Taoism

[DVSGuitarist4]

Anyboy here a Taoist? Or know the teachings of Lao Tzu?

[Technocrates]

What's that?

[VictoryOverWar]

while im not Taoist i have read many things on Taoism and Lao Tzu.....very interesting philosophy.

[Janus]

First of all, Lao Zi's existence is debated as is his authorship of the Dao De Jing. I seriously doubt that anyone here is an actual Taoist. Taoism like its rival Confucianism are both old, feudal, and conservative ideologies that should be totally destroyed particularly in China.

[KickMcCann]

The Tao Te Ching is a good read if you can muster up some patience for poetry, alot of people here cannot. The book has lots of good advice, usually along the lines of "going with the flow" how to overcome the various manifestations of resistence and having patience and the right mindset. And even some political advice regarding such issues as the proper size for a country.
That being said, its important to remember the context from which the book is written- that of imperial china. In the big picture it an obsolete book as it imagines the ideal society as some sort of benevolent feudal monarchy, which is understandable because that was the only known socio/political arrangement at the time. Perhaps it makes more relevent if you imagine the "emperor" or "leader" as mentioned in the texts as just a regular person without power and title or even a democratic institution; then it can be more applicable to a modern person's life or their ideal political system.

[DVSGuitarist4]

thats a great breakdown of it. and yes it does take a lot of patience to read, and an open mind too.

[Fidelbrand]

I think Daosim / Taoism is extremely interesting. Its teaching on non-intervention and to follow the way of nature catches my mind

A useful link in English:

Taoist Thoughts (http://www.hku.hk/philodep/ch/Daoindex.html)

[Chicom]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 28 2006, 12:37 AM
Taoism like its rival Confucianism are both old, feudal, and conservative ideologies that should be totally destroyed particularly in China.
Falun Gong should be destroyed too.

[DVSGuitarist4]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 06:44 AM
I think Daosim / Taoism is extremely interesting. Its teaching on non-intervention and to follow the way of nature catches my mind

A useful link in English:

Taoist Thoughts (http://www.hku.hk/philodep/ch/Daoindex.html)
I'm sort of familiar with Taoism, but what is Daoism?

[vox_populi]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 04:48 PM
I'm sort of familiar with Taoism, but what is Daoism?
Taoism and Daoism are the same thing....they are just spelled different. It's pronounced "dow"ism

[DVSGuitarist4]

I wonder why they named them differently.

[vox_populi]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 09:58 PM
I wonder why they named them differently.
I'm not completely sure but i think that the chinese letter T is pronounced as a D. And Daoism is the western spelling so it isn't mispronounced...but im not sure...

[Fidelbrand]

Originally posted by vox_populi+Jan 29 2006, 06:10 AM--> (vox_populi @ Jan 29 2006, 06:10 AM)
[email protected] 28 2006, 09:58 PM
I wonder why they named them differently.
I'm not completely sure but i think that the chinese letter T is pronounced as a D. And Daoism is the western spelling so it isn't mispronounced...but im not sure... [/b]
You are right, so be sure. ;)

You seem to be quite into Chinese stuffs.

[DVSGuitarist4]

yes, quite smart. i'm glad you know what your talking about.

[vox_populi]

Well...i have always been fond asian culture, nature, philosophy, music and religion. Even though i live in Sweden and have never been to any asian country i feel that their culture is closer to my heart then the west's. One intresting fact is that China is the only floodculture(Egypt, Mesopotamia, Indus and China) that has survived to the modern ages. And i think that that tells quite alot. Their culture was one of the first human cultures ever...and is still around. But to return to Taoism...the first thing i ever read about Taoism was a poem. And when i read that it made me feel that Taoism was something for me. It goes something like:

"Chuang Tzu dreamed that he was a butterfly, fluttering about, not knowing that it was Chuang Chou. He woke with a start, and was Chuang Chou again. But he did not know whether he was Chuang Chou who had dreamed that he was a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming that he was Chuang Chou."

