The Pledge of Alleigience. [Archive]

cbm989

7th February 2006, 22:36

my (public) school doesnt even say it, althoguh required by law. Its a very left-leaning school. i love it. if they start making us i will not stand. i see it as a tool of propoganda to reach kids at a young age to learn to obey and respect the government. which is shit

Ol' Dirty

7th February 2006, 22:37

Lucky. :lol:

loveme4whoiam

7th February 2006, 22:38

I stood for the National Anthem. Dunno why, I guess it was a programmed response, like saluting the Union flag.

Question - in American courts do you still have to swear to "tell the truth, the whole truth, so help you God?"

cbm989

7th February 2006, 22:45

^i believe so, otherwise everything you say is null and void. thats an interesting thing to bring up. someone needs to work on this. *cough ACLU *cough

Tormented by Treachery

7th February 2006, 22:50

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 11:03 PM
I stood for the National Anthem. Dunno why, I guess it was a programmed response, like saluting the Union flag.

Question - in American courts do you still have to swear to "tell the truth, the whole truth, so help you God?"
Yeah, and with a hand over the fucking Bible. Separation of church and state, I guess they really meant separation of mosque/synagogue/paganry from state.

By the way, as a measure of how well ingrained it is into my skull (I haven't recited it in at least 4 years, up to this second) here it is, for those who don't know:

"I pledge allegiance,
To the flag,
Of the United States of America.
And to the Republic,
For which it stands,
One nation, under God,
Indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all."

Like the brainwashing going on?

Also, did you know that the Star Spangled Banner is based on an Irish drinking song?

Ol' Dirty

7th February 2006, 23:03

Also, did you know that the Star Spangled Banner is based on an Irish drinking song?

Actually, it was based on a poem writen during the War of 1812.

Everyday Anarchy

7th February 2006, 23:35

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 11:01 PM
my (public) school doesnt even say it, althoguh required by law.
No, it's not required by law.
Supreme Court has stated that it's unconstitutional to be forced to say it.

I didn't stand last year for it. And I didn't stand for most of it this year. I say most because, well... I'm a bit scared of my teacher. He's a big guy, really strict too. I just don't want to get on his bad side.
I stand, cover my heart, look at my feet, and move my mouth.
I also stand during the National Anthem when around my family. I respect that they don't have "extremist" ideas like I do, so I do it out of respect to them. I don't want to them to feel embarrassed or anything when people see me sitting.

which doctor

7th February 2006, 23:47

I haven't said that rag for over a year. My school doesn't say it at all. It's just nationalist bullshit.

More Fire for the People

8th February 2006, 00:05

I'm forced to stand. So I do the next best thing I don't say it and I distract others.

Ol' Dirty

8th February 2006, 00:12

Resist. If you get punished, you did it for the right cause.

anomaly

8th February 2006, 00:25

Sure, I stand to pay respect, but I do not actually say anything. Being a communist, I do not think it is wise to pledge allegiance to the American flag. And so I have not pledged allegiance for several years.

Everyday Anarchy

8th February 2006, 00:27

You can't be forced to stand.

I remember last year, when I first started sitting.
The teacher would always pull me aside in the hallways and stuff telling me that I'm being extremely disrespectful and that I needs to stand.
I always said "Alright, I will :-\" then I'd sit again ^_^

About a month later, a little disagreement erupted into a shouting match between me and the teacher and out of nowhere he shouts "WHY DON'T YOU STAND FOR THE FRICKIN PLEDGE?!?!"
It caught me off guard and I just kind of froze.

Since I had that same teacher for PE later, I just skipped class and went down to the counsellor, told her about what happened and she talked to the teacher.

No problems with him ever since.

EDIT:

Being a communist, I do not think it is wise to pledge allegiance to the American flag. And so I have not pledged allegiance for several years.
Meh, not like there's any kind of supernatural binding with the pledge :P
As a matter of fact, we should all try and blend in with loyal citizens as much as possible. Then BAM! Take them off guard and topple their empire! :ph34r:

SanPatricio'sSoul

8th February 2006, 00:32

I don't stand either, in fact when it says "and liberty and justice to all" I always say "except for the poor and minorities"

anomaly

8th February 2006, 00:32

Well, that last part is certainly true. Nevertheless, I take 'pledging allegiance' to something quite seriously. This being the case, it would simply be untrue for me to pledge my allegiance, since I do not pledge my allegiance.

Then again, perhaps I'm being too honest!

