This is Zionism [Archive]

Vinny Rafarino

30th January 2006, 23:06

4 Israeli Children, Mother Murdered by Palestinian Terrorists (http://www.israelnewsagency.com/israelpalestineterrorismchildren12913.html)

Other "tidbits":

Mar 26, 2001 - Shalhevet Pass, age 10 months, was killed by sniper fire at the entrance to the Avraham Avinu neighborhood in Hebron.

Mar 28, 2001 - Eliran Rosenberg-Zayat, 15, of Givat Shmuel and Naftali Lanzkorn, 13, of Petah Tikva were killed in a suicide bombing at the Mifgash Hashalom ("peace stop") gas station several hundred meters from an IDF roadblock near the entrance to Kalkilya, east of Kfar Saba. Four people were injured. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Aug 9, 2001 - Giora Balash, 60, of Brazil; Zvika Golombek, 26, of Carmiel; Shoshana Yehudit Greenbaum, 31, of the U.S.; Tehila Maoz, 18, of Jerusalem; Frieda Mendelsohn, 62, of Jerusalem; Michal Raziel, 16, of Jerusalem; Malka Roth, 15, of Jerusalem; Mordechai Schijveschuurder, 43, of Neria; Tzira Schijveschuurder, 41, of Neria; Ra'aya Schijveschuurder, 14, of Neria; Avraham Yitzhak Schijveschuurder, 4, of Neria; Hemda Schijveschuurder, 2, of Neria; Lily Shimashvili, 33, of Jerusalem; Tamara Shimashvili, 8, of Jerusalem; and Yocheved Shoshan, 10, of Jerusalem were killed and about 130 injured in a suicide bombing at the Sbarro pizzeria on the corner of King George Street and Jaffa Road in the center of Jerusalem. Hamas and the Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Free Palestine?

Fuck Palestine.

Originally posted by Tupac-Amaru
You don't think the Jews deserve a country of their own?.... After all the shit they've been through??

Why does any religious organisation "deserve a country of their own"?

In addition, throughout history, almost every religious group has been victimised; the "shit" the those of the Jewish faith have gone through is nothing unusual at all.

Regional religious and moral superiority is a very dangerous and bloody game.

So in conclusion, fuck them both.

enigma2517

30th January 2006, 23:19

Good one.

bed_of_nails

30th January 2006, 23:57

Originally posted by Intifada+Jan 30 2006, 10:13 AM--> (Intifada @ Jan 30 2006, 10:13 AM)
[email protected] 30 2006, 04:58 PM
Intifada, this is not one of my concerns (Israel v. Palestine) but as soon as I read it I got the sarcasm. It wasn't wasted.
I'm sure most people understood my point. [/b]
I apologize, but I have a hard time detecting sarcasm over the internet on occasion.

I agree with RAF's view on this. Any outcome in the Israel and Palestine situation is just going to create even more hostility.

Any ideas on a means to a stable end?

Free Palestine

31st January 2006, 01:01

I think it's worth noting "Comrade" RAF's cherry-picked article is 5 years old.

bed_of_nails

31st January 2006, 01:19

Originally posted by Free [email protected] 30 2006, 06:20 PM
I think it's worth noting "Comrade" RAF's cherry-picked article is 5 years old.
Do you think that actually matters? This conflict has been going on for much longer than a year or two.

Deaths are deaths, and numbers are numbers. You can say his article is too old to count, but until you provide a worthy article actually saying that it doesnt matter. You have no evidence that shows Palistinians are suddenly being horribly abused without returning the shit-slinging.

The situation is fucked. There is no "right way" to handle the conflict.

Can we have an actual discussion on this now instead of just a bunch of screaming "You are a Zionist!" and the reply of "No I'm not"?

BuyOurEverything

31st January 2006, 01:39

You forgot to mention the methods that the Zionists, Herzl included, proposed in order to achieve the goal of an exclusively Jewish state.

After all, that was what makes Noah "sick".

When someone states that they are disgusted by Zionism, it means they are disgusted not simply by what the Zionist project aimed to achieve, but by the methods that they proposed to use in their attempt to achieve their goal, as well as their illustrious history of atrocities against innocent people.

I know we've been through this before, but I'll say it again. Your basic assumption is wrong. Zionism is no more a homogenous belief than 'leftism'. Different zionists believe in different methods. To make the generalization you are is the equivelant of saying that socialism is a disgusting ideology because of the methods Pol Pot used in Cambodia.

It is true that the currently dominant strain of zionism in Israel is reactionary, expansionist, and racist. However, this has not always been the case, nor, I believe, will it always be the case. Nor is it the only strain of zionist thought. I have personally met with many zionists who abhore the treatment of Palestinians and fully support a Palestinian state. In fact, as I have said before on numerous occasions, I am a zionist.

And to Zingu:

Reactionary right wing religious fringe groups are irrelevant, please stop posting that crap.

boosh logic:

Also from that site:

Valentine Day, Birthdays, and Other Daze By Khalid Baig
What commercial and cultural propaganda presents as beautiful is rooted in ugly paganism but most blind followers do not know.

Islam is the Solution By Khalid Baig

Halloween: Innocent Fun or Mortal Danger? By M. Murad

And oh so much more! I especially like the one about the Islamic dress code! Please, post more religious bullshit, it totally strengthens your argument!

Free Palestine

31st January 2006, 02:26

Do you think that actually matters?

Sure do. It's worth noting at the very least.

Deaths are deaths, and numbers are numbers.

Lets talk numbers.

Children killed:

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/children.gif

118 Israeli children (http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/children.html#source) have been killed by Palestinians and 680 Palestinian (http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/children.html#source) children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.
For every 1 Israeli child that has died, 5.76 Palestinian children died.
1:5.76

Children Killed Reported, by NBC/ABC/CBS:

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/net-fig15.gifhttp://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/net-fig16.gif
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/net-fig17.gif

In 2004, ABC, CBS, and NBC news reporting on Palestinian children’s deaths followed virtually the same line as Israeli children’s deaths, in stark contradiction to the reality, in which Palestinian children were being killed at a rate 22 times greater than Israeli children.

Children Killed Reported, by NY Times:

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/nyt-fig10.gif

The New York Times reported the death rates of Israeli and Palestinian children almost identically despite the fact that almost five times more Palestinian children were actually being killed.

Children Killed Reported, by SF Chronicle:

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/chron-fig6.gif

The San Francisco Chronicle reported 150% of Israeli children’s deaths and only 5% of Palestinian children’s deaths in headlines and/or lead paragraphs.

You can say his article is too old to count, but until you provide a worthy article actually saying that it doesnt matter. You have no evidence that shows Palistinians are suddenly being horribly abused without returning the shit-slinging.

What the fuck are you talking about? All I said was his cherry-picked article was 5 years old.

Free Palestine

31st January 2006, 02:32

Originally posted by BuyOurEverything+--> (BuyOurEverything)boosh logic: Also from that site: ... And oh so much more! I especially like the one about the Islamic dress code! Please, post more religious bullshit, it totally strengthens your argument![/b]

If you can't offer a convincing counter-argument the next best thing to do is to discredit the source or shoot the messenger boy, eh?

Originally posted by BuyOurEverything+--> (BuyOurEverything)I know we've been through this before, but I'll say it again. Your basic assumption is wrong. Zionism is no more a homogenous belief than 'leftism'. Different zionists believe in different methods. To make the generalization you are is the equivelant of saying that socialism is a disgusting ideology because of the methods Pol Pot used in Cambodia.

It is true that the currently dominant strain of zionism in Israel is reactionary, expansionist, and racist. However, this has not always been the case, nor, I believe, will it always be the case. Nor is it the only strain of zionist thought. I have personally met with many zionists who abhore the treatment of Palestinians and fully support a Palestinian state. In fact, as I have said before on numerous occasions, I am a zionist.[/b]

If you want to discuss the ideology of Zionism, its origins and its purpose, I can certainly go there. As it is clear you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, I wouldn't oppose it either.

The bulk of the evidence does not support your belief. The bulk of the evidence shows strongly that the departure by one means or another (read: ethnic cleansing) of the non-Jewish natives of Palestine was considered by most mainstream Zionist political leaders to be a necessary part of the creation of a viable Jewish state.

All one has to do is to read the statements of the Zionist pioneers about Palestine to know this -- the Zionist desire for the alienation and eventual expulsion of the original inhabitants residing in the land designed for a "Jewish state" is no secret.

Earlier in 1895, Theodor Herzl, 'Father of Zionism,' and founder of the World Zionist Organization, wrote in his Diary that:

Originally posted by Theodor Herzl
"We must expropriate gently the private property on the state assigned to us. We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it employment in our country. The property owners will come over to our side. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discretely and circumspectly. Let the owners of the immoveable property believe that they are cheating us, selling us things for more than they are worth. But we are not going to sell them anything back."

Source: America and The Founding Of Israel (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0964515709/qid=1109546817/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-0668717-0241605?v=glance&s=books&n=507846), p. 49

Originally posted by Theodore Herzl
"We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country .... expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."

Source: Rafael Patai, Ed. The Complete Diaries of Theodore Herzl, Vol I

Originally posted by Theodore [email protected] 19th century advocate of Political Zionism
"We can be the vanguard of culture against barbarism."

Source: Tom Segev, "One Palestine Complete," p. 150

In October 1882, Validimir Dubnow, one of the earliest Zionist pioneers in Palestine, wrote to his brother articulating the ultimate goals of the Zionists movement:

Originally posted by Validimir Dubnow
"The ultimate goal...is, in time, to take over the Land of Israel and to restore to the Jews the political independence they have been deprived of for these two thousand years...The Jews will yet arise and, arms in hand (if need be), declare that they are the masters of their ancient homeland."

Source: Righteous Victims (http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story592.html), p. 49

In October 1882 Ben-Yehuda and Yehiel Michal Pines, few of the earliest Zionist pioneers in Palestine, wrote describing the indigenous Palestinians, that

Originally posted by Ben-Yehuda & Yehiel Michal Pines
"...There are now only five hundred [thousand] Arabs, who are not very strong, and from whom we shall easily take away the country if only we do it through stratagems [and] without drawing upon us their hostility before we become the strong and populous ones."

Source: Righteous Victims (http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story592.html), p. 49

In 1937, Zionist pioneer David Ben-Gurion eloquently articulated the Zionist goals regarding population transfer as the following:

David Ben-[email protected]
With compulsory transfer we [would] have a vast area [for settlement] ....I support compulsory transfer. I don't see anything immoral in it.
Source: Righteous Victims, p. 144 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679421203/qid%3D996713068/sr%3D2-1/ref%3Daps%5Fsr%5Fb%5F1%5F1/002-0668717-0241605)

In 1936 the Mapai leader David Hacohen explained how Zionist socialism should be for Jews not Arabs, he stated that:

I remember being one of the first of our comrades [of the Ahdut Ha'avodah
to got to London after the first World War. ... There I became a socialist. ... [In Palestine] I had to fight my friends on the issue of Jewish socialism, to defend the fact that I would not accept Arabs in my trade union, the Histadrut; to defend preaching to the housewives that they not buy at [Palestinian] Arab stores, to prevent [Palestinian] Arab workers from getting jobs there. .... To pour kerosene on the [Palestinian] Arab tomatoes; to attack Jewish housewives in the markets and smash the Arab eggs they had bought; to praise to the skies the Keneen Kayemet [Jewish National Fund] that sent Hankin to Beirut to buy land from absentee effendi [landlords] and to throw the fellahin [peasants] off the land-- to buy dozens of dunums-- from an Arab is permitted, but to sell, God forbid, one Jewish dunam to an Arab is prohibited.

Source: Expulsion Of The Palestinians (http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story600.html), p. 25

Like I said, if you don't believe me go read the work by Zionists yourself. Especially 'Explusion of the Palestinians (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0887282423/qid=1109547238/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-0668717-0241605),' which is based on Israel's own declassified government documents.

Zionism is racism. It is an ideology that professes the superiority of one ethnic group over another. If you fail to recognize this then you are willfully ignorant, the fact remains to anyone willing to see it that it is an ideology that allows its followers to think of ethnic cleansing as a moral right.

bed_of_nails

31st January 2006, 02:35

That is my response to your constant claims about Zionism, even in the left.

Can I see where you got those statistics? This could be like listening to FOX news for an accurate depiction of George Bush.

Phalanx

31st January 2006, 02:47

Zionism is racism. It is an ideology that professes the superiority of one ethnic group over another. If you fail to recognize this then you are willfully ignorant, the fact remains to anyone willing to see it that it is an ideology that allows its followers to think of ethnic cleansing as a moral right.

No, Zionism is the right of Jews to have a homeland. If you tried it in Nebraska, you'd probably have Nebraskans fighting Israel. If you tried to put it in Germany or Austria, there would be people fighting against it.

It doesn't mean that you can push people out of their homes, either.

After the Holocaust, it was the last straw in the eyes of many Jews. They saw that most countries that took them in eventually persecuted them and even murdered them. They needed a country of their own, it was a necessity. It was inevitable that some set their futures up in their ancestral homeland.

If you support Israel's right to exist, but oppose the illegal occupation, you're still a Zionist. That's the brand of Zionism I agree with. I don't advocate ethnic cleansing, and I believe in the Palestinians right to a nation. But Israel is there, and there I believe it should stay.

bed_of_nails

31st January 2006, 02:58

I understand why Palistine is pissed off. Marching into someone else's home and declaring it your own will result in hostilities. I also acknowledge the fact that the Jews need a homeland to ensure Hitler 2.0 doesnt try another holocaust.

Both sides have fucked up. Lets not go on and support one side for fucking up more, but lets try and make peace instead.

Lets just make it a timeshare.

Free Palestine

31st January 2006, 03:32

Originally posted by bedofnails+--> (bedofnails)Can I see where you got those statistics?[/b]

Perhaps you should go to the links provided in said post. The link directs you to a study, which cites the sources for the statistics. If you have a specific statistic you are still not sure about after doing that, you can consult me.

Chinghis Khan
No, Zionism is the right of Jews to have a homeland.

And yet, I have managed to prove my point that the bulk of evidence shows strongly that the departure by one means or another of the non-Jewish natives of Palestine was considered by most mainstream Zionist political leaders to be a necessary part of the creation of a viable Jewish state. And yet you have managed to prove nothing.

Phalanx

31st January 2006, 03:58

Okay, you've proved your point that some of the founding members of Zionism advocated ethnic cleansing. I haven't denied that there are many Zionists that are bad people. I just stated the reasons for Zionism and why I support it.

Vinny Rafarino

31st January 2006, 04:32

Originally posted by Free Palestine+Jan 30 2006, 06:20 PM--> (Free Palestine @ Jan 30 2006, 06:20 PM) I think it's worth noting "Comrade" RAF's cherry-picked article is 5 years old. [/b]
What the fuck is that supposed to mean?

Is there some sort of statute of limitation on to murder?

Or is it you're just pissed off because you can't cry about shit happening to palestinians when they commit the very same acts you're *****ing about.

In addition, it aint hard to "cherry pick" from thousands of articles.

Those fuckers just fall right out of the tree. :lol:

fuck palestine
118 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 680 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.
For every 1 Israeli child that has died, 5.76 Palestinian children died.
1:5.76

How can you possibly use the deaths of 798 children as an excuse to for your own misguided rhetoric?

Do youself a favour, go into your mommy and daddy's bedroom and ask one of them to give you a couple cracks because you really need to be staightened out.

Vaffanculo e vatenni, sacco di merda.

Zingu

31st January 2006, 05:18

And to Zingu:

Reactionary right wing religious fringe groups are irrelevant, please stop posting that crap.

Really? Have any more infromation about them?

