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sovietsniper
2nd February 2006, 15:49
Today is the annervesery of the soviet victory at stalingrad. The battle in the city and marshal zuckovs encirciling operathion, uranus was a great victory over nazi germany. Over a quarter of a million germans died and 90,000 captured aloung with over a at least 500,000 soviet dead.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/s...000/3573003.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/february/2/newsid_3573000/3573003.stm)

Sentinel
2nd February 2006, 17:38
Although I already knew this, reading about the Red Army's perhaps most glorious victory made me feel really good.. Hitler promoted Paulus to field marshal to make him more receptive to the idea of fighting to the last man and "dying as a hero."

It didn't work out that well. :lol:

Did you know that Paulus also acted as a witness for the prosecution at the Nuremberg trials, and spent his last years in DDR?


Originally posted by Wikipedia
Paulus remains a controversial historic figure, due to his late conversion to the anti-Nazi cause and behaviour towards Hitler. He is frequently unfavourably compared with Erwin Rommel, who came from a similar background of a family with no great military distinction, who was also much favoured by Hitler, and whose resistance to his patron led to his being forced to end his own life by swallowing cyanide.

Friedrich Paulus died in East Germany, as an inspector of police.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_von_Paulus

ReD_ReBeL
2nd February 2006, 18:04
Yes this sure was a great historic battle which luckily went in our way. Although im not all for some of the tactics Stalin used. He forbidded Civillians to evacuate the city, leaving woman and children to build trenchworks and protective fortifications. Although i say i do not agree with this tactic, it was probably a nessesarry step to take to fight off the Axis forces.

viva le revolution
2nd February 2006, 19:42
The victory of Stalingrad was brought about thanks to the selfless determination and courage of the Soviet Comrades and the infallible spirit of socialism.
However i would disagree with redrebel in his analysis of soviet conditions and the mistaken belief that women and children were forced to work by the communist government. Even the british imperial meuseum's documentary on world war 2, ' the world at war' negates this. Of course such assertions rest on mere stalin-phobia and nothing else.
The soviet women comrades had their own reasons for fighting in the battle.
First, the massive increase in theirb status in society would not be possible without socialism and class struggle. This is highlighted by the fact that after the fall of the Soviet union, women have suffered a massive fall in social status. Their fight was to keep in place a system that granted them more freedom and respect than ever before. I will post later on about the benefits of women in the Soviet union.
Another factor was the massive sense of community and self-sacrifice for a cause they found just that emerged in Soviet society. Such a feeling of solidarity on a mass level is not possible under capitalism.

ComradeOm
2nd February 2006, 19:57
Originally posted by The [email protected] 2 2006, 05:57 PM
Did you know that Paulus also acted as a witness for the prosecution at the Nuremberg trials, and spent his last years in DDR?
I had no idea about that. Frankly I'm very surprised that he managed to stay alive.

Sentinel
2nd February 2006, 20:22
Originally posted by ComradeOm+--> (ComradeOm) I had no idea about that. Frankly I'm very surprised that he managed to stay alive [/b]

I guess he understood he'd been betting on the wrong horse and did a lot of thinking in captivity.. If he really eventually became some kind of leftist, I'm not sure.

At least he publicly rejected nazism and chose to settle down in a socialist country after the war. :)


Wikipedia
Paulus's inability or unwillingness to save his men by taking a decision against the will of Hitler to extricate the army from an impossible position puts him in an historically unfavourable light. However, he also refused to take his own life as Hitler had suggested. Paulus was expected to hold Stalingrad to the death. Hitler promoted Paulus to the rank of field marshal, after the Sixth Army's fate was sealed. Since no German field marshal in history had ever surrendered, the implication was clear.

Despite this, he made a surrender, hours after he was raised to the marshal's rank, in February 1943. He became a vocal critic of the Nazi regime while in Soviet captivity, joining the Russian-sponsored National Committee for a Free Germany and appealing to Germans to surrender. He later acted as a witness for the prosecution at the Nuremberg trials. He was released in 1953, two years before the repatriation of the remaining German POWs (mostly other Stalingrad veterans) who had been designated war criminals by the Soviets.

Janus
2nd February 2006, 22:20
The Battle of Stalingrad was the turning point on the Eastern front. It is estimated that the Germans had 850,000 casualties while the Soviets had over a million including civilan casualties. By all meaures, Stalingrad was the largest battle in human history and showed the tenacity and determination of the Soviet people. The German Army never fully recovered after this defeat, which caused Hitler to to declare a total mobilization of Germany (a bit too late for that matter).

leftist resistance
3rd February 2006, 10:32
I read a book which wrote that the Soviet workers continued producing tanks in factories while shells rained around them.i have much admiration for the soviet army and the people.their determination and courage defeated the nazis who were technically more superior.


leaving woman and children to build trenchworks and protective fortifications.

some women did volunteered themselves in the army.i read somewhere(red-army.com or something,i can't recall) about a personal recollection of a female volunteer sniper

I am disgusted that much of the West(and opponents of socialism) potray the Red Army as an oppressive force that would shoot its own troops.There is even a big lie that soviet troops raped women in places they occupy

Sentinel
3rd February 2006, 16:54
There is even a big lie that soviet troops raped women in places they occupy

Sadly, I'm afraid that some soldiers of all the armies did that in WWII, and in most wars.. After the enormous atrocities committed by the Nazis in eastern europe, there was a craving for vengeance among the troops and morally disadvantaged individuals always exist..

