Palestine and Isreali's and Hamas

[( R )evolution]

Hello, Isreali is the real Terroist organzation. They say we are trying to make peace and they give the opressered Palestine people he West Bank but all they are doing is making them in more of a prison. They gaza strip will be surrond by Jewish settlements is this Justice is this Peace!!!!!!!!! FUCK NO! Isreali makes me sick. I was wondering what you guys think about Hamas? I support them 95% and if I could I would join there party in Palestine.

[WUOrevolt]

Don't they participate in suicide attacks against civilians?

[ReD_ReBeL]

I take an Internationalist approach the the palestine-Isreal conflict, i support independence for the Palestians but i do not support any of the resistance groups.
No i do not like Hamas atall because i do not support suicide bombings and exspecialy do not support the killing of civillians.

This picture shows a suicide bombing by Hamas to a civillian bus killing 19 people. This is disgusting.

[WUOrevolt]

Is it possible that Hamas may turn people ff to the palestinian cause, because most people see them as terrorists

[The Grey Blur]

Well, at least you have an opinion (goddamn how I hate fence-sitters)

Check this thread out:

Israeli/ Palestine Conflict (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=44637)


Don't they participate in suicide attacks against civilians?
Yes but that is not why one should reserve support for Hamas. They are reactionary religious fundamentalists

Check out the secular, Marxist-influenced PLO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLO)


I take an Internationalist approach the the palestine-Isreal conflict, i support independence for the Palestians but i do not support any of the resistance groups.
Well, it's nice to know you care :)


i do not support suicide bombings
Any reason?


exspecialy do not support the killing of civillians.
Retaliation, Palestinian resistance groups have killed a fraction of the amount of Palestinian people ejected from their land and killed by the illegal Israeli state


Is it possible that Hamas may turn people ff to the palestinian cause, because most people see them as terrorists
:lol: "Most people" view Communists as evil baby eaters - I guess they're right about that too...Anyway, it is only the Palestinian working-classes opinions that matter not people chatting on an Internet Message Board or Middle-Class Americans


This picture shows a suicide bombing by Hamas to a civillian bus killing 19 people. This is disgusting.
FIGHT BACK!

And if we're gonna yap about what's 'disgusting' in a War :rolleyes: here's a nice picture for you

Sabra & Shatila Massacres (http://indictsharon.net/massacres.shtml)

[ReD_ReBeL]

QUOTE
i do not support suicide bombings


Any reason?

It's just a personal thing i don't believe in. Plus the people who use that tactic are more than likely religious fundamentalists who think they are gonna be rewarded by Allah.


Retaliation, Palestinian resistance groups have killed a fraction of the amount of Palestinian people ejected from their land and killed by the illegal Israeli state

Yes, this is true but i still don't think that they should take revenge on normal working people who may even support your cause. Your just lowering yourself to the level of your enemy and it becomes unjustifiable to slaughter innocent men woman and children.

[Atlas Swallowed]

The Mosaad pretty much created them, their attacks seem a little to conveintly timed to give Israeli hawks reason to attack when politically conveinant. Why don't the suicide bombers ever blow up anyone with any power and usually only civillians? Targeting civillians is cowardly regardless of what nation or race they maybe that goes as much for the IDF as HAMAS. Would'nt dropping a bomb and running or firing a missel be just as effective and you may actually live to fight another day. Hamas seems to do more good for the Zionists in power than for the Palestinian people.

[bcbm]

Check out the secular, Marxist-influenced PLO

Or perhaps the PFLP, PFLP-GC, DFLP, PLF, etc?

[Andy Bowden]

Socialists should not support Hamas. The fact they are anti-occupation is irrelevant, if they got into Govt all secular left forces in Palestine would meet a grisly end.

They have had a record of attacking women who don't wear the veil and attacking leftist PFLP members.

[WUOrevolt]

Originally posted by black banner black [email protected] 25 2006, 11:12 PM

Check out the secular, Marxist-influenced PLO

Or perhaps the PFLP, PFLP-GC, DFLP, PLF, etc?
If I am not mistaken, some of those are considered terrorist group, while the PLO is not.

[ReD_ReBeL]

Actualy the PLO are deemed a terrorist organisation
Source (http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/plo.htm)

[MeTaLhEaD]

Suicide Bombings are the result of opression and the occupation!

[MeTaLhEaD]

http://images.deviantart.com/large/indyart/political/Suicide_bombman_1.gif

[Comrade Ben]

I agree, Israel is a proud nation that wont back down, and they have done many bad things. But NO religious inconsistancy deserves the death of some many peoples. Religion truly is the opiate of the masses, gentlemen, and what we are watching, is a drug war.

[ReD_ReBeL]

look none of your 'propaganda' is going to change my mind about suicide bombings, it's an unjustifiable act. Northern Ireland is occupied, have i saw suicide bombings? no. South Africa was occupied , did i see suicide bombings?no. among other Suicide Bombings are the act of religious fundamentalists who think they are goihng to be internally rewarded for it.

[MeTaLhEaD]

Believe me Ireland occupied is not Palestina occupied! do u see in Ireland kids getting killed because of throwing stones to tanks?
do not compare 1 thing to another completely different


1 cosa es Juan Dominguez y la otra No me chinges

[Comrade Ben]

Why were the children throwing rocks at tanks if they knew it would get them killed?

[ReD_ReBeL]

do not compare 1 thing to another completely different

I was stating that both resistance is fighting for the independence of there nation.
Look at it in this perspective, If it was one of your dearest loved one's traveling to work on a public bus and it gets blown up for something your government has done, do you think that is ok? is that justifyable? well u might be slightly fucked up in head ,but i certainly don't think that is ok and justifyable.


1 cosa es Juan Dominguez y la otra No me chinges

what does that mean?

[MeTaLhEaD]

i do not justify it.. also i dont justify the killing of civilians by hands of Irael!

BUT "you get what you give" HATE

[Janus]

Actualy the PLO are deemed a terrorist organisation
Israel no longer recognizes the PLO as a terrorist organization as of the signing of the Oslo Accords. The US, Israel, and the UN all see the PLO as the legitimate representative of the Palestinian people.

[( R )evolution]

I DO NOT SUPPORT THEY ATTACKING OF INNOCENT CIVILANS. That is the only part I dislike about Hamas. I dont support sucidie bombings against innocent civilans but the military and gov't officals I give Hamas my support. It look likes Hamas got 40% of the vote in Palestine. Pretty good for there first run at democracy. Fatha will probally bull shit and not give any spots in the Gov't to Hamas.

[ReD_ReBeL]

That is the only part I dislike about Hamas

So u don't mind there strict religious policies? and there views on woman?

[Soheran]

Originally posted by Machiavelli [email protected] 26 2006, 03:02 AM
I DO NOT SUPPORT THEY ATTACKING OF INNOCENT CIVILANS. That is the only part I dislike about Hamas. I dont support sucidie bombings against innocent civilans but the military and gov't officals I give Hamas my support. It look likes Hamas got 40% of the vote in Palestine. Pretty good for there first run at democracy. Fatha will probally bull shit and not give any spots in the Gov't to Hamas.
So you "support Hamas 100%", yet you are opposed to the tactics of their "resistance struggle"?

What, precisely, about them do you support? Their reactionary religious fundamentalism?

[( R )evolution]

I agree with there messege. But I dislike there tactics against innocent civilans. I believe that Hamas should try to attack military targets not innocent civilians. I believe what the Isreali's have been doing to them in un-justice and is complete crap.

[Alex]

"Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qurei has announced his resignation, saying Hamas must form the next government following the parliamentary elections."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4649606.stm

These are interesting times we're living in, people.

[Intifada]

(Comrade Ben)

Why were the children throwing rocks at tanks if they knew it would get them killed?

What a stupid comment.

Stone throwing is an extremely brave and legitimate form of resistance against an illegal occupation.

The murder of children who take part in such legitimate resistance is, quite simply, cowardly terrorism.

However, on the topic of Hamas and the elections, it does not surprise me that a people who have been oppressed for decades, without relent, seem to have finally turned to an extremist organisation like Hamas.

What did the Israelis expect would be the result of their illegal occupation?

Moreover, the fact that Fatah is a corrupt and inefficient party, that has largely ignored the plight of ordinary Palestinians, seems to have - understandably - resulted in a growth in support for Hamas, a party that provides the many poor Palestinian people with medical care, food, and schooling.

[Luís Henrique]

I agree with there messege.

You agree that Palestine should become an Islamic State?


But I dislike there tactics against innocent civilans.

An important part of "their message" is that those "innocent civilians" are not innocent at all, for they are not even civilians. Do you disagree with that specific part of "their message"?


I believe that Hamas should try to attack military targets not innocent civilians.

And how do you convey such opinion to them?

My suggestion: stop "supporting" them until they stop doing things you don't support.


I believe what the Isreali's have been doing to them in un-justice and is complete crap.

To them who, the Palestinians in general or Hamas fanaticals in particular?

Luís Henrique

[MeTaLhEaD]

What are ur thougts of suicide car bombs against iraely army checkpoints?

[CubaSocialista]

Originally posted by Machiavelli [email protected] 25 2006, 01:33 AM
Hello, Isreali is the real Terroist organzation. They say we are trying to make peace and they give the opressered Palestine people he West Bank but all they are doing is making them in more of a prison. They gaza strip will be surrond by Jewish settlements is this Justice is this Peace!!!!!!!!! FUCK NO! Isreali makes me sick. I was wondering what you guys think about Hamas? I support them 95% and if I could I would join there party in Palestine.
Hamas is a reactionary, anti-semitic, Arab ethnocentric organization.

They are just as bad as the Israeli occupiers, if not worse in many ways.

[Janus]

The people have responded and Hamas is gaining power. I think that this may pose some problems as Israel has insisted that it won't deal with Hamas unless they renounce terrorism.

Source: BBC News


Hamas sweeps to election victory
Islamic militant group Hamas has won a surprise victory in Wednesday's Palestinian parliamentary elections.
Preliminary results give Hamas 76 of the 132 seats in the chamber, with the ruling Fatah party trailing on 43.

The win poses problems for efforts to restart peace talks with Israel, say analysts. Israel insists it will not deal with an authority including Hamas.

Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas, head of the Fatah party, says he remains committed to a peaceful settlement.

"Our main objective is to end the occupation and have an independent Palestinian state," he said at a news conference after the results were announced.
Prime Minister Ahmed Qurei of Fatah has offered to resign, and the party has said it will not join Hamas in government.

In Israel, interim Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said after a three-hour emergency meeting on Thursday that Israel would not negotiate with a Palestinian government including Hamas.

"Israel will not conduct any negotiation with a Palestinian government, if it includes any (members of) an armed terror organisation that calls for Israel's destruction," Mr Olmert's office said in a statement.

