Instant Christian Fucker-Upper

[Publius]

I just realized something:

How could God tell Adam and Eve it was wrong to eat from the tree of knowledge, if Adam and Eve had no concept of right and wrong?

In order to understand God's order, they would have to have already eaten from the tree.

This will instantly crush any Christian, or should. It blatently points out circular logic and God making a mistake.

I doubt I'm the first person to think this up, but fuck if it isn't great.

[which doctor]

I once heard my religion teacher talking about the "end of days". He was talking about how god was going to lift us up into the skies. He said that god couldn't lift up our souls, so he would give us back our bodies. I thought to myself, "if god is powerful enough to perform all these miracles, give us back our bodies, and bring us up to heaven, then he should be able to lift us up by just our souls without needing to bring our bodies."

Church history has many loopholes and contradictions, you just found one of them.

[Iroquois Xavier]

On the subject of contradictions, Did Jesus turn water into wine?Think, if the people at the wedding had drank all the wine they must have been pretty pissed. Drunk people say funky shit when they are drunk including claims that people turned water into wine. :lol:

[Vladislav]

I've never read the bible in my life so I don't know shit all about religion.THe only thing I know is that God has a beard .... or is it Jesus?

There have been heaps of debates about religion between my friends. They're damn funny and basically the religious dudes always seem to end up speechless.

[visceroid]

fuck man, thats some deep shit there. i might ask some christians.

[James]

on wine:
I've read that it was more watered down in the "olden days". Like with ale in england. It was drunk more as simply a druink (water being a bit crap), thus wasn't made primarily to get pissed on.


On adam and eve
in genisis god tells them to not eat from the tree: of good and bad knowledge.
It was a simple "order". Gensis doesn't say "God told them it was wrong to...". Just simply: Don't. Compare it to parent and young child.

Once the tree's fruit was consumed, then "morality" became an issue in humans.

(According to a literal interpretation of the old testament.)

[visceroid]

apparently god said

"You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

hmm, so i guess that argument doesnt work

[Iroquois Xavier]

it dont matter if it was watered down, u drink the place dry u going to get off your face. anyway most beer today is watered down crap but that dont stop people getting pissed! :D

[Comrade J]

Well they would not have known it was wrong to break God's command to eat from the tree. If they had no knowledge of right or wrong, then God's command would not have mattered, because they wouldn't have thought 'oh shit, best not eat from this tree because it would be wrong to break God's command.' So they listened instead to the talking snake, as one does :huh:
Huge flaw in the most flawed of all religions.

[Publius]

On adam and eve
in genisis god tells them to not eat from the tree: of good and bad knowledge.
It was a simple "order". Gensis doesn't say "God told them it was wrong to...". Just simply: Don't. Compare it to parent and young child.

Once the tree's fruit was consumed, then "morality" became an issue in humans.

(According to a literal interpretation of the old testament.)

I don't buy the logic here.

They couldn't have known that breaking the order was at all wrong.

They had no mental apperatus to prevent them from succumbing to the devil; none at all.

They didn't know it was wrong to break God's commandment, so how can they be punished for that?

[Comrade J]

Kind of what I just said. But yep, that's why Christianity is ridiculous; it's flawed from the very beginning.

[James]

Well that is if you take genisus to be a modern scientific document.

It is like opening a phone directory, and looking for a cake reciepe.








I don't buy the logic here.

They couldn't have known that breaking the order was at all wrong.

The concept of right/wrong is not mentioned in genisus untill after they eat from the tree. They had simply been told not to do something. A bit like a child is told not to run into a road. my not understand the right/wrong: but blah blah blah



They had no mental apperatus to prevent them from succumbing to the devil; none at all.

that is a different area of discussion.
And could possibly be explained by "free will". Or even fate.
Either way though, i think you are flogging a dead horse here mate.

[KC]

Well that is if you take genisus to be a modern scientific document.

It is like opening a phone directory, and looking for a cake reciepe.

So how do you know what to believe if it all isn't true then?



The concept of right/wrong is not mentioned in genisus untill after they eat from the tree. They had simply been told not to do something. A bit like a child is told not to run into a road. my not understand the right/wrong: but blah blah blah


A child knows right from wrong. Maybe vaguely but they at least have an idea of it. Adam and Eve didn't. God telling them not to do something doesn't mean anything to them.

[James]

So how do you know what to believe if it all isn't true then?

Its not a case of it being untrue. It is a case of reading poetry/metaphor/blah blah blah: as opposed to a C21st scientific journal article.



A child knows right from wrong. Maybe vaguely but they at least have an idea of it. Adam and Eve didn't. God telling them not to do something doesn't mean anything to them.


hence "a bit like".