I'll try to summarize what Taoism is all about. I'll just cut, paste and edit from a pretty good website Taoist Beliefs (http://www.religionfacts.com/taoism/beliefs.htm)



Taoism has many similarities with Confucianism, that's because their both based on the same chinese worldview, that came long before. The two belief systems are most accurately viewed as complementary rather than competitive, for while Confucianism concerns itself with the social and moral side of life, Taoism focuses on the individual, spiritual life. Chinese thought has been characterized by an awareness of man's close relationship with nature and the universe, a cyclical view of time and the universe. The ultimate reality in Taoism is the Tao, or Way. Broadly defined, the Tao is the mysterious natural order of the universe. But the Taoist Sages always say that nothing can be said about the Tao. According to the Tao Te Ching:

The way that can be spoken of
Is not the constant Way;
The name that can be named
Is not the constant Name.

The nameless was at the beginning of heaven and earth;
The named was the mother of myriad creatures.
Hence always rid yourself of desires in order to observe its secrets;
But always allow yourself to have desires in order to observe its manifestations.

These two are the same
But diverge in name as they issue forth.
Being the same they are called mysteries,
Mystery upon mystery -
The gateway of the manifold secrets.
The Tao-Te Ching goes on to say the Tao is

something formlessly fashioned, that existed before Heaven and Earth....Its name we do not know; Tao is the byname we give it. Were I forced to say to what class of things it belongs I should call it Immense.

In Chinese thinking, to give something a name (ming) is to assign it a place in the universe. This cannot be done with the Tao, as it pervades and encompasses all.

The Tao has no characteristics, but is not nothingness. In fact, it is better understood as "everythingness," as it contains within itself all potential characteristics. It encompasses both Being (yu) and Non-Being (wu). "In its mode of being Unseen, we will see its mysteries; in the mode of the Seen, we will see its boundaries."

The Tao encompasses all opposite and complementary forces, which are collectively referred to as yin and yang. As represented in the familiar Great Polarity symbol (seen at the top of this page), yin and yang are interdependent and contain within themselves the seed of the other. Yin is associated with darkness, femininity, passivity and water, while yang is light, masculinity, activity and air.

Yin and yang are always in perfect balance within the Tao. The goal of the Taoist, therefore, is to keep these opposites in balance within his or her own life.

The Tao is further characterized by tzu-jan, which is difficult to translate directly but is usually rendered "spontaneity" or "self-so." The self-so is unconditioned and uninfluenced; it is nothing other than itself.

This, in turn, is the ideal of the sage-ruler in the Tao Te Ching. He does not strive, he does not intervene, but acts in such a way that "everyone throughout the country says, 'It happened of its own accord' (tzu-jan)."

The spiritual beings of primary importance in religious Taoism are the Immortals. First introduced in the Chuang-Tzu, and perhaps intended by the author to be allegorical, these super-human beings came to be revered and emulated by Taoists. Some even seek to locate them, in the hope of asking them their secret of immortality.

In the Chuang-Tzu, these perfect beings dwell far away in an untroubled place, where they experience an effortless existence of physical freedom. They are ageless, eat nothing but air, drink nothing but dew, and enjoy the power of flight. They exemplify the Taoist virtue of spontaneity - they are nothing other than their essential nature.

The ideal person in philosophical Taoism is the sage who understands and lives in accordance with the Tao. Knowing that all opposites are relative and interdependent, and that the best way to live is in harmony with the natural course of things (the Tao), a Taoist does not struggle, oppose, or strive.

Instead, the sage practices wu-wei, or "non-action." In the Tao Te Ching, this is the central virtue of the wise ruler. Wu-wei does not mean doing nothing or doing things only in moderation. To practice wu-wei is to so orient oneself with the Tao that one's actions go unnoticed. "Perfect activity leaves no track behind it; perfect speech is like a jade worker whose tool leaves no mark." In yet another paradox, wu-wei "never acts, yet there is nothing it does not do."

The focus of most religious Taoism is attaining immortality. This can have various meanings: eternal life, longevity of life, or attainment of superhuman physical abilities. Taoists have sought longevity by a variety of methods, such as:

Focusing attention on the body through diet, exercises, and mindfulness
Regulating the breath (ch'i), circulating its power deliberately to all parts of the body
Harnessing sexual energy, especially by retaining semen and sending its power throughout the body
Exploring alchemy with the goal of finding the elixir of immortality
Behaving in a moral way that is in harmony with the Tao
Searching for the Isles of the Blessed, where the Immortals dwell and may be persuaded to share their secrets of immortality

In Taoism, life and death are merely two aspects of reality, the unchanging Tao. Death is simply a transformation from being to non-being; from yang to yin.