The BBC's Jeremy Bowen says Hamas' first big test will be an orderly transfer of power. If they can do it, Palestinians can at least hope for national unity, otherwise their immediate future is grim.

'Under occupation'

US President George W Bush said the poll was a "wake-up call" for the Palestian leadership, but he hoped Mr Abbas would stay in power.

He said the US would not deal with Hamas unless it renounced its call to destroy Israel.

But Hamas co-founder Mahmoud Zahar refused to renounce violence.

"We are not playing terrorism or violence. We are under occupation," he told BBC World TV.

"The Israelis are continuing their aggression against our people, killing, detention, demolition and in order to stop these processes, we run effective self defence by all means, including using guns."

Hamas and Fatah supporters clashed on Thursday in the West Bank town of Ramallah. Shots were fired in the air and some injuries were reported.

The clash, which happened after Hamas supporters tried to raise their flag over the Palestinian parliament, was brought under control by police after about 10 minutes.

Arab concern

Election commission head Hanna Nasser said 95% of the votes had now been counted, and the results could still change slightly.

On top of the seats taken by Hamas and Fatah, the 13 remaining seats went to smaller parties and independents, some backed by Hamas.

The turnout was 77%.

Mr Abbas will now have to discuss with Hamas the formation of a new government and the appointment of a prime minister.

Hamas leaders have said they want to open talks with other groups including Fatah about a political partnership.

The BBC's Richard Miron in Jerusalem says the mood in Israel is one of gloom.

Israel's Foreign Minister, Tsipi Livni, appealed to the EU - the biggest financial donors to the authority - to firmly oppose the creation of a "terrorist government".
European leaders echoed the call for Hamas to renounce violence.

"I think it is important for Hamas to understand that there comes a point and the point is now... where they have to decide between a path of democracy or a path of violence," UK Prime Minister Tony Blair said.

US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice will meet UN, European and Russian leaders on Monday to evaluate the result and decide how to proceed with peace efforts.

The BBC's Heba Saleh in Cairo says the Hamas win will also cause Arab governments concern and boost Islamist opposition parties in Egypt and Jordan. The BBC's Jon Leyne in Jerusalem says there is no doubt that the Hamas showing has transformed the Palestinian political arena.

But correspondents say Hamas seems unprepared for its own victory, and has not prepared itself to step neatly into government and assume immediate responsibility.



1996 ELECTION
1) Fatah: 55 seats
2) Independent Fatah: 7 seats
3) Independent Islamists: 4
4) Independent Christians: 3
5) Independents: 15 seats
6) Samaritans: 1 seat
7) Others: 1 seat
8): Vacant: 2 seats

2006 ELECTION
1) Hamas - 76 seats
2) Fatah - 43 seats
3) PFLP - 3 seats
4) Badil - 2 seats
5) Independent Palestine - 2
6) Third Way - 2 seats
7) Independent/other - 4

[Phalanx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 04:48 PM

Hamas, a party that provides the many poor Palestinian people with medical care, food, and schooling.
I wonder if the Palestinians will be surprised if Israelis vote for Likud in the March elections? Extremism in Palestinian politics will probably drive many Israelis to the right.


The murder of children who take part in such legitimate resistance is, quite simply, cowardly terrorism.

Exactly, and Hamas has committed those same acts against Israeli children.


Hamas, a party that provides the many poor Palestinian people with medical care, food, and schooling.

Just like Israel, who provides many poor Israelis with medical care, food, and schooling.

I have to say, most people who are extremely pro-Israel or pro-Palestine are usually idiots. They fail to look at the facts, and they only take into account the facts that best suit them.

[Delirium]

Hamas has 58% (76/132) of the seats by this bbc article (Israel rules out talks with Hamas (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4652866.stm)). This puts the bush administration with it's head in it's ass, with promoting democracy and all that jazz.

[Severian]

Winning the election is a bigger problem for Hamas than for Bush or anyone else. They hoped to do well; actually winning has "stunned" them, reportedly. (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-hamas27jan27,0,5369664.story?coll=la-home-headlines)

For years, Hamas has criticized Fatah's corrupt and semi-collaborationist leadership of the Palestinian Authority, without being willing to take it over themselves. They hid behind the semi-shield of Fatah's vacillations. Now that they've won the election, they proposed a coalition government with Fatah - which Fatah refused.

That's because they have no real answer for the problems they'll face when in power. They refuse to negotiate with Israel, but lack the military power to defeat it. They have no strategy for a successful political struggle either.

No serious political party can refuse to accept power when they have the support to take it, as Lenin once pointed out. Hamas' double game in this respect reflects the demagogic deceptiveness of these rightist bourgeois nationalists.

The Bush administration actually pressed for the elections even knowing Hamas would do well. At his press conference afterwards, Bush expressed a clear two-pronged strategy: reaffirming his commitment to elections, and therefore for Hamas' right to rule...and refusing to deal with them until they toe imperialism's line. The same basic approach was endorsed in this editorial (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/26/AR2006012601902.html=) from the liberal imperialist Washington Post.

The PA cannot function without U.S. and European aid. And Israel will retaliate unrestrained for any new Hamas attacks, both against the Hamas leadership and with collective punishment of the Palestinian people. Hamas will either have to compromise and collaborate, or its leadership and the Palestinian people will both pay a heavy price.

Hamas has to put up or shut up now, and nothing could discredit them more.

[Atlas Swallowed]

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?con...&articleId=1818 (http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=ZER20060127&articleId=1818)

article on Hamas and what purpose they serve.

[Intifada]

(Chinghis Khan)

I wonder if the Palestinians will be surprised if Israelis vote for Likud in the March elections?

I don't think they would be surprised.


Extremism in Palestinian politics will probably drive many Israelis to the right.


This is a likely outcome.


Exactly, and Hamas has committed those same acts against Israeli children.


Not exactly.

The Israeli children who have been killed by Hamas were not resisting an occupation.

Although I understand your argument perfectly.

I have never condoned suicide bombings against innocent Israelis, and more to the point, I do not support Hamas, for various reasons.

The fact remains, however, that Hamas is the effect of the illegal occupation of Palestinian land by Israel.


Just like Israel, who provides many poor Israelis with medical care, food, and schooling.


And your point being?

The situation faced by the people in the Occupied Palestinian Territories cannot be compared to the situation faced by the Israeli people (poor or not) in Israel.

Hamas provided medical care, food and education when such welfare was not being provided by Fatah. Therefore, you must agree, it is no surprise that Hamas has won the "hearts and minds" of a large majority of the Palestinian people.

Fatah's inefficient and corrupt leadership led Palestinians into voting for an alternative government that has provided basic care and needs to the population.


I have to say, most people who are extremely pro-Israel or pro-Palestine are usually idiots.

No.

Stop being an arse.

Being pro-Palestinian is not idiotic.

I do not see anything idiotic in supporting the rights of a people who have been stripped of their land and human rights. Indeed, I only see good in supporting the oppressed over their oppressors.


They fail to look at the facts, and they only take into account the facts that best suit them.

Nothing - at all - "suits me" about the present situation.

I hate it.

I want true peace, and until there is true peace I will not stop working against the illegal occupation that prevents true peace.

The Palestinian-Israeli conflict is not simply a question of Palestinian terrorism that threatens Israeli security, or Israel's existence. The conflict is quite frankly a question of an illegal Israeli occupation that started decades ago, and which has resulted in the violence we see today.

We see, as a direct result of the illegal occupation, Palestinian resistance (please do not confuse these words for support of terrorism), which then leads to Israel's security being threatened.

To speak about Palestinian terrorism, whilst ignoring the fact that the Palestinians have a right to freedom through an end to illegal occupation, is to ignore the reality of the situation. The longer Israel does this, the longer it will remain unable to reach a solution to the conflict.

Those who claim they want peace, must realise quickly that the cause of the effect must be removed. The only obstacle to peace is the illegal activities of the Israeli occupiers. Israel has so far proven herself incapable of realising that the only way true peace can be won, is if the Palestinian people are given the justice they rightly demand.

Let's face it, ordinary Palestinians and ordinary Israelis are fed up of the cycle of violence.

Palestinians want their freedom and an independent state. Israelis want security and protection from attacks against themselves. These two very understandable wants are both dependent upon eachother.

Condemning violence is necessary, and Hamas must - for the sake of the Palestinian people - stop their attacks against innocent Israelis. But, more importantly, Israel must - for the sake of the Israeli people - end the illegal occupation and realise Palestinian rights.

The fact is, true peace cannot be achieved as long as Israel refuses to acknowledge Palestinian rights.

[jaster]

yes i have to agree with the original post, support of them 95%, while they are probably the most honest and corruption-free member of the PLO, there fault lays in thet they refuse to accept israel as a neighbor, hence the lacking 5% above mentioned. If they were to give up this extremisim veiw, much as fatah did in the 70's-80's then they would be perfect (more-or-less)

and secondly the bush administration says that is refuses to deal with terrorists yet it deals with beirut and lebanon which many of the govermental seats are occupied by members of hizb allah, a shia "terror" group

Thirdly, when the same administration mentioned above says that the are the bringewrs of democracy yet it forbids multiple parties from running (can you say baath in iraq).

[jaster]

P.S.-I agree with 'intifada' on the topic of hamas and Likud ( in my opinion they should vote for labour party)

[Intifada]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 09:26 PM
What are ur thougts of suicide car bombs against iraely army checkpoints?
The Israeli soldiers who patrol the checkpoints are legitimate targets.

Whether the weapon used is a suicide bomber or not, is irrelevant.

[jaster]

on the topic of checkpoints, i would like to include that while people with palistinian I.D. cards are made to wait for hours and are arbitrarilly denied accsess based solely on the soldiers whim, while travelers with Israeli ( a special color) are waved right though

[Phalanx]

(Intifada)


No.

Stop being an arse.

Being pro-Palestinian is not idiotic.

I do not see anything idiotic in supporting the rights of a people who have been stripped of their land and human rights. Indeed, I only see good in supporting the oppressed over their oppressors.

You're right, I was being an arse. What I meant to say is that people that ignore the other side of the issue can be quite idiotic. It wasn't directed towards you, but some people that are hysterically pro-Palestinian. I acknowledge that the occupation is illegal and all settlements must be dismantled immediately, but the way the Palestinians choose to uprise, to me at least, leaves much to be desired.


Not exactly.

The Israeli children who have been killed by Hamas were not resisting an occupation.

I meant that both Israeli and Palestinian children have been caught in the crossfire. Before anyone brings up that graph again, I do know that the number Palestinian children killed is disproportionate to the Israeli side.


Nothing - at all - "suits me" about the present situation.

I hate it.

