The bad image of revolutionary ideas

[razboz]

I'm not entirely sure wther to post this in this section....
Anyway, it strikes me as evident that left wing have a ghastly reputation. This is self evident when we see the latent lack of revolution that is not seweeping our society. One could mention the rise of socialist governments in south america or the rise of the left in various european countries, but non of these parties intend to overthrow the system of capitalism to replace it with true communism. So one must ask oneself why? Why is it that left wing ideals have such a poor image? To answer this question is essential because without massed suport of the people no revolution can ever happen.
It is my beleif that the major reason for this is the massive failure of socialism through out the world, culminating in the SOviet Union's collapse in 1991, oppressive "socialist"regimes in China and assorted other countries. I beleive the reason for thiese events is that the revolution after occuring had to try to fight capitalism for the outside. Im thinking specifically of the USSR. The soviets had to fight and lose to the Germans, then were in constant conflict with the West. This in effect created the totalitarian regime under Stalin, because the country needed a ruthless war-leader at its helm to fight capitalism in the west. But this fight was doomed to failure due to the nature of capitalism and western style democracy. This system, when under attack draws together, rather than shattering as socialist regimes have the uncanny tendency of doing. So the real reason that radical left wing ideas have such a bad reputation is that Communism lost the fight in the 20th century. But how can we make it win in the 21st? or even 22nd ofor that matter? For it is evident that communism will not prevail within 10 years. or even 20. or even 30. It will take a long time because an essential part of of the revolution is the fact thet the entire system MUST be subverted all in one, because capitalism will fight and win against communism, due it its more product oriented organisation. Communism and any other radical left wing revolution MUST take over all at once, the entire owrld or NOTHING. Any attempt at a revolution will only lower the status of the revolution itself. for the moment subversive action is what is best, but no attempt at an actual takeover. thus over the yeears maybe well be able to gain more and more ground, or at least lose less and less and thus eventually take over again, learning from the mistakes of our past. As with the war in Vietnam we must fight slowly, patiently and not rush things: this is the way Ho-CHi.Minh and Giap defeated the USA: this si the way we must defeated capitalism.

[somebodywhowantedtoleaveandnotcomeback]

I agree that our reputation is bad, but it's more due to the ungoing antipropaganda and diabolising of communism by capitalist imperialist states such as the US than due to the lack of results. Besides that, there is of course the problem of people like Stalin and Mao misusing the name of communism. Also, I understand why you feel we should take the world at one instant, but you must understand this is practically impossible. It would be way more constructive for the revolution if we could prove that it works in one country, and use that to start revolutions worldwide and so come to a liberation of everybody.

[razboz]

While i am compelled to agree with your view RedFaction, it is clear to me that demonstrating the goodness of communism inone state will never work. This precisely beacause of the natural tendency of capitalists to draw back and feel threatened by communism. This hypothetical model communist state would not function in the context of a globalised wowrld, were they would have to compete with capitalists. In this case any communist state is doomed to fail if it attempts to mantain strict communist ideas, as the USSR did and will have no ther option than shift towards a more capitalist society, as the peoples republic of china is doing. one could cite the contuînued existance of Cuba or North Korea but these are dictatorships and do not constitute model and utopic communism.

[Rawthentic]

Yes, I have seen a commercial against piracy that say, " If you download piracy, your downloading communism". And theres a big red devil behind a kid on a computer. As long as bullshit like this keeps appearing,itll be hard to get any support for the revolution any time soon. They portray us as FASCISTS, which is the other way around if you ask me. Capitalist propaganda creates crap like that that definitley stirs public opinion. For example, in my World History text book, it defines communism as " authoritarian socialism" and doesnt fail to say that it ignores basic human rights. They start brainwashing us when were small, to the point that people that I once knew wont talk to me anymore after they found out that I was a socialist, and others just look t me weird as if im gonna kil them or something. Oh well, we have a long road to go, but ill stick it through :)

[Seong]

There is actually a computer game called 'The Movies' that talks about those 'damn pinkos.' This game is aimed at children from the age of around eight. Subliminal messages from childhood. Fuck I hate them.

[redstar2000]

There is another approach, at least in principle.

Instead of getting "bogged down" in trying to "defend" 20th century Leninism, why not -- in the present period -- concentrate our fire on the visible failures of capitalism?