Taoism teaches that humans ought to accept life and death as complementary aspects of the Tao. Death should be neither feared nor desired.

"Since life and death are each other's companions, why worry about them? All beings are one." (Chuang-Tzu)


I think that this gives you a pretty good idea about what it's all about.
I think that Taoism has many important things to tell.

[Robocommie]

I'm a dedicated Taoist. I think anyone viewing it as a feudal, conservative religion is taking the Tao Te Ching and it's imperial Chinese language and use of metaphor far, far too literally.

Vox Populi did a good job I think. The best way to summarize Taoist philosophy is to cultivate oneself to live a full, healthy, happy life, without valuing power or wealth or any kind of material gains, that life is a series of moments. It's about living in peace and harmony with all other life, humbly and with compassion.

I think anyone calling for the eradication of Taoism in China is playing in to colonialism and oppression of populist culture.

[RedStarOverChina]

I think anyone calling for the eradication of Taoism in China is playing in to colonialism and oppression of populist culture.
Daoism is at its nature, passive and reactionary.

I don't think destroying Daoism, Confucianism and Buddhism will somehow benefit western imperialism. On the contrary, it would be extremely benefitial to Chinese people...To purge them of their ancient chains of tradition and superstitions.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Daoism is almost identical with dialectical materialism in places -- and since both of these are a reflection of well-known ruling-class views of the world, Marxists, it would seem, should have nothing to do with either mystical system.

http://www.anti-dialectics.org

[RedStarOverChina]

^Fancy site. :)

Good job.

I don't think dialectical materialism and Daoism were views of the ruling class though.

Hegalian dialect was banned in Prussia, while Chinese scholars only turn to Daoism when they fail to enter politics.

But I see the similarity between those two... hmm. Never thought of it that way before. Yeah, it's true--both suggest that the reality is polarized.

[vox_populi]

Double Post <_<

[vox_populi]

I have alot of respect for Taoism...
The best way to summarize Taoist philosophy is to cultivate oneself to live a full, healthy, happy life, without valuing power or wealth or any kind of material gains, that life is a series of moments. It&#39;s about living in peace and harmony with all other life, humbly and with compassion. and I try to live my life according to what is summarized in this quote...


But of course it has its dark sides...but i try to focus on the positive ;)

[DVSGuitarist4]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 09:16 AM
I have alot of respect for Taoism...
The best way to summarize Taoist philosophy is to cultivate oneself to live a full, healthy, happy life, without valuing power or wealth or any kind of material gains, that life is a series of moments. It&#39;s about living in peace and harmony with all other life, humbly and with compassion. and I try to live my life according to what is summarized in this quote...


But of course it has its dark sides...but i try to focus on the positive ;)
yeah...dark and light....yin and yang

[vox_populi]

Yo damn right :D

[peaccenicked]

I prefer to think of Taoism as a folk wisdom which is seen in proverbs, and poetry from all ages and places. Wise platitudes have their moments and many are contradictory towards one another. There are parrallels with dialectics, which is more to do with the resolution of contradictory statements.

[vox_populi]

I&#39;ve just started to read a book about taoism...and if has any intresting new information...i&#39;ll do a short "Taoism for Dummies" kind of thread.

[Seeker]

The Tao Te Ching reads like anarchist propaganda. Lao Tsu was obviously very much anti-centralization, anti-authoritarian, and advised not acting like a reactionary (ie using negative reinforcement, or an eye for an eye to achieve your goals).

Some people think that book was an instruction manual for establishing a society in which each individual was their own "king".

[Zak]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 12:43 AM
First of all, Lao Zi&#39;s existence is debated as is his authorship of the Dao De Jing. I seriously doubt that anyone here is an actual Taoist. Taoism like its rival Confucianism are both old, feudal, and conservative ideologies that should be totally destroyed particularly in China.
Taoism and Confucianism are not rivals. They are often practiced in harmony. As for your claim they are feudal, Confucianism does not talk about a feudal system. It talks about a distinctly Chinese system that predates feudalism by more than a thousand years. Dictionary.com entry for feudalism is

" 1. A political and economic system of Europe from the 9th to about the 15th century, based on the holding of all land in fief or fee and the resulting relation of lord to vassal and characterized by homage, legal and military service of tenants, and forfeiture.
2. A political, economic, or social order resembling this medieval system."