Of course nothing about the current situation suits most people, but when someone is trying to get their point across, they use the facts best supporting their arguments, ignoring many other issues.


I want true peace, and until there is true peace I will not stop working against the illegal occupation that prevents true peace.

I definately agree with you.

Both Israeli policies in the West Bank and Hamas are obstructions to peace. Now it's looking like the two-state solution is the only answer.

[Intifada]

Well, at least we agree man.

[Comrade Ben]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2006, 04:48 PM
(Comrade Ben)

Why were the children throwing rocks at tanks if they knew it would get them killed?

What a stupid comment.

Stone throwing is an extremely brave and legitimate form of resistance against an illegal occupation.

The murder of children who take part in such legitimate resistance is, quite simply, cowardly terrorism.


Well, then they are dieing for their "legitimate" form of resistance. I am an Israeli. I am an Israeli citizen by birth right, though I live in the United States. So, you had your religious ground taken from you? Oh, so, that means you can do exactly the same to the poor sons of Isaac? An eye for an eye makes the world go blind. Can we not all band together, arm in arm, and rejoice in a socialist utopia? The Wall, the Dome, and the Hill, all lying in one city, the most Holy site on earth. Is it worth the killing? The Sons of Israel are your brothers. As they were away, they learnt the ways of your enemies, and came back home to you. It was not their choice that you settled on their homeland. Live in peace, and peace be unto you, and your children. Isnt that better than watching your brothers and sisters in arms explode, because of the rivalries of things that started before you were born.

[Intifada]

(Comrade Ben)

Well, then they are dieing for their "legitimate" form of resistance.

It is liberty or death.

The Palestinian people have nothing to live for under the illegal occupation anyway.


So, you had your religious ground taken from you?

Not me, but the Palestinian people.

Moreover, land is not "religious".

Land is land.

Israel has illegally stolen the land of the Palestinian people, and continues to annex more Palestinian territory.

Is this not wrong?


Oh, so, that means you can do exactly the same to the poor sons of Isaac?

Please, refrain from using religious bullshit to get your point across.

I hate it.


An eye for an eye makes the world go blind

I am not really an admirer of Gandhi.

I subscribe more to the teachings of Malcolm X.


Can we not all band together, arm in arm, and rejoice in a socialist utopia?

That would be fantastic.

But it ain't gonna happen anytime soon.


The Wall, the Dome, and the Hill, all lying in one city, the most Holy site on earth. Is it worth the killing?

No.

In my opinion, religion is not worth dying for.

The Palestinian people, however, simply want freedom and justice.

I cannot be bothered going through the rest of your post, but I will state that if you wish to know of my opinion on the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, just read the stuff that I wrote eight posts up.

[Comrade Ben]

A better way to get what you want, if all you truly want is a place to call home, and it does not need to be Israel, would be to go to the UN, and ask for your own land. They gave Israel unto the Israelits, they can give you a new Palestine.

[Soheran]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected]Jan 28 2006, 12:11 AM
A better way to get what you want, if all you truly want is a place to call home, and it does not need to be Israel, would be to go to the UN, and ask for your own land. They gave Israel unto the Israelits, they can give you a new Palestine.
Firstly, the Zionists got what they got because they engaged in mass immigration. I don't see how the Palestinians could engage in that at this point, or where they could go where they would be accepted. And they do not want any place else, they want their homeland, and there is no reason they should not get it.

Secondly, the UN was given jurisdiction by the British to decide the Israel/Palestine question. What territory would that occur in today?

Thirdly, Palestine is important for a variety of reasons; in 1948 portions of the leadership of both the Soviets and the US were interested in allying with Israel. Do you really think the nations of the world care about the Palestinians?

[Comrade Ben]

Hmm. Thank you! I didn't know the UN was given jurisdiction to make that call. You learn something everyday, I suppose. But, it is the Jew's homeland as well. So, in truth, perhaps it should be given to neither, and have it as its own democratic country, in which their is a pro-Israeli party, and a pro-palestinian party.

[Soheran]

Hmm. Thank you! I didn't know the UN was given jurisdiction to make that call.

Technically it wasn't really given jurisdiction, it had jurisdiction carried over from the League of Nations, which essentially gave control of Palestine to the British after World War I, and when the British terminated their mandate the UN had to deal with the problem.

So Palestine's status was not just the status of any nation, and the British willingly chose to terminate their control over it. The UN did not impose itself on anyone, and did not violate any nation's sovereignty. That would not be the case if it did what you advocate.


You learn something everyday, I suppose. But, it is the Jew's homeland as well. So, in truth, perhaps it should be given to neither, and have it as its own democratic country, in which their is a pro-Israeli party, and a pro-palestinian party.

A federated socialist binational state is my preference. But that is not going to happen.

[James]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1696871,00.html


"US threat to Hamas over $400m aid: Islamists told they must renounce terror"

[James]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1697111,00.html

"Fatah gunmen storm parliament"

[Abood]

Palestine needs to be liberated, but parties such as Hamas likes to kill civilians. They have the thought of: if u kill our civilians, we kill urs...
i think that attacks should be limited on military people only, since theyre the ones doing all the killing. If someone wants to commit suicide bombings, let it be on civilians only, but personally, im not a supporter of such actions, since it proves tht ur giving up and cant fight - so u wanna end ur life and take a couple of lives with u.

[James]

In my humble opinion, the most effective way for the pal's to go about it would be as follows:

1) stop all forms of violence. between pals, and between pals and israelis.
2) recognise israeli borders
3) start a classic public relations campaign.

Such a course of action would raise public awareness, improve the general opinion regarding pals (alot of sympathy is lost by images of blown up buses etc), and make israel seem unnessarily evil.
The rejection of violence would dramatically reduce the counter-pal argument. In a way, the israeli's can not make many concessions because it would look like "giving into terrorism" (or at least, this argument can be used, whilst pal's are violent).

Of course this is not a realistic opinion. But in an ideal world...


In contrast, the israeli's could simply recognise pal etc, give it full control of its own affairs etc.

[James]

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Gua...glpalkiduse.jpg (http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2006/01/27/glpalkiduse.jpg)


now that is fucked up.

[The Grey Blur]

Hardly, the kids just posing, not actually fighting (á la child soldiers in Africa.) I'm sure celebrations were wild amongst Palestinians when Hamas won thus an image like this isn't all that surprising or horrifying.

[Luís Henrique]

Originally posted by Rage Against The [email protected] 28 2006, 08:25 PM
Hardly, the kids just posing, not actually fighting (á la child soldiers in Africa.) I'm sure celebrations were wild amongst Palestinians when Hamas won thus an image like this isn't all that surprising or horrifying.
Nah, what is fucked up is the perfectly western dressing of the kid... :P

Luís Henrique

[Reuben]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 07:50 PM
In my humble opinion, the most effective way for the pal's to go about it would be as follows:

1) stop all forms of violence. between pals, and between pals and israelis.
2) recognise israeli borders
3) start a classic public relations campaign.

Such a course of action would raise public awareness, improve the general opinion regarding pals (alot of sympathy is lost by images of blown up buses etc), and make israel seem unnessarily evil.
The rejection of violence would dramatically reduce the counter-pal argument. In a way, the israeli's can not make many concessions because it would look like "giving into terrorism" (or at least, this argument can be used, whilst pal's are violent).

Of course this is not a realistic opinion. But in an ideal world...


In contrast, the israeli's could simply recognise pal etc, give it full control of its own affairs etc.
this sounds osmuch like Oslo I dont even know that this needs a response. At ooslo the Palestinians did recognise borders (that is to say they recognised israel in 78 per cent of pre-1948 palestine) they arrested militants and there was a general lul n violence. The israeli response was to maintain the occupation and the hardships it imposed, expand the settlements and try to force the palestinains to negotiate on the remianing 22 per cent (ie barak's 'generous' offers)

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2006, 02:19 PM
yes i have to agree with the original post, support of them 95%, while they are probably the most honest and corruption-free member of the PLO, there fault lays in thet they refuse to accept israel as a neighbor, hence the lacking 5% above mentioned. If they were to give up this extremisim veiw, much as fatah did in the 70's-80's then they would be perfect (more-or-less)
Ah. So their position for an Islamic state is OK?

But about this "corruption" thing. It's a standard banner of rightist parties, and corruption scandals usually benefit the right or even far-right. We've partly seen this in Canada recently.

From a working-class persepective, the problem with capitalist politicians is not primarily that they are corrupt or morally degenerate as individuals, though they often are. The problem is that they represent the upper class - all their other problems, including the inevitable corruption of capitalist governments, flows from that.

Focusing primarily on corruption lends strength to rightist solutions, like Hamas' "Islam is the answer", and to dragging down working people into resentment and envy, which do not contribute to class-consciousness or finding a way forward.

[James]

Hardly, the kids just posing, not actually fighting (á la child soldiers in Africa.) I'm sure celebrations were wild amongst Palestinians when Hamas won thus an image like this isn't all that surprising or horrifying


Fucking hell.
You would give your child a gun? When my family and friends celebrate we pull a cracker. You think you should all hold guns?

Fair enough, whatever. different perceptions of parenthood. Must say though, you are "wierd" in the head.

+_ + +


this sounds osmuch like Oslo I dont even know that this needs a response. At ooslo the Palestinians did recognise borders (that is to say they recognised israel in 78 per cent of pre-1948 palestine) they arrested militants and there was a general lul n violence. The israeli response was to maintain the occupation and the hardships it imposed, expand the settlements and try to force the palestinains to negotiate on the remianing 22 per cent (ie barak's 'generous' offers)





My argument was that they stick to that tactic. Not resort to blowing people up.
Big difference.

[Severian]

James, giving tactical advice to people in other countries is always pretty pointless. They won't listen, there's no reason they should, and impossible to know the right tactics from thousands of miles away.

But in this case particularly, you're recommending they "stick to a tactic" which, as was just pointed out, didn't work when it was tried.

That's not to say the tactics of the 2nd intifada worked so great either. A better fundamental strategy - and not just particular tactics - is probably needed.

But it's just arrogant to think either you or I could know what it is.

[James]

thus the "Of course this is not a realistic opinion. But in an ideal world".
And i said, stick to it, not resort to violence if it doesn't produce results in the short term.

Of course my post is pointless. This website is on the whole "pointless".