Carefully refraining from any hint that capitalism could be "reformed" to make it "kinder and gentler"?

In other words, just intransigent opposition! :angry:

We paint the ruling class as total bastards always!

Such a campaign, over a decade or two, might serve to revive serious interest in revolutionary alternatives.

Of course, we'll talk about communism/anarchism to people who are actually interested right now in those ideas.

And there will be more people like that as time passes.

But the best strategy right now might well be to arouse hatred and contempt for every aspect of the existing system.

Show people how it repeatedly fails to deliver on its promises.

And make no promises of our own at this point; wait for a time when the promises we make will actually make sense to people.

Historically speaking, it won't be all that long. :D

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[bed_of_nails]

I think Redstar's idea is the best one presented yet.

Arguing the defence of Communism when the opposition brings up Stalin and Mao is a difficult task. I have argued against nobody that drops the subject when I exclaim "But they weren't actually communists!" A new means of presenting Communism will make it easier to convince people of I believe.

Though we need to show our discontent with the current system, I think we need to be rational while doing so. I have seen too many people (I myself included on occasion) get obviously very angry and flustered by an opponent who refuses to acknowledge or refute my points, and this seems to work against me in the eyes of those watching.

Attacking capitalism seems to be a better means of accomplishing our goals, for we will not have to also propose the sub-ideology (Marxist, Marxist-Leninist, etc.) we believe will work best and convince them of that also.

[Guerrilla1008]

i agree with Red star and bed of nails the only way for another so called socialists or communists govt to emerge in today's world is not by going around and chanting and sreaming Marxism-Lennism Now a days after the cold war people see what they think were communists leaders suchas Stalin and MAo and automatically figure that if they were to allow a govt like that people will be killed and murdered by thhe thousands. it is true that they weren't truly communists. If communism is to succed now a day's people are going to have to see how leftists govts are growing in south and central america. to show the average person your ideas and say that you could make everyone equal and so forth by pushing Marxists-Lennists ideas just with out the name.

[bed_of_nails]

We need to analyze the most commonly used arguments and create strategies for handling them. This would be a good sticky-thread in Anti-Fascism or Practice.

I know I constantly hear the argument of "Well whats the point in a society where everybody is the same". I hate that argument with an undying passion. There is no good response other than "We arent going to be all the same!"

[Guerrilla1008]

there could be if people are to read Marx. this is a way if just the right person or people get in charge of the govt. but we need to start to analyze how these leftists govts are starting to rise and see what they are doing and put some of there tactics and along with ours and other people from history to make a successfull take over.

[bed_of_nails]

The problem I have encountered is that your ever-day average person doesnt want to sit down and read a book on a political and economic philosophy.

We need to be able to summarize Marxism and argue the points with strategies we know we can use to win.

[Delirium]

The average person seems to have almost no political education. They do not seem to want one either. A revolution lead by a select few does not seem to attractive either. But i agree that chanting "all power to the soviets" is not going to get us anywhere.

[Guerrilla1008]

i agree with u i just want the communists to give out some of Marx's writings to the people so they can agree and be committed to the casue No way is a person gonna go home and go read marx's selected writings but if we could explain it to them and give examples and even show these examples off to these peoples then we are talking We could totally win the only prblem is that a lot of people get afraid when they hear the word Communism but in the near future there is going to be a huge wave of left revoultuions throughout the world

[bed_of_nails]

We need air time and recognition. We need to spread the word and get real debates with capitalists. We cant have them edited, or the microphones cut while we are speaking.

[Guerrilla1008]

Most definetly we need to start getting on TV radio anything to get us recognized we need to call out these capitlists and if they dont step up then use that to our advantage. so everyone that they are afraid and if they political scene does not work for us because of sabotage acts by capatilists and the govt and the people are behind us then we must turn toa guerrilla struggle. But we must only turn to this if all political activities have failed for us