I doubt many modern conservatives would agree with much of Taoism or Confucianism. In their time they were both radical.

[Zak]

Originally posted by vox_populi+Jan 28 2006, 10:16 PM--> (vox_populi &#064; Jan 28 2006, 10:16 PM)
[email protected] 28 2006, 09:58 PM
I wonder why they named them differently.
I&#39;m not completely sure but i think that the chinese letter T is pronounced as a D. And Daoism is the western spelling so it isn&#39;t mispronounced...but im not sure...[/b]
Daoism is from the older Romanization of Chinese, Wade-Giles. This system is being phased out of use because it is counterintuitive to English speakers. It’s the reason we have Peking duck. Peking=Beijing. Taoism has come over to a Pinyin spelling (spelling spelling), but many words like Kung Fu (gong fu) and Taipei (Taibei) have not, causing mispronunciation.

[Zak]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 08:19 AM
I don&#39;t think destroying Daoism, Confucianism and Buddhism will somehow benefit western imperialism. On the contrary, it would be extremely benefitial to Chinese people...To purge them of their ancient chains of tradition and superstitions.
For the way Confucianism and Daoism are practiced today I can see your point, and for the way Buddhism is practiced by some, but the interesting thing is that not one of these religions started as a religion. In the case of Buddhism, I believe a religious Buddhist to be in contradiction with the teaching of Buddha. He taught free thought and to test the words of everyone, to accept nothing on faith. Confucius was talking about politics not religion. Daoism is a Philosophy. It has adopted folk gods, as have Buddhism and Daoism, but these things are not in the foundations of the philosophy. Buddhism and Daoism also have several schools of thought. For example, Tai Chi is a form of Daoism, should it be abolished?

[grove street]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 12:43 AM
Taoism like its rival Confucianism are both old, feudal, and conservative ideologies that should be totally destroyed particularly in China.
That is the main downfall of Communsim, you impose your ideas and beliefs on others while dismissing the cultural beliefs and ideas of the people. It is very similar to what the church did during the dark ages. P

[grove street]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 12:43 AM
Taoism like its rival Confucianism are both old, feudal, and conservative ideologies that should be totally destroyed particularly in China.
That is the main downfall of Communsim, you impose your ideas and beliefs on others while dismissing the cultural beliefs and ideas of the people. It is very similar to what the church did during the dark ages. People have right to freedom of religion and freedom from it.

[Hopes_Guevara]

I think religion in countrys is not purely religious but also cultural tradition of it. Therefore, in any religion, you can find on it beauty of national culture. The weakness of religion, as Janus said, is conservativeness but strong point of it is national character what is expressed distinctly in it. Sometimes religious rituals are not religious but show national customs. I think we should ignore the weaknesses of religion and acquire the cultural value of it.
As for Taoism, I see it is very interesting, such as: dialectics in thought, atheism in the world view, ect. Moreover, the theory of Taoism created the basis for founding a famous school of martial art in China: Wu Dang. And this is the pride of Chinese throughout many generations.

[Janus]

As for your claim they are feudal, Confucianism does not talk about a feudal system.
China isn&#39;t in Europe so the term feudal can be applied to that time period but more as an analogy.


For example, Tai Chi is a form of Daoism, should it be abolished?
Tai Chi Chuan is practices more for exercise than for any religious purposes.


That is the main downfall of Communsim, you impose your ideas and beliefs on others while dismissing the cultural beliefs and ideas of the people. It is very similar to what the church did during the dark ages. People have right to freedom of religion and freedom from it.
No one is imposing their ideas here. Confucianism is an ancient and obsolete mode of thought that has severely hampered China. The problem with Confucianism is that it has become dogmatic and reactionary. During imperial rule, scholars were supposed to memorize the classical texts. When the imperialists invaded, the scholar gentry were still searching for answers within these very texts. If that isn&#39;t dogmatic and reactionary, then I don&#39;t know what is. Sure, you can go ahead and study it all you want, but I am warning you that it has done more harm than good in China so I felt that it should be dropped. The whole point of communism is to move forward into an advanced society free from dogma and superstitions which the development of Confucianism has caused it to become.