I agree though. It is arrogant for me to think i know the solution. I don't pretend that i do. Hence the "in my humble opinion" and "this is not realistic". etc

[metalero]

The question is what does Hamas political victory represents for Palestinians and Israelis? The results of palestinian popular participation (despite the occupation) showed that palestinians are tired of living under inhuman conditions and the corruption of Al-fatah. Hamas, despite their tactics and rethoric, It's a political organization that has the support of the majority of palestinians and it's bounded to material conditions. Which are those conditions? the possibility of destroying the zionist Israeli state and replace it with a islamic theocracy? impossible. The possibility of moderating the religious part and demanding the end of the occupation and an independent palestinian state? very possible, in fact, they have lately called for a truce to stop attacks if Israel withdraws completely from West bank and gaza, not to form a islamic theocracy, but a free palestine state that's all palestinians wish. Besides, a group that is ready to negotiate with israel, thereby already recognizes the State of Israel.
If a popular conscience from the israelis push a new israeli government to stop the zionist policies and submission to imperialist interests, there could be a great oportunity for peace. By the way, demanding Hamas to disarm is as impossible as to demand Israel to disarm.

"On the Palestinian side: the very fact that Hamas is participating in elections that are based on the Oslo agreement proves that the Palestinian political system is moving in the direction of peace. On the face of it, the Hamas victory seems to be bad for peace. But the real result may be quite different: it may moderate the radical movement and make sure that any agreement reached will be solid and permanent.
On the Israeli side: the split in the Likud, the creation of Kadima, and the change in the Labor Party leadership all show that the Israeli political system is moving in the same general direction. The movement may be big or small--but the direction is clear"

http://www.counterpunch.org/avnery01272006.html

[The Grey Blur]

Fucking hell
Hell is a beurgeois figment of your imagination


You would give your child a gun?
No, probably because the little bastard would turn round and shoot me


When my family and friends celebrate we pull a cracker
I thought that was only at Xmas


You think you should all hold guns?
Or petrol-bombs, don't forget the petrol bombs...


Fair enough, whatever.
Like ya know; what-ever


different perceptions of parenthood.
Go argue with the Palestinian kid because you are making no sense whatsoever to me


Must say though, you are "wierd" in the head.
Well at least I know how to spell (makes quotation marks with fingers) "weird"


+_ + +
:blink: ...err, yeah...quite...

[Andy Bowden]

There are plenty of kids who dress up as soliders in the West on Halloween, encouraging militarism is prevalent in the USA/UK.

So dont be so quick to attack the Palestinians, from their pespective they are probably disgusted we give our kids action men of the people who have bombed their countries.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2006, 07:04 PM
thus the "Of course this is not a realistic opinion. But in an ideal world".
In an ideal world, there wouldn't be any oppression to fight against, would there?

[YKTMX]

I was thoroughly delighted about the election victory of the Hamas organisation.

I'm in full support of the Palestinian liberation struggle, I support suicide bombings and I don't recognise Israel's Right To Exist.

I hope that the Israelis and the Palestinians can't get along.

One small thing, 70% of this thread is pure bollocks, but this little comment from Severian:


From a working-class persepective

There is no such thing as a "working class perspective" in Palestine. The Palestinian economy doesn't exist, in so far as we call an economy "a collection of agents involved in productive activity". The Palestinians live in a cross between a glorified prison complex and a third world state.

Members who argue for a "working class alternative" are talking idealistic bollocks.

There might be a nominally "left" alternative to the Islamic movements for National liberation, but not a "working class" one.

I just thought someone needed to say this, lest some new members think they've walked onto "Zionist Left" or, its sister site, "Islamophobic Left".

[Phalanx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2006, 01:29 AM
I was thoroughly delighted about the election victory of the Hamas organisation.

I'm in full support of the Palestinian liberation struggle, I support suicide bombings and I don't recognise the Israel's Right To Exist.

I hope that the Israelis and the Palestinians can't get along.
I can't believe how stupid those comments are. You should be banned.


I support suicide bombings

I notice that your custom title says "For my class". Is it "for your class" to wish for suicide bombings on other working class people?

[YKTMX]

:lol:
Location Wisconsin, soon Israel

Oh dear, getting twitchy are we?


Is it "for your class" to wish for suicide bombings on other working class people?

The interests of my class is the national liberation of the Palestinian people and the destruction of the Zionist-Imperialist state.

I'm not going to submit myself to liberal posturing about "denouncing" terror.

I'll "denounce" terrorist attacks on Israel when the last Israeli soldier and illegal settlement have left Palestine. When the Palestinian people are not subject to torture, murder, degradation, "collective punishment" and allowed the right to return to land stolen from them by the Zionist militias, we can talk.

[Comrade Ben]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2006, 01:29 AM



From a working-class persepective

There is no such thing as a "working class perspective" in Palestine. The Palestinian economy doesn't exist, in so far as we call an economy "a collection of agents involved in productive activity". The Palestinians live in a cross between a glorified prison complex and a third world state.


So, what you say is that you don't believe in the actually established, economicaly sound, peace loving country, but you fully support the mismanaged, randomized, impoverished "nation", right? Are you stupid, or just an ignorant fool?

[YKTMX]

So, what you say is that you don't believe in the actually established, economicaly sound, peace loving country

Sorry, are you referring to Israel? I just want to make sure because you said "peace loving".


but you fully support the mismanaged, randomized, impoverished "nation", right?

Haha. I knew it, a complete Zionist. Notice the use of the quotation marks around the word nation.

As for your other descriptors, they're accurate, but you talk as if they're somehow naturally occuring phenomena, like the rain falling or cancer.

What condition do you presume Israel might be in if it had suffered the same fate as Palestine over the last decades?

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2006, 07:29 PM

From a working-class persepective

There is no such thing as a "working class perspective" in Palestine. The Palestinian economy doesn't exist, in so far as we call an economy "a collection of agents involved in productive activity". The Palestinians live in a cross between a glorified prison complex and a third world state.
In fact, economic activity does occur in the occupied territories, and the Palestinian population is divided into classes. People do not live entirely on aid from abroad - and if they did, my points about how Hamas' electoral victory will be its poltical downfall, would be even stronger! (Care to respond to those, BTW - my post of Jan 27 2006, 02:35 AM)

What's more, your support for bourgeois nationalism is not restricted to the Palestinian occupied territories, so why pretend it's based on an alleged nonexistence of classes there?

[Phalanx]

The interests of my class is the national liberation of the Palestinian people and the destruction of the Zionist-Imperialist state.

So you think that suicide bombings will actually help. You must be very ill-educated. Look what's happened in the last few years. Every time a suicide bomber detonates himself, Israel reacts with fury, and leads to further clampdowns. Suicide bombings don't help the cause one bit.


I'm not going to submit myself to liberal posturing about "denouncing" terror.

So you'll submit yourself to the 'lets-kill-innocents-indiscriminately' mentality?


Oh dear, getting twitchy are we?

I want to go to Israel/Palestine to help, not cause further wounds.

[YKTMX]

(Care to respond to those, BTW - my post of Jan 27 2006, 02:35 AM)


To be honest, I was going to give you the opportunity to disown it before I did so. But it seems you don't wish to. Still, considering your disgraceful attacks on the Iraqi resistance, I should have anticipated such views.


Now that they've won the election, they proposed a coalition government with Fatah - which Fatah refused.


Hamas intend to take power, quite rightly. The reason they've proposed a coalition with Fatah is because:

a) They wish to see a United Palestinian people, and therefore a Palestinian people more able to liberate itself

b) They know that Israel won't negotiate with them, were as they will with the Vichy element in Fatah.

The Israelis have said they will only meet with Hamas if they "give up violence", which is Orwellian nonsense, obviously. The second condition is they "recognise" divine Israel's Right To Exist, which is a political impossibility, since that existence is based on murder and Palestinian subjecation.

So I personally find the diplomatic impasse we find ourselves in rather helpful. It illuminates the political landscape there. We are no longer under the impression that a peace between the slave and the slavemaster is possible, because it's clear now that neither side desires it (the Israelis have never desired it, Fatah has tended to).


The PA cannot function without U.S. and European aid.

As you suggest, Hamas is a well funded organisation. They can provide more, and better, social services to the Palestinian people than decades of "aid" can. If the EU and the US want to pull their money from the PA, then they will have to live with the political and diplomatic consequences.

Do you think they want to see Palestinians dying on the streets from hunger because they voted for the wrong guys? I doubt it.


And Israel will retaliate unrestrained for any new Hamas attacks, both against the Hamas leadership and with collective punishment of the Palestinian people.

The Palestinian people can't be conduct their national liberation struggle in ways which the Israelis find acceptable. The Israelis will always find excuses to assert their dominance and liquidate a collection of random civilians, always.

We can't conduct the anti-Zionist struggle afraid of how Zionism will react.


Hamas will either have to compromise and collaborate, or its leadership and the Palestinian people will both pay a heavy price.


I don't accept those options. Subjucate or die is not a socialist response to the anti-imperialist struggle.

We offer solidarity to the Palestinians in whatever attempts they make to free themselves.


What's more, your support for bourgeois nationalism is not restricted to the Palestinian occupied territories, so why pretend it's based on an alleged nonexistence of classes there?

Hamas operates across all number of Muslim nations, so I don't see how they can be in any sense bourgeois "nationalist", but never mind.

Tell me, what other "bourgeois nationalist" struggles do I support?

[Comrade Ben]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2006, 01:56 AM


but you fully support the mismanaged, randomized, impoverished "nation", right?

Haha. I knew it, a complete Zionist. Notice the use of the quotation marks around the word nation.


Of course I'm a zionst. Zionist's definition is
"Zi·on·ism n.
A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel.:"

I am a modern Zionist. I am concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel, since I am a citizen of Israel by birth right. I am against, morally, the idea of blowing yourself up, and anyone who stands by, because a hundred some years ago, somebody did something mean to your great great grandfather. What a senseless waste of a human life. Mohammed would NOT be happy with the sons of Ishmael.

[YKTMX]

So you think that suicide bombings will actually help.

Not in all cases, but I'm not going to tell Palestinians that they shouldn't do it.


You must be very ill-educated.

Possibly, though I'm intrigued as to how my level of formal education (Economics/Politics undergraduate at Glasgow University) pertains to my views on the self annihilation of the oppressed.


Every time a suicide bomber detonates himself, Israel reacts with fury, and leads to further clampdowns.

But, you see, this is such a blatantly Israeli/Imperialist view of the whole conflict, one which is offered by the Zionist press and one which you have obviously not found cause to doubt.

It's not true that Israel "stays out" when there are no Palestinian retaliations (like suicide bombings). There are daily and ongoing and continuing violent incursions into Palestinian land every day, regardless of Palestinian reistance activity. The diffirence is that the News doesn't cover them. It only covers them after a suicide bombing. I won't insult your intelligence by telling you why they do this.


So you'll submit yourself to the 'lets-kill-innocents-indiscriminately' mentality?

I'd rather not see innocent Israelis die. But I understand that the Palestinians use the weapons they have at their disposal to respond to the Israelis. Those weapons happen to be low grade explosives and people willing to martyr themselves. They use these weapons to hit "soft" Israeli targets, which are often, sadly, civilian targets. It's a neccessary evil.