[BattleOfTheCowshed]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2006, 02:45 AM
Most definetly we need to start getting on TV radio anything to get us recognized we need to call out these capitlists and if they dont step up then use that to our advantage. so everyone that they are afraid and if they political scene does not work for us because of sabotage acts by capatilists and the govt and the people are behind us then we must turn toa guerrilla struggle. But we must only turn to this if all political activities have failed for us
Despite the fact that I dislike the USSR post-Lenin/Bolsheviks, I think one of the defining moments in the discrediting of the Left was the fall of so-called "communist" countries in the Eastern Bloc. When these regimes fell, the West was able to tell the masses (who for the most part know nothing about communism/anarchism outside of the image in popular culture) that "communism had failed". The biggest difference between this era and the pre-1990's era is that in most people's minds and in the public sphere there is no longer a debate between what economic system is right for humanity, or what our economic system is like. This era is defined by the idea in most people's minds that neoliberalism has won, capitalism has prevailed, and this is the end of history, from now on only the development of capitalism can occur. Turning to popular media to spread our message is futile and a waste of resources. The only way to win now is to go to our fellow 'classmates' and spread the message of Marxism, by showing them that this philosophy is the only one compatible with reality, unlike that idealistic fantasy of Capitalism or reformism, and helping them realize that "another world is possible" to use an oft-overused phrase. This is partly why I find the developments in Latin America so exciting. True, Morales and Chavez are not Socialists, at the moment they are just major reformers. However, I feel their rise to power reflects the failures of capitalism and more importantly, people's developing conscious disagreement with capitalism. I feel this revolutionary potential exists in the United States as well, however, here it is far more pent-up and I doubt any kind slow-reformist movement like in L. America will bring about socialism here. As far as guerilla warfare goes, although I admire Che and the Cuban revolution, such tactics should be reserved for places where there is no viable proleteriat to combat oppression. In the majority of the world today, we dont need a guerilla movement, we need a mass working class movement!

[RNK]

I think the Sino-Soviet split was another terrible day for the Left. No so much in that it discredited the movement but that it weakened it.

[JKP]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2006, 07:42 AM
I think the Sino-Soviet split was another terrible day for the Left. No so much in that it discredited the movement but that it weakened it.
Yes, some bickering among state capitalist regimes is truely a loss for the workers. Or not.

[fightthemachine]

u guys think communism is the way to anarchy? more strict government and gestapo-like secret police gets you no government. it doesn't work that way. i thought it did, but common sense got the best of me. thats y ppl dont like communism in the first place. please argue with this, because i wanna know ur opinions 2. but i dont think thats the way.


pce out

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2006, 01:06 AM
u guys think communism is the way to anarchy?
No because Anarchism is a route to Communism


more strict government and gestapo-like secret police gets you no government. it doesn't work that way.

Good job communism doesn't have a government then isn't it. You need to learn the difference between Communism and socialism.


i thought it did, but common sense got the best of me.

All you need now is a dictionary.

[fightthemachine]

lol additivesfree. i do need a dictionary. i know that communism isnt supposed to have government. but it always does. ppl say that no real communism has been tried. but it never will. us humans have greed and lust for power when we get any power or money. tell u what ill read my dictionary, and u reasearch how the world started. and look @ who started a lot of the communism. they didnt have free ppl they controlled them. they seemed 2 like war a lot, just like the ppl in charge of america now. o and if ur researching, look up what the cia is planning to do to america.

dwonload jfk by rage against the machine. theyre smart. download nature of the threat by rass kass. u should no wuts happening in the world and wuts happenned.

peace (hopefully)

[1984]

Other issue today is the shallow materialistic way of life which spreads the general idea that happiness can only be archieved with many material possesions, and that "sucess" is the synonimous of having a big house, a fast car, and a $10.000 salary.

This sure doesn't help us.

[razboz]

i think yet another problem is that this attitude that marxists seem to have thet the people will rise of their own accord as a counter reaction to the oppression of the capitilsts and that the revolution will more or less make itself. This is what marx said. However i think this thinking only leads to inaction. If memory serves i beleive marx spoke of something called 'class-consciousness' . I beleive he said that this must be acheived, that the oppressed must realise their oppression before the revolution can truly start. (corect me if my wrong). I think that that the attitude of "the revolution will happen anyways" is not one that will bring the revolution. For the revolutiion to occur it is my beleif that we must actively educate people on one hand to show them the rightness of communism, and on the other hand take action against the governments of our countries (for those who live in industrialised nations) to weaken the coherence and stability of these governments and show the people that communism still has a back bone and still has claws and still is the only way forward. Then and only then will the reovution occur on its own. But it must be set off for it to occur and for it to be a peoples revolution.