Vinny Rafarino

31st January 2006, 05:34

Originally posted by bed_of_nails
I also acknowledge the fact that the Jews need a homeland to ensure Hitler 2.0 doesnt try another holocaust.

This is wrong in two ways: the first being that why exactly does a religious group "need a homeland". Do all Catholics deserve a homeland? What about those zany wiccans? Do they deserve a homeland too?

The second reason is that even if "Hitler 2.0" gave it the old college try, why the hell would you want all the people who practise judaism herded into one spot?

Free Palestine

31st January 2006, 05:44

Originally posted by Comrade RAF+--> (Comrade RAF)What the fuck is that supposed to mean?[/b]

It means exactly what it says, nitwit.

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected]
Is there some sort of statute of limitation on to murder?

No, but it's worth pointing out that your article is 5 years old.

Comrade RAF
How can you possibly use the deaths of 798 children as an excuse to for your own misguided rhetoric?

I didn't "use" anyone as anything. I merely cited the statistics to illustrate who really is the greater purveyor of violence in terms of children deaths. You can make your own conclusions after that.

Or is it you're just pissed off because you can't cry about shit happening to palestinians when they commit the very same acts you're *****ing about.

Who's killing children? You are laying the blame on the wrong people. The millions of Palestinians who are forced into miserable enclaves where they are denied adequate water to develop their societies have nothing to do with the terrorism you speak of.

BuyOurEverything

31st January 2006, 07:06

Really? Have any more infromation about them?

They're either these guys or something like them (http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/)

They're ultra-orthadox Jews who believe that the Jews aren't supposed to go to Israel until the Messiah comes and leads them. It's a theological argument, nothing more. And they're crazy.

TovaryshIvan

31st January 2006, 08:05

All the Arab countries have failed trying to oust Israel from the region.
After all Israel has been through, I'm pretty sure they've proven themselves worthy of a territory.

Tupac-Amaru

31st January 2006, 12:58

Originally posted by Comrade RAF+Jan 31 2006, 05:53 AM--> (Comrade RAF @ Jan 31 2006, 05:53 AM)
bed_of_nails
I also acknowledge the fact that the Jews need a homeland to ensure Hitler 2.0 doesnt try another holocaust.

why exactly does a religious group "need a homeland". Do all Catholics deserve a homeland? What about those zany wiccans? Do they deserve a homeland too?

[/b]
The Jews are more than just a religious group! They are an ancient civilization which used to live in the area where Israel is today. Most Jews also consider they are a race.

After the diaspora, the Jews suffered for centuries in Christian europe, and in fact almost got wiped out durring WWII (as we all know). In oder to ensure their security, they created Israel in their historical homeland...as TovaryshIvan, they've prooven themselves worthy of a territory.

Atlas Swallowed

31st January 2006, 13:36

Please. the Palestians are descendents of the Caananites talk about history repeating itself. Unless you believe in the Jewish storm god and they are his chosen people. It is amazing how 3 of the worlds major religions come from one mans personal god. Way to go Abraham.

I am part Delaware Indian I think I might go to New Jersey bulldoze peoples houses and shoot thier children, deny them of water. The great spirit said its mine all mine :blink:

boosh logic

31st January 2006, 14:29

This thread seems to have just gone down the road of picking on everyones argument. For example, my link to a website on a Zionism article explaining what it is and its goals. Someone went on it and looked around the site, and found some shit about Islam, which means that I was spreading religeous propaganda. If you search on any site (even this one) you will find things that you agree with and things that you don't agree with. It is irrelevant to make a claim like that, just as people are focusing on Free Palestine's personal beliefs and others instead of the topic in hand.

Personally, I think Jews deserve a break. I am mainly against religion, but religeon is also a part of a culture. It is possible to be of that religeon's culture, e.g. Jewish, without following any of the rules. If you are born into that culture, you generally will live by it, as people rarely move away from their family/friend base. Jews have historically been one of the most persecuted groups, which I think should stop. It has been made clear in countless examples that Jews get rejected from other societies, so a homeland for Jews would be a good idea. However, I am anything but a Zionist, as I reject all racism and 'cleansing' of ethnic groups. It is clear to everyone that Israel is fucked, as both sides commit horrific activites regardless of any consequences they might have. Shoe on the other foot, it would be exactly the same. Peace is the only way, as anger breeds anger, but neither side wants to give up any of the 'Holy Land' that is really just the victim of countless crusades and violence in the name of god.

Whichever side you take, Israeli or Palestinian, there is no way out. Zionism sucks, yeah, but the only way peace will come about is if the world refuses to take sides and treats them like the quabbling siblings they are.

Intifada

31st January 2006, 16:08

Or is it you're just pissed off because you can't cry about shit happening to palestinians when they commit the very same acts you're *****ing about.

Is it really surprising that a some Palestinians resort to terrorism?

The fact of the matter is that Israeli aggression breeds Palestinian terror.

That is a fact.

Why don't you include the fact that the daily non-violent Palestinian resistance to the illegal occupation is met often by Israeli violence?

The terrorist acts committed by the Palestinians will end, I am sure, when Israel stops its illegal and inhuman occupation, as the Palestinian people will then have their freedom.

Every person on this planet has that right to freedom.

That is why I support the Palestinian struggle against the illegal occupation.

clandestino

31st January 2006, 16:53

Hey go easy on Jews.... Marx was one... I think its horrible a 9 year old girl being killed by soldiers. And there is no excuse for that. However, she would proably blow herself up in 4 years and take 20 peole with her jews and arabs.. The question regarding homelands is also very complex. I'm not shure if you know about British and French mandates in the region.... But the sights pico agreenment gives right for both Jews and arabs to live in the transjordan.. but guess what... I don't think there are many jews east of Jordan river.. Where to send the jews? Saudi Arabia dosen't allow jews inside... thats a lil too much... In a historical context i think after killing 6 million jews, i think they deserve a place to chill out.maybe zionism is not so evil as it sounds..

Free Palestine

31st January 2006, 17:39

Originally posted by dipshit+--> (dipshit)In a historical context i think after killing 6 million jews, i think they deserve a place to chill out.[/b]

The fact that Jews have been killed, dispossessed and stripped of their dignity and human rights in the past is not a license for Israel to do so to the Palestinians in the present.

same idiot
However, she would proably blow herself up in 4 years and take 20 peole with her jews and arabs..

Uh-huh. Looks like a future "suicide bomber" to me. :rolleyes:

http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/7696/aaaa5bu.jpg

clandestino

31st January 2006, 17:46

Does this 12 year old look like a bomber? well a picture is worth a thouand words hum? Hes not the only one..
http://www.crimelibrary.com/terrorists_spi...s/palestinians/ (http://www.crimelibrary.com/terrorists_spies/terrorists/palestinians/)

clandestino

31st January 2006, 17:48

"Once a culture can convince itself that suicide bombing of innocent civilians is a religious duty, despite Islam's prohibition against suicide and against the murder of civilians, it can rationalize any despicable act. How did this type of terrorism become entrenched in the Palestinian mind and why do the Palestinian people embrace this practice?"

Free Palestine

31st January 2006, 18:28

First of all, the Palestinian people do not "embrace" suicide bombing. I do not know which Zionist garbage dump you picked that up from. Those acts are carried out by militant groups which may draw sympathy from some of the population but still act on their own. And it's painfully obvious why suicide bombings occur, desperate acts of terror from the oppressed have always and always will thrive in enviroments like Israeli occupation.

Vinny Rafarino

31st January 2006, 18:37

Originally posted by fuck palestine+--> (fuck palestine)No, but it's worth pointing out that your article is 5 years old.
[/b]

Of course it is dear. :lol:

Originally posted by fuck palestine+--> (fuck palestine)I didn't "use" anyone as anything. I merely cited the statistics to illustrate who really is the greater purveyor of violence in terms of children deaths. You can make your own conclusions after that.[/b]

You are confused as to meaning of the word "use"; perhaps you should look it up.

Forgive me for being so bold as to assume a kid who can at least connect to the internet and post typed materaial would have at least a remedial understanding of common English words.

Originally posted by fuck palestine
Who's killing children? You are laying the blame on the wrong people.

It appears they both are! Have you forget your own post already? Shucks son, you may want to see a psychologist for that.

Perhaps this will help. (http://addadhdadvances.com/)

As far as blame goes, I'm, laying it right where it belongs: on them both.

Originally posted by fuck palestine
The millions of Palestinians who are forced into miserable enclaves where they are denied adequate water to develop their societies have nothing to do with the terrorism you speak of.

Apparently you are having difficulty with reading comprehension so I will keep it simple: I can give two fucks about either of these two groups of religious nutjobs.

Originally posted by tupac
The Jews are more than just a religious group! They are an ancient civilization which used to live in the area where Israel is today. Most Jews also consider they are a race.

That's the very same thing the third reich used to say.

The Jewish religion can be traced back to an Egyptian man named Mose; a supporter of the Egyptian Pharoh and monotheist Amenhotep IV,( or "Akenaten").

Mose brought Amenhotep's message to the Hebrew tribes in the region where it was combined with the mythological account of a local Midianite prophet and a local volcanic diety

Contrary to what you might believe, the Hebrew tribes that formed what is now considered modern Judaism still lived in that region long before the development of Judaism.

Originally posted by tupac
as TovaryshIvan [wrote], they've prooven themselves worthy of a territory.

I suppose if there were no supporters of reaction like you, Ivan and Johnny Palestine here, we wouldn't be having this argument.

I fucking thrilled.

Originally posted by Atlas Swallowed
It is amazing how 3 of the worlds major religions come from one mans personal god. Way to go Abraham.

Considering there is no actual evidence to support the myth of Abraham, you should really be saying: way to go Amenhotep IV.

Originally posted by infitada
Is it really surprising that a some Palestinians resort to terrorism?

It's more than not "suprising", it's completely predictable.

Originally posted by intifada
The fact of the matter is that Israeli aggression breeds Palestinian terror.

That is a fact.

An indisputable one at that.

[email protected]
Why don't you include the fact that the daily non-violent Palestinian resistance to the illegal occupation is met often by Israeli violence?

I don't include it because it is absolutely irrelevant.

A word of advice, drop the use of the word "illegal"; according to judaic "law', not only is it legal but it's "god's will".

I can't stand rhetoric that seems like it is coming from the lips of some cheesy dictator's propaganda minister...

"The peace loving people of Palestine will continue to struggle against the illegal occupation of blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah...."

Good grief.

intifada
The terrorist acts committed by the Palestinians will end, I am sure, when Israel stops its illegal and inhuman occupation, as the Palestinian people will then have their freedom.

Freedom to do what? Live in the primative shadow of some absurd muslim cleric?

There is nothing "free" about trading suicide bombings and drive by shootings of school kids for decaptiations and daily stonings.

What fucking planet are you kats from anyway?

jaster

31st January 2006, 19:58

its a pity that this sort of thing has become the rule instead of the exeption

and being anti-zionist is not the same as being anti-jewish, its the equivalint of saying that if your anti-bin laden that you are anti-muslim. in fact in the '70's the U.N. passed a bill that was called 'zionisim is racisim, although it was eventually repealed

Intifada

1st February 2006, 20:56

(RAF)

It's more than not "suprising", it's completely predictable.

Indeed.

Athough it took a few decades after the illegal occupation began before the first Palestinian suicide bomber attacked Israel.

I don't include it because it is absolutely irrelevant.

No it is not.

It is completely relevant.

Most Palestinian resistance to the illegal occupation comes in the form of peaceful protest. Of course, this is not mentioned in the Western media, which has a pro-Israeli coverage of the conflict.

To not support their legitimate struggle is to ignore their oppression.

Stop tarring all the Palestinian people with the same "Islamist" brush.

The Palestinians simply want freedom and justice.

A word of advice, drop the use of the word "illegal"; according to judaic "law', not only is it legal but it's "god's will".

No.

The occupation is illegal under international law.

A word of advice to you, however, try debating without resorting to idiotic ad hominems arguments.

Freedom to do what?

To live without fear of having a son, brother, father, daughter, sister or mother being killed.

To live without the fear of having the home you live in being demolished.

To live wthout the fear of having one's livelihood being stolen by settlers.

To live without being harassed and humiliated at checkpoints in your own land.

To be able to go to school without fear.

The list is quite long.

Live in the primative shadow of some absurd muslim cleric?

What uninformed bullshit.

The Occupied Palestinian Territories are by no means an Islamic shithole.

People drink in bars, even during Ramadhan. In no place in the rest of the Arab world would you find that. Palestinian professors can and do write openly atheist and blasphemous articles against Islam.

Atlas Swallowed

2nd February 2006, 00:26

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2006, 05:12 PM
Hey go easy on Jews.... Marx was one... I think its horrible a 9 year old girl being killed by soldiers. And there is no excuse for that. However, she would proably blow herself up in 4 years and take 20 peole with her jews and arabs.. The question regarding homelands is also very complex. I'm not shure if you know about British and French mandates in the region.... But the sights pico agreenment gives right for both Jews and arabs to live in the transjordan.. but guess what... I don't think there are many jews east of Jordan river.. Where to send the jews? Saudi Arabia dosen't allow jews inside... thats a lil too much... In a historical context i think after killing 6 million jews, i think they deserve a place to chill out.maybe zionism is not so evil as it sounds..
Are you retarded? That was one of the stupidest and racisist statements I have ever read. She would probably blow herself up? If that were the case thier would be no more Palestinians left you stupid asswipe. THe Jews were victimised by the Nazis and that gives them more right rights than other humanbeings? Nice racisist logic fuckwad. 9 million Russians were murdered by the Nazis should we give the Russians a break also. 6 million Vietnamese were murdered by the USA should we give them a break also? The American Indians were almost wiped off the face of the earth in the United States should we give them a break also? Millions of Chinese were murdered by the Japanese should we give them a break also? Maybe you should invite a member of the previously mentioned races over to bulldoze your house and shoot your loved ones.

Ol' Dirty

2nd February 2006, 00:58

Isreal is a good idea that was carried out wrong. Yes, the Jewish people should have their own home to call their own, (for the people,not the religion), and I firmly believe that the holocaust was an awful, tragic moment in Jewish and human history, placing the nation where a large amount of Muslims live, and evicting them from their land without a place to call home, is an awful way to get started. Then there was the 6 Day War, then the killings of innocents, etc.
Right now, Isreal ranks near the top of my list of hypocratical nations, as it is inflicting a miniature Holocaust on it's fellow humans. How fucking dystopian is that? I can hear the godman off-key accordian music in the background, and a seven year old kid talking in a low voice.

Peace.

This post is dedicated to all who heve died in this miniature Holocaust and it's backlashes. Shalom Israel, Salam Palestine.

Vinny Rafarino

2nd February 2006, 01:48

Originally posted by intifada+--> (intifada)To not support their legitimate struggle is to ignore their oppression.

Stop tarring all the Palestinian people with the same "Islamist" brush.[/b]

To not support the "peace loving people" of Palestine from the "illegal occupation" of the "imperialist state" of Israel is to ignore their reactionary struggle against other reactionaries

There is is no need for me to "tar" the Palestinian people with the same "Islamic brush".

They have been tarred and feathered by that "brush" for eons jack...eons.

Originally posted by intifada+--> (intifada)
The Palestinians simply want freedom and justice[/b]

Which they will promptly replace with a fanatical, oppressive, religious dominated, primative social stratum.

Perhaps they may be a bit better than usual and sharpen their knives a bit more before they whack each other's heads off.

Originally posted by intifada

No.

The occupation is illegal under international law.

A word of advice to you, however, try debating without resorting to idiotic ad hominems arguments.