If some foreign power wants to give the Palestinians F 16's and tanks, then great!

The PA can fire rockets at Mossad buildings and other Israeli military political and military stuctures.

Until then...


I want to go to Israel/Palestine to help, not cause further wounds.

That's beautiful and touching.

Good luck.

[Phalanx]

(YouKnowTheyMurderedX)

We can't conduct the anti-Zionist struggle afraid of how Zionism will react.

But you also can't conduct an anti-expansionist struggle when you know exactly what they're going to do next. To most people, that would probably tell them that they need to change what they're doing.

[Phalanx]

But, you see, this is such a blatantly Israeli/Imperialist view of the whole conflict, one which is offered by the Zionist press and one which you have obviously not found cause to doubt.

I don't understand how that is at all Imperialist. It's true, whenever a suicide bomber hits Israel, the military cracks down especially harshly. True, they are in the West Bank every day, but the worst attacks come after a suicide bomber strikes.


They use these weapons to hit "soft" Israeli targets, which are often, sadly, civilian targets. It's a neccessary evil.

I really don't see how killing civilians is "necessary".


If some foreign power wants to give the Palestinians F 16's and tanks, then great!

Well, the Soviet Union supplied arms to Israel's neighbors, and they used them against Israel. At that time, Israel was getting many weapons from France and WWII vintage weapons. So, Egypt, Syria, and Jordan had better weapons compared with Israel. And Israel still beat them.

I don't see how supplying more weapons into the region will help the peace process.


Possibly, though I'm intrigued as to how my level of formal education (Economics/Politics undergraduate at Glasgow University) pertains to my views on the self annihilation of the oppressed.

Well, at least to me, teachers should show students how to be critical of any news avaliable to them. So, maybe your professors at Glasgow failed to do so.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Here's a question for those that still want to swing from the balls of either the Palestinian fanatics or the Zionist zealots: Who gives a fuck what happens between two governments that wish to impose religious rule over the masses?

Wake the fuck up.

Free the people from their religious, political and economical rulers and we won't have discuss this bullshit any longer.

It also saves us from seeing "leftists" support butchery and savagery in the name of absurd superstitious ideologies.

In addition, this thread reeks of nationalism.



P.S.

Fuck Palestine and fuck Isreal.

[Phalanx]

Wow, that post contributed much and set realistic goals for everyone. You've solved the entire crisis.

[James]

I actually rather liked RAF's post. For once.

!

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2006, 08:23 PM
Hamas intend to take power, quite rightly. The reason they've proposed a coalition with Fatah is because:

a) They wish to see a United Palestinian people, and therefore a Palestinian people more able to liberate itself

b) They know that Israel won't negotiate with them, were as they will with the Vichy element in Fatah.
Oh. Hamas proposed the coalition government, in part, because othewise Israel won't negotiate with them?

The problem with this theory is, Hamas' stated position is they won't negotiate with Israel - under anything like current conditions. So why would they do anything in order to get them to negotiate?

But let's suppose you're right. That's exactly the kind of weaseling I'm talking about - Hamas gets all righteous about how they won't negotiate with Israel, so instead they give some "Vichy element" a share of power so they can negotiate for Hamas.


As you suggest, Hamas is a well funded organisation. They can provide more, and better, social services to the Palestinian people than decades of "aid" can.

Thank you Ronald Reagan. Private charity as a substitute for public social services, huh?

As with Reagan, this is not realistic - Hamas' charity budget is not comparable, nor capable of serving everyone - and of course Washington is working to cut off fund-raising for "terrorist" organizations as well. And you seem to realize this, switching to another argument:


If the EU and the US want to pull their money from the PA, then they will have to live with the political and diplomatic consequences.

Do you think they want to see Palestinians dying on the streets from hunger because they voted for the wrong guys? I doubt it

Why do you doubt it? Washington threatens to do it to various countries all the time, and sometimes actually does do it. They did it to Iraq for over a decade.

We'll see who's right in short order...in fact we're already beginning to see.

In today's news, the EU just agreed with the U.S. on not aiding any Hamas government that doesn't toe the line.. Additionally, Israel has announced it will no longer hand over customs duties it collected for the PA. Don't imagine that Israel will be handing over control of the border posts...or worrying about the "political and diplomatic consequences."

This is a prime reason Israel's been carrying out the withdrawals recently and the negotiations over the years...to end their financial responsibility for the social well-being of Palestinians, while continuing to de facto rule over them. Hamas' victory creates the perfect conditions for this hand-washing.

Washington and the European powers may follow Carter's recommendation, and increase funding of aid groups. But that just leaves Palestinians more directly dependent on imperialist charity...highlighting Hamas' inability to either protect or serve them.

People voted out Fatah because of its inability to do so, you may remember. An incapacity which was highlighted, not relieved, by the operations of Hamas' charities.

(Carter also pointed out that U.S. law forbids funding of a Hamas government, so that's not even a question.)


I don't accept those options. Subjucate or die is not a socialist response to the anti-imperialist struggle.

We offer solidarity to the Palestinians in whatever attempts they make to free themselves.

Slogans are not a substitute for assessing the situation, nor will they stop Israeli missiles. Hamas will "subjucate or die" - more exactly, they may collaborate - Washington's preferred option - :"We want to see them afloat, we want them to have a government and we want the next government to deal with the reality that it's got to govern," said a senior administration official"NYT (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/30/international/middleeast/30aid-cnd.html?hp&ex=1138683600&en=de23c139b1348bcf&ei=5094&partner=homepage)

Or they will be dealt heavy blows, physically...and this time, politically. They will lose support.

It'd be a different situation if the struggle was on an upswing; but the second intifada has already been largely fought to a standstill.

You jump up to say there can be no "working-class perspective" but then use "socialist response"? Certainly Hamas' response will not be socialist. They will miss political options which another kind of leadership might find.


[b]Tell me, what other "bourgeois nationalist" struggles do I support?

Oh, come on. All of them. "How can it be reactionary if it's against imperialism," you said.

And what is this crap - something can't be nationalism if it runs across current borders? So does Zionism, remember?

Pan-Islamism is not internationalism...or progressive in any way.

[YKTMX]

The problem with this theory is, Hamas' stated position is they won't negotiate with Israel - under anything like current conditions. So why would they do anything in order to get them to negotiate?


No, I'm saying Hamas knows Israel won't negotiate with them, and Hamas doesn't wish to negotiate with Israel, but they realise that negoiation is still needful, because Israel has power over even mundane things like Palestinian water supply. That is, "negotiation" is neccessary even if it's not to talk about "peace". So Hamas asked Fateh to come in.


Thank you Ronald Reagan. Private charity as a substitute for public social services, huh?


Please.

I was merely making the point that the PA can't be held totally to ransom because lots of the Palestinians basic services are provided by Hamas.


Certainly Hamas' response will not be socialist.

I was talking about our response. I was saying that your reccomendation, subjucate or die, is not a properly solidaristic one.

The problem with your "type" of leftism is that it's desperate to lecture the heathen masses on how they should conduct their struggles. To the extent that you've proposed they orientate their struggle around a social class which doesn't exist in their society. It's like someone trying to rouse a "peasant" militia in New York City.

As I've said before, I don't attach "conditions" to my solidarity with people defending themselves from unending slaughter.



All of them. "How can it be reactionary if it's against imperialism," you said.


Did I say that? I doubt I would have put it as crudely as that, but I'll take your word for it.

As for supporting "all" bourgeois nationalist struggles. Would you like to offer say 3 examples?

Thanks.


And what is this crap - something can't be nationalism if it runs across current borders? So does Zionism, remember?


Yes, I remember. The whole "problem" with Zionism is that it's based on the false notion that the Jewish people are a "nation", some kind of scattered people, dispersed across the Globe against their will, instead of what they are, which is a religious grouping.

So, once again, maybe you'll stop evading the issue. How can Hamas be "bourgeois nationalist" if they operate in a variety of Muslim nations.

Is it possible you're using a description because you think it sounds plausible, without thinking about whether it has any analytical value?

If you feel the need to have a go at them, then perhaps just "fundamentalist" would do.

[metalero]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 30 2006, 10:47 PM
Here's a question for those that still want to swing from the balls of either the Palestinian fanatics or the Zionist zealots: Who gives a fuck what happens between two governments that wish to impose religious rule over the masses?

Wake the fuck up.

Free the people from their religious, political and economical rulers and we won't have discuss this bullshit any longer.

It also saves us from seeing "leftists" support butchery and savagery in the name of absurd superstitious ideologies.

In addition, this thread reeks of nationalism.



P.S.

Fuck Palestine and fuck Isreal.
things like this trying to simplify the conflict to a clash between fanatic religious show the ignorance among many leftists who don't have a clue about how imperialism works, the effects of colonization, resistance against opression or a simply recognition of human rights.

[Atlas Swallowed]

The extremists on both sides want total victory at whatever cost. The extremists in power on both sides will be the end of any progress towards peace. The Likud and Hamas are no good for anyone unless they lust for war.

[FULL METAL JACKET]

Originally posted by metalero+Feb 1 2006, 12:07 AM--> (metalero @ Feb 1 2006, 12:07 AM)
Comrade [email protected] 30 2006, 10:47 PM
Here's a question for those that still want to swing from the balls of either the Palestinian fanatics or the Zionist zealots: Who gives a fuck what happens between two governments that wish to impose religious rule over the masses?

Wake the fuck up.

Free the people from their religious, political and economical rulers and we won't have discuss this bullshit any longer.

It also saves us from seeing "leftists" support butchery and savagery in the name of absurd superstitious ideologies.

In addition, this thread reeks of nationalism.



P.S.

Fuck Palestine and fuck Isreal.
things like this trying to simplify the conflict to a clash between fanatic religious show the ignorance among many leftists who don't have a clue about how imperialism works, the effects of colonization, resistance against opression or a simply recognition of human rights. [/b]
But don't they want to impose religious rule over the land? On both sides?

[The Grey Blur]

No, and Comrade RAF is an idiot for thinking so

[James]

RAF is a "fucking idiot for thinking" that hamas (whom we must assume to be a reasonable representation of a significant number of pal's) and co want to "impose religious rule over the land"?

I'm not to sure about that old chum.