Janus

8th February 2006, 00:44

I think that it students are required to at least stand for most states. In Texas, the Texas pledge is also recited. However, enforcement is usually left up to the teacher (our government isn't fascist yet). I don't stand for the pledge simply because it totally contradicts the current state of the US and I don't want to pledge my loyalty to any of it. Here's an idea, the US should just stop with the charades and go back to the Bellamy salute :lol: .

anomaly

8th February 2006, 01:03

Have I mentioned that here in Indiana (the Mississippi of the north) we not only have to say the pledge every day, but we also must have a 15 second moment of silence. Talk about reactionary!

which doctor

8th February 2006, 01:07

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 08:28 PM
Have I mentioned that here in Indiana (the Mississippi of the north) we not only have to say the pledge every day, but we also must have a 15 second moment of silence. Talk about reactionary!
Hmm...I think I remember something about that. Is that a new law? We didn't have to do that last year when I was in Indiana. That really sucks. Suggest to your principal that since you have 15 seconds for mourning, you should also have 15 seconds for celebration.

fickle_indeed

8th February 2006, 01:11

I stand silently, hands by my side. Somtimes i think about bursting out with that greenday song.."I pledge allegience to the underworld one nation under dog there of which i stand alone" I wonder what would happen if i did that.. or didn't even get up. hmm... i bet the ***** would fail me.

( R )evolution

8th February 2006, 01:22

I stop saying the pledge since the 6th or 7th grade and I am in 9th grade. I started just to stand and move around. I became a believer in communism about 5 months ago and I have complete stop standing, but I feel kinda of akward sometimes and I might stand but it will take almost a third of the song for me to get up.

Ol' Dirty

8th February 2006, 01:37

We have a "moment of silence" at our school. It's around a minute, and our homroom teacher makes us shut up. Yes, very reactionary.

violencia.Proletariat

8th February 2006, 01:45

What is this "I stand for respect bullshit"? Thee people who pray to a piece of fabric dont reserve respect, just a class on rationality :lol: .

Everyday Anarchy

8th February 2006, 01:57

Guess I shouldn't respect my parents.
I mean, what have they ever done for me?!
pfft.

Delirium

8th February 2006, 02:28

I think this is on topic/amusing

cbm989

8th February 2006, 05:02

^haha. and i understand standing out of respect for others opinions, but shouldnt they respect YOUR views? why should you accomodate them, why not have them accomodate you?

Ol' Dirty

8th February 2006, 16:36

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2006, 05:27 AM

why should you accomodate them, why not have them accomodate you?

I believe in mutual respect for all individuals, no matter how false their opinions are. The only thing you can do is persuade them not to. If they decline, fuck 'em. Peoples opinions really don't matter that much anyway.

Zero

8th February 2006, 17:29

Last time I said the pledge was the day before watching Hotel Rwanda.

Ol' Dirty

8th February 2006, 18:04

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2006, 05:54 PM
Last time I said the pledge was the day before watching Hotel Rwanda.
That was an excellent movie.

Tormented by Treachery

8th February 2006, 19:33

Originally posted by FluxOne13+Feb 8 2006, 06:29 PM--> (FluxOne13 @ Feb 8 2006, 06:29 PM)
[email protected] 8 2006, 05:54 PM
Last time I said the pledge was the day before watching Hotel Rwanda.
That was an excellent movie. [/b]
Indeed it was. I went out and bought it, then realized the irony of it.

Ol' Dirty

8th February 2006, 20:18

I don't quite understand what you mean. Do you mean you didn't find it as interesting after watching it once?

Global_Justice

8th February 2006, 21:03

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2006, 08:43 PM
I don't quite understand what you mean. Do you mean you didn't find it as interesting after watching it once?
i think he means the irony of going out and purchasing a DVD (a luxury), considering the film is about people with nothing. :) rwanda is a good film, i do film studies at college and we watched it, it's a joke, the people in my class said it really affected them and were saying how guilty they felt and all that bullshit. but for them it was nothing that a good shopping trip around the mall wouldn't sort out :angry:

i'm in england (thats in europe ;) ), i really don't understand how you have to do that in school. i can't understand how any leftist could pledge alliegience to the US.

In england our national anthem is "god save the queen", which i don't stand for, but (as my family is scottish) i stand, sing along proudly to the scottish national anthem "flower of scotland". it's quite a revolutionary song anyway, about fighting englands army and winning freedom.

