Hamas and democracy

[jaster]

With the recent municipal elections in the palistinian occupied territories(i.e. the gaza and the west bank) and the election of the militant arm of the muslim brotherhood (hamas) somthing has come to my attention, and that is of the hole damn irony in the situation. For one, when presidant bush announced that the elections were a great step for democracy in the middle east, ye once agin he contradicts himself when after the results were tallied he declared that he "would not deal with terrorists" never mind that he deals with beirut which is somewhat controlled by hizb allah. There is also that fact that hamas as never stopped vowing to destroy israel. with this in mind, this could be an oppurtunity for hamas to lead its people by moderating its views. other then that hamas is a godsend to the palistinian people ( yes i know i'll catch fire for that), justr compare it with the corruption riddled fatah, just look at the record,Hamas has dome more aid and humanitarian work for the people of palistine than fatah has for the entire lifespan of the organization.
What i'm trying to say here is that if there are any members of hamas out there, please moderate your views, this is your chance to realy help your people, i implore you, i want peace as much as the next person, what the rest of the world is askingm do you?

[Comrade Yastrebkov]

What exactly do you mean by 'moderate your views'? Please specify. I presume you mean the fact that hamas does not recognize Israel's right to exist. In which case I also declare myself an extremist, because neither do I, as does much of the arab world.

[Soheran]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 31 2006, 08:40 PM
What exactly do you mean by 'moderate your views'? Please specify. I presume you mean the fact that hamas does not recognize Israel's right to exist. In which case I also declare myself an extremist, because neither do I, as does much of the arab world.
No state has a right to exist.

Recognizing that Israel does exist, and is not going to go away, would be a decent start.

Renouncing terrorist attacks against innocent people would be an even better one.

[Comrade Yastrebkov]

I'm not justyfying attacks against civilians, I'm stating that Hamas's views are no more extreme thatn that of the IDF and they have no reason or obligation whatsoever to disarm.

[commiecrusader]

What difference does it make if Hamas recognises Israel's 'right to exist' or not? Suicide bombings etc would be occurring anyway. This problem is never going to go away while both societies cling to their archaic superstions and the notion of land ownership.

[JC1]

Hamas is a political movement foremerly funded by the Israeli state. It's purpose was to create tension's between Secular and Islamist forces in the territory's. Now that it has taken state power, Isreal has all the justification (In the eyes of the bourgoisie) to carry out a second dispersment of Palistine.

[deak]

Hamas is a political movement foremerly funded by the Israeli state.

i admit ignorance on this fact. any more information that you could supply on this would be awsome.

[travisdandy2000]

It is totaly false to blame the stuggle in occupied Palestine on outmoded Monotheism. One of the major Palestian resistance groups in the PFLP, it is complelty Marxist, and yet it sees no contridiction in supporting Hamas insofar as they resist "Isreal". If Isalm is useful combating imperialism then they are our allies for the time being. It is base stupidity to aid imperialism because one of our allies is not 100% correct, at this stage an enemy of my enemy is my freind regradless. That is how revolutions are won history proves this.

[WUOrevolt]

If I am not mistaken, there are traces of anti semitism and jihadism in Hamas's ideology, so while I support the palestinian cause, I cannot support a party like Hamas.

[ReD_ReBeL]

If I am not mistaken, there are traces of anti semitism and jihadism in Hamas's ideology, so while I support the palestinian cause, I cannot support a party like Hamas.

Spot on. This man speaks with maturity not people sucked into a corrupt group.
Why would some1 who doesn't follow Islam support Hamas? and because they fight for Independence isn't a good enough answer.
Stalin was a communist that doesnt mean i have to like or even admire him.
A group that uses suicide bombings is not worth supporting in my opinion. It is widely a a Islamic terrorist method, and frankly im not a Islamic so it doesnt appeal to me, i know these men and woman aren't going to be looked upon as heros by 'allah' .
I don't know how democratic they are, but they are puting an islamic rule to a further extent that fatah did which will just end up as a Tryant state, so frankly i wouldent say they are democratic, regardless if they participate in elections or not.

[Soheran]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 01:35 AM
If Isalm is useful combating imperialism then they are our allies for the time being. It is base stupidity to aid imperialism because one of our allies is not 100% correct, at this stage an enemy of my enemy is my freind regradless. That is how revolutions are won history proves this.
No, political Islamic fundamentalism is not our ally and will never be our ally. It is as much our enemy as imperialism is.

Just as it is not wise to support imperialist terrorism because it fights fundamentalist terrorism, it is not legitimate to support fundamentalist terrorism because it fights imperialist terrorism.

[travisdandy2000]

What is your problem! The people of Plaestine support Hamas, they support Jihad! That is their right. You cannot put your values on their struggle, or you are a counterrevolutionary. This IS the litmus test. You must support national liberation in any form, once it is acheived then you can critizce their programme. As far as anti-smeitism, give me a brake, the Arabs are more Semite then any European Jewish settler. By opposing jihadist you aid the imperialist.

[ReD_ReBeL]

By opposing jihadist you aid the imperialist.

what bullshit you speak. Jihadism is basically Islamic imperialism, fighting for a world under islamic rule. I support Palestine independence but not any Islamic fundamentalist movement. Yes it is the palestines people right to support Jihadism, so basically your saying it's the peoples in Capitalist countries like the US to continue supporting there exploitive governments, because they have the right to do so? fair enough but there is nothing progressive about your opproach. Sounds pretty conformist to me. so tell me what happens when Palestine gets stable and Hamas fully in power, they going to start executing gays like Iran because it's part of there Islamic law?

[WUOrevolt]

The Jihadists are forgetting the Chrisitian Palestinians and their struggles.

[Soheran]

What is your problem! The people of Plaestine support Hamas, they support Jihad! That is their right.

Perhaps they do, and yes, it is. They have the right to hold whatever opinions they see fit, however unwise and reactionary they may be.


You cannot put your values on their struggle, or you are a counterrevolutionary. This IS the litmus test. You must support national liberation in any form, once it is acheived then you can critizce their programme.

I support national liberation.

I oppose terrorism, homophobia, anti-Semitism, and misogynism. Thus I oppose Hamas.

Similarly, I support the right of Israeli citizens to defend themselves. I do not support occupation, brutality, and land theft. Thus I oppose the Israeli ruling class.


As far as anti-smeitism, give me a brake, the Arabs are more Semite then any European Jewish settler.

Anti-Semitism was coined specifically to refer to anti-Jewish sentiment, and that is the common usage.


By opposing jihadist you aid the imperialist.

I oppose both. I refuse to accept the false "you are with us or with the terrorists" dichotomy. Imperialist terrorism and fundamentalist terrorism have both slaughtered tens of thousands of innocent people, and both are reactionary to the core. As a Socialist and someone who attempts to be a decent human being, I cannot support either.

[travisdandy2000]

You are all basing your arguments on the bizzare concept that "Isreal" has a right to exsist. How so? Isreal is a colonial project consisting of Europeans who happen to share a common faith, showing up in a land that has been occupied for thousands of years by native Palestianians and using force to run them out!
Let's say when the Europeans had arrived in the new world chased some of the natives off and established colonies, would/were those natives wrong in using all methods at their disposal to take back their land? Oh but wait, the natives may have used the ghost dance and other superstitous rituals to rouse them to resistance, so they deserve no support right? We in the west have acsess to all kinds of scientific knowledge we know superstion when we see it , so if the villager in Palestine is aroused to resistance by anything other then dialectal materialism then we must oppose him, even as he strikes fear into the hearts of our enemies while we sit impotent. Read some Palestinian Marxist! The PFLP was inspired and guided by Che! Read about Leila Khaled PLEASE! READ HER BOOK:' MY PEOPLE SHALL LIVE. '

[Soheran]

You are all basing your arguments on the bizzare concept that "Isreal" has a right to exsist.

No state has a right to exist. All states are illegitimate.


Isreal is a colonial project consisting of Europeans who happen to share a common faith, showing up in a land that has been occupied for thousands of years by native Palestianians and using force to run them out!

Not the complete story, but fine, let's take that as true.


Let's say when the Europeans had arrived in the new world chased some of the natives off and established colonies, would/were those natives wrong in using all methods at their disposal to take back their land?

Yes. It was wrong for the Native Americans to kill innocent people in their reprisals against those who had invaded their land.


Oh but wait, the natives may have used the ghost dance and other superstitous rituals to rouse them to resistance, so they deserve no support right?

I have no great problem with Palestinians believing in Islam, I have a problem with Palestinians - or anyone - adopting religious fundamentalism. It is reactionary, it impedes development, it resists serious social reform, it tends to lead to inequalities in wealth and power, it legitimizes murder, and it is extremely oppressive.


We in the west have acsess to all kinds of scientific knowledge we know superstion when we see it

As I said, the problem is not superstition, it is fundamentalist reaction.


so if the villager in Palestine is aroused to resistance by anything other then dialectal materialism then we must oppose him,

That's not what I said. I don't accept dialectical materialism, for what it is worth. Religion has inspired plenty of liberation movements, and in many of such cases (Liberation Theology in Latin America, for instance) it should have been supported. I have a problem when it is used as an excuse to oppress and kill other people, and that is how Hamas is using it.


even as he strikes fear into the hearts of our enemies while we sit impotent.

Hamas is an enemy of the Left, too. Do you think a Hamas-ruled Palestinian state will be some sort of worker's paradise?

[bcbm]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 08:09 PM
If I am not mistaken, there are traces of anti semitism and jihadism in Hamas's ideology, so while I support the palestinian cause, I cannot support a party like Hamas.
Traces would be an understatement. They cite the Learned Protocols of the Elders of Zion in their charater, and believe that all of Palestine is Muslim land where no non-Muslims, particularly jews, should live.


The people of Plaestine support Hamas, they support Jihad!

No. The latest polls indicate that most Palestinians want a negotiated settlement with Israel, not a holy war. This is true even among Hamas supporters. Hamas recieves support because it is viewed as the most viable alternative to the corrupt Fatah and it provides many basic social services.


Yes. It was wrong for the Native Americans to kill innocent people in their reprisals against those who had invaded their land.

Um, wouldn't all white people be invaders? Although, generally speaking, most whites who got it had earned it. Groups like the Quakers and others who attempted to coexist (ie, not exploit) the natives didn't have a problem.

[Intifada]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 04:19 AM
The Jihadists are forgetting the Chrisitian Palestinians and their struggles.
Actually, due to the anger many Muslims feel towards the Europeans at the moment, as a result of the publications of the cartoons of Muhammad, Hamas has provided local Palestinian Churches with protection from people who may wish to "punish" Christians.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by Intifada+Feb 4 2006, 06:54 AM--> (Intifada @ Feb 4 2006, 06:54 AM)
[email protected] 4 2006, 04:19 AM
The Jihadists are forgetting the Chrisitian Palestinians and their struggles.
Actually, due to the anger many Muslims feel towards the Europeans at the moment, as a result of the publications of the cartoons of Muhammad, Hamas has provided local Palestinian Churches with protection from people who may wish to "punish" Christians. [/b]
Can you offer a cite on that? Could be useful... :)

[FULL METAL JACKET]

Originally posted by black banner black gun+Feb 4 2006, 06:57 PM--> (black banner black gun @ Feb 4 2006, 06:57 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 06:54 AM

[email protected] 4 2006, 04:19 AM
The Jihadists are forgetting the Chrisitian Palestinians and their struggles.
Actually, due to the anger many Muslims feel towards the Europeans at the moment, as a result of the publications of the cartoons of Muhammad, Hamas has provided local Palestinian Churches with protection from people who may wish to "punish" Christians.
Can you offer a cite on that? Could be useful... :) [/b]
Yeah am interested in the source as well.

[Intifada]

Here (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/678045.html) is a link to the fact that Hamas has promised to protect Christians in Gaza.

I first heard about this on ITV News.

[FULL METAL JACKET]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2006, 01:02 PM
Here (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/678045.html) is a link to the fact that Hamas has promised to protect Christians in Gaza.

I first heard about this on ITV News.
Thanks for the link. You see, American media will never report that. Its always they are all evil and corrupt blah blah blah

[WUOrevolt]

Originally posted by Intifada+Feb 4 2006, 05:00 PM--> (Intifada @ Feb 4 2006, 05:00 PM)
[email protected] 4 2006, 04:19 AM
The Jihadists are forgetting the Chrisitian Palestinians and their struggles.
Actually, due to the anger many Muslims feel towards the Europeans at the moment, as a result of the publications of the cartoons of Muhammad, Hamas has provided local Palestinian Churches with protection from people who may wish to "punish" Christians. [/b]
What I meant by that is an Islamist group like Hamas is more concerned with waging a Muslim holy war than dealing with the Palestinian Christians and their struggles from the occupation.

[Conghaileach]

I agree with a lot of what's being said in this article below...


A question of respect
By Conor Kennedy

Palestinian elections - Hamas victory

The people of the Occupied Palestinian Territories have endorsed a new political reality, one in which a radically changed Legislative Council in which Hamas, standing on the platform of Change and Reform have taken 75 of the 126 seats, reducing Fatah's share to 45. Despite the continued hardship of the occupation a 78% Palestinian turnout has spoken in what can only be praised as authentically democratic elections. As such not only must the manner in which they were held be respected but so too its outcome.

And yet there seems little attempt to grant such respect towards the incumbent government. The Israeli acting Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, following the revelation of the Hamas victory, has clearly stated that a government led by Hamas, or a government that Hams is a part of cannot be a partner for peace and is to be considered an authority that supports terrorism. The US response echoed Israel's predictably negative line calling on Hamas to recognise Israel and lay down its arms. The EU, despite its foreign policy chief, Javier Solana's, previous threats of withholding the $600 (£341m) should Hamas take power, have now adopted a more pragmatic 'wait and see' approach in its relations to the Hamas government.

Scant regard, however, has been paid in the media to Hamas' position concerning negotiations with Israel. Hamas's election manifesto made no mention of 'destroying Israel'. Furthermore, Hamas has offered a long-term ceasefire, perhaps lasting a generation, in return for Israeli withdrawal to the June 1967 borders — a de facto recognition of Israel's existence. Such offers are only strengthened by an eleven-month unilateral ceasefire maintained by the movement. Its language too has shifted in tone and talk of destroying Israel has consciously moved to talk of armed resistance against Israel. Aziz Dweik, a prominent Hamas candidate in the southern West Bank town of Hebron stated to Al Jazeera that 'Eventually we will have to distinguish between the ideological and the political'. Rather than oppose the principle of future negotiations, it disputes the basis of those held in the past.

Hamas's victory did not come around primarily as a product of its opposition to Israeli policy in the Occupied Territories. Running on the platform of Change and Reform Hamas presented a credible alternative, 'honest, tried and untainted by corruption', to the outgoing Fatah legislature divided internally and plagued by allegations of corrupt and malfunctioning governance. Fatah's electoral strategy steered clear of the charges against it focusing upon its history of resistance yet failed to convince an electorate who felt few tangible or economic achievements. Israel's cynical manipulation of the peace process twisted Oslo's reconciliatory spirit into new and more sophisticated means of maintaining an increasingly brutal occupation.

For Hamas now comes the real test. The new government of the Palestinians can not rely solely on its image as a strong alternative to a corrupt, weak and fragmented Palestinian Authority. It must now address itself to the pressing issues of delivering social and economic change and addressing Israel's continuing occupation. Hamas has been preparing itself to govern and can draw upon the valuable experience of its welfare and education networks and technocrat base. It has solid organisational and ideological behavioural codes. For their part the EU and the wider international community may consolidate democracy but only through a continuation of funding and support for the position of negotiation about a future, viable Palestinian state, and respect for what was expressed freely at the polls.

(Source (http://www.anphoblacht.com/news/detail/12861))

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by dandyboy+--> (dandyboy)One of the major Palestian resistance groups in the PFLP, it is complelty Marxist, and yet it sees no contridiction in supporting Hamas insofar as they resist "Isreal".[/b]

And in the event the Palestinian movement "wins" it will be "off with their heads"!.



It is base stupidity to aid imperialism because one of our allies is not 100% correct, at this stage an enemy of my enemy is my freind regradless.

Considering the historical track record that Islamic movements have, "imperialism" is one of their specialties.

Do you have something against book lernin' dandyboy?

The Islamic Ottoman empire was the longest lasting empire in history.

Who's to say they don't simply want to regain the former power Islamic shit-heads had under the old empire?

After all, the empire was not simply "given" away, after a few thousand infadel heads being lopped off, it was finally wrenched away.


That is how revolutions are won history proves this.

This statement is historically false.

On the contrary, the only "successful" leftist revolution was done so with the aid of modern imperialism. Without it the Bolsheviks would have simply vanished back into the obscurity rags, rhetoric and vodka.

Shall we talk about the yanqui revolution and and its association with imperialism now?


You cannot put your values on their struggle, or you are a counterrevolutionary

With so many dogmatic assertations, all we need to get you is a silly suit and a pompadour.

Perhaps then you can have what you "think" you deserve. As long as you don't mind being the laughing stock of the entire civilised world that is. :lol:


You are all basing your arguments on the bizzare concept that "Isreal" has a right to exsist.

Not at all.

As a matter of fact, most of us here that have concluded you are indeed a whacko don't support either of these fundamentalist factions.

And that really bothers you!


Originally posted by [email protected]
Hamas has provided local Palestinian Churches with protection from people who may wish to "punish" Christians.


Damn!

Just when we though some of those cukoo Christians were going to reap what they sowed.

Fucking Islamic clerics can't do anything right.


WUOrevolt
What I meant by that is an Islamist group like Hamas is more concerned with waging a Muslim holy war than dealing with the Palestinian Christians and their struggles from the occupation

Now that the Hamas brass are officially a parliamantary body, it's far more likely that they are most concerned with how to keep their fat asses in thier parliamentry seats! After all, that's one hell of a "pay day" for them.

In addition, those Christian votes could come in handy next election; shit they may even keep them from having to rig the fucker!

[travisdandy2000]

Civilised world? I.e. Imperialist?

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2006, 08:49 PM
Civilised world? I.e. Imperialist?
Why bother asking rhetorical questions?

Do you enjoy hearing yourself think? Did you assume your two word post was somehow "witty" and "abstract"?

I'm glad you impressed yourself; someone has to at least. :lol:

Perhaps instead you can respond to any the many corrections I have made to your historically ignorant posts, both in this thread and others.

Better yet, don't bother son.

[travisdandy2000]

Ah, sorry professor, I sit at you feet. So something about the Ottaman empire?

[Intifada]

Damn!

Just when we though some of those cukoo Christians were going to reap what they sowed.

Fucking Islamic clerics can't do anything right.


Attacking Christians would be stupid.

Christianity is an idea, it cannot be destroyed by burning churches.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 10:31 AM
Christianity is an idea, it cannot be destroyed by burning churches.
Says who? You?

History shows us that a religious revolt or massacre will begin in the same ways they always have: the destruction of property.

I'll stick with history, thanks.

[jaster]

in response to [QUOTE]QUOTE (dandyboy)
One of the major Palestian resistance groups in the PFLP, it is complelty Marxist, and yet it sees no contridiction in supporting Hamas insofar as they resist "Isreal".

the PFLP (popular front for the liberation of palistine) is no longer a najor player in the struggle, the fell with the farce, the oslo accords, but i digress. it still exists albeit in a smaller form. It is no longer a marxist-leninist group, this was true during the heyday of russian support for the arabs against israel, but when the soviet union collapsed, the name fell out of fashion and they are no longer regarded as marxist leninist.

[Intifada]

Originally posted by Comrade RAF+Feb 7 2006, 05:46 PM--> (Comrade RAF @ Feb 7 2006, 05:46 PM)
[email protected] 7 2006, 10:31 AM
Christianity is an idea, it cannot be destroyed by burning churches.
Says who? You?

History shows us that a religious revolt or massacre will begin in the same ways they always have: the destruction of property.

I'll stick with history, thanks. [/b]
Has Christianity been destroyed by violence?

I don't believe that religion can be wiped out through violence.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by Intifada+Feb 7 2006, 04:08 PM--> (Intifada @ Feb 7 2006, 04:08 PM) Has Christianity been destroyed by violence?

I don't believe that religion can be wiped out through violence. [/b]
Good grief.


Your statement is absolutely meaningless to the discussion. I'll make it easy on you and just re-post:


RAF
History shows us that a religious revolt or massacre will begin in the same ways they always have: the destruction of property.

Read it as many times as it takes to sink in.

[Intifada]

I believe that an idea cannot be destroyed by violence only.

That is my point.

History may show us that violence is the means used to try and destroy religion, but religion exists as it is an idea, and ideas cannot be destroyed by violence alone.

[Glasgow]

Dont know is this should be a new post , any way. Hamas aparently are trying to clean up the radio waves as in banning western and most arabic music. Gazza Radio are refusing to pull the plug and are being hit with death threats not directly from hamas but there supporters. It is a nonsecular radio station and I even saw a picture of Che on there wall. I think our thoughts should be with them. I do not have a link but there was a report on More4 News last night any one with some information or a link would be greatly apreciated.