Hamas ideology combines pan-Arab religious and fundamentalist principles with radical Palestinian aims. It insists that "all of Palestine — from the (Jordan) river to the (Mediterranean) sea is holy Arab territory" and that the "liberation" of all of that territory, not just the "West Bank" and Gaza — but all of it, including Tel Aviv and Haifa and, of course, Jerusalem is the immutable aim of the movement. Autonomy for the Palestinian Arabs, as envisioned in the Camp David Accords, or even a Palestinian state, as proposed by the PLO, are totally unacceptable or at best just tactical steps in the "liberation of all of Palestine."

http://www.factsandlogic.org/ad_43.html



It reflects the decision of the radical Islamists, headed by the late Ahmad Yassin, to add a Palestinian national aspect to the da'wah (changing Palestinian society by means of indoctrination, preaching and education, the modus operandi of the Muslim Brotherhood).
...
According to Hamas ideology, the Palestinian problem is basically religious and therefore cannot be solved by any political compromise . Hamas claims that the land of Palestinian, “from the [Jordan] river to the [Mediterranean] sea” is consecrated to Islam and none of it can be given up, especially Jerusalem.
...
As far as Hamas is concerned, as long as Palestinians (within Israel and the territories) live under the “occupation” they are obliged to oppose it through a jihad (holy war), that is, an uncompromising armed insurrection against Israel . However, Hamas also recognizes the necessity of temporary tactical cease-fires ( hudnas)

http://www.intelligence.org.il/eng/sib/8_04/pto.htm
(this site contains information on quite a few armed groups: islam is present in the vast majority - if not all)



Hamas success in winning quick support among the Muslim population of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank was due in large part to its Islamic origins and its earlier activities as a religious and charitable institution.

...

The ideology of Hamas is a synthesis of pan-Arab Islamic religious ideals and Palestinian nationalism. Hamas states its intent to establish an Islamic state in Palestine and its covenant draws heavily upon Islamic ideology and Quranic verses. The PLO charter, on the other hand, is a secular document with a call to Palestinian nationalism. Senior PLO officials have said that they will install a western style democratic form of government in an independent Palestine. 10


please note, hamas are the ones who got more votes.

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/931014-hamas.htm


blah blah blah
I think you get the general idea. i.e. no, it is not RAF that is the "fucking idiot".


I can't believe i take RAF's side again!

[Andy Bowden]

I dont think any class counscious Socialist could, or should support Hamas, or any other Islamist movement. Events in Iran, with Khomeini slaughtering the Communists, and events in Iraq today with Al-Sadrs thugs attacking students and trade unionists shows that whatever misconceptions Socialists have about political Islam, the Islamists are 100% clear on their attitude to us - we should be killed.

Hamas have indeed carried out an effective network of Schooling, health and other Social services. But we should not let this cloud our analysis of them - they have killed homosexuals in Palestine, have attacked women for not wearing the veil, attacked leftist PFLP members and defended Ahmadinejads comments on the Holocaust.

Put simply, they are to the right of the Tories on Social issues.

Hamas' tactics of suicide bombing should not be given support by Socialists. Some comrades have said we cannot "lecture" the Palestinians on the methods they use. Well I say that we are Socialists, not cheerleders and it is our duty to tell the truth to our class - and that is that these suicide bombs make no distinction between the IOF and working-class Jews - part of our class by the way, remember?

These bombs have not took the Palestinian struggle one step forward. The Gaza pullout was a tactical retreat, nothing more. Hamas do not have the neccessary tactics or plan to liberate Palestine.

I agree that Israel is a nation which is built upon the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians - and in the long run, like the Ulster statelet and the Brit Union - should be dismantled. But the only way to find a binational state that works is to have the solidarity and unity of both ethnic groups. Suicide bombings, will quite clearly not do that.

[metalero]

everyone of us would wish Israel stop the occupation, demolition of palestinian houses, permanent curfew, indiscriminate detentions, systematic tortures and killing of palestinians so Hamas and other islamic radical organizations stop the suicide bombings. But this includes a radical change of policy from the Israeli side who are the ones imposing the conditions that create the perfect environment for resentment, frustration and wish for inmolation. For many years Israel has used the tough hand against the palestinians, persecuted the leaders of Hamas and reinforcing the humiliation against the palestinians, and the asnwer has been resistance, suicide bombings and the election of Hamas. Why don't they try leaving the palestinians alone, stop the occupation and allowing the palestinians to form an independent state? wouldn't that be the shortest way to reach peace? or are there imperialist and colonialist interests beyond the "religious mirror" the conflict has and which many leftist see?

[The Grey Blur]

RAF is a "fucking idiot for thinking"
When did I say this?


I'm not to sure about that old chum.
I am. Hamas were elected because they vowed to erase corruption and set up a workable social system, not because they are going to perpetuate a Holy War against Israel.

I despise Hamas' Religious stance but I am also mature enough to realize why they were elected.

The reason I described Comrade RAF as an idiot is because of the following:


Here's a question for those that still want to swing from the balls of either the Palestinian fanatics or the Zionist zealots:
Here's a question for you: who took this stance?


Who gives a fuck what happens between two governments that wish to impose religious rule over the masses?
I don't think anyone has indicated support for Hamas, most have simply stated support for the Palestinian liberation movement.


Wake the fuck up.
I think you need to open your eyes and actually read a thread, not just skim through it


Free the people from their religious, political and economical rulers and we won't have discuss this bullshit any longer.
Obviously that is what we Socialists want but that doesn't mean we shouldn't debate current Political events as well


It also saves us from seeing "leftists" support butchery and savagery in the name of absurd superstitious ideologies.
I'll support whatever "butchery and savagery" I think is justified

In addition, your ideas reek of Pacifiscism

P.S.

Fuck you

[James]

When did I say this?

Ah i'm sorry. I don't know where i got that bit from.



I am.


Go back and read what you are replying to. You challenge the claim that hamas want to have religious rule etc etc.

[James]

also look at the reaction to a cartoon published in european papers.
Can't deny the significant role of religion in the region.

[YKTMX]

I dont think any class counscious Socialist could, or should support Hamas, or any other Islamist movement.

Let's be clear: I wouldn't have urged a vote for Hamas in the elections. I would have hoped the PFLP slate did better. My point is it's not useful to accept the imperialist narrative about this election result being a "setback" for the peace process, because:

a) There isn't a meaningful process anyway

b) Any process is based on the unilateral needs of Israeli expanionism, not any real desire for "peace", so who's in control of the PA isn't really important, except for propaganda purposes.


the Islamists are 100% clear on their attitude to us - we should be killed.


Political Islam has lots of currents. It's simply not true that they are a monolithic bloc of hand chopping fascists. In most Arab countries the Left is discredited because of their complicity with the corrupt regimes, and the Islamists are admired for their anti-regime/corruption stance (see Palestine).

So, as with all things, a Marxist shouldn't just look at the rhetoric of the Islamists (at time reactionary, I agree), but we should look at what "social forces" they represent.


they have killed homosexuals in Palestine, have attacked women for not wearing the veil, attacked leftist PFLP members and defended Ahmadinejads comments on the Holocaust.


I'm not defending their superstition. I'm saying that we should realise that they represent a real voice of the oppressed, and unless we want to side with the wrong people, we shouldn't write off the whole Muslim world simply because they don't like Bikinis.


Hamas' tactics of suicide bombing should not be given support by Socialists.

You do know that PFLP (a Marxist organisation) also uses suicide bombings?

click (http://www.icej.org/cgi-local/view.cgi?type=specials&artid=2004/01/04/876161355)

This is what I'm saying, people think that suicide bombing is just a religious act of murder, when it isn't.


and that is that these suicide bombs make no distinction between the IOF and working-class Jews - part of our class by the way, remember?


Oh right, so I suppose you didn't support the struggle of the NLF because they planted bombs in cafes in Hanoi, when they knew innocent Vietnamese would be killed? Or the Algerians in their struggle against the French, for that matter.

Also, with regard to Hamas killing "socialists", I doubt many members want to be reminded of the NLF leadership murdering Vietnamese Trotskyist leaders.

Still, History can't suit everyone.

My point is that people have these idealised versions of past liberation struggles, and so the Palestinian struggle can never "match up".


Hamas do not have the neccessary tactics or plan to liberate Palestine.


What tactics would you suggest?


But the only way to find a binational state that works is to have the solidarity and unity of both ethnic groups.

Fine, I agree, the question is how to get it.

[travisdandy2000]

;) You people act like this a stuggle between two legitimate states! Isreal is an occupying army propping up an imperialist colony! It's isn't Plaestine vs. Isreal, it's the natives vs. invaders from europe. Regardless of your personal opinion of suicide bombing, you don't have the right to critizce the national liberation struggle of another people. The Palestinians deserve unconditonal support however they choose to resist. This is the litmus test of any true revolutionary.

[Atlas Swallowed]

Well said, except the part about suicide bombers(who do more harm to thier cause than good) Palestinians or any other people should not be judged on the acions of extremist zealots. It is not a war in the classic sense it is an occupation, that simple. How someone can support the State of Israel and concider themselves a socialist is beyond me, unless they believe in selective socialism.

Comrade RAF if you have such contempt for the subject than stay fuck out of it. Your over simplfication and inaccuracies are fucking annoying.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 01:10 PM
So, as with all things, a Marxist shouldn't just look at the rhetoric of the Islamists (at time reactionary, I agree), but we should look at what "social forces" they represent.
I agree. For example, their rhetoric about representing the oppressed and the poor should not be taken at face value. Even their rhetoric about opposing imperialism does not always match the reality.

Social force? These are bourgeois parties, more or less rightist in character. You are right that there is variety among them.

There is variety in exactly how far right they are.

[leftist resistance]

It is not a war in the classic sense it is an occupation, that simple.

Furthermore,Palestine is broken down into sectors around Israel.It is like a bacteria being broken down by a phagocyte.nucleated settlements here and there with the area around Gaza Strip the only visible sign that Palestine is quite another state than Israel.
Most of the palestinians live in refugee camps.refugee camps.in their own land

[YKTMX]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 09:19 AM
I agree. For example, their rhetoric about representing the oppressed and the poor should not be taken at face value. Even their rhetoric about opposing imperialism does not always match the reality.

Social force? These are bourgeois parties, more or less rightist in character. You are right that there is variety among them.

There is variety in exactly how far right they are.
That's such a poor analysis.

If they're simply a "right wing" bourgeois party, then why do they receive so much support from the opressed in the Occupied terrorities?

In fact, most of their leadings cadres are from backgrounds similar to that of other petty bourgeois national resistance movements, like the 26th of July movement, or Mao's army in China.

In fact, we might draw other comparisons. Comrades won't need reminding of Fidel's antipathy to homosexuality and his disgusting ("come to the socialist fatherland, where we put the terminally ill in concentration camps") attitude to AIDS. Or, for that matter, the general patriarchal attitudes of the Cuban movement.

You're just using "Bourgeois" as a catch-all phrase for politics you don't like.

[YKTMX]

Really, really interesting interview (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-2012808,00.html) with one the Hamas movement's leadership in the Times.