Since when did "leftists" start resorting to the use of "international law"? I have no allegiance to any "law" that was created by and for the benifit of the ruling class.

Shame on you son.

I was waiting for you to throw out an "ad hominem". :lol:

Toss out a couple "straw men" with your Jong Il inspired rhetoric and I may just crap my pants.

[email protected]
To live without fear of having a son, brother, father, daughter, sister or mother being killed. To live without the fear of having the home you live in being demolished. To live wthout the fear of having one's livelihood being stolen by settlers. To live without being harassed and humiliated at checkpoints in your own land. To be able to go to school without fear.

The list is quite long.

You have forgotten "to live with the freedom of being able to religiously oppress your own people by fear of decapitation and ritual stoning."

intifada
People drink in bars, even during Ramadhan. In no place in the rest of the Arab world would you find that. Palestinian professors can and do write openly atheist and blasphemous articles against Islam.

Give me their addresses, I'd like to send them a Lear and get them the fuck out of there because they just might win.

Once that happens I fear it's "curtains" for those kats

I could be wrong though, it may be nothing to lose your head over afterall... :lol:

La ComÃ©die Noire

2nd February 2006, 02:02

thats a lil too much... In a historical context i think after killing 6 million jews, i think they deserve a place to chill out.maybe zionism is not so evil as it sounds..

I will feel sorry for someones scars when they stop making fresh wounds In other people.

Phalanx

2nd February 2006, 03:43

That's the problem with some leftists... They lump Israel and Jews together.

BuyOurEverything

2nd February 2006, 06:56

I will feel sorry for someones scars when they stop making fresh wounds In other people.

So you aren't sympathetic to the Palestinians who support suicide bombings?

Tormented by Treachery

2nd February 2006, 07:15

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 07:15 AM

I will feel sorry for someones scars when they stop making fresh wounds In other people.

So you aren't sympathetic to the Palestinians who support suicide bombings?
I am, although I agree with what he said. The reason I claim both is that I feel the Israeli zionists are 'giving better than they receive' so to speak, so I sympathize with the Palestinians. Especially given the very slanted media coverage the Palestinian deaths get in comparison to the Israeli support.

peaccenicked

2nd February 2006, 16:17

http://www.rense.com/general69/notz.htm

This is very long but very worthwhile reading.

Atlas Swallowed

2nd February 2006, 18:22

I would be leary of Rense.com they had white supremicist articles posted in the past(do not know if this is one no time to read it or reseatch the author now). Do not know if Jeff Rense is an anti-Semite but he is a wack job that gives people who research conspiracys a bad name.

amanondeathrow

2nd February 2006, 23:29

Which they will promptly replace with a fanatical, oppressive, religious dominated, primative social stratum.
You have absolutely no evidence to back up this outrages claim, besides your ignorant generalizations. For years the Palestinian Authority was controlled by secularists and only after Hamas provided vital humanitarian services were they given any authority. Who is to say that after they achieve liberation they will not continue the pattern they had been following for years?

Since when did "leftists" start resorting to the use of "international law"? I have no allegiance to any "law" that was created by and for the benefit of the ruling class.
Laws are only to be disobeyed when they are unjust, but when they serve the interests of humanity and opposed imperialism then they must be observed. What about the UN's ruling that the US should pay reparations to Nicaragua? Should the left side with the US on that one because the UN usually serves the interests of the ruling class?

You have forgotten "to live with the freedom of being able to religiously oppress your own people by fear of decapitation and ritual stoning."
Again, you have presented no evidence which even remotely shows that the majority of Palestinians are Islamic fundamentalists, and you will have a hard time finding it. You can not continue to spit out these outrageous claims and expect a legitimate debate. I am having trouble understanding why you have not been restricted yet.

Give me their addresses, I'd like to send them a Lear and get them the fuck out of there because they just might win.
I am sure they would appreciate your concern, but most would disagree with you hostile analysis of their people's struggle for dignity.

Vinny Rafarino

3rd February 2006, 01:44

Originally posted by Dee's Nuts
You have absolutely no evidence to back up this outrages claim, besides your ignorant generalizations.

No evidence?

You must either be daft, blind or Salinger's cabana boy to say such a thing.

Considering you think of yourself as an "Anarcho-monarchist', I do believe we can all be quite certain which door of the hen house your rooster shot from.

Laws are only to be disobeyed when they are unjust, but when they serve the interests of humanity and opposed imperialism then they must be observed. What about the UN's ruling that the US should pay reparations to Nicaragua? Should the left side with the US on that one because the UN usually serves the interests of the ruling class?

Another common myth among neo-leftist; laws that are created by and do service to the ruling class are no laws of ours.

The only possible social condition or that can even remotely be considered in the "interest of humanity" is complete massive revolt against the ruling class.

Period.

Again, you have presented no evidence which even remotely shows that the majority of Palestinians are Islamic fundamentalists, and you will have a hard time finding it.

:lol:

Perhaps you are indeed J.D.'s cabana boy.

La ComÃ©die Noire

3rd February 2006, 01:50

So you aren't sympathetic to the Palestinians who support suicide bombings?

Who said I was?

The statment was directed at what the guy said in relation to the Israel State and the holocaust. Should we allow a nationalistic movement to occur just because the people who started it were related or had a common background to people who were crushed by a nationalistic movement themselves?

I mean suicide bombing is horrible and all but so is getting kicked out of your house, having it bulldozed, having tanks patrol your street, having fatigue wearing thugs Impose a cerfew on you, and maybe just maybe a bigger group of fatigue wearing thugs, the U.S, will carpet bomb you. And what it all really comes down to is some biblical scripture said the land belonged to the group these fatigue wearing thugs came from.

I'm not lumping Israel with all jewish people it's the goverment of Israel who is doing it themselves, because they want a valid excuse to get into the middle east.

I think people are opposed to suicide bombers more than brute military force because suicide bombing is so unconventinal and has shock value in it. I do not like the Idea of a man detonating himself in a crowd full of bizzare shoppers but a tank smooshing children does not sit right with me either.

Tormented by Treachery

3rd February 2006, 02:03

By the way, I think that (if there isn't already) there should be a sticky that documents the images and articles of Zionism, as there seems to be a new thread on the matter every day, for every separate issue.

amanondeathrow

3rd February 2006, 02:04

No evidence?

You must either be daft, blind or Salinger's cabana boy to say such a thing.

A four year old article about a killing of Israeli children by a Muslim group, whose religious extremism is not supported by the majority of the Palestinian population, is not sufficient evidence to prove that a radical Islamic government would take control of an independent Palestine. If I missed something, please remind me.

Another common myth among neo-leftist; laws that are created by and do service to the ruling class are no laws of ours.
The only possible social condition or that can even remotely be considered in the "interest of humanity" is complete massive revolt against the ruling class.
How dose the US paying reparations to a country it terrorized for a decade serve the ruling class? I agree that in the end revolution is the only way to liberate the working class, but until then there is nothing wrong with supporting laws that support our interests , as long as we acknowledge that the system itself serves the elites. Believing that we should separate ourselves completely from international law is counter productive.

Considering you think of yourself as an "Anarcho-monarchist', I do believe we can all be quite certain which door of the hen house your rooster shot from.
If attacking my sarcastic member's title is the best defense you have of your misinformed hostility to the Palestinian people, then I think it is fair to say that you have chosen the wrong opinion. I hope after you take some time to think critically (or at least with common sense) you will see your error.

Vinny Rafarino

3rd February 2006, 02:44

Originally posted by dee's nutts
If I missed something, please remind me.

It appears you are "missing" plenty. I suggest you do a search on the internet.

What you have conveniently "missed" could even be enough to fill the great chasm left in the hearts of the "freedom and peace loving people" of Palestine once little Yasser went to the farm.

I wouldn't lay on that one though...I prefer sure things; Marciano in the 13th!

How dose the US paying reparations to a country it terrorized for a decade serve the ruling class?

That's what they said about "trickle down economics"; only we found that what "trickled down" to us was just a burning sack full of shit on our porch.

Believing that we should separate ourselves completely from international law is counter productive.

"Counter productive" to what?

Your own personal goals and aspirations?

A "budding" career in bourgeois politics perhaps?

Good grief.

If attacking my sarcastic member's title is the best defense you have of your misinformed hostility to the Palestinian people

I haven't even begun to show my hostilities for the rectionary movement in Palestine.

Better grab some popcorn son because you could be in for a show that would give Chinny Gigante a hard on.

amanondeathrow

3rd February 2006, 02:57

What you have conveniently "missed" could even be enough to fill the great chasm left in the hearts of the "freedom and peace loving people" of Palestine once little Yasser went to the farm.
If there is so much of it, then why don’t you mention something?

That's what they said about "trickle down economics"; only we found that what "trickled down" to us was just a burning sack full of shit on our porch.
Some how you have managed to misunderstand a simple point. I said nothing about participating in the United Nations or any elections for that matter; I am a full supporter of revolution. But when the UN says something that is in our interests, there is nothing wrong with using it as evidence against the American government. At least then we can show how they only adhere to their laws when they are beneficial.

That's what they said about "trickle down economics"; only we found that what "trickled down" to us was just a burning sack full of shit on our porch.
That does not answer my question at all. Please pull your finger out of your pee hole for just one second.

"Counter productive" to what?

Your own personal goals and aspirations?

A "budding" career in bourgeois politics perhaps?

Good grief.
When you have evidence, it is counter productive not to use it, just because it was said by the UN.

I haven't even begun to show my hostilities for the rectionary movement in Palestine.

Better grab some popcorn son because you could be in for a show that would give Chinny Gigante a hard on.
Lets see what bull shit you’ll come up with this time, and it takes a lot to give me a hard on so don’t get your hopes up.

Vinny Rafarino

3rd February 2006, 03:29

Originally posted by dee's nuts
But when the UN says something that is in our interests, there is nothing wrong with using it as evidence against the American government

Don't worry son, your point was clear enough; I simply rejected it.

I'm sorry that you were unable to grasp the analogy I presented you.

If there is so much of it, then why don’t you mention something?

You're not fooling anyone with that. Every other individual is perfetly aware of the sea of evidence that is floating around the fanatics in Palestine; they simply are not silly enough to pretent to have "missed it".

It's virtually impossible[/] to miss such "explosively direct bits" of "evidence".

Particularly when they contain "bits" of a few dozen people.

[b]Please pull your finger out of your pee hole for just one second.

Thank's for the compliment sonny boy.

and it takes a lot to give me a hard on so don’t get your hopes up.

I reckon it just wasn't meant to be...We're just two square pegs looking for a warm heart to rest in...but alas we're just too different Johnny, we found our cold bitter hearts had no square rooms left in them for old lonely wanderers trying to get out of the cold and into the warm glow of the sweet moonlight shining through the lace curtains of our souls.

At least we will always have Monaco in the springtime Johnny...cherish the memories I tell ya....cherish them.

amanondeathrow

3rd February 2006, 03:36

Don't worry son, your point was clear enough; I simply rejected it.
If you understood my point, then you would not have responded in the way you did.

You're not fooling anyone with that. Every other individual is perfetly aware of the sea of evidence that is floating around the fanatics in Palestine; they simply are not silly enough to pretent to have "missed it".

It's virtually [b]impossible[/] to miss such "explosively direct bits" of "evidence".

Particularly when they contain "bits" of a few dozen people.
And your not fooling anyone when you say that the presence of suicide bombers in Palestine proves that an Islamic fundamentalist government will come to power. I could say that because the Marxist PFLP conducted attacks that it means that a Socialist government will taken control, but I am not as foolish as you.

Thank's for the compliment sonny boy.
You’re very welcome.

I reckon it just wasn't meant to be...We're just two square pegs looking for a warm heart to rest in...but alas we're just too different Johnny, we found our cold bitter hearts had no square rooms left in them for old lonely wanderers trying to get out of the cold and into the warm glow of the sweet moonlight shining through the lace curtains of our souls.

At least we will always have Monaco in the springtime Johnny...cherish the memories I tell ya....cherish them.
Wow, you're really proving your point.

Free Palestine

3rd February 2006, 06:55

Comrade RAF really shows us all his intellectual capacity when he suddenly bursts into string of abusive hyperbole every post that makes him sound like a second grader. Dee's Nuts is really owning him. :lol:

leftist resistance

3rd February 2006, 11:24

:lol: :lol:

Anyway,who said zionism is anti-jews?read this http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/opposed.html

zionism is a nationalistic belief.much like germany for germans during hitler's days.im surprised some people who claim to be socialist support such a cause

Vinny Rafarino

3rd February 2006, 15:25

Originally posted by Free [email protected] 3 2006, 12:14 AM
Comrade RAF really shows us all his intellectual capacity when he suddenly bursts into string of abusive hyperbole every post that makes him sound like a second grader. Dee's Nuts is really owning him. :lol:
Ahh sweet memories...

The last time I was "owned" by a teenager was in 1982; she made it hurt so good.

romanm

3rd February 2006, 16:18

Real communists support the national liberation and self-determination of all oppressed nations. Those who draw a moral equivalence between the violence of the oppressor and the oppressed are bourgeois liberals -- from a revolutionary standpoint, they should just be written off. One the one side, you have a racist apartheid euro-settler state that is waging genocide. One the other side you have a heroic people struggling for national liberation.

Vinny Rafarino

3rd February 2006, 16:51

Originally posted by MIM Drone
Real communists support the national liberation and self-determination of all oppressed nations.

Fortunately for us pseudo-Communists, the real deal-Holyfield kats over at MIM keep are prepared to drop their 20 sided dice and Monster Manual at a moments notice and lead us jerkoffs into glorious victory.

Whatever would we do without them?

Atlas Swallowed

3rd February 2006, 18:33

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 3 2006, 03:44 PM

Ahh sweet memories...

The last time I was "owned" by a teenager was in 1982; she made it hurt so good.
Refering to your hand as she is kind of creepy. Owned by another part your own body interesting....

Free Palestine

3rd February 2006, 19:00

Ménage à un. :lol:

The Grey Blur

3rd February 2006, 19:20

Comrade RAF what is the real reason you attack Palestinians?

I mean, you can hide behind the whole "anti-religious" cover for as long as you want but when you have yet to substantially critiscize Israel, a state that regularly and systematically kills and humiliates Palestinians and is a hell of a lot more Religious than Palestine one can only wonder...is this conflict personal for you ?

Did you lose a family member to a suicide bomber, were you raised with the belief that the Jewish race deserved a homeland, or was it something else? You having an emotional connection to this conflict is the only way I could possibly comprehend your irrational, pro-Zionist stance that contradicts all Anti-Imperialist, Socialist thinking. Thank you

clandestino

3rd February 2006, 19:50

Originally posted by Atlas [email protected] 2 2006, 12:45 AM

Are you retarded? That was one of the stupidest and racisist statements I have ever read. She would probably blow herself up? If that were the case thier would be no more Palestinians left you stupid asswipe. THe Jews were victimised by the Nazis and that gives them more right rights than other humanbeings? Nice racisist logic fuckwad. 9 million Russians were murdered by the Nazis should we give the Russians a break also. 6 million Vietnamese were murdered by the USA should we give them a break also? The American Indians were almost wiped off the face of the earth in the United States should we give them a break also? Millions of Chinese were murdered by the Japanese should we give them a break also? Maybe you should invite a member of the previously mentioned races over to bulldoze your house and shoot your loved ones.
Ever tried arguing with an idiot? I have tremendous balls to reply to your comment. Firstly, I'm not retarded bacause of my comments...and yes you are right, it was a racist comment... im not shure about the stupidest statement...However,this is the case, and the reason there are still palestinians left (to answer your question) is because they are mostly fundamentaist that have 10 babies per family.. so for every 10 who are brainwashed by some "retarded" religious ideology 4 blow themselves up. theres still 6 left dude! You are 100% right, because jews were "exterminated" it does not give them more rights than others...and i.e we did give a break to the indians.. they have casinos, the Chinease have a nice support from the US...Im not really shure what the Vietnamese have...Let me ask you some questions companero: Why let anger and insults take the best of you when commenting on such an issue? Your ability to reason is impaired when your passion for the topic takes over... This is not the 14th century were you kill people for their views.