Mass-rapes though I find hard to believe were committed. But war always turns certain individuals into beasts, see what happened in Yugoslavia in the nineties.. :(

This said, I'm convinced that the political comissars and higher ranking officers of the Red Army did what was in their power to prevent this.

The german population feared the approaching Red Army to the extent that they committed suicide in large numbers, but the retaliation was never as extensive as they had feared.

sovietsniper
3rd February 2006, 16:57
Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 10:51 AM
I read a book which wrote that the Soviet workers continued producing tanks in factories while shells rained around them.i have much admiration for the soviet army and the people.their determination and courage defeated the nazis who were technically more superior.


leaving woman and children to build trenchworks and protective fortifications.

some women did volunteered themselves in the army.i read somewhere(red-army.com or something,i can't recall) about a personal recollection of a female volunteer sniper

I am disgusted that much of the West(and opponents of socialism) potray the Red Army as an oppressive force that would shoot its own troops.There is even a big lie that soviet troops raped women in places they occupy
Many soviet troops were shoot by there officers or NKVD units, patecully in the winter war

There were many women snipers, soviet women were arguby better then soviet men

The red army mass raped german women in hugh numbers, especially in prussia and berlin

Sentinel
3rd February 2006, 18:30
The extention of the rapes is debatable I guess. None the less they were unacceptable. I'm also aware that NKVD did shoot deserters and such, but again so did all armies to some extent.

Who raped and shot most is a little irrelevant, when everybody did after all. One could claim that the USSR being socialists should have been above that kind of behavior, to which I'd agree of course. And nothing can justify violation of human rights! :angry:

But desperate methods such as the shootings of deserters were kind of understandable even if not acceptable considering the desperate situation when the Nazis (not the Salvation Army) had occupied half of european Russia and were at the gates of Leningrad and Moscow.

What do you mean by the winter war? that of Finland?

ComradeOm
3rd February 2006, 18:31
Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 10:51 AM
There is even a big lie that soviet troops raped women in places they occupy
Where did you get this claim? The mass rapes and violence involved in the Red Army’s conquest of Prussia and Germany are very well documented. They were in themselves a response to the horrific atrocities committed by the Wehrmacht in their advance in Russia. Equally well documented crimes.

The greatest misconception is that all Soviet Army’s soldiers were savages. The frontline troops behaved honourably by all accounts. The majority of crimes were committed by the support and second echelon soldiers.

sovietsniper
4th February 2006, 08:29
Originally posted by The [email protected] 3 2006, 06:49 PM
The extention of the rapes is debatable I guess. None the less they were unacceptable. I'm also aware that NKVD did shoot deserters and such, but again so did all armies to some extent.

Who raped and shot most is a little irrelevant, when everybody did after all. One could claim that the USSR being socialists should have been above that kind of behavior, to which I'd agree of course. And nothing can justify violation of human rights! :angry:

But desperate methods such as the shootings of deserters were kind of understandable even if not acceptable considering the desperate situation when the Nazis (not the Salvation Army) had occupied half of european Russia and were at the gates of Leningrad and Moscow.

What do you mean by the winter war? that of Finland?
I agree with most of what your saying However there were sevral levels of nastyness. The japanese, waffen-ss and second line soviet troops were the worst, closy followed by americans towards blacks and british towards africans/aisans(insert relevent colonial people here)

Yes i mean with finland

Iv fond something of interest http://www.stalingrad-info.com/

Body Count
5th February 2006, 17:50
Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 06:23 PM
Yes this sure was a great historic battle which luckily went in our way. Although im not all for some of the tactics Stalin used. He forbidded Civillians to evacuate the city, leaving woman and children to build trenchworks and protective fortifications. Although i say i do not agree with this tactic, it was probably a nessesarry step to take to fight off the Axis forces.
Heaven forbid that these weak, stupid, useless creatures of the female sex actually do anything but cook and clean........ :rolleyes:

Hell yes they should have gotten involed! At a time when they couldn't even vote elseware, the soviet union had them protecting the country!