Particuarly relevant to lots of the things we've been discussing.

You can read it all for yourselves, but here's a few choice cuts.


On giving up Hamas's weapons:

"Why, why do we have to give up our weapons? If Israel comes back to occupy our land, will your country come to defend our people?

"Why do we have to put up our guns while every country everywhere has in additional to a political system a strong military system in order to protect their homeland, their interests and their people.

So why do you consider us a unique phenomenon that we have to keep the Israeli border, to keep the Israeli aggression against our people, to keep our people inside Israeli jails without resistance?"




How does Hamas compare with the Taleban?

"I will give you a personal example. My wife was a teacher, until the Israelis attacked my house and broke her back. My first child, a daughter, is an engineer. My second (his son Khaled) was studying for a Masters degree at Salford University in Finance until he was killed by the Israelis. The third, a daughter, is an English teacher. The third woman has graduated from accounting high school. The younger three boys are candidates for university. So I think this is a good answer to your question."

[LtnMarxist]

Originally posted by [B
Andy Bowden,Jan 25 2006, 03:57 PM]Socialists should not support Hamas. The fact they are anti-occupation is irrelevant, if they got into Govt all secular left forces in Palestine would meet a grisly end.[/b]
Comrade you are wrong. When a nation is under attack from an imperialist power, such as the Palestinians have been for decades, we must support their right to determine their own destiny. Hamas is not the most progressive group, and it isn't the ideal organization to have in power. But they are militant resisters of imperialism and this we support. Hamas was democratically elected by the Palestinian people and we cannot join the ruling class and fuel the attacks that are being waged against the Palestinian people's political expression. We can be critical of Hamas but we must, as socialist support the Palestinian people's right to self-determination.

And in response to a comment made earlier by ReD_ReBeL:
I take an Internationalist approach the the palestine-Isreal conflict, i support independence for the Palestians but i do not support any of the resistance groups. How can you support the independence of an oppressed people, but not support their right to defend themselves against the vicious attacks of their oppressors? LOL. What do you think you can sit at a round table with the person who prospers off of your oppression and ask your slave master to let you go free? What fantasy world are you living in?

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by atlas+--> (atlas)Comrade RAF if you have such contempt for the subject than stay fuck out of it. Your over simplfication and inaccuracies are fucking annoying.[/b]

Just what I wanted for christmas! More outbursts from the little rompipalle leccacazzi here on the board.

I'm definitely barking up the right tree here.



Originally posted by James+--> (James)Ah i'm sorry. I don't know where i got that bit from. [/b]

You got it from right here:


"Rage" against the "machine" Feb 1 [email protected] 01:20 PM

No, and Comrade RAF is an idiot for thinking so

There is really not much you can say to a group of kids that have this silly fantasy about running throught he street picking up arms to defend the masses against tyrrany.

This adoloscent fantasy has severely clouded the judgement of these kids; they actually think that somehow the nutjob muslims are just going to "disppear into the moonlight" if the Palestinians win.

Oh, to be young and naive again.

Well what are you gonna do eh? Boys will be boys! :lol:


LtnMarxist
We can be critical of Hamas but we must, as socialist support the Palestinian people's right to self-determination.

It's a good thing I'm not a socialist, it would get my balls twisted to no end to be forced to support the reactionary ideology of primative clerics just because you say so.

[James]

It feels wierd to be "at one" with RAF!
I can't see it RAF. Did he edit his post?

[Atlas Swallowed]

Originally posted by Comrade RAF+Feb 3 2006, 06:08 PM--> (Comrade RAF @ Feb 3 2006, 06:08 PM)
atlas
Comrade RAF if you have such contempt for the subject than stay fuck out of it. Your over simplfication and inaccuracies are fucking annoying.

Just what I wanted for christmas! More outbursts from the little rompipalle leccacazzi here on the board.

I'm definitely barking up the right tree here.



This adoloscent fantasy has severely clouded the judgement of these kids; they actually think that somehow the nutjob muslims are just going to "disppear into the moonlight" if the Palestinians win.


[/b]
Thanks for the Italian curse words I will stick with English you cum lapping balless little ****.

Do believe all moslems are nuts? Have you ever talked to any Moslems? Nice steriotypical racist statement asswad. Why don't you go out and join Homeland Security and you can protect us from the boogeyman Moslems :rolleyes:

If 35 is an adolecent to you it is time to stop playing Dungeons and Dragons and fantasizing you are an elf :blink:

[bcbm]

There is really not much you can say to a group of kids that have this silly fantasy about running throught he street picking up arms to defend the masses against tyrrany.

Says someone named after the Rote Armee Fraktion? ;)

In any case, although Hamas disgusts me, I think their victory will eventually turn out to be a good thing. They're currently faced with a number of difficult positions. They want to maintain a hard-line against Israel, but neither the majority of Palestinians nor the majority of Hamas supporters want this and so they will need to modify their line or be removed from power. If they do modify their line, there will probably be some splintering among those in power in the party, further undermining them. Either way, their military wing is probably on a long-term stand still and that's good for everyone.

They also dislike Islamic Jihad, I think, and will probably crack down on them and their military antics in the following months. Or Islamic Jihad will try to pick a fight with Hamas. Either way, the Islamist reactionaries end up killing each other and splitting their support base and party line.


Well said, except the part about suicide bombers(who do more harm to thier cause than good) Palestinians or any other people should not be judged on the acions of extremist zealots.

Even the secular and leftist Palestinian resistance groups have used suicide bombings.

[LtnMarxist]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 3 2006, 01:08 PM
It's a good thing I'm not a socialist, it would get my balls twisted to no end to be forced to support the reactionary ideology of primative clerics just because you say so.
If you wanted to smoke a cigarette and your friend told you not to because it was bad for you, they have made a suggestion that you can either agree with or not agree with. But if you make the final decision to smoke that cigarette, your friend can't then smack it out of your mouth, because they still disagree with you. That would be a sign of disrespect to you. But then if you smoke cigarettes and realize that it is bad for your body and it is affecting you. You can then make a decision as to whether you won't to stop smoking them. Your friend the whole way through can tell you that it’s bad and have influence with enough convincing, but that process and decision has to be gone through by you at the end of the day.

And anarchist who always claim they want the strongest possible form of democracy and what all to be heard and they don't want elite bureaucracy making decision, to then criticize the decision of a democratic election, is contradictory.

[The Grey Blur]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 06:23 PM
It feels wierd to be "at one" with RAF!
I can't see it RAF. Did he edit his post?
No I did not, those who are correct have no need to resort to such immature tactics - I said:


No, and Comrade RAF is an idiot for thinking so

Not


RAF is a fucking idiot for thinking so

As you said

Still, that's your opinion man ( and I applaud you for it) :)

[James]

hey, i don't know. I thought you had said it, hence the quote. I wouldn't have purposely made it up - why? Well the above posts show why that is silly.

Either way though, going back to the origional posts regarding "idiocy", i think it still stands that it was you, and not RAF, who was wrong.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by Atlas swallowed+--> (Atlas swallowed) Thanks for the Italian curse words I will stick with English you cum lapping balless little ****.[/b]

Prego fissa. With all this hostility, it feels like I'm married. Madone di mia.


Do believe all moslems are nuts? Have you ever talked to any Moslems? Nice steriotypical racist statement asswad. Why don't you go out and join Homeland Security and you can protect us from the boogeyman Moslems

Yes, Muslims, like all other reactionary superstitious groups are nuts.

Period.

In addition my little gumdrop, it's impossible to make a "racist statement" about a religious ideology.

Now if you were to accuse me of making a predjudiced statement about a religious ideology, I would have to say guilty as charged!


Originally posted by Blck Bnr Blk [email protected]
Says someone named after the Rote Armee Fraktion?

It's too late to change in now you zany kat you; I have to protect my rep on the street...Yo.


Ltn Marxist
And anarchist who always claim they want the strongest possible form of democracy and what all to be heard and they don't want elite bureaucracy making decision, to then criticize the decision of a democratic election, is contradictory.

In case you were referring to me, I must tell you I'm not an Anarchist. Who's knows who you were talking to though; for the most part your entire post was non-sensical.

[travisdandy2000]

MARXISM-LENINISM CLEARLY DEMANDS THE UNCONDITONAL SUPPORT OF ALL NATIONAL LIBERATION STRUGGLES. You don't like Hamas fine! The Paleistian people do, and it's not your bussiness to tell them how to conduct their struggle. If you don't support any national liberation struggle regardless of it's nature you are directly supporting the imperialist. I've never been to Plaestine, I've met some Palestianians though, and guess what if Isreal shoots your six year old for throwing rocks you get a bill for the bullet used to do it. I am in no position to tell the people of Palestine what stage their struggle is in and what tactics they should use, I just know that they must win, and whatever path they take offer them my unconditonal support and solidarity. The argument from RAF is assernine, so the Palestinains should revolt against their own movement while they are in the middle of a war for liberation? That's like saying the Russians should have overthrown Stalin while the nazis were driving for Stalingrad! Once Isreali occupation is done away with we can start to question the resistiance. FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA PALESTINE MUST BE FREE! ONE STATE FREE AND ARAB!

[travisdandy2000]

Soory for all the sputtering and misspellings in the last post. I've had a drink and the Palestine issue is one I have much passion for. It is a litmus test in the classic Lenninist sense, you support Palestine or you support Isreal and are not a revolutionary. Period. I hope the Isreali Communist Party dies in a bloody explosion. There is no such thing as an Isreali civilian. Marxism is conflict.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by Comrade RAF+Feb 3 2006, 07:16 PM--> (Comrade RAF @ Feb 3 2006, 07:16 PM)

Blck Bnr Blk Gn
Says someone named after the Rote Armee Fraktion?

It's too late to change in now you zany kat you; I have to protect my rep on the street...Yo. [/b]
Yo, I dig. Mad respek, aiiight?

[Atlas Swallowed]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 4 2006, 01:16 AM


Yes, Muslims, like all other reactionary superstitious groups are nuts.

Period.

In addition my little gumdrop, it's impossible to make a "racist statement" about a religious ideology.


I am a big gumdrop and Im not yours :)

I will not bother discussing relgion with an atheist, not overly religious myself but faith like anything else is good in moderation.

Yeah, it is not racisist but silly just the same to say someone is nuts because of thier faith. None of the Moslems I have encountered on a personal level in my life I would concider nuts.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by travis+--> (travis)It is a litmus test in the classic Lenninist sense, you support Palestine or you support Isreal and are not a revolutionary. Period.[/b]

Or you support neither and refrain from becoming a reactionary "revolutionary".

Period.


atlas

Yeah, it is not racisist but silly just the same to say someone is nuts because of thier faith. None of the Moslems I have encountered on a personal level in my life I would concider nuts.