Vinny Rafarino

3rd February 2006, 21:26

Originally posted by rage_atm+--> (rage_atm)Comrade RAF what is the real reason you attack Palestinians?

I mean, you can hide behind the whole "anti-religious" cover for as long as you want but when you have yet to substantially critiscize Israel, a state that regularly and systematically kills and humiliates Palestinians and is a hell of a lot more Religious than Palestine one can only wonder...is this conflict personal for you ? [/b]

If you have bothered to read the entire thread you will see that I have no interest in defending the actions of either of these two reactionary groups.

There is more juice for the Palestinian front simply because there are more "leftists" here that will attemot to argue their deli-style thin positions.

I am always "up for" exposing bullshit when it drops from the steer's ass right into my lap.

If it makes you feel any better son, I personally think that the Zionist movement (Israel) is full of reactionary superstitious nut jobs.

They too can go fuck themselves.

Did you lose a family member to a suicide bomber, were you raised with the belief that the Jewish race deserved a homeland, or was it something else? You having an emotional connection to this conflict is the only way I could possibly comprehend your irrational, pro-Zionist stance that contradicts all Anti-Imperialist, Socialist thinking. Thank you

Next time take the time to read the entire thread my little jellybean.

Atlas "swallowed"
Refering to your hand as she is kind of creepy. Owned by another part your own body interesting....

You are so wrong son; when it puts the lotion on, the cocoa butter makes her so smooth and creamy.

Jerkoff.

La ComÃ©die Noire

3rd February 2006, 21:42

If it makes you feel any better son, I personally think that the Zionist movement (Israel) is full of reactionary superstitious nut jobs.

That Is all I need to hear. And I will say that the religious fanatics with dynamite sin there pockets aren't to with it either.

ricardsju

4th February 2006, 09:26

I am hostile both Israel & Palestine (REALLY FUCK THEM BOTH!). I guess you can sum why I myself don't support Palestine is that can't get over the fact that they are religious(In noway do I tolerate religion),I feel religious Communist movemnets are not progressive but are reactionary and a front for conservatists(fake alternative, think 1984) and regressionists(a return to religious feudalism)

I feel the same way about homosexuals who believe in a Monotheist religion and Jews who are neo-nazi as I do about one who is religious and "believes" in Communism( Believing in something that is trying to destroy part of you(be it your life or be it your fath) is boarding on insanity).

SO... am I a dirty Zionist for thinking this way?
IF I said I was 1/16th deutscher Jude, würden Sie Stoß aus dem schmutzigen Juden sagen! ?

-----
Q&A with myself

Is the PLO atheist or muslim ?
From what I can see it seems to be made up of more than 90% of those that are muslim(follower of Islam) with 4% Christian (follower of Christianity).

Is that Marxist-Leninist ?
This can be replyed with a question: Who here is orthodox-Marxist (or Council communist/Anarchist communist) and believes in religion or supports it? (no one I take it ?)

Intifada

4th February 2006, 12:24

(ricardsju)

Is the PLO atheist or muslim ?
From what I can see it seems to be made up of more than 90% of those that are muslim(follower of Islam) with 4% Christian (follower of Christianity).

Be honest here, you don't know the first thing about the PLO do you?

The above quote, from yourself, sums up how ignorant some people are of the Palestinian issue.

If you knew anything about the PLO, you would know that it is made up entirely of Nationalists, Leftists, Communists and a few Ba'thists.

In fact, the PLO has always aimed to establish a secular democratic binational state in Israel/Palestine under which all citizens will have equal status and rights regardless of race, sex, or religion.

La ComÃ©die Noire

4th February 2006, 15:19

I do not think our aim should be to support one side of the reactionary conflict I think our goal should be to unite all secular people, of Palestine and Israel, against both deadly nationalist movements. Togeather they could kick the religious fanatics and Imperlialists out.

Vinny Rafarino

4th February 2006, 20:15

At the very least we now have a couple kats in this thread with some sense.

JKP

5th February 2006, 00:28

http://img452.imageshack.us/img452/4328/israellovesu5ya.jpg

amanondeathrow

5th February 2006, 02:33

RAF

There is more juice for the Palestinian front simply because there are more "leftists" here that will attemot to argue their deli-style thin positions.
There is more "juice" for the Palestinian side because they are being occupied by a US sponsored terrorist state. They do not need anyone on this board to prove this for them; one must only look at the history of the region to understand why your comparison between state terrorism and resistance is ill-advised.

I am always "up for" exposing bullshit when it drops from the steer's ass right into my lap.
You have exposed nothing not already known by anyone vaguely familiar with the conflict in Palestine. The fact that Palestinian militants have killed Israelis is not something that needs to be exposed; it is on the front page of every newspaper every time it happens. What really needs to be exposed is the mass of unreported killings of innocent Palestinians. If you would only take more time to look beyond what you see on the nightly news, you would understand why these so-called "reactionary" Palestinians do what they do.

If it makes you feel any better son, I personally think that the Zionist movement (Israel) is full of reactionary superstitious nut jobs.
It dose not matter how much you dislike Zionism, if you equate it with Palestinian resistance. The only reason that religious extremists have gained any influence in one of the most secular regions of the Middle East is because of the brutality forced on Palestinian communities. It is easier to just say that any movement that does not perfectly fit your vision of revolution is reactionary, then to critically analyze the facts and understand who is truly in the right.

They too can go fuck themselves.
So you are saying that Palestinians can simply go fuck themselves just because they have run out of options in the defense of their right to exist?

clandestino

.However,this is the case, and the reason there are still palestinians left (to answer your question) is because they are mostly fundamentaist that have 10 babies per family.. so for every 10 who are brainwashed by some "retarded" religious ideology 4 blow themselves up. theres still 6 left dude!
Again, I have to say it is hard to believe that Free Palestine has been restricted while this ignorant dribble goes unpunished. Do you seriously believe that every Palestinian is some kind of Muslim extremist? I think it has been said many other times during this discussion, but Palestine is one of the most secular regions of the Muslim world and it pains me to know that there are so-called leftists here who do not understand this simple fact and that the vast majority of Palestinians have never participated in the killing of Israelis. Please be more careful next time to keep your racism to yourself.

ricardsju

I guess you can sum why I myself don't support Palestine is that can't get over the fact that they are religious(In noway do I tolerate religion),I feel religious Communist movemnets are not progressive but are reactionary and a front for conservatists(fake alternative, think 1984) and regressionists(a return to religious feudalism)
It matters little if the Palestinians subscribe to your specific brand of communism. What does matter is that they deserve the right to exist in a world where they are not constantly afraid of seeing there children murdered and then having it go unreported, while ignorant pricks like you accuse them of being religious fundamentalists. One must only look at the picture posted by JKP to see the terror Palestinians face while a fraction of that is faced by Israelis.

ricardsju

5th February 2006, 02:41

Be honest here, you don't know the first thing about the PLO do you?

The above quote, from yourself, sums up how ignorant some people are of the Palestinian issue.

If you knew anything about the PLO, you would know that it is made up entirely of Nationalists, Leftists, Communists and a few Ba'thists.

I haven't done any indepth research no, but I didn't say they where not made up of Marxist-Leninist Communists groups, Ba'thist groups, social democrats like groups and the major group the nationalist Fatah group.

but that dsoen't change the fact they are pretty much muslims(followers of Islam)!
and I know they haven't committed any "terrorist acts" in 16 years(great to hear they(PFLP) "accidently" killed more children than adults when they where into "terrorist acts", is that why they stoped ? )

let me guess are you a Marxist-Leninist ?

Vinny Rafarino

5th February 2006, 02:46

Originally posted by nuts
It dose not matter how much you dislike Zionism, if you equate it with Palestinian resistance. The only reason that religious extremists have gained any influence in one of the most secular regions of the Middle East is because of the brutality forced on Palestinian communities. It is easier to just say that any movement that does not perfectly fit your vision of revolution is reactionary, then to critically analyze the facts and understand who is truly in the right.

You are truly blind to the social and religious conditions in North Africa and the Middle East.

It also appears that you are also one whom is confused of the meaning of the word reactionary. I suggest you educate yourself; you may actually learn something.

What really needs to be exposed is the mass of unreported killings of innocent Palestinians.

Agreed!

The Zionists are about as "innocent" as Sammy the rat Gravanno.

There is more "juice" for the Palestinian side because they are being occupied by a US sponsored terrorist state. They do not need anyone on this board to prove this for them; one must only look at the history of the region to understand why your comparison between state terrorism and resistance is ill-advised

The good thing is, it ain't hard "look at the history of the region"; children being shot or blown to pieces has a habit of "stretching out".

Perhaps you would be happier contacting Hamas and moving over to Palestine in order to "aid" the "cause".

As long as you don't mind aiding the cause by getting your head sawed off on Al-Jazeera. :lol:

So you are saying that Palestinians can simply go fuck themselves just because they have run out of options in the defense of their right to exist?

Did I stutter son?

amanondeathrow

5th February 2006, 03:10

RAF

You are truly blind to the social and religious conditions in North Africa and the Middle East.
Then would you please educate me as to the situation, because everything non-rightist that I have ever read tells me different.

It also appears that you are also one whom is confused of the meaning of the word reactionary. I suggest you educate yourself; you may actually learn something.
I know damn well what the word reactionary means, the person who has a problem with it his obviously you. Although there is a section of the Palestinian resistance that subscribes to religious reaction, the majority do not deserve this label. And from now on, would you please be more clear when you make points and explain why you have come to your conclusions, instead of expecting me to discern your inane rambling.

The good thing is, it ain't hard "look at the history of the region"; children being shot or blown to pieces has a habit of "stretching out".
But only when those children have Israeli citizenship. And you have managed to side step around the issue at hand again.

Perhaps you would be happier contacting Hamas and moving over to Palestine in order to "aid" the "cause".

As long as you don't mind aiding the cause by getting your head sawed off on Al-Jazeera. laugh.gif
It pains me that you continue to make the claim that the majority of Palestinians are Islamic fundamentalist, when you have no evidence and retreat to your witty comments every time you are asked to present it. This time I will not even bother asking you, because I know you do not have any.

Did I stutter son?
I did not think that you did, but I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt because it is hard to comprehend such ignorance.

Vinny Rafarino

5th February 2006, 03:35

Originally posted by definitely nuts
Then would you please educate me as to the situation, because everything non-rightist that I have ever read tells me different.

Sure thing honey.

There are these wacky things called "search engines".

Use them.

And from now on, would you please be more clear when you make points and explain why you have come to your conclusions, instead of expecting me to discern your inane rambling.

I'm very sorry that you lack the cognitave ability to comprehend what I am saying.

It's okay swea' pea, not everyone needs to be "smart". I'm sure one day you will find something that you enjoy doing that fits well into your "capacities".

But only when those children have Israeli citizenship. And you have managed to side step around the issue at hand again.

Wow.

Here (http://www.state.nj.us/humanservices/dmhs/) is something you should look into.

amanondeathrow

5th February 2006, 03:44

Sure thing honey.

There are these wacky things called "search engines".

Use them.
Yes, because it is my responsibility to find your evidence. Especially when you can not even summarize what this evidence contains.

I'm very sorry that you lack the cognitave ability to comprehend what I am saying.
I understand quite well what you are saying, but I would like to think that you have a reason for saying. Please back up your comments, that’s all I ask.

Wow.

Here is something you should look into.

Again, you are really managing to convince me that there is no double standard in the way the media reports the conflict in Palestine.

This debate is going no where and until you can present some reasonable evidence for you outrages claims, I think it would be best if you simply shut up.

Vinny Rafarino

5th February 2006, 04:02

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 4 2006, 08:38 AM
I do not think our aim should be to support one side of the reactionary conflict I think our goal should be to unite all secular people, of Palestine and Israel, against both deadly nationalist movements. Togeather they could kick the religious fanatics and Imperlialists out.
Unfortunately, the outcome for this little gem is already written in stone. No amount of educating or activist activity will "unite" these people together.

Why? Because they don't want to be united.

It's a sad situation but I fear it will be a long time until the people of this region are ready for anything other than their traditional behaviours.

They will continue to whack kids, blow themselves to pieces and chop off heads for many years to come until they eventually progress to a stratum that will indicate a higher level of social maturity.

Only then will they be able to conquer their own primative traditions.

ricardsju

5th February 2006, 11:28

Dee's Nuts

So you will continue to support these oppressed people no matter how barbaric and despicable their deeds are in their freedom fighting against the diabolical acts of "the jew". The jewish people voted in the jewish bureaucrats who are the ones that order the crimes against the people of Palestine, dose that then mean that the people of Israel earn such terribile retribution?
Yet when the people of Palestine vote(by a landside) in Hamas(a fanatical islamist movement) as their government who seeks to establish an Islamic theocracy by the means of committing, aiding and supporting "terrorist actions", then are the people of Palestine white as snow? Then you would follow Palestine to the lows of low along with Israel into the nefarious epitome of (fabricated)human nature in this continual change of blame, as this is a cycle of violence that will have no abrupt end till world Revolution and the end of religion! And no amount of shouting its Israels fault will do anything, the fault is a mix of : the Roman Empire, the Byzantine Empire , the Crusaders states,Empire Ottoman and the British Empire with the help of League of Nations(plus nazi germany played a part).

amanondeathrow

5th February 2006, 22:46

ricardsju

So you will continue to support these oppressed people no matter how barbaric and despicable their deeds are in their freedom fighting against the diabolical acts of "the jew".
When have I ever stated that I support terrorism against innocent civilians? You are having a great deal of trouble understanding what is being argued in this discussion and I think you should read the rest of the thread before you make such comments. It is not every Palestinian civilian who is involved in attacks on Israeli civilians, in fact the vast majority are victims not attackers.

The jewish people voted in the jewish bureaucrats who are the ones that order the crimes against the people of Palestine, dose that then mean that the people of Israel earn such terribile retribution?
Again, the innocent members of the state of Israel do not deserve any retribution, but the amount of terror imposed on the Palestinians far out ways anything faced by Israelis. Did the Palestinian people earn such terror just because Israel elected murders as its leaders?

Yet when the people of Palestine vote(by a landside) in Hamas(a fanatical islamist movement) as their government who seeks to establish an Islamic theocracy by the means of committing, aiding and supporting "terrorist actions", then are the people of Palestine white as snow?
As it has been said already, Palestinians were left with few options when they elected Hamas to power. The vast majority backed Hamas, not because of their terrorism but because of their humanitarian efforts; so yes the average Palestinian is "white as snow" even though they elected Hamas.

Then you would follow Palestine to the lows of low along with Israel into the nefarious epitome of (fabricated)human nature in this continual change of blame, as this is a cycle of violence that will have no abrupt end till world Revolution and the end of religion!
I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone on this board that does not believe that religion needs to be abolished, including me. However, theorizing about a world free from mythology will not help those being murdered in Palestine.

And no amount of shouting its Israels fault will do anything, the fault is a mix of : the Roman Empire, the Byzantine Empire , the Crusaders states,Empire Ottoman and the British Empire with the help of League of Nations(plus nazi germany played a part).
You are right, the slaughter in Palestine is the fault of imperialism. But that does not change the facts: the vast number of those killed are Palestinian and the current warfare rests solely on the shoulders of Israel.

ricardsju

6th February 2006, 06:55

When have I ever stated that I support terrorism against innocent civilians?