As far as leaving people in the cities....this was done so that the soldiers would "have something to fight for".....basically, soldiers fought harder to protect people, as opposed to just empty buildings and such.

leftist resistance
6th February 2006, 09:36
Where did you get this claim? The mass rapes and violence involved in the Red Army’s conquest of Prussia and Germany are very well documented

I heard it from someone in school that they did the raping.but am skeptical of the claim since it seems very impossible to me that a whole army would go rape women.especially since the ussr was socialist and it was a time of modernisation.
anyway,do you have any sources of the documentary?

Eoin Dubh
6th February 2006, 12:12
Originally posted by The [email protected] 3 2006, 05:19 PM

There is even a big lie that soviet troops raped women in places they occupy

Mass-rapes though I find hard to believe were committed.

This said, I'm convinced that the political comissars and higher ranking officers of the Red Army did what was in their power to prevent this.

The german population feared the approaching Red Army to the extent that they committed suicide in large numbers, but the retaliation was never as extensive as they had feared.
Red Army troops raped even Russian women as they freed them from camps


THE Red Army's orgy of rape in the dying days of Nazi Germany was conducted on a much greater scale than previously suspected, according to a new book by the military historian Anthony Beevor.


Beevor, the author of the best-selling Stalingrad, says advancing Soviet troops raped large numbers of Russian and Polish women held in concentration camps, as well as millions of Germans.

Against this horrific background, Stalin and his commanders condoned or even justified rape, not only against Germans but also their allies in Hungary, Romania and Croatia. When the Yugoslav Communist Milovan Djilas protested to Stalin, the dictator exploded: "Can't he understand it if a soldier who has crossed thousands of kilometres through blood and fire and death has fun with a woman or takes some trifle?"

And when German Communists warned him that the rapes were turning the population against them, Stalin fumed: "I will not allow anyone to drag the reputation of the Red Army in the mud."

The rapes had begun as soon as the Red Army entered East Prussia and Silesia in 1944. In many towns and villages every female, aged from 10 to 80, was raped. Alexander Solzhenitsyn, the Nobel laureate who was then a young officer, described the horror in his narrative poem Prussian Nights: "The little daughter's on the mattress,/Dead. How many have been on it/A platoon, a company perhaps?"

But Solzhenitsyn was rare: most of his comrades regarded rape as legitimate. As the offensive struck deep into Germany, the orders of Marshal Zhukov, their commander, stated: "Woe to the land of the murderers. We will get a terrible revenge for everything."

Soviet soldiers saw rape, often carried out in front of a woman's husband and family, as an appropriate way of humiliating the Germans, who had treated Slavs as an inferior race with whom sexual relations were discouraged. Russia's patriarchal society and the habit of binge-drinking were also factors, but more important was resentment at the discovery of Germany's comparative wealth.

The rape of Germany left a bitter legacy. It contributed to the unpopularity of the East German communist regime and its consequent reliance on the Stasi secret police. The victims themselves were permanently traumatised: women of the wartime generation still refer to the Red Army war memorial in Berlin as "the Tomb of the Unknown Rapist".

Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...24/ixworld.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/01/24/wbeev24.xml&sSheet=/news/2002/01/24/ixworld.html)
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Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, then a Soviet captain, wrote, "All of us knew very well that if the girls were German they could be raped and then shot.

Nearly all of the females, including eight to twelve year olds, as well as eighty year olds, were raped (often gang-raped), and then usually shot.
As the Red Army swept to the Oder, its armies proceeded to rape and loot on a grand scale (25). In many areas, the first Soviet wave came from the Tank Armies. Usually, Soviet tankists did not have a lot of time to stop and rape, but due to their carrying capacity, they were some of the most effective looters of the war, packing their tanks with the loot (26). The Soviet tankists still managed to get in their fair share of revenge, however, by firing on refugee trains.....

The second wave was made up of Soviet riflemen, who beared the brunt of the Soviet war effort. Due to their trauma, the riflemen often drank any possible alcoholic liquid nearby (28), many taking it too far. In their drunken rage, the riflemen would set of for women. All types of women were raped. German nuns, young children (who often were not aware what was happening to them), old grandmothers, pregnant women (29), and nurses (30). Many times, these acts took place in front of the eye's of their family, in some cases, children had to hold the flashlight while their mothers were raped. In one case, after an elderly woman died due to the endless rapes, her body was still repeatedly violated (31). Men, such as brothers or fathers, who defended the women from such horror were often shot (32).


In other cases, whole groups of women were brought into Red Army barracks and were raped, often gang-raped, for days (33). Even local Poles (34), and Soviet women, recently liberated from Nazi camps, were raped (35). Nearly one and a half million Germans were raped in the areas of East Prussia, Pomerania and Silesia (36). In Berlin, up to one hundred and thirty thousand were raped, with several thousand committing suicide soon after (37). Former Allied prisoners of war witnessed these actions as well (38).

Source: http://www.historic-battles.com/Articles/C.../Encounters.htm (http://www.historic-battles.com/Articles/Competition2004/Encounters.htm)
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War is Hell.