I'm sure you would change your tune if someone blew themselves up for Harvey the rabbit.

Perhaps to a little scattin' from the fog himself. :lol:

[( R )evolution]

I love your sig Comrade RAF that is so true and funny do I have permission to put it in mine?

[YSR]

Hm. Well, at the risk of becoming a fence sitter (as such people were lambasted earlier in this thread) I must do so.


Originally posted by Comrade RAF
Or you support neither and refrain from becoming a reactionary "revolutionary".

Period.

I think RAF makes a valid point about placing ourselves in a dispute between two religious rightist movements. I must profess moderate ignorance to the situation in terms of the activeness of any radical leftist movements in Isreal/Palestine. Previous posters have discussed how these movements have been disgraced, at least in Palestine. I don't about Isreal's revolutionary movements.

I guess radicals must consider which is more important: national liberation of an oppressed people or revolutionary leftism? I'm glad that I don't live there, because that's a really tough decision.

Either way, I'd like to remind those who believe that Hamas is acting in best interests of the Palestinians by providing basic social services that they are only half right. True, they are acting to immediately help those who need it, but their aims are considerably more reactionary-influenced. Nationalism and its ideological corallary fascism have both been introduced as working-class movements. Mussolini used to be a socialist. He "kept the trains on schedule" and short-sighted workers responded to that. Just because Hamas is giving people food doesn't mean they are the good guys. The US Republican Party is really big into volunteering with poor people but they're still capitalists.

[Reuben]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 01:22 AM
Soory for all the sputtering and misspellings in the last post. I've had a drink and the Palestine issue is one I have much passion for. It is a litmus test in the classic Lenninist sense, you support Palestine or you support Isreal and are not a revolutionary. Period. I hope the Isreali Communist Party dies in a bloody explosion. There is no such thing as an Isreali civilian. Marxism is conflict.
so the Israleies who have gone to prison for refusing to seve in the army are not civilians but legitiamte targets???
fucking twat

[travisdandy2000]

No the VERY small minority of Isrealis, who refuse to serve are no legitimate targets. Everyone else is, no such thing as an Isreali Civilian.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by Machiavelli X+Feb 4 2006, 01:59 PM--> (Machiavelli X @ Feb 4 2006, 01:59 PM) I love your sig Comrade RAF that is so true and funny do I have permission to put it in mine? [/b]
I doubt Stalin will care, so go right ahead.


travis not so very dandy2000
No the VERY small minority of Isrealis, who refuse to serve are no legitimate targets. Everyone else is, no such thing as an Isreali Civilian.

Perhaps there will be a place for you in the Palestinian parliament in the near future.

Another absurd reactionary won't do them any harm at all.

[travisdandy2000]

"reactionary" What exactly am I reacting to. The PFLP agrees with me, and they use human bombs for purely secular reasons. Strange the U.S. is the only place you find these so called revolutionaries, who don't actualy support any revolution anywhere in the world.

[Reuben]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 11:13 PM
No the VERY small minority of Isrealis, who refuse to serve are no legitimate targets. Everyone else is, no such thing as an Isreali Civilian.
well surely the minority who refuse to serve as well as the somewhat larger minority who are not of Army age negate your ridiculous statment that there is no such thing as an Israeli civilian

[travisdandy2000]

No it dosen't. If someone resist Isreal to the point of being imprisoned then they are allright, everyone else is a colonialist and fair game.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 05:17 PM
"reactionary" What exactly am I reacting to. The PFLP agrees with me, and they use human bombs for purely secular reasons. Strange the U.S. is the only place you find these so called revolutionaries, who don't actualy support any revolution anywhere in the world.
"Reactionary" does not simply mean "one who reacts".

Considering your views regarding this matter, it doesn't surprise me that you would be confused.

Just so you know, there is nothing even remotely "revolutionary" about the Palestinian movement.

[travisdandy2000]

anti-colonial struggles aren't revolutionary?

[amanondeathrow]

Just so you know, there is nothing even remotely "revolutionary" about the Palestinian movement.
What is not revolutionary about attempting to free one's homeland from Imperialist-sponsored racists?

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 08:46 PM
anti-colonial struggles aren't revolutionary?
Of course not.

The current power struggle occuring with these two fanatical groups has been happening in that region for a couple thousand years.

There is nothing "new" or "revolutionary" about it.

[amanondeathrow]

RAF

Of course not.

The current power struggle occuring with these two fanatical groups has been happening in that region for a couple thousand years.

There is nothing "new" or "revolutionary" about it.


You are again making the mistake of labeling all Palestinian activists as Islamic fanatics. This is simply not true and the fundamentalists make up a small percent of the Palestinian community, whereas the rest is made up of people simply trying to oust imperialists. Even if it was not revolutionary, surly it deserves our support.

[travisdandy2000]

AH HA! BAM! Got cha! A couple thousand years!? This aint the Hatfileds and the McCoys. The conflict between Isreal and Palestine is barely a generation old. There have not been Jews fighting Arabs for thousands of years! Palestine has been Arab for thousands of years on generation ago the zionist showed up and started the conflict.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2006, 09:09 PM
AH HA! BAM! Got cha! A couple thousand years!? This aint the Hatfileds and the McCoys. The conflict between Isreal and Palestine is barely a generation old. There have not been Jews fighting Arabs for thousands of years! Palestine has been Arab for thousands of years on generation ago the zionist showed up and started the conflict.
Silly young man.

Hostilities between Muslims and Jews reaches quite far back into history son; all the way to the 7th century with "Islam" proper.

Prior to that, Hebrew tribes of the region fought the very same people (who would later become muslim) all the way back to around 1300 BC, the date Judaism was most likely created.

Ah ha!

Bam!

Get an education!

[leftist resistance]

Originally posted by Comrade RAF+Feb 5 2006, 04:52 AM--> (Comrade RAF @ Feb 5 2006, 04:52 AM)
[email protected] 4 2006, 09:09 PM
AH HA! BAM! Got cha! A couple thousand years!? This aint the Hatfileds and the McCoys. The conflict between Isreal and Palestine is barely a generation old. There have not been Jews fighting Arabs for thousands of years! Palestine has been Arab for thousands of years on generation ago the zionist showed up and started the conflict.
Silly young man.

Hostilities between Muslims and Jews reaches quite far back into history son; all the way to the 7th century with "Islam" proper.

Prior to that, Hebrew tribes of the region fought the very same people (who would later become muslim) all the way back to around 1300 BC, the date Judaism was most likely created.

Ah ha!

Bam!

Get an education! [/b]
The Jews,Muslims and Christians were living together in peace before the Crusade.

You get an education
Bam! back to you

[travisdandy2000]

Hmm Professor, give me one example more then 75 years old of Jewish Arab conflict over Palestine. Just one, I'll bet you'll have to go back 'bout 2000 years.

[Soheran]

MARXISM-LENINISM CLEARLY DEMANDS THE UNCONDITONAL SUPPORT OF ALL NATIONAL LIBERATION STRUGGLES.

No, it doesn't, actually. And I am not a Marxist-Leninist.


You don't like Hamas fine! The Paleistian people do, and it's not your bussiness to tell them how to conduct their struggle.

It is every human's business to oppose the killing of innocent people and to support the cause of socialism.


If you don't support any national liberation struggle regardless of it's nature you are directly supporting the imperialist

The "anti-imperialist" label does not and has never justified atrocities. I oppose Hamas for the same reasons I oppose imperialism; it would be the height of hypocrisy to excuse their atrocities while condemning those of imperialism.


FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA PALESTINE MUST BE FREE! ONE STATE FREE AND ARAB!

So what do you do with all the Jews? Kill them all? Deport them?


I hope the Isreali Communist Party dies in a bloody explosion.

You are aware that the Israeli Communist Party is mostly Arab?

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by some kat Feb 4 2006+ 10:37 PM--> (some kat Feb 4 2006 @ 10:37 PM) The Jews,Muslims and Christians were living together in peace before the Crusade.

You get an education
Bam! back to you [/b]

What planet are you from? Skirmishes among the residents of this region, Jewish, Christian and Muslim, were daily occurences.

Just as they are daily occurances today.


Travisnotsodandy
Hmm Professor, give me one example more then 75 years old of Jewish Arab conflict over Palestine. Just one, I'll bet you'll have to go back 'bout 2000 years.

The rise of the Ottoman Empire in the late 13th century made Islam the dominant religion of the area.

Do you think the Jews and the Christians just "kept their mouths shut"?

Prior to Sultan Suleiman in around 1520, life for the Jews was pretty much shit.

Since you don't know shit about history I will also remind you that Palestine was under complete Arab rule from around 636 and lasted until the early 12th century.

During this period Muslim and Jewish "peace" was nothing more than a pipedream. As a matter of fact, Jewish and Muslim fighting was probably at it's worst during this period; especially considering that the Muslims completely obliterated of Judeas most sacred temples in order to erect the "Dome of the Rock".

Then of course we get to the crusades....

[Comrade Ben]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2006, 07:43 AM

FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA PALESTINE MUST BE FREE! ONE STATE FREE AND ARAB!


Why? So you can fight the Pakistani arabs, that you claim are not true, because they were once Indians? Or, pehaps, so you can, after claiming your own country, go to war with the Turkish arabs, because they are to westernized? No, my comrade, I stand for liberation, I stand for equality, I stand for justice, but until the Arabs select a Caliph, or unify in some other way, the reinstation of Palistine will do nothing. Even if all the Jews in the world were dead. Killed, lets say, at the hands of Allah's workers, do you really believe that the other Arabs of the world would stop fighting? No. Libya's Arabs would not gain from Israel's fall. They will not rejoice. And the Palistinan Arabs shall rejoice, for their homeland has been won. But, that will cause conflicts amongst the Arabs themselves. Can you not see how this cycle never ends? Can you not see the inevitable pain that it will cause?

[travisdandy2000]

The unification of the Arab people's into one nation would be a fatal blow to U.S. imperialism. The reason the West is so eager to back Isreal is because it makes such unification impossible as at least a portion of the land is occupied by European settlers. "Isreal" serves as a perpetual humilation to the natives of the M.E., and is a towering testament to the supremacy of white European culture over the Semites of Arabia.
As for your great knowledge of history, almost all Jews were sent into diaspora after the destruction of the second temple. They didn't hover on the borders waging gurellia warfare. There has been a small Jewish population in Palestine since the diaspora and before the invasion, consisiting of less then one percent of the population. The native Jews were chased out along with the Arabs because the Zionist feared they might sympathize too much with their former neighbors and freinds the Arab Muslims. Many of them made their way to the U.S. I can arragnge for you to contact these staunchly anti-zionist native Jews if you want.