If you can tell me how support in proxy and out and out suppport are totally different things then no you have never supported terrorism against innocent civilians.

It is not every Palestinian civilian who is involved in attacks on Israeli civilians, in fact the vast majority are victims not attackers.

Yes the vast majority of Palestinian civilians are not attackers(who use terror) but they are supporters of the use of terror outright or via proxy.

Again, the innocent members of the state of Israel do not deserve any retribution, but the amount of terror imposed on the Palestinians far out ways anything faced by Israelis.
Rogue-Terrorism is far far more powerful than state-Terrorism but yes the Palestinians still do face far more terror.

Did the Palestinian people earn such terror just because Israel elected murders as its leaders?

There is a old British or Scottish saying "it takes two to fight but one to walk away", but Rogue-Terrorist acts far outweigh peaceful Palestinian protests even from indie newsmedia. They have rejected many Chaces along with Israel to to finely have peace.

As it has been said already, Palestinians were left with few options when they elected Hamas to power. The vast majority backed Hamas, not because of their terrorism but because of their humanitarian efforts; so yes the average Palestinian is "white as snow" even though they elected Hamas.

Not the frist time I have told that, and always in the same way. But really do you really think they just over looked the terrorism, shouts for a Islamic theocracy and with fact that in all likeyhood Hamas is going to move away from any hope of peace while in government for a bit of effort in humanitarian acts?
And with the world droping aid support it looks like they would of been much better off not to have anything to do with a fanatical islamist movement, apart from if they really did supoort them or were blined by lies.

I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone on this board that does not believe that religion needs to be abolished, including me. However, theorizing about a world free from mythology will not help those being murdered in Palestine.

In my short time posting here I have seent shit loads of people here who support religion, well most of them turn out to be regressionists after about 20 posts here but there are still some that call them selfs como and yet are JesusFreaks.

You are right, the slaughter in Palestine is the fault of imperialism. But that does not change the facts: the vast number of those killed are Palestinian and the current warfare rests solely on the shoulders of Israel.

Are we back to saying its all Israels fault and not a cycle of violence? Palestine is doing a shit job at trying peace and Israel is not far behind. one pinnacle of violence is directly related to the pinnacle of violence before that.

http://jmcc.org/publicpoll/results/2005/no54.pdf

Intifada

6th February 2006, 18:25

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2006, 03:06 AM
I haven't done any indepth research no, but I didn't say they where not made up of Marxist-Leninist Communists groups, Ba'thist groups, social democrats like groups and the major group the nationalist Fatah group.

but that dsoen't change the fact they are pretty much muslims(followers of Islam)!
and I know they haven't committed any "terrorist acts" in 16 years(great to hear they(PFLP) "accidently" killed more children than adults when they where into "terrorist acts", is that why they stoped ? )

let me guess are you a Marxist-Leninist ?
Yes because all Arabs are Muslims...

Provide some evidence for your idiotic percentages, please, otherwise shut up.

Anyway, why should a personal belief in a "God" stop one from supporting a struggle for freedom? Either way, the PLO is a secular organisation, and in no way made up of Islamic fundamentalists.

For the record, I am a Communist.

but Rogue-Terrorist acts far outweigh peaceful Palestinian protests even from indie newsmedia.

Evidence please.

They have rejected many Chaces along with Israel to to finely have peace.

That is news to me.

When have the Israelis offered to end the illegal occupation of Palestinian territory, entirely?

But really do you really think they just over looked the terrorism, shouts for a Islamic theocracy and with fact that in all likeyhood Hamas is going to move away from any hope of peace while in government for a bit of effort in humanitarian acts?

Palestinians voted Hamas for a variety of reasons.

The most important factor in the Hamas election victory was the clear ineptitude of the Fatah government. They failed to give Palestinians what they needed most, and, moreover, Fatah was not exactly free of corruption.

In fact, it was incredibly corrupt.

The Palestinians did something which should not really surprise anybody - they voted for an alternative, as soon as they had the chance to do so.

That may be hard to understand for somebody living in relative luxury.

Moreover, I do not think that Hamas will refuse to negotiate with the Israelis. The Palestinian people, as well as Israelis, want peace talks.

Hamas needs to listen to the people of Palestine, and has no choice but to do so.

Are we back to saying its all Israels fault and not a cycle of violence?

The root of the conflict is the illegal occupation.

Therefore, yes, Israel is to blame for the situation we see today.

Palestine is doing a shit job at trying peace and Israel is not far behind.

The Palestinians are fighting an aggressive and oppressive state.

Israel is continuing an illegal occupation that automatically prevents any hope for peace.

Vinny Rafarino

6th February 2006, 21:02

Originally posted by intifada
Provide some evidence for your idiotic percentages, please, otherwise shut up.

I fail to see how any portion of ricardsju's statement called for you to become borderline abusive.

It's fairly sad when people can't maintain their composure when faced with opposing opinions.

Lately, I've never been referred to as an "idiot" and told to "fuck off" this many times by random adolescents since I yelled "Poison sucks balls" at a bunch of goofy kids in front of Gazzari's in 1986.

One thing is certain though: the more people I see spouting spastic inflictives at me just for stating the obvious, the more I know I'm on the right track.

Perhaps you should understand that the moderators and administration for this board are required to hold themselves to a higher standard of behaviour in the forums; no matter how red with anger their chubby little cheeks get.

amanondeathrow

6th February 2006, 21:15

If you can tell me how support in proxy and out and out suppport are totally different things then no you have never supported terrorism against innocent civilians.

I have never said that I support the small minority of Palestinians who attack civilians
and want to liquidate every Jew. Pointing out that the state of Israel is responsible for leaving these people with few options or expressing sympathy for those who only attack military targets or wage a peaceful struggle for self determination, is hardly support for the murder of Israeli children.

Yes the vast majority of Palestinian civilians are not attackers(who use terror) but they are supporters of the use of terror outright or via proxy.

This is another example of the ignorance that many participating in this discusion seem to have been infected with; can you back up this statement with any eveidenc?

Rogue-Terrorism is far far more powerful than state-Terrorism but yes the Palestinians still do face far more terror.

If Palestinian terrorists are more powerful, then why do their countrymen make up the vast majority of victims?

In my short time posting here I have seent shit loads of people here who support religion, well most of them turn out to be regressionists after about 20 posts here but there are still some that call them selfs como and yet are JesusFreaks.
It does not matter what they call themselves. If they believe in god, chances are they are not communists.

Intifada

6th February 2006, 21:40

(RAF)

I fail to see how any portion of ricardsju's statement called for you to become borderline abusive.

I don't see anything "abusive" about what I wrote.

"Shut up" is just a nicer way of saying "stop talking crap".

Anyway, I think that the person who links to pages like this (http://addadhdadvances.com/) and this (http://www.state.nj.us/humanservices/dmhs/), in response to another person's argument, is in no positon to start criticising others for "abusive" behaviour.

In fact, most of your posts in this thread a more or less abusive and insulting, rather than constructive and meaningful.

Perhaps you should understand that the moderators and administration for this board are required to hold themselves to a higher standard of behaviour in the forums; no matter how red with anger their chubby little cheeks get.

If you or anybody else has a problem with my behaviour as a mod, go complain in the relevant forum.

I like constructive criticism.

Vinny Rafarino

6th February 2006, 22:50

Originally posted by intifada
I don't see anything "abusive" about what I wrote.

Of course you didn't see it son, if you did then you would have rected like a mod.

Anyway, I think that the person who links to pages like this and this, in response to another person's argument, is in no positon to start criticising others for "abusive" behaviour.

I'm not a mod any longer sonny boy.

If you or anybody else has a problem with my behaviour as a mod, go complain in the relevant forum.

I like constructive criticism.

No thanks, I prefer to call you out on your shit right here in the open forums. I can care less "what is done with you"; I just want to make sure you youngin's here do your book lernin' and chores before suppertime.

Free Palestine

6th February 2006, 23:12

Originally posted by Comrade RAF
It's fairly sad when people can't maintain their composure when faced with opposing opinions.

Oh shut the hell up you sad bastard. Pot and the kettle. Pot and the fucking kettle.

Vinny Rafarino

6th February 2006, 23:55

Originally posted by Free Palestine+Feb 6 2006, 04:37 PM--> (Free Palestine @ Feb 6 2006, 04:37 PM)
Comrade RAF
It's fairly sad when people can't maintain their composure when faced with opposing opinions.

Oh shut the hell up you sad bastard. Pot and the kettle. Pot and the fucking kettle. [/b]
Does this mean that our date on Staurday night is canceled?

Tormented by Treachery

7th February 2006, 00:01

This has gotten ridiculous and off-topic to the point of hilarity.

Vinny Rafarino

7th February 2006, 00:49

Originally posted by Tormented by [email protected] 6 2006, 05:26 PM
This has gotten ridiculous and off-topic to the point of hilarity.
This topic has always been ridiculous and hilarious.

Reactionism always is.

Free Palestine

7th February 2006, 02:33

Originally posted by Comrade RAF+Feb 7 2006, 12:20 AM--> (Comrade RAF @ Feb 7 2006, 12:20 AM)
Originally posted by Free [email protected] 6 2006, 04:37 PM

Comrade RAF
It's fairly sad when people can't maintain their composure when faced with opposing opinions.

Oh shut the hell up you sad bastard. Pot and the kettle. Pot and the fucking kettle.
Does this mean that our date on Staurday night is canceled? [/b]
You like to talk about how old you are, yet your behavior redefines puerile. Whatever your real age, you have about the same intelligence as that of your average 10 year old. Though, you may not quite be as bright as the more advanced 10 year olds that were raised in a more parochial setting. :)

amanondeathrow

7th February 2006, 02:39

This topic has always been ridiculous and hilarious.

Reactionism always is.
It is only ridiculous because you refuse to present any evidence to back up your claims, unlike those who understand the conflict.

Vinny Rafarino

7th February 2006, 03:01

Gee whiz, you kids sure are sore.

Say, I know what will cheer you boys up: maybe we can go to the sody jerk get you two laddies a malt or something.

Well golly, whad'ya say boys?

ricardsju

7th February 2006, 11:29

Intifada

Yes because all Arabs are Muslims...

Even if we were to play the game of race, then saying all Arabs are Muslims wouldn't work, as arabs are just really the eastern semitic people were are the "Jews" are really just the western semitic people.

Provide some evidence for your idiotic percentages, please, otherwise shut up.

Well sorry I can't Provide percentages have a look <here> (http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1967to1991_terrorism_1970s.php), you will see that of the terrorists attacks in Israel in the 70s done by people known to be llinked to the PLO, the group PFLP who are apart of the PLO committed 7 terrorists attacks that 3 or more children or young teenages were killed. Not enough proof the attacks ? just goolge the attactks name.

Anyway, why should a personal belief in a "God" stop one from supporting a struggle for freedom? Either way, the PLO is a secular organisation, and in no way made up of Islamic fundamentalists.

For freedom ? Marxist-Leninism plus religion dosen't equal freedom! i can overlook atheist movements but not both. Most Christians have a some aspects to their fath that could be veiwed as fundamentalists, and its very much the same in Islam. Have you even been to a Islamic country ?

"We know only one word: jihad,jihad, jihad.When we stopped the intifada, we did not stop the jihad for the establishment of a Palestinian state whose capital is Jerusalem. And now we are entering the phase of the great jihad prior to the establishment of an independent Palestinian state whose capital is Jerusalem...We are in a conflict with the Zionist movement and the Balfour Declaration and all imperialist activities." --Yasser Arafat, Chairman of the PLO (During an October 21,1996 speech at the Dehaishe refugee camp)

A call for a jihad in a secular organisation that is not way made up of Islamic fundamentalists! yeah fucking right!

Palestinians voted Hamas for a variety of reasons.

The most important factor in the Hamas election victory was the clear ineptitude of the Fatah government. They failed to give Palestinians what they needed most, and, moreover, Fatah was not exactly free of corruption.

In fact, it was incredibly corrupt.

With Fatah being part of the PLO then that corruption must have crossedover to the rest of the PLO, so the PLO isn't as stainty as said.

The root of the conflict is the illegal occupation.

Therefore, yes, Israel is to blame for the situation we see today.

IF that is the root then anything before the occupation by Israel dosn't count.
Maybe its a major point but not the root, The root is that Palestine has been occupied for over 1800 years by mix of Empires and this last occupation is the last straw for the people of Palestine you really have to think past the last 54 years. If we look at the past and the present we can see that there will have to be big change in the furture as the people of Palestine are geting no where, maybe apart from a new overload of a Empire.

To make peace with Israel is their only hope to get a independent Palestinian state but like the PLO(who is the only party who can help) says:

We plan to eliminate the state of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian state. We will make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion. . . . We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem." --Yasser Arafat, Chairman of the PLO (in front of an Arab audience in Stockholm in 1996)

Hmmm didn't they say something abit different at the Oslo Accords?

The Palestinians are fighting an aggressive and oppressive state.

Israel is continuing an illegal occupation that automatically prevents any hope for peace.

What powful any wealthy state isn't aggressive and oppressive ?
I don't hear you shouting out about kashmir,Catalonia & Basque , Brittany , nepal , Burma/Myanmar and so on...

Israel is pulling out even if it is so slow it looks as if its in a stall. but don't worry, if Israel stops again you may have a occupation by the EU... shit the jesusfreaks will love that one being as thats a biblical prophecy :lol:

youfuckinggoingnowheregreenbludger @ the idiot statement :D
---------------------------
Dee's Nuts

I have never said that I support the small minority of Palestinians who attack civilians
and want to liquidate every Jew. Pointing out that the state of Israel is responsible for leaving these people with few options or expressing sympathy for those who only attack military targets or wage a peaceful struggle for self determination, is hardly support for the murder of Israeli children.

I was asking do you support the Palestinians who support other Palestinians who attack civilians ? Thats what support in proxy is!
I have little care for the Israeli military, even less than I have for the US army, if they all died just right now i coudn't even bother to shout Oh Yeah! (like I did as few years back on 911 when the planes hit the twin towers of the inslavers,the dodgy office workers that were in the twin towers were just as guilty as those in the pentagon)

This is another example of the ignorance that many participating in this discusion seem to have been infected with; can you back up this statement with any eveidenc?

Now don't be a fuckwit and piss around I posted This Link (http://jmcc.org/publicpoll/results/2005/no54.pdf) last post, look at Q2, Q3 Q4 & Q6 plus Q12.2 and Q12.3 (you may want to look at Q12.4 and Q29

(note: Q7 Q8.3 of this (http://www.jmcc.org/publicpoll/results/2005/no55.pdf))

If Palestinian terrorists are more powerful, then why do their countrymen make up the vast majority of victims?

bit hard to suss ? Well the effect of terrorism comes in two parts: carnage(thats the part where people get blown up!) and terror (or fear, thats why its called terrorism! As calling it carnageism is a bit Repugnant for some people,now can yoy say the word Repugnant? :P ) so Rogue-Terrorism comes with far more fear and people become more apprehensive about everyday life and governments can fabricate or enhance and refine that even if in real life it is difffernt such as the Palestinians have more to fear from the carnage of State-Terrorism.

It does not matter what they call themselves. If they believe in god, chances are they are not communists.

You try tell them that... :)

-------------

You free Palestine people are just the same as the free tibet people, abit too much weed i think.

Intifada

7th February 2006, 16:42

(ricardsju)

Even if we were to play the game of race, then saying all Arabs are Muslims wouldn't work, as arabs are just really the eastern semitic people were are the "Jews" are really just the western semitic people.