Sentinel
6th February 2006, 15:46
Yes, war is hell! :(

Still, even though the atrocities committed by the the Red Army no doubt were horrific, remember to keep a skeptic mind when you listen to the nobel prize winner Solzhenitsyn.

He was opposed to the system in his country and was finally banished from the USSR to the west and has ever since been writing propaganda books and trying to make USSR and socialism in the eastern bloc look bad.

Eoin Dubh
7th February 2006, 00:06
After witnessing Soviet indifference to such horror perpetrated upon non combatants, and after getting thrown in the slammer for a decade due to merely criticizing Stalin in a private letter, I can't really blame him for his attitude as it was based on his life experience.

And it was not just Solzhenitsyn, a very decent true Communist idealist comrade, Lev Kopelev, spoke up about the war crimes in Germany and was severely punished for it.

----"When Great Patriotic War broke out in June 1941, he volunteered for the Red Army and used his knowledge of German to serve as a propaganda officer and an interpreter. When he entered East Prussia with the Red Army, he sharply criticized the atrocities against German civilian population and was arrested in 1945 and sentenced to a ten-year term in the Gulag for fostering bourgeois humanism and for "compassion towards the enemy". In the sharashka Mavrino he met Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn. Kopelev became a prototype for Rubin from The First Circle.

Released in 1954, in 1956 he was rehabilitated. Still an optimist and believer in the ideals of Communism, during the Khrushchev Thaw he restored his CPSU membership. In 1957-1969 he taught in the Moscow Institute of Polygraphy and Institute of History of Arts.

Since 1966 Kopelev actively participated in the human rights and dissident movement. In 1968 he was fired from his job, excluded from the CPSU and the Writers' Union for signing protest letters against persecution of dissidents, publicly supporting Andrei Sinyavsky and Yuli Daniel and actively denouncing the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia. He also protested Solzhenitsyn's expulsion from the Writers' Union and wrote in defense of dissenting General Pyotr Grigorenko, imprisoned at a psikhushka."

--- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lew_Kopelew

leftist resistance
8th February 2006, 10:43
:o

So it was true..damn.

anyway,thanks for the articles.im now convinced

Eoin Dubh
8th February 2006, 12:53
Josef Stalin was at the helm and most of us agree that he set the cause back quite considerably and the memory of him is probably the single greatest obstacle we face in the attempt to create a better world for working people.
It was called "the great patriotic war" in an appeal to nationalism and Russian memory of its past history, internationalism was scrapped, for the time being at least.
Anthony Beevor's book demonstrates the destruction of the humanity in the Soviet soldier which total war caused but it is very important to remember that not all soldiers of the red army succumbed to revenge on non combatant civilians.
Berlin was virtually a city without men, and the women of Berlin most likely suffered a worse fate than that of the German soldiers trapped in Stalingrad even though of the 90,000 who surrendered only 5,000 returned home alive after the war.

Another excellent book, which I have been able to find only one copy of, is Ernst Friedrichs "War Against War".
He was a pacifist anarchist who, during WW 1, took many amazing photos of what war can do to the men who fight it.
The book starts off tame , and by the end, leaves the reader with a full and nauseating sense of the horrors of war.

Herr Friedrich also had a museum wherein he displayed his photos, but once the Nazis came to power though, his museum was destroyed and the site became a hangout/pub for brownshirt thugs. :(

Nothing Human Is Alien
13th February 2006, 23:22
While I wont' deny that rapes took place, I wouldn't put too much faith in the bourgeois sources the ultra-leftist Eoin Dubh uses. It seems like this comrade has more criticisms for socialism than capitalism.

Eoin Dubh
13th February 2006, 23:39
Originally posted by Compań[email protected] 13 2006, 11:49 PM
While I wont' deny that rapes took place, I wouldn't put too much faith in the bourgeois sources the ultra-leftist Eoin Dubh uses. It seems like this comrade has more criticisms for socialism than capitalism.
Step back a bit , friend. <_<

If we cannot have an open, honest, discussion about where we have gone wrong in our history, then most certainly, the left will continue to chase its tail and be condemned to irrelevancy permanently.

Bourgeois sources? Such as true Communist comrade Lev Kopalev? Had he been inpower rather than Stalin, those atrocities Would not have occured to the extent that they did&#33;

I am an ultra leftist, am I?

Truth should be paramount, you puritan.

I want to see effective change in my lifetime. That starts with honesty.
I will criticize anything and anyone if it is against the interests of the working class, including you. :angry:

Nothing Human Is Alien
14th February 2006, 02:36
Let me know how that works out.

Eoin Dubh
14th February 2006, 06:08
Originally posted by Compań[email protected] 14 2006, 03:03 AM
Let me know how that works out.
Why should I bother?
You are obviously hostile.