Global_Justice

8th February 2006, 21:07

sorry about the dig about "thats in europe"

it's just, the last time i was in america, some american dude asked me where i was from, i said england, he replied "is that in australia" i said no, so he asked "where's that located at?" i was safely up in a balcony so i shouted back "it's in this place called 'the world', it's the thing your country is taking over ;) ".

when i was in philly last year i went to a phillies MlB game, i stood for the US national anthem, because i'm foreign so thought i should respect the culture.

loveme4whoiam

8th February 2006, 21:17

In my old, pro-monarchy days I thought the anthem should be changed to "Rule Britannia" or "Land of Hope and Glory". They're hardly revolutionary (pretty nationalistic though) but are good tunes :P

I take pledges of oath very seriously, and not knowingly have I ever sworn allegiance to any Government. When I was part of the ATC (basically Air Cadets) I'm pretty sure their oath includes swearing fealty to the Queen, but taking a pledge like that when you are thirteen doesn't mean much.

violencia.Proletariat

8th February 2006, 21:44

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 10:22 PM
Guess I shouldn't respect my parents.
I mean, what have they ever done for me?!
pfft.
Well if they are forcing you take part in a semi-religious bullshit prayer then they dont deserve respect even if they have housed and fed you. It was their choice to have you in the first place.

Ol' Dirty

9th February 2006, 00:31

Originally posted by nate+Feb 8 2006, 10:09 PM--> (nate @ Feb 8 2006, 10:09 PM)
[/b]

[email protected] 7 2006, 10:22 PM
Guess I shouldn't respect my parents.
I mean, what have they ever done for me?!
pfft.

Well if they are forcing you take part in a semi-religious bullshit prayer then they dont deserve respect even if they have housed and fed you.

How are they forcing you? They really can't force you to do anything; they can ground you, but you can say or not say whatever you want. You can justg respectfully decline. Tell them you love them, but it's against your moral principles to stand for something you don't believe in.

It was their choice to have you in the first place.

It was their choice to have a child, yes, but it wasn't their choice to have him/her.

Tormented by Treachery

9th February 2006, 00:49

Originally posted by Global_Justice+Feb 8 2006, 09:28 PM--> (Global_Justice @ Feb 8 2006, 09:28 PM)
[email protected] 8 2006, 08:43 PM
I don't quite understand what you mean. Do you mean you didn't find it as interesting after watching it once?
i think he means the irony of going out and purchasing a DVD (a luxury), considering the film is about people with nothing. :) [/b]
Bingo!

And I understand your assumption that Americans are ignorant: most of us are.

Ol' Dirty

9th February 2006, 00:54

Thank you for clarifying that.

Red Leader

9th February 2006, 01:40

Actually, it was based on a poem writen during the War of 1812.

yeah, a war the americans LOST!!!!!!! :P :P

Isnt that ironic?

anyway, since i live in canada im not subjected to any stupid recitations of reactionary capitalist propaganda.

However, im not sure if i have it worse. I go to a catholic school and everyday we have to stand up and "pray" or have a "reflection" and its usually some bullshit reading of something the chaplin found off of the internet, or a recitation of the lord's prayer / hail mary.

I kind of have to stand, but i never recite it, or do that stupid father, son, holy spirit crossing of the heart thing. :blink:

Janus

9th February 2006, 01:40

Behold! This is what the pledge used to be like till the Nazi government took power in Germany. Perhaps one can gain some insight into what it means to pledge your allegiance to the flag, eh.

Dreckt

9th February 2006, 01:45

It is interesting, isn't it? 200 years ago, the US was just about the only free country in the world. Now, it's one of the most restricted of countries.

It's called multiculturalism (or something like it), which we have where I live. And my country is practically still a kingdom/monarchy.

And I also like what Micael Douglas said in one of his movies (playing his "usual role of president/CO") - that America also should learn children in school to burn the American flag, because they have every right to do so. What's the punishment for this? 10 years in prison?

which doctor

9th February 2006, 01:48

Originally posted by Red [email protected] 8 2006, 09:05 PM

Actually, it was based on a poem writen during the War of 1812.

yeah, a war the americans LOST!!!!!!! :P :P
Yeah, we sure lost. That's why we praise the Queen in our pledge of allegiance.

It was more like England gave up on fighting.

Janus

9th February 2006, 01:57

Funny that you mention that war. It's pretty much neglected by many Americans since it was a pretty embarrasing part of American history. After all, the British burned Washington D.C. and occupied Maine. But the fighting stopped cause it had pretty much ended in a standstill in all the fronts.

cbm989

9th February 2006, 04:21

i think we should get the pledge out of public schools. feel free to say it on your own but forcing people to is anything but free. does anyone know the penalty for burning a flag

Everyday Anarchy

9th February 2006, 04:30

There is no penalty for burning a flag. It's legal.
People have been trying forever to pass an amendment to ban flag burning. But Supreme Court says it is freedom of expression, which can't be taken away.