I wrote Yes, because all Arabs are Muslims (note the sarcasm) in response to your statement that They are pretty much Muslims.

Please, stick to the points at hand.

I already know that Arabs are semites.

Well sorry I can't Provide percentages have a look <here>, you will see that of the terrorists attacks in Israel in the 70s done by people known to be llinked to the PLO, the group PFLP who are apart of the PLO committed 7 terrorists attacks that 3 or more children or young teenages were killed. Not enough proof the attacks ? just goolge the attactks name.

I don't think I ever denied that terrorist acts have been committed by the PLO.

But, yet again, that was not the issue at hand.

I want percentages to back up your claim that 90% of the PLO are Muslims, and 4% are Christians.

For freedom ?

Yes, for freedom from a brutal occupation.

Marxist-Leninism plus religion dosen't equal freedom!

What has Marxism-Leninism got to do with this debate?

The fact is that Palestinians are fighting against an illegal occupation that has seen them suffer for decades.

I support that struggle, and your nonsensical arguments have not done a thing to make me stop supporting that legitimate struggle.

Have you even been to a Islamic country ?

Yes I have been to quite a lot of Islamic countries, such as Pakistan, Egypt, Morocco and Tunisia.

In fact, I am from an Islamic family, although I am not faithful to "God".

By the way, Egypt was the best.

The Egyptians are very friendly.

A call for a jihad in a secular organisation that is not way made up of Islamic fundamentalists! yeah fucking right!

Jihad is not a concept restricted to Islamic fundamentalists.

You are showing your ignorance of Islam now.

The PLO is secular, and contains no Islamist organisations.

With Fatah being part of the PLO then that corruption must have crossedover to the rest of the PLO, so the PLO isn't as stainty as said.

You can make assumptions, but I have never stated that I support the PLO.

Maybe its a major point but not the root, The root is that Palestine has been occupied for over 1800 years by mix of Empires and this last occupation is the last straw for the people of Palestine you really have to think past the last 54 years. If we look at the past and the present we can see that there will have to be big change in the furture as the people of Palestine are geting no where, maybe apart from a new overload of a Empire.

The root of the present conflict is most certainly the illegal occupation of Palestinian land by Israel. The history does play a part, but it is not the root of the present conflict.

Palestinians are fighting for an independent state, consisting of the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem. In other words, they seek to build their state upon the land illegally occupied by Israel since 1967. The present conflict is about that illegal occupation alone. Once that illegal occupation is put to an end, the Palestinians will be able to create their independent state, with Israel alongside it.

Since 1988, the Palestinians have accepted Israel's right to exist, yet the Israelis still refuse to recognise that any hopes of peace rests upon the Israeli occupation of Palestinian land. That is why the conflict continues to this day, and it will continue until Israel abides by international law and human rights.

To make peace with Israel is their only hope to get a independent Palestinian state but like the PLO(who is the only party who can help) says:

The Palestinians have tried negotiations with Israel.

They have failed because of Israel's refusal to recognise the illegality of their occupation, which has created nothing but misery for Palestinians, from which only extremists benefit.

Oslo, something you mention, is a perfect example of this.

Hmmm didn't they say something abit different at the Oslo Accords?

For the record, I must state that I am (or was) not a supporter of Arafat.

He is now of course dead, anyway.

The Oslo experience was one that obliged Palestinians to make peace with Israel while the illegal and unjust occupation continued. The PLO accepted this, and signed interim agreements that underlined their intention to live alongside an Israeli state. The Palestinian Authority invested in major attempts to halt the rise of Hamas, following their suicid attacks of 1995 and 1996, which were triggered by the Hebron massacre of Palestinian Muslims. According to Israeli reports, most o Hamas' military wing was eliminated. Islamic findamentalists were imprisoned, and the PA severely weakened the organisational abilities of Islamist groups.

However, the Israelis did not give Palestinians the freedom from occupation they desired. Instead, they stepped up the illegal control of the West Bank by encircling Palestinians with settlements that were reinforced by bypass roads only Israelis could use, that were built on stolen Palestinian land. These Israeli roads cut through Palestinian territories in all directions.

In other words, while the Palestinian leadership tried their best to halt Palestinian terrorist activities, the Israelis maintained their illegal occupation.

It is ironic that in the same week that apartheid was being dismantled in South Africa (in the beginning of May 1994) Israel began buildng a new system of apartheid in Palestine, with the signing of the Gaza-Jericho First Agreement.

While de Klerk's white government ceased all land acquisitions during the three year talks with Mandela's ANC, the Israelis, under Rabin, allowed the illegal system of settlements to continue, as if Oslo never happened.

A good analysis of the Oslo Accords has been written by Marwan Bishara. The book is called Palestine/Israel: Peace or Apartheid (Occupation, Terrorism and the Future.

What powful any wealthy state isn't aggressive and oppressive ?

None.

I don't hear you shouting out about kashmir,Catalonia & Basque , Brittany , nepal , Burma/Myanmar and so on...

Trust me, I try my best to work against all injustices.

This debate is about Palestine, however.

Israel is pulling out even if it is so slow it looks as if its in a stall

The Gaza pullout was, simply put, a ruse on Sharon's part.

Sharon may be a racist bastard, but he is (or should I say was) not an idiot.

The Gaza Strip was of no worth to Israel. Sharon realised this and has put full focus upon Israeli annexation of more territory in the West Bank, a water-rich and much more vast area that is essential to the realisation of a viable Palestinian state.

Israeli actions and plans for the West Bank support this fact.

The Gaza pullout allowed for the indefinite postponement of final status negotiations with the Palestinians, regarding illegal settlements, the borders and East Jerusalem, as outlined under the Oslo Accord and the US-sponsored "Road Map".

Sharon's most senior adviser - Dov Weisglass - is on record as saying:

The significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process, and when you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem.

The illusion in the West (as well as the state of Israel itself) that disengagement will be the beginning of the "end of occupation" is a complete fantasy. Instead, Israel will continue to ethnically cleanse the West Bank of its indigenous inhabitants, seize even more land and continue to construct the apartheid wall.

Ariel Sharon did once say:

A lie should be tried in a place where it will attract the attention of the world

Intifada

7th February 2006, 16:45

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 6 2006, 11:15 PM
I'm not a mod any longer sonny boy.
Perhaps you should be given warning points then.

I'll leave it for now, though.

Somebody did mention your "behaviour" in the mod forum.

Anyway, out of every user that has participated in this thread, you are perhaps the one that has offered the least amount of constructive debate.

Vinny Rafarino

7th February 2006, 17:44

Originally posted by Intifada+Feb 7 2006, 10:10 AM--> (Intifada @ Feb 7 2006, 10:10 AM)
Comrade [email protected] 6 2006, 11:15 PM
I'm not a mod any longer sonny boy.
Perhaps you should be given warning points then.

I'll leave it for now, though.

Somebody did mention your "behaviour" in the mod forum.

Anyway, out of every user that has participated in this thread, you are perhaps the one that has offered the least amount of constructive debate. [/b]
You're so full of it. Issuing "warning" points for posting links to psychiatric hospitals.

Goog grief son, those kids need help.

Threaten me with "warning points" all you wan't; we'll see how well you're reason behind it stands up.

Tell you what son, go right ahead and do it; it will only serve to prove that you are still too immature to handle such a tiny responsibility as being a moderator on an internet.

If you can't even keep yourself from issuing warning points just because you disagree with someone than what can you be trusted with?

Nothing.

It's all the same rant with you kids, show them the folly of their ways and they immediately react with adolescent aggression and absurd accusations.

You're not fooling anyone kiddo; you ideology just the Palestinian movement is ridiculously comical.

amanondeathrow

7th February 2006, 21:51

ricardsju

I was asking do you support the Palestinians who support other Palestinians who attack civilians ? Thats what support in proxy is!
I may not support terrorism, but that does not mean that I cannot support those who may have voiced support for such actions, when they are left with few other options.

I have little care for the Israeli military, even less than I have for the US army, if they all died just right now i coudn't even bother to shout Oh Yeah!
Then what is your problem with Palestinian resistence?

Now don't be a fuckwit and piss around I posted This Link last post, look at Q2, Q3 Q4 & Q6 plus Q12.2 and Q12.3 (you may want to look at Q12.4 and Q29
This link provides no statistics which prove that the majority of Palestinians would support an Islamic state. In fact most of the stats are in support of the opposite.

Well the effect of terrorism comes in two parts: carnage(thats the part where people get blown up!) and terror (or fear, thats why its called terrorism!
How does Israeli terrorism not produce more fear when it is responsible for the majority of the deaths? I do not understand how you can come to this conclusion.

You free Palestine people are just the same as the free tibet people, abit too much weed i think.
Absolutely not. The Free Tibet movement is based on mythology and an ignorant understanding of history, while the Palestinian liberation movement is based in logic and historical fact. Please change your signature.

Intifada

7th February 2006, 22:10

You're so full of it. Issuing "warning" points for posting links to psychiatric hospitals.

Goog grief son, those kids need help.

Threaten me with "warning points" all you wan't; we'll see how well you're reason behind it stands up.

Tell you what son, go right ahead and do it; it will only serve to prove that you are still too immature to handle such a tiny responsibility as being a moderator on an internet.

If you can't even keep yourself from issuing warning points just because you disagree with someone than what can you be trusted with?

Note the "perhaps" part of my statement.

I'm not going to give you warning points, I hardly ever do issue them anyway.

Vinny Rafarino

7th February 2006, 23:06

Originally posted by intifada
I'm not going to give you warning points, I hardly ever do issue them anyway.

Of course you're not jack, you would hate to have to explain yourself for that move.

Now that you know that I am not afraid of your "Mod powers" sonny-boy, perhaps you can now get back to explaining to all the leftists here why exactly you support the use of religious fundamentalist terrorism in order to bring to power a new governmental body led by fanatical Muslim clerics.

Free Palestine

7th February 2006, 23:33

This is not about politics between Jews and Muslims. It is about occupier and occupied. It is a case of human freedom and human dignity, human freedom and justice which the Palestinians are struggling for against an oppressor.

Vinny Rafarino

7th February 2006, 23:45

Originally posted by Free [email protected] 7 2006, 04:58 PM
This is not about politics between Jews and Muslims. It is about occupier and occupied.
Unfortunately your viewpoint doesn't mean merde in the face of 3000 years of tradition.

For every fool that has blown himself to pieces, it's simply been about Allah.

Get over it.

Free Palestine

8th February 2006, 00:11

Originally posted by Comrade RAF
For every fool that has blown himself to pieces, it's simply been about Allah.

Yeah, it's like the Palestinians are living in complete freedom without an ounce of oppression, and for no reason at all other than "Allah" the suicide bombers began to strike. It's like for over 50 years the Palestinians haven't been living under the gun, dispossessed, massacred, humiliated, and oppressed. :rolleyes:

Vinny Rafarino

8th February 2006, 00:21

Originally posted by Free [email protected] 7 2006, 05:36 PM
Yeah, it's like the Palestinians are living in complete freedom without an ounce of oppression, and for no reason at all other than "Allah" the suicide bombers began to strike. It's like for over 50 years the Palestinians haven't been living under the gun, dispossessed, massacred, humiliated, and oppressed. :rolleyes:
Once again your historical ignorance surfaces.

How do you think the Jewish Palestinians lived under the Muslim rule Palestine before and during the Ottomans?

Let me tell you again: under the gun, dispossessed, massacred, humiliated, and oppressed.

Only theirs lasted for centuries.

You're clueless.

Free Palestine

8th February 2006, 00:59

Actually, Palestine has a long tradition of coexistence and tolerance prior to 1948. You honestly have no idea what you're talking about. Every single word in your post gives proof to this. Your last post alone just boggles me, as it is an example of the kind of obdurate stupidity that makes further discussion rather pointless.

amanondeathrow

8th February 2006, 01:16

How do you think the Jewish Palestinians lived under the Muslim rule Palestine before and during the Ottomans?
You are correct; Palestinians have a history of being oppressed.

But that does not justify the current occupation, by any means. Especially considering that the Israeli military has unleashed so much terror in a fraction of the time available to the Ottomans or the British.

Should this not be more reason for Palestinians to be given the chance to control their futures?

Or is it because they do not subscribe to your specific ideology, making them not worth your time?

Vinny Rafarino

8th February 2006, 01:55

Originally posted by nuts
Or is it because they do not subscribe to your specific ideology, making them not worth your time?

To be precise, it's because they do subscribe to a specific ideology that makes them not worth my time.

amanondeathrow

8th February 2006, 02:03

To be precise, it's because they do subscribe to a specific ideology that makes them not worth my time.
That is an ignorant generalization.

As I have said many times before, the majority of Palestinians are not fundamentalist Muslims. In fact Palestine is known as one of the most secular regions of the middle east.

It is only in the most recent years that Palestinians have began to give their support to groups like Hamas and only because they have become fed up with both the corruption of Fattah and the constant attacks from Israel.

The average Palestinian, who never did anything to harm Israeli civilians, cannot be blamed for the ideological mistakes of others, who happen to have the same skin tone.

Palestinians deserve the right to self determination and that cannot be denied because of the actions of a few and the desperation of a people under constant assault.

Vinny Rafarino

8th February 2006, 02:50

Originally posted by nuts
Palestinians deserve the right to self determination

And it appears that in the event they win, they will "self determine" themselves right back into the middle ages.

When that happens you can expect all of your secular Palestinians to run for the hills.

Intifada

8th February 2006, 09:50

(RAF)

Now that you know that I am not afraid of your "Mod powers" sonny-boy

Get over yourself.

perhaps you can now get back to explaining to all the leftists here why exactly you support the use of religious fundamentalist terrorism in order to bring to power a new governmental body led by fanatical Muslim clerics.

Perhaps you would like to provide the board with evidence of my supposed support for such fanatics?

Oh yeah, that's right, you can't.

Clueless fool.

Atlas Swallowed

8th February 2006, 12:33

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 8 2006, 12:46 AM
How do you think the Jewish Palestinians lived under the Muslim rule Palestine before and during the Ottomans?

Let me tell you again: under the gun, dispossessed, massacred, humiliated, and oppressed.

Daughter, how many times do I have to tell you that when you talk out of your ass all that comes out is shit.

Palestine under the Ottomans was quite different than under Israel.

http://www.jerusalemites.org/jerusalem/ottoman/index.htm

Read very slowly and repeatedly and you may grasp it, my little girl. Probably not but try anyway.

Vinny Rafarino

8th February 2006, 16:19

Originally posted by Atlas Swallowed+Feb 8 2006, 05:58 AM--> (Atlas Swallowed @ Feb 8 2006, 05:58 AM) Daughter, how many times do I have to tell you that when you talk out of your ass all that comes out is shit.

Palestine under the Ottomans was quite different than under Israel.

http://www.jerusalemites.org/jerusalem/ottoman/index.htm

Read very slowly and repeatedly and you may grasp it, my little girl. Probably not but try anyway. [/b]
Why are you referring to my as "daughter" and "little girl"?

You know very well that I am a man.

Are you suggesting that for some reason I will be offended by being referred to as a female? Since you are obviously attempting to offend me then you must think that being considered female is somehow "bad enough" that it is actually a severe insult.

Sexist dickhead.

Now, on to your pedomorphic post:

Since your level of reading comprehension leaves something to be desired, I will re-post (once again) what you are so ignorantly commenting on, with added bold type to assist your "brain":

RAF
How do you think the Jewish Palestinians lived under the Muslim rule Palestine before and during the Ottomans?

Prior to Ottoman rule of the region, there were many muslim "empires" that ruled the area. The Umayyad Empire (661-750) actuallt went to far as to destroy one of Judaism's most sacred temples in order to build a mosque (dome of the rock).