[Comrade J]

You're missing the point.
If your father/boss/wife/whatever tells you not to do something, like "don't eat any of this pie, it's for dinner" and you obey what they tell you, you do so out of respect because you know it is wrong to do otherwise.
Therefore before they ate from this ridiculous magic tree, they would have had no idea whether it was 'right' or 'wrong' to disobey a command from God, as it was this very tree that apparently contained this information. So they would have no reason whatsoever to obey God, as they didn't know it was wrong to disobey God.
Whether you believe in this fairytale religion or not is irrelevant, any person who can think logically can spot the huge flaw in that.

[James]

Genisus says:


And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

So god doesn't say "it is wrong to eat from the tree": simply that adam shouldn't, because if he did he would die (fall).
This is an "age of innocence". There is no awareness of right and wrong; they simply be ("The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame")


Indeed it proceeds to say:



1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"

2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"

10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."

11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"

It is quite clear then that they were not expect to eat from the tree out of a concept of right and wrong (or at least, from adam and eves perspective. maybe from God's i suppose). They were simply told not to. They were in a state of ignorance if you like.

[KC]

Its not a case of it being untrue. It is a case of reading poetry/metaphor/blah blah blah: as opposed to a C21st scientific journal article.


Okay, in that case my question isn't much different. How do you know what to believe as true and what to believe as metaphor/poetry/etc...?

[James]

So just to link this back:


How could God tell Adam and Eve it was wrong to eat from the tree of knowledge, if Adam and Eve had no concept of right and wrong?

In order to understand God's order, they would have to have already eaten from the tree.

Well perhaps their inability to understand right and wrong inevitably led to God's order being broken.
As genisus says: they clearly did not understand God's order fully; as they broke it.

[James]

Okay, in that case my question isn't much different. How do you know what to believe as true and what to believe as metaphor/poetry/etc...?

Ah well that is an interesting question. I think a major consideration that one must make, is that it was all written way before our scientific age (not denying they had forms of science: but obviously, it wasn't like our concept today). So i think it would be a mistake to interpret anything, such as the creation, as a modern day scientific article (no doubt our science will seem greatly flawed in 200 years time: so i don't think we can take our perception as the "right one").

On many occasions it is clear what the book is. Songs of solomon is a song/poem for example.

But i see your point. Personally i have not read the old testement in any great depth. So arn't really in a position of knowledge that will allow me to answer your question fully.

[chaval]

well i dont htink right and wrong had anything to do with it. they were told not to do it cause God said so, not cause it was "wrong" though to us it is obvious that anything forbidden by someone is forbidden cause it is deemed "wrong" think of it this way, a little kid doesnt always understand why some actions are wrong but they are told not to do them anyways.
also, adam and eve are not to be taken so literally, its just an allegory so.....doesnt matter?

[KC]

Ah well that is an interesting question. I think a major consideration that one must make, is that it was all written way before our scientific age (not denying they had forms of science: but obviously, it wasn't like our concept today). So i think it would be a mistake to interpret anything, such as the creation, as a modern day scientific article (no doubt our science will seem greatly flawed in 200 years time: so i don't think we can take our perception as the "right one").

On many occasions it is clear what the book is. Songs of solomon is a song/poem for example.

But i see your point. Personally i have not read the old testement in any great depth. So arn't really in a position of knowledge that will allow me to answer your question fully.

But isn't your holy book the word of god?

Also, I was asking how you personally knwo what to believe in. Not just anyone in general, I want to hear how you choose what to take as truth and that to take as false.

[James]

But isn't your holy book the word of god?

I certainly believe that jesus did exist: i believe in the message of the gospels (4 different books about the same thing), for various reasons. On "logical" historical grounds (for example regarding the problem of how to explain the growth of a sect that died blah blah blah, see john young, "Christianity", ch. 3 for an example of a variety of reasons), and also because the gospels "make sense" to me. Of course the latter is a highly personal reason.

Remember though i'm not trying to convert you or anything. I'm just answering your question regarding why i believe what i believe.

I would like to point out though that i do not actually consider myself a christian. Even though i think the gospels are "right": i do not make a massive effort to follow it. Why? Well i'm not sure actually. I think it is probably a flaw in my character/will. Suffice to say, i'm don't actively follow christ.

The perception that the entire bible is the word of god is not terribly helpful. Sure some christians think it to be so, and others think it not to be so.
My refusal to therefore agree with the idea that it is all the direct word of god, is hardly controversial.


Also, I was asking how you personally knwo what to believe in. Not just anyone in general, I want to hear how you choose what to take as truth and that to take as false.

My main concern is simply with the gospels. I think there is more than enough there to worry my pritty little head about.
Indeed i fail to even live up to those teachings.
If i someday do decide/become able, to follow the gospel completely, then i will probably further my approach to the bible.

[James]

what i really don't understand is:
Genesis 1:26, and 2:8.

[Hate Is Art]

If God can do anything, can he create a rock so big that he cannot move it?

[James]

or destroy "himself"?

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

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