Abood]

All of this is around Louis XVI, right?
but wasnt Louis XVI the leader of France? so wasn't France a country?!

[More Fire for the People]

I suppose the first countries arose in either Northern Africa, Levant, Persia, or India. My bet is that Egypt was the first country in the modern sense.

[Amusing Scrotum]

Originally posted by Tormented by Treachery+Feb 8 2006, 07:42 PM--> (Tormented by Treachery @ Feb 8 2006, 07:42 PM) All of this is around Louis XVI, right? [/b]

Yep, 1789.


Socialist Advocate
....so wasn't France a country?!

It wasn't a "Nation State" in the modern sense.

[Abood]

It wasn't a "Nation State" in the modern sense.
Then what exactly was it?!

[Amusing Scrotum]

Originally posted by Socialist [email protected] 8 2006, 08:05 PM

It wasn't a "Nation State" in the modern sense.
Then what exactly was it?!

A large grouping of landed estates.

[gilhyle]

Unless you include tribes claiming territories, the original 'countries' were the regional alliances or networks of trading cities united by the king of one or another conquering other cities and I guess we are talking somewhere in the middle east 5k bc. Thus the emergence of the 'country coincides with the transition to organised agriculture, the emergence of urban trading centres thus trading kingdoms.

If you do include tribal territories.......the original 'country' predates the human species.

[Global_Justice]

i would say the first country would have been greece or egypt, whichever cam first.

[Amusing Scrotum]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2006, 10:15 PM
i would say the first country would have been greece or egypt, whichever cam first.

Well you see, they were Empires with no borders as far as I'm aware.

A "Nation State", like a house, has "boundaries" which are (theoretically) not supposed to be invaded and other "Nation States" should (theoretically) respect the boundaries of other "Nation States".

It is an extension of Private Property.

[cbm989]

yea...greece and rome and what not were empires, where their borders constantly changed and werent official. also many parts of the empire had very little to do with the people who conquered them besides paying taxes to them (Roman empire) so i dont think it can be considered a country

[Global_Justice]

what did the romans ever do for us :lol:

[Amusing Scrotum]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 10:18 PM
what did the romans ever do for us :lol:

They made great strides in the development of cement. :D

[barret]

Originally posted by Armchair Socialism+Feb 9 2006, 05:39 PM--> (Armchair Socialism @ Feb 9 2006, 05:39 PM)
[email protected] 8 2006, 10:15 PM
i would say the first country would have been greece or egypt, whichever cam first.

Well you see, they were Empires with no borders as far as I'm aware.

A "Nation State", like a house, has "boundaries" which are (theoretically) not supposed to be invaded and other "Nation States" should (theoretically) respect the boundaries of other "Nation States".

It is an extension of Private Property. [/b]
I wouldn't have considered egypt an empire, they were probably the closest to being a country, as everyone who lived under them shared the same nationality.

[Jadan ja]

I don't think that is completely true, berret. In certain periods Egypt controled some territories where non Egyptian people lived. Also, Egyptians had slaves of different nationality.

[Amusing Scrotum]

Originally posted by barret+Feb 10 2006, 04:05 AM--> (barret @ Feb 10 2006, 04:05 AM)
Originally posted by Armchair [email protected] 9 2006, 05:39 PM

[email protected] 8 2006, 10:15 PM
i would say the first country would have been greece or egypt, whichever cam first.

Well you see, they were Empires with no borders as far as I'm aware.

A "Nation State", like a house, has "boundaries" which are (theoretically) not supposed to be invaded and other "Nation States" should (theoretically) respect the boundaries of other "Nation States".

It is an extension of Private Property.
I wouldn't have considered egypt an empire, they were probably the closest to being a country, as everyone who lived under them shared the same nationality. [/b]

Nationalism as an ideological concept came about in the 18th or 19th century. Indeed Marat, Robespierre and co. can possibly be called the first "French Patriots" and indeed all bourgeois revolutions - to one degree or another - played on the concept of an "United People" under the banner of "Liberty".

As for Egypt - what particular times are you thinking of? - it was an Empire which paid no respect to the boundaries of other countries, because at that time they didn't exist.

It is quite possible some of the old Empires had similarities with todays "Nation States" but that doesn't make them "Nation States". Indeed most of the "Nation States" in the Middle East were thought up by the British and French ruling class.

They drew the boundaries and named the countries! The same is true for most of Africa and perhaps large parts of Asia.

Actually some of you might be interested in this wikipedia article....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation-state

It dates the start of the "Nation State" to the Treaty of Westphalia (1648). Wikipedia is great! :D

[Severian]

Originally posted by Armchair Socialism+Feb 8 2006, 01:39 PM--> (Armchair Socialism @ Feb 8 2006, 01:39 PM)
Socialist [email protected] 8 2006, 07:14 PM
who had the idea of creating countries and who created the first country!?

If I'm not mistaken, the idea of a "Nation State" was a proposal of the emerging bourgeois.

It consisted of clearly drawn boundaries (feudal nations didn't really have "boundaries") under which (theoretically) trade could flourish and invasions would stop been as the boundaries made the State "private property" that shouldn't be "robbed" (invaded). [/b]
Right. And the boundaries of the nation-state defined a national market. Trade barriers within the nation-state were lowered and abolished - previously, all kinds of barons, dukes, and free cities had levied their own tolls and tariffs.

In those cases where the boundaries of the state roughly corresponded to the boundaries of a pre-existing people, language, and/or culture, that also helped define the national market. But no existing nation-state fits the ideal nationalist concept of being the state of a single people; maybe France comes closer than most.

The ideology of nationalism or patriotism proceeded from this - the French Revolution was a big example of it. Previously, most people thought of themselves as subjects of a king or lord, residents of a region or citizens of a city - their primary loyalty was not to a country.

Nation-states were not the product of any individual or ideology, but rather of the rise of capitalism. The consolidation of power by a single king (absolute monarchy) was a stage in the rise of capitalism and the nation-state - the bourgeois-democratic revolutions were a further stage.

The empires of the ancient and medieval world were usually sprawling, decentralized, and included a great many nations, peoples, and/or cultures - they were defined by allegiance to a single emperor, not membership in a single nation. Different areas would obey that emperor in different ways - directly, through vassals, etc. Feudal states was especially complex - a downright maze of different jurisdictions.

The Holy Roman Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holy_Roman_Empire) was the ultimate example of this. Wikipedia's probably right about the Peace of Westphalia as the first official recognition of a different, national, concept. The HRE did never really recovered - its emperors' only real power was as rulers of Austria-Hungary.