I won't bother to go into any of the othe Muslim empires that pre-date the Ottomans; I fear it will just be too many words for you.

Now, since you missed the first lesson son I will tell you again: Up until 1566 (Ottoman reign of Sultan Suleiman) life for Jewish hebrews was shit. They were routinely slaughtered.

That's life in the old Middle east, Boy.

ricardsju

8th February 2006, 17:03

Intifada

I wrote Yes, because all Arabs are Muslims (note the sarcasm) in response to your statement that They are pretty much Muslims.

Please, stick to the points at hand.

I already know that Arabs are semites.

I don't think I ever denied that terrorist acts have been committed by the PLO.

But, yet again, that was not the issue at hand.

I want percentages to back up your claim that 90% of the PLO are Muslims, and 4% are Christians.

I am sorry but I was tired (some people have to do real work and i.e don't just repack goods for the US market that are made overseas) and thought you where wanting proof that the PLO killed a large percentage of childern in the 70s, again I was tired.

But anyway that was a self observation by comparing quotes made by the members of the PLO and comparing religious information of major members, thats why it was separated from the rest of the post. If I was wrong in my observation then can you list the other major religions "Arabs" follow apart from Islam ?
(note: Christianity, Bahá'ísm, Judaism , Zoroastrianism and other Gnosticist religions are far too small with less than 1% all apart from Christianity and Judaism.)

For freedom ?

Yes, for freedom from a brutal occupation.

Marxist-Leninism plus religion dosen't equal freedom!

What has Marxism-Leninism got to do with this debate?

The fact is that Palestinians are fighting against an illegal occupation that has seen them suffer for decades.

I support that struggle, and your nonsensical arguments have not done a thing to make me stop supporting that legitimate struggle.

Marxism-Leninism has got something to do with the PLO.
and I don't think they are as secular as calmed

whats the point of me fully supporting them in their struggle against their oppression by the Jewish government when by all likeyhood this freedom is going turn out to be a dictatorship by some nutjob? Iran was also secular that didn't stop the fun there from starting.

And I am not trying to change your veiw, I am questioning why you feel so strongly and passionality about it surpassing other legitimate struggles, plus also why do I have to fully support it ? thinking about it now(I've had to rewitre this all after firefox crashed) I do sympathise with them on some level but I still think its hopeless(new dawn, new ruler).

Yes I have been to quite a lot of Islamic countries, such as Pakistan, Egypt, Morocco and Tunisia.

In fact, I am from an Islamic family, although I am not faithful to "God".

By the way, Egypt was the best.

The Egyptians are very friendly.
I was wonder about that, and being `not faithful to "god" ' sounds a bit agnostic.

If they are just the Islamic countries you have been to that you are very well traveled, exceedingly so for a proletariat!

Jihad is not a concept restricted to Islamic fundamentalists.

You are showing your ignorance of Islam now.

The PLO is secular, and contains no Islamist organisations.
From what I understand its means "holy struggle", "righteous struggle" or "holy endeavour", if it means something else you need to add a word say I.E "jihad bil lisan", the british word that would best fit would still be "crusade".
There were strong liberal, secularist, Marxist, and anarchist factions in the iran Revolution but look where that got them,but right where they wanted. Oh also Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades and the Black September group call them self part of Fatah and also they do suicide bombings and well suicide bombings are something only Islamic fundamentalist ever do.

You can make assumptions, but I have never stated that I support the PLO.
crafty, but what the difference beteewn support and defending ?

Since 1988, the Palestinians have accepted Israel's right to exist,
where is the proof that the normal Palestinians have accepted Israel's right to exist?

The Palestinians have tried negotiations with Israel.

They have failed because of Israel's refusal to recognise the illegality of their occupation, which has created nothing but misery for Palestinians, from which only extremists benefit.

Oslo, something you mention, is a perfect example of this.
How is it illegal ? under the geneva convention ? international Court of Justice ?
(It is wrong but it dosn't make it illegal)

For the record, I must state that I am (or was) not a supporter of Arafat.

He is now of course dead, anyway.

who do you support ? Mahmoud Abbas the nazi suppporter ?

In other words, while the Palestinian leadership tried their best to halt Palestinian terrorist activities
where is the proof that they tried ?

Trust me, I try my best to work against all injustices.

This debate is about Palestine, however.
Thats nice to hear. I know this is about Palestine, I am just wondering why the other countrys are not talked about. I Know it is important to talk about Palestine, but I think a major point that is blocking any international encouragement to put pressure on Israel is not wanting to have anything to do(not to support via proxy) with the use of suicide bombings even when used only on Israels army(do you support that?), if it was plan old normal guerrilla fighting there would be far more support.

Where can i read more about what what they are doing in the West Bank?

Also is the wall far more of a wall for segregation, than a border wall ?

---------------------

Dee's Nuts

first I would like to ask you do you support suicide bombings when used only on Israels army ?

I may not support terrorism, but that does not mean that I cannot support those who may have voiced support for such actions, when they are left with few other options.

can you state what options they have alrealy tried that dosen't end with them killing a helpless child ?

Then what is your problem with Palestinian resistence?

Its the way they go about it.

So you will continue to support these oppressed people no matter how barbaric and despicable their deeds are in their freedom fighting against the diabolical acts of "the jew".
It is not every Palestinian civilian who is involved in attacks on Israeli civilians, in fact the vast majority are victims not attackers.
Yes the vast majority of Palestinian civilians are not attackers(who use terror) but they are supporters of the use of terror outright or via proxy.
This is another example of the ignorance that many participating in this discusion seem to have been infected with; can you back up this statement with any eveidenc?
Now don't be a fuckwit and piss around I posted This Link last post, look at Q2, Q3 Q4 & Q6 plus Q12.2 and Q12.3 (you may want to look at Q12.4 and Q29
This link provides no statistics which prove that the majority of Palestinians would support an Islamic state. In fact most of the stats are in support of the opposite.

I wasn't trying to prove that the majority of Palestinians would support an Islamic state there, as if you look at Q7 support(for a Islamic state) is only at 3.1 and 7.8 for a only a Palestinian state.

How does Israeli terrorism not produce more fear when it is responsible for the majority of the deaths? I do not understand how you can come to this conclusion.

Have you heard of spin docters?
As you know the US government has used State-Terrorism to attack many a country around the world and it often killed far more than 3000 people in one go in some really sick ways.
But hey whats this plane doing flying around NY? OH MY! it just hit one of the twin towers.... (lets forget that the US government may or may not have been in one the whole thing) .... OMG another one its like Perl Harbour™.
Scare tactics is a very powful tool that many countrys use, all you have to do is enhance the fear in the country more than it would normaily be a after a Terrorist act. Its important to tell the people it could happen any time right now and just point the finger at some unlikey person with land, money and oil and you country will support you no matter what(if your not a fucking monkey, but maybe thats why he is still in... that yanks relate to him).

Do you really think that the world media is all in on the zion fun ? The western leaders don't really care about Israel! They are just useing them(Palestine/Israel) to make the west to be more fearful so they give more rights away to their government.

---------------------

Absolutely not. The Free Tibet movement is based on mythology and an ignorant understanding of history, while the Palestinian liberation movement is based in logic and historical fact. Please change your signature.

well I have changed my veiw (Palestine - I now sympathise but am neural/Israel - hostile) a little bit while rewriteing this(firefox crashed) from something Intifada said & I can't as I don't have a signature.