Also, you are not forced to say the pledge. You may encounter what a lot of "pledge sitters" encounter-- harrassment by students and faculty. But they cannot punish you for sitting.

cbm989

9th February 2006, 21:44

^ohhh thanks man good to know

Revolution 9

9th February 2006, 23:07

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 09:40 PM
Do you guys stand for the Pledge of Alleigience in public places? Personally, I just stand to be respectfull of other peoples ignorant opinions of statism and nationalism. I never hold my hand over my heart, and I don't say anything.

What do you do?
Heh, I do the exact same thing. I remember we were forced to do the Pledge in middle school - much to my Moslem friend's and my dismay.

Revolution 9

9th February 2006, 23:09

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2006, 02:05 AM
Behold! This is what the pledge used to be like till the Nazi government took power in Germany. Perhaps one can gain some insight into what it means to pledge your allegiance to the flag, eh.
I think this is some kind of joke or something, because I really don't see any historical reason why American schoolchildren would be giving the 88 in class.

Probably some prank if you ask me.

violencia.Proletariat

10th February 2006, 00:10

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2006, 08:56 PM

How are they forcing you? They really can't force you to do anything; they can ground you, but you can say or not say whatever you want. You can justg respectfully decline. Tell them you love them, but it's against your moral principles to stand for something you don't believe in.

It wasnt me saying they were being forced, quite a few people in this thread claimed they were forced.

I dont have moral principles, moralism is stupid. I'd rather base my arguements on real facts and data which gives it more merit, not petty morals.

It was their choice to have a child, yes, but it wasn't their choice to have him/her.

That doesnt make any sense, you dont know what your child is going to be like, so you aware you are taking a chance.

Bannockburn

10th February 2006, 21:09

I'm forced to stand. So I do the next best thing I don't say it and I distract others.

Smart.

I have a very long history concerning this topic. My first "brush" with the authority concerning this topic was in grade two. I was like five or whatever and i was standing like a good little solider, but I wasn't saying the words. Not because of any real reason. I was five at the time. Anyway, the teacher noticed that my friend and I were saying the pledge. Well, after the standard propaganda they put us through in the morning my friend and I had to stand by ourselves and say it over in class in front of everyone. After that we had to stay in for recess and write a paper of the dangers of communism.

this was back in like 1986. cold war going on. shit like that. I stop standing for political reasons back in 93 during the first gulf war. All throughout high school I never said it. I never got in trouble. Some teachers *****ed, but a lot of students didn't stand or recite it. So it wasn't a big deal.

During events where the anthem is spoken, I don't stand or sing it. Funny thing though is because I live in Canada, but an American by citizenship. Sometimes people look at me weird, but I'm a free spirit whereas they are slaves.

Zak

11th February 2006, 15:01

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 09:36 PM
After that we had to stay in for recess and write a paper of the dangers of communism.
Ha, I can see you really took that lesson to heart. :D

But serriously how much does a five year old know about economic systems?

Abood

11th February 2006, 15:34

sorry, im not american, what's the pledge of alleigience?

Ol' Dirty

11th February 2006, 20:08

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2006, 12:37 AM

How are they forcing you? They really can't force you to do anything; they can ground you, but you can say or not say whatever you want. You can justg respectfully decline. Tell them you love them, but it's against your moral principles to stand for something you don't believe in.

It wasnt me saying they were being forced, quite a few people in this thread claimed they were forced.

Yeah, you did.

Well if they are forcing you take part in a semi-religious bullshit prayer then they dont deserve respect even if they have housed and fed you.

Pay attention, dude.

I dont have moral principles, moralism is stupid. I'd rather base my arguements on real facts and data which gives it more merit, not petty morals.

So you'd be fine with kiling a new-born infant in the name of Communism?

It was their choice to have a child, yes, but it wasn't their choice to have him/her.

That doesnt make any sense, you dont know what your child is going to be like, so you aware you are taking a chance.

I mean the parent has the choice of giving birth, but the parent doesn't control what their child belives in, what they want to be, what they are like in the future, what their personallity is like; they can't control their child as a person.

C_Rasmussen

11th February 2006, 20:18

I stood but only so I wouldn't get hassled for it. I wouldn't really pay much attention though :D.

Tormented by Treachery

11th February 2006, 20:22

Originally posted by Socialist [email protected] 11 2006, 04:01 PM
sorry, im not american, what's the pledge of alleigience?
I typed it out on page one of this thread. It's a very prayer-like poem of propaganda (no alliteration intended) that many schools force the kids to stand and say, although at varying frequencies.

violencia.Proletariat

12th February 2006, 03:29

So you'd be fine with kiling a new-born infant in the name of Communism?

Bullshit hypothetical situation. A new born infants life or death would never stand in the way of the proletariat achieving communism. Take your petty moralistic arguements somewhere else.

I mean the parent has the choice of giving birth, but the parent doesn't control what their child belives in, what they want to be, what they are like in the future, what their personallity is like; they can't control their child as a person.

Sure they can man, why do you think so many people are christian :lol:

I was speaking with a girl tonight who was slapped everytime she said god, because that was taking the lords name in vain. :o But she's ok with that now and said she would do the same to her kids :(

Delirium

12th February 2006, 16:30

I mean the parent has the choice of giving birth, but the parent doesn't control what their child belives in, what they want to be, what they are like in the future, what their personallity is like; they can't control their child as a person.

They have absolute control over the information the child is exposed to, for a long time. You may have a few people who reject they way of thinking that they had developed, but most people are stuck in whatever view of the world they were brought up with.

Ol' Dirty

14th February 2006, 21:16

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 03:56 AM

So you'd be fine with kiling a new-born infant in the name of Communism?

Bullshit hypothetical situation. A new born infants life or death would never stand in the way of the proletariat achieving communism. Take your petty moralistic arguements somewhere else.

It was just an example; you don't have to get pissy about it. I'm not going fucking anywhere. If you have a problem with my arguments, too bad. What's wrong with doing what you think is right?

I mean the parent has the choice of giving birth, but the parent doesn't control what their child belives in, what they want to be, what they are like in the future, what their personallity is like; they can't control their child as a person.

Sure they can man, why do you think so many people are christian :lol:

My father was raised in the South; way down in Kentucky. His parents were fundementalist nuts; in fact, his father was a minister. His mother is insanely religious, and his first wife was a deeply religious woman. Guess what... my father is an Atheist, as am I. Please, don't give me shit about "parental control". We all have choices, and nothing's pre-determined.

I was speaking with a girl tonight who was slapped everytime she said god, because that was taking the lords name in vain. :o But she's ok with that now and said she would do the same to her kids :(

I feel sorry for her. She and her parents have made an awful choice.

violencia.Proletariat

14th February 2006, 21:31

My father was raised in the South; way down in Kentucky. His parents were fundementalist nuts; in fact, his father was a minister. His mother is insanely religious, and his first wife was a deeply religious woman. Guess what... my father is an Atheist, as am I. Please, don't give me shit about "parental control". We all have choices, and nothing's pre-determined.

Good for him. But he's a luckly case. Yes in the theoretical sense everyone has "choices" but when you are indoctrinized from a young age and never really learn these other choices, your most likely not going to change your mind. These religious nuts can do many things to make sure their kid never finds out about atheism with any accuracy.

I feel sorry for her. She and her parents have made an awful choice.

Yes, I feel sorry for her too. But its an example of what I've said above. However, I'm hopeing to change her mind

Livetrueordie

15th February 2006, 01:20

It is the law that schools give time for students to say the pledge and also time for prayer. It is against the law to force students to do either of these. If any school official does such a thing you should get in contact with your states ACLU office. You should also be aware that it is illegal for public schools to stop you from handing out pamphlets, where clothing with any sort of writing on it, or censor you in any other way unless it disrupts the learning environment.

STN

16th February 2006, 01:10

Yea, me and my friend are in a band. We almost got suspended for not pledging to the flag, we still didnt, but the school gave us a warning.

Ol' Dirty

16th February 2006, 01:26

My father was raised in the South; way down in Kentucky. His parents were fundementalist nuts; in fact, his father was a minister. His mother is insanely religious, and his first wife was a deeply religious woman. Guess what... my father is an Atheist, as am I. Please, don't give me shit about "parental control". We all have choices, and nothing's pre-determined.

Good for him. But he's a luckly case.

Actually, most Atheists are born in religious housholds. Atheism and Agnosticism have their roots in one thing: questions. That's is where science comes from: questions. Everybody can question.

Yes, I feel sorry for her too. But its an example of what I've said above. However, I'm hopeing to change her mind

I feel sorry for her. She and her parents have made an awful choice.

Don't bet on it. People are afraid of change, stubborn. Once people have made up their minds, their minds probably aren't going to change. Change can only happen from within.

Livetrueordie

16th February 2006, 01:55

Yea, me and my friend are in a band. We almost got suspended for not pledging to the flag, we still didnt, but the school gave us a warning.
you and your friend are in a band... i don't understand what this has to do with anything. anyways if you are warned to say the pledge and punished for not, you should definitely take legal action against the school. This of course doesn't apply to you if you attend a private school.