--------------------- It just this line
~~~~~~~~~~~~
________________

so fucking tired

Atlas Swallowed

8th February 2006, 20:10

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 8 2006, 04:44 PM

Why are you referring to my as "daughter" and "little girl"?

You know very well that I am a man.

It is a joke refering to your idiotic way of calling everyone son. Know your a man, I do not if reading your posts is all I have to go on I would say you are about a 12 year old boy.

Was it the Palestinians that invaded Palestine and made life hell for the Jews? Lets see um, no. Nobody here is defending any of the invaders which by the way is what the Israelis are. Just the next invader of a land that has frequently been invadaed.

The Jews in Moslem lands were treated far better than they were in Europe and better than Israel treats the Palestinians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_th...in_Muslim_Lands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Muslim_Lands)

You stated that life was hell for the Jews during the Ottoman empire. You were proven wrong.

You can throw around all the insults you like but it does not change the fact that your arguements hold no water.

boosh logic

8th February 2006, 20:41

Are the Jews really invaders though, as Israel was created by the League of Nations (or similar) in 1948 as a refuge for the European Jews, which is hardly an invasion. Maybe the consequences may feel like an invasion for the Palestinians, but it's not like Jews from different countries just took up arms and fought them.

amanondeathrow

8th February 2006, 22:46

ricardsju

Iran was also secular that didn't stop the fun there from starting.
The Shaw may have been secular, but he did not rule over a government any less oppressive.

Before the Shaw was catapulted back into power by the US, Iran had a democratically elected secular government.

It was US imperialism which eventually pushed the Iranian people to the right and left them with few options.

The same goes for Palestine, which is only embracing radical Islam because of a lack of other options.

If action is not taken sooner, then Palestine may end up like Iran.

If I was wrong in my observation then can you list the other major religions "Arabs" follow apart from Islam ?
The burdon of proof rests with you.

If you cannot defend your statements, please don't make them.

Oh also Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades and the Black September group call them self part of Fatah and also they do suicide bombings and well suicide bombings are something only Islamic fundamentalist ever do.
It may be more common for Islamic terrorists to suicide bomb, but the tactic is not restricted to them.

Actually groups secular groups like the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam, a secular and mostly Hindu organization, are known for carrying out suicide bombings.

Since you do not usually provide evidence, I thought I would make an example and find some; "The analyst says that while the occurrence of suicide attacks is not widespread in the West, it would be wrong to assume it is problem that is confined to the Middle East. He notes that the secular rebel group Tamil Tigers uses suicide attacks on a regular basis in Sri Lanka.(Iraq: Suicide Bombers Sow Death And Fear (http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2005/05/756ff926-5c3e-4490-be85-ae5f5b914b51.html))"

where is the proof that the normal Palestinians have accepted Israel's right to exist?
"A survey conducted within days of the Islamist group's landslide win in the parliamentary election showed 84 percent of Palestinians want a negotiated peace agreement with Israel.Despite Hamas win, Palestinians want peace with Israel (http://www.palestinecampaign.org/news.asp?d=y&id=1576)"

How is it illegal ? under the geneva convention ? international Court of Justice ?
(It is wrong but it dosn't make it illegal)
The official legality of the occupation does not really matter, considering its status is in the hands of those partially responsible for it.

However, regardless of how much it actually matters, international law is on our side (ISRAEL'S ILLEGAL OCCUPATION (http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/2411.htm))

who do you support ? Mahmoud Abbas the nazi suppporter ?
If he did not support Arafat, logic would lead one to beleive he would not support his successor.

But some people in this discussion are not guided by logic.

can you state what options they have alrealy tried that dosen't end with them killing a helpless child ?
How about peaceful protest, maybe?

It is hard to protest peacefully, however, when your enemy has the backing of the most powerful nation and is killing your children left and right.

Only a small number of those actively involved in resistance actually attack civilians or even soldiers for that matter.

When Palestinians hold a peaceful demonstration, you do not see it on CNN.

Only when civilians are killed are we allowed to see how the Palestinans resist and illegal occupation.

Its the way they go about it.
Again, the majority do not commit terrorist attacks in the name of "Allah".

If you disagree then find some evidence, seeing as the burden rests on your shoulders.

I wasn't trying to prove that the majority of Palestinians would support an Islamic state there, as if you look at Q7 support(for a Islamic state) is only at 3.1 and 7.8 for a only a Palestinian state.
So what the hell were you trying to prove?

Do you really think that the world media is all in on the zion fun ? The western leaders don't really care about Israel! They are just useing them(Palestine/Israel) to make the west to be more fearful so they give more rights away to their government.
This does not mean that state terrorism is not more harmful to the Palestinian people then rough is to the Israelis.

Regardless of which is printed in the newspaper, Israeli terrorism poses the greater threat.

I doubt you can prove different.

well I have changed my veiw (Palestine - I now sympathise but am neural/Israel - hostile) a little bit while rewriteing this(firefox crashed) from something Intifada said & I can't as I don't have a signature.
I am glad to hear that you are reconsidering your view. That is the purpose of organized discussion.

I am also glad that outrageous statement is no longer your signature. Please keep it that way.

boosh logic

Are the Jews really invaders though, as Israel was created by the League of Nations (or similar) in 1948 as a refuge for the European Jews, which is hardly an invasion. Maybe the consequences may feel like an invasion for the Palestinians, but it's not like Jews from different countries just took up arms and fought them.
Israel did literally take up arms when they invaded the occupied territories.

If that is not an invasion, then I don't know what is.

Vinny Rafarino

8th February 2006, 23:29

Originally posted by Swallowed+--> (Swallowed)You stated that life was hell for the Jews during the Ottoman empire. You were proven wrong. [/b]

I must have used too many words in my last post, I'll shorten this one up son.

Original post:

RAF
How do you think the Jewish Palestinians lived under the Muslim rule Palestine before and during the Ottomans?

Life under the pre-Ottoman empires was shit for the Jews.

Life under the Ottoman empire prior to Sultan Suleiman was shit for the Jews.

Don't like the facts?

Tough!

t is a joke refering to your idiotic way of calling everyone son. Know your a man, I do not if reading your posts is all I have to go on I would say you are about a 12 year old boy.

I am probably old enough to be your father; considering what I have seen.

As a matter of fact, depending on where you were born, that could be a definite possibility! :lol:

amanondeathrow

9th February 2006, 00:54

Life under the pre-Ottoman empires was shit for the Jews.

Life under the Ottoman empire prior to Sultan Suleiman was shit for the Jews.

Don't like the facts?

Tough!
Does that so how make the Palestinian situation any less compelling?

Vinny Rafarino

9th February 2006, 01:15

Originally posted by Dee's [email protected] 8 2006, 06:19 PM
Does that so how make the Palestinian situation any less compelling?
This situation in Palestine does not "compel" me to do anything.

Beyond babble about it on an Internet forum that is.

amanondeathrow

9th February 2006, 01:36

This situation in Palestine does not "compel" me to do anything.
What you do or don't do to help the Palestinian people is not what is at question.

I was arguing that Palestinians of today cannot be blamed for the crimes committed hundreds of yeas ago. Especially when they are suffering so much today.

How can you say other wise, putting aside the fact that a small minority of Palestinians are Islamic fundamentalists?

Vinny Rafarino

9th February 2006, 03:54

Originally posted by Dee's
How can you say other wise, putting aside the fact that a small minority of Palestinians are Islamic fundamentalists?

I say otherwise because I, like any rational person, do not believe that Islamic fundamentalists in Palestine are a "small minority"; especially considering the new "governmental body".

Islam controls every aspect of life in the Middle East and North Africa and will continue to do so long into the future.

I've witnessed it first hand in when I lived in Rabat and while visiting Egypt.

The sad part is that neither of these locations are even considered to be in the "hotbed" of Islamic fundamentalism yet Islam continues to keep the masses there in a stranglehold of primative superstition and violence.

They are simply not ready to abandon their primative traditions...yet.

ricardsju

9th February 2006, 08:59

Dee's Nuts
weird to see you pick up questions not aimed at yourself.

The Shaw may have been secular, but he did not rule over a government any less oppressive.

Before the Shaw was catapulted back into power by the US, Iran had a democratically elected secular government.

It was US imperialism which eventually pushed the Iranian people to the right and left them with few options.

The same goes for Palestine, which is only embracing radical Islam because of a lack of other options.

If action is not taken sooner, then Palestine may end up like Iran.

What would that action be?

The burdon of proof rests with you.

If you cannot defend your statements, please don't make them.

Observations are ones perspective on a situation how ever skewed and far they may be.

The closest thing I can get is:
The WE is: Muslim 75% (predominantly Sunni), Jewish 17%, Christian and other 8%
& GZ is : Muslim (predominantly Sunni) 98.7%, Christian 0.7%, Jewish 0.6%,
other can be Bahá'í, Druze, & Zoroastrianism.
(CIA fact book)

It may be more common for Islamic terrorists to suicide bomb, but the tactic is not restricted to them.

Actually groups secular groups like the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam, a secular and mostly Hindu organization, are known for carrying out suicide bombings.

Since you do not usually provide evidence, I thought I would make an example and find some; "The analyst says that while the occurrence of suicide attacks is not widespread in the West, it would be wrong to assume it is problem that is confined to the Middle East. He notes that the secular rebel group Tamil Tigers uses suicide attacks on a regular basis in Sri Lanka.(Iraq: Suicide Bombers Sow Death And Fear)"

Islamic terrorists are not just in the Middle East as you know, yes I know they are mosty Hindu but they where working with the Muslims for a long time before their little falling out.

"A survey conducted within days of the Islamist group's landslide win in the parliamentary election showed 84 percent of Palestinians want a negotiated peace agreement with Israel.Despite Hamas win, Palestinians want peace with Israel"

That is good to hear.

The official legality of the occupation does not really matter, considering its status is in the hands of those partially responsible for it.

However, regardless of how much it actually matters, international law is on our side (ISRAEL'S ILLEGAL OCCUPATION)

Is Israel and Palestine committed to follow international law? No, they(ILC) have no Jurisdiction, that link showed that its "morally bankrupt" and it would be a illegal if international law was followed.

If he did not support Arafat, logic would lead one to beleive he would not support his successor.

But some people in this discussion are not guided by logic.

It was a honest question followed by a sarcastic question.

How about peaceful protest, maybe?

It is hard to protest peacefully, however, when your enemy has the backing of the most powerful nation and is killing your children left and right.

Only a small number of those actively involved in resistance actually attack civilians or even soldiers for that matter.

When Palestinians hold a peaceful demonstration, you do not see it on CNN.

Only when civilians are killed are we allowed to see how the Palestinans resist and illegal occupation.

Death rate WE 3.99 deaths/1,000 population (2005 est.)
GZ 3.87 deaths/1,000 population (2005 est.) (CIA fact book)

Thats low, and I don't think their are ninja jews killing children at every turn.

CNN ? no I watch foxnews.

(sarcasm)

Again, the majority do not commit terrorist attacks in the name of "Allah".

If you disagree then find some evidence, seeing as the burden rests on your shoulders.

No its the suicide bombing part again.

So what the hell were you trying to prove?
That there are alot of supporters of the use of terror outright or via proxy on Israeli civilians and that had nothing to do with a Islamic state.

Regardless of which is printed in the newspaper, Israeli terrorism poses the greater threat. I agree, Israeli terrorism poses the greater physical threat.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am also glad that outrageous statement is no longer your signature. Please keep it that way. I never have had a signature.

Atlas Swallowed

9th February 2006, 10:12

Originally posted by Comrade RAF+Feb 8 2006, 11:54 PM--> (Comrade RAF @ Feb 8 2006, 11:54 PM)

I must have used too many words in my last post, I'll shorten this one up son.

Original post:

RAF
How do you think the Jewish Palestinians lived under the Muslim rule Palestine before and during the Ottomans?

Life under the pre-Ottoman empires was shit for the Jews.

Life under the Ottoman empire prior to Sultan Suleiman was shit for the Jews.

Don't like the facts?

Tough [/b]
As usual you provide no evidence you just spout out of your ass how you are right with nothing to back it up.

You are the one who has trouble with words or maybe you do not know that the words with the lines under them are links. Take your mouse click on them and you will be taken to another page.

You changed up on what you have said from life under The Ottomans was total shit to life under the Ottomans until Sultan Suliman was shit. Maybe you are starting to learn something after all, or just relized how obviously full of shit the prior post was.

Thier are no facts to like or dislike coming from you. You provide none, all you provide is your half assed opinion.

I am 35 born in Newton NJ, I resemble my father whom you are not, besides you can not impregnate anyone just by thinking about them while masturbating.

Vinny Rafarino

9th February 2006, 17:05

You changed up on what you have said from life under The Ottomans was total shit to life under the Ottomans until Sultan Suliman was shit. Maybe you are starting to learn something after all, or just relized how obviously full of shit the prior post was.

I brought up the Sultan near a week ago.

I'm sorry if your reading comprehension is lacking. Don't blame youself honey, the schools in Jersey leave a bit to be desired.

I am 35 born in Newton NJ, I resemble my father whom you are not, besides you can not impregnate anyone just by thinking about them while masturbating.

35 huh, could have fooled me. :lol:

Since I only got three years on ya boy, It appears that you are correct.

I did however spend many years in Bensonhurst.

Got any sisters? :lol:

Vinny Rafarino

9th February 2006, 17:31

For my dear boy Atlas:

It appears that adding to much information to my posts has a tendency to confuse you so I will start fresh.

1) Sultan Suleiman was a sultan during the Ottoman Empire.

2) here is my original post from the Palestine and Isreali's and Hamas thread:

Originally posted by Comrade RAF Posted on: Feb 5 2006+ 10:51 AM--> (Comrade RAF Posted on: Feb 5 2006 @ 10:51 AM)The rise of the Ottoman Empire in the late 13th century made Islam the dominant religion of the area.

Do you think the Jews and the Christians just "kept their mouths shut"?

Prior to Sultan Suleiman in around 1520, life for the Jews was pretty much shit.

Since you don't know shit about history I will also remind you that Palestine was under complete Arab rule from around 636 and lasted until the early 12th century.

During this period Muslim and Jewish "peace" was nothing more than a pipedream. As a matter of fact, Jewish and Muslim fighting was probably at it's worst during this period; especially considering that the Muslims completely obliterated of Judeas most sacred temples in order to erect the "Dome of the Rock".
[/b]

Next, from this thread:

Originally posted by Comrade RAF Posted on: Feb 8 [email protected] 09:44 AM
Prior to Ottoman rule of the region, there were many muslim "empires" that ruled the area. The Umayyad Empire (661-750) actuallt went to far as to destroy one of Judaism's most sacred temples in order to build a mosque (dome of the rock).

I won't bother to go into any of the othe Muslim empires that pre-date the Ottomans; I fear it will just be too many words for you.

Now, since you missed the first lesson son I will tell you again: Up until 1566 (Ottoman reign of Sultan Suleiman) life for Jewish hebrews was shit. They were routinely slaughtered.

That's life in the old Middle east, Boy.

One more time:

Comrade RAF Posted on: Feb 8 [email protected] 04:54 PM
Life under the pre-Ottoman empires was shit for the Jews.

Life under the Ottoman empire prior to Sultan Suleiman was shit for the Jews.

Don't like the facts?

Tough!

I certainly hope my efforts aid in your learning of this material.

Feel free to PM for further instruction if if you require more assistance but are embarrassed to ask in front of the forum members.

Peer pressure and ridicule can be devastating to a young man's psyche. :lol:

Atlas Swallowed

9th February 2006, 18:28

Gee, I missed one of your posts, so sorry one can only take so much the ramblings of idiot. You still have not provided any evidence that the situation for the Jews in Palestine before and during the Ottoman empire was as repressive as it for the Palestinians today even though it is irrelevant because none of us own a time machine and can not effect the past if we wanted to. The only evidence you have provided is the destruction of a temple. Pretty bad evidence for an atheist. The Jews destroyed the temple to Baal to build thiers big deal its a fucking building. Here is something from the present that shows the total hypocrisy of Israel.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle...ticle344233.ece (http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article344233.ece)

The point is we support the Palestinian peoples struggle against the Israeli occupation and your ramblings and insults will not change that.

Ass wad I have not been in highschool since 1989 and I did not give a fuck about peer pressure then. We are not all highschoolers here(which is not a bad thing being a highschooler concidering they are not suffer from Alzheimers as you are grandpa) take your head out of your ass and get some air.

Vinny Rafarino

9th February 2006, 18:33

Originally posted by Reactionism Swallowed
The point is we support the Palestinian peoples struggle against the Israeli occupation and your ramblings and insults will not change that.

I suppose without reactionay people, reactionary movements would not even exist.

Good job honey-buns.

Ass wad I have not been in highschool since 1989 and I did not give a fuck about peer pressure then.

Ass wad? :lol:

How cute!

Atlas Swallowed

9th February 2006, 18:39

If supporting those that are oppressed is what you concider reactionary, then call me reactionary since I am not a Communist it is not very insulting anyway.

As usual you add nothing to the discussion but insults. Your arguements can not be supported by facts and are as empty as the space between your ears.

Vinny Rafarino

9th February 2006, 19:01

Originally posted by Atlas [email protected] 9 2006, 12:04 PM
As usual you add nothing to the discussion but insults.
Considering your support for reactionism and your level of reading comprehension, it does not shock me that you of all people would accuse me of "nothing but insults".

One has to only read your posts to see beyond your lies.

Intifada

9th February 2006, 19:44

(ricardsju)

If I was wrong in my observation then can you list the other major religions "Arabs" follow apart from Islam ?

I am not interested in the religious make-up of the OPTs, as it does not have any bearing on the fact that the conflict is about land. Religion, in this case Islam and Judaism, is only used to justify the idiotic attacks by parts of each side of the conflict.

I'm sure you could find such information for yourself.

The main issue, however, is the Palestinian land that Israel is illegally occupying.

whats the point of me fully supporting them in their struggle against their oppression by the Jewish government when by all likeyhood this freedom is going turn out to be a dictatorship by some nutjob?

Anything is possible.

I, however, don't think that such a possibility is a valid argument for not supporting an oppressed people in their search for freedom and justice. If everyone ignores the situation of the Palestinians on the basis of a hypothetical situation, there will be no peaceful settlement to the conflict, because it is the oppression of the Palestinian people, brought through the illegal occupation that continues the cycle of violence we see before us today.

Whether you support the struggle for Palestinian liberation is your choice.

I was wonder about that, and being `not faithful to "god" ' sounds a bit agnostic.

One could say I am agnostic.

I am not religious, however.

If they are just the Islamic countries you have been to that you are very well traveled, exceedingly so for a proletariat!

I am fortunate in that I have a parent who is a Doctor.

Obviously, as a result, I am not poor.

This does not make me any less of a revolutionary leftist, however.

Oh also Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades and the Black September group call them self part of Fatah and also they do suicide bombings and well suicide bombings are something only Islamic fundamentalist ever do.

The Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade is indeed linked to Fatah.

The Black September Organisation began as a small cell of Fatah men, though whether Fatah was directly linked to the BSO is debatable. Recruits from the Syrian group As-Saiqa, and the PFLP amongst others joined the BSO too.

Your statement about Islamic fundamentalists and suicide bombings is false, however. Dee's Nuts has already given a few examples of non-Islamic suicide bombings.

The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, two secular and leftist organisations, have carried out suicide bombings too.

The suicide bombing phenomenon is relatively recent in the conflict. The first few suicide bombings occurred not until the mid-1990s. Now, for decades, the Palestinians have resisted a brutal Israeli occupation of their land, and such resistance has come in various forms.

For many years they have worked through the international community to bring an end to the illegal Israeli occupation but they have been unsuccessful. Indeed, the UN has been powerless to implement its many resolutions on Occupied Palestine. In 1987, the Palestinians rose up in a largely non-violent uprising to "shake off" the occupation and achieve independence. Although this Intifada brought awareness of their struggle to the world, it did not result in the end of the illegal Israeli occupation.

The Palestinians even went as far as to accept the two-state solution, in which Palestinians would be given a state based upon 22% of historic Palestine, when under the British Mandate.

In 1991, the Palestinians were brought to the negotiating table with the Israelis at Madrid, with the hope that talks would lead to the implementation of UN Resolutions 242 and 338. Instead, this led to the Oslo Accords, which simply led to persisting of Israeli occupation and domination of Palestine, along with the deterioration of Palestinian economic life, increase in the confiscation of their land, and the deepening of Israeli oppression.

The failed Peace Process saw a second Intifada begin in 2000. This consisted of non-violent as well as armed resistance. Israel continued to defy international law, whilst making Palestinian lives even more miserable.

In fact, even before the suicide bombings inside Israel began, their actions in the OPTs were considered "terrorism" by Israeli leaders, such as Ehud Barak.

Suicide bombings are the direct result of Israeli aggression and oppression, via an illegal occupation, and the abandonment of the Palestinian people by the international community.

The act of suicide bombing itself is one that reeks of desperation and hopelessness, and such a feeling has been created, and continues to be created, by the misery forged by the illegal Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories. The best way to combat such terrorism is by actively calling for an end to the occupation.

crafty, but what the difference beteewn support and defending ?

I was merely correcting your original statement.

where is the proof that the normal Palestinians have accepted Israel's right to exist?

Dee's Nuts has given you evidence of Palestinian hopes for a peaceul two-state solution.

In fact, Hamas has also been seen to have taken more and more to the two-state solution. They scrapped the idea of wiping Israel of the map in their election manifesto, and a recent interview (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4693382.stm) with Khaled Meshaal, Hamas' political leader, shows that they are considering recognising Israel.

How is it illegal ? under the geneva convention ? international Court of Justice ?
(It is wrong but it dosn't make it illegal)

International law deems the Isreali occupation of Palestinian land to be illegal.

Israel’s Illegal Occupation (http://www.palestine-un.org/news/IllegalIsraeliOccupation.html)

who do you support ?

Marwan Barghouti is a man I admire.

I support the creation of a socialist state, consisting of Israelis and Palestinians. Such a proposition is, however, idealistic, and so I support a two-state solution based upon pre-1967 borders. Such a solution has so far been ruled out by Israel's refusal to recognise the illegality of their occupation, and that such an injustice is the biggest obstacle to peace.

where is the proof that they tried ?

Read that book I referred to in my last post.

An example of Arafat's attempts to bring Palestinian "terrorists" to "justice" was that of the imprisoning of those who were suspected by Israel of the assassination of an Israeli minister and the smuggling of arms on board the ship Karine-A, without a fair trial.

Although, that the victims of occupation and aggression were and are asked to protect their occupiers and oppressors defies logic and common sense.

By oppression through the occupation, Israel is in fact forging the enemy it claims to be fighting.

I think a major point that is blocking any international encouragement to put pressure on Israel is not wanting to have anything to do(not to support via proxy) with the use of suicide bombings even when used only on Israels army(do you support that?), if it was plan old normal guerrilla fighting there would be far more support.

I agree.

The targeting of Israeli civilians, whether it be by suicide bombers or not, is a useless tactic that is to be condemned by any sane person.

The targeting of Israeli Occupation Forces would be legitimate, even if suicide bombers were used.

Where can i read more about what what they are doing in the West Bank?

Here (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/679476.html) is an article I recently read, confirming the growth of illegal settlers in the West Bank.

Also is the wall far more of a wall for segregation, than a border wall ?

The wall that Israel is building is indeed a form of apartheid, but more significantly, it is a means of stealing more Palestinian land from under the noses of the international community. The fact is that the construction of the wall has been deemed illegal by the UN, the World Court and even the Israeli Supreme Court.

If Israel feels the need to build a wall that "protects" its people, they are entitled to do so, as long as they build that wall inside their internationally recognised borders. The wall, as it is planned, will annex 47% of the West Bank, and hand it over to the settler population, whilst isolating Palestinians from fellow Palestinians.

Breaking Down the Wall (http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article